Really distinctive plagal cadence

[Goldsac]

I've always heard this really distinctive cadence sound, and now I'm noticing it's just everywhere. It's a IV-I plagal cadence, which is played IV-iv-I (eg A-Am-E). The melody is a chromatic run that goes from a major 3rd, to a minor 3rd in the IV chord, and ends up at the 5th of the I chord.

Now, if you don't know what I'm talking about, you may wanna check that out cause it's a pretty cool trick (though cliche if abused if you ask me). You can hear it in NOFX- The Decline (He's got his, and I've got Mine, meet the decline) or KISS - God Gave Rock & Roll to You (in the near-acapella part)

But if you do know what I'm talking about, what I wanna know is: does that cadence have a name at all?? I mean, it's so distinctive you would think so, but I've never seen anything written about it before.

[UKRuss]

I know the one you mean, I don't know if it has a specific name but hey!

Really Distinctive Plagal Cadence, or RDPC, will do for me:D

From now on, we will call it just that.

[ashc]

Hi Goldsac and welcome to IBreathe. Don't forget to do an new member announcement post !

If you check out the strictly threads theres one buried in there called strictly borrowed that features this cadence in C (F-Fm-C).

http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9253

As noted in there this appears in quite a few Beatles songs (Dear Prudence and Nowhere Man are given there as examples by the esteemed member MattBlack850).

Does this cadence have a name? it probably does, but I don't know it. Somewhere I have an article on cadences by Dominic Pedlar (who has written books analysing all the Beatles compositions) if I can find that I'll see if this one is named. In the meantime one of the theory experts here might be able to help more than me.

[phantom]

Hey welcome to iBreathe!!

Interessting thing!
As ashc said, having a new member introduction would be nice. ;)

And, as ashc said (again) i see it as a V | iv | I progression - plagal cadence with a borrowed chord from the relativ minor scale.

To make it more comlicated you could say it is a minor progression with a plagal cadence and a picardy third in the tonic... but we won't make it complicated, right.

As for a specific name.. i don't know (which made my whole post sensless since that was your question). :D

I don't think there is one though.. at least i've never seen one. It just flows nicely as you mentioned.

:cool: Keep posting!

[ashc]

Ah, but the Picardy third can only end a piece ? :D

Somehow we got from God Gave Rock 'n' Roll to you to a device favoured by Mozart..

EDIT : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picardy_third
My memory was wrong it's more baroque than classical period and you can use it where you like. Anyway, this is not what we are talking about here :)

[phantom]

The picardy third does not necessarily have to be found at the end of a section — it can be found at any perfect cadence although it may also occur as the final chord in a plagal cadence. There is no such device as the "Inverted" picardy third, where an expected major chord is replaced by its minor equivalent. (The final sections of some works, for example the first symphony of Samuel Barber certainly end in a way that strongly suggests and then belies an ending in major, but this is not the same thing, even dramatically using a Picardy third before the end of the work as part of the dramatic process, but this is not what an inverted Picardy third would be.)

Quoted of this cool page: answers.com (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Picardy+third&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&linktext=Tierce%20de%20Picardie)

In a Pop-Rock situation "sections" are more shrunk together i guess. The picardy third however does what it is supposed to do - add interesst and a kind of "bittersweetness". In my opinion.
Might be true (as ashc said :D) that the perfect terminology of picardy third mostly refers to the ending of a piece or longer section and not in a rock-riff context.

------------------------------------

EDIT: Oh yes.. we are off topic. :eek:
AMEN

[mattblack850]

Ah, but the Picardy third can only end a piece ?

And there was I thinking that Picardy Captained the Enterprise!:D

As mentioned, lots of Beatles tracks utilised the IV-iv-I cadence as well as:- Oasis' 'Don't look back in anger' and 10 cc's 'I'm not in Love', to name a couple more.

As for a name for it, how about Nigel???

seriously though, there is a good article on cadences here:-
http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory22.htm

But a summary of it is:-

cadences, a progression of chords at the end of, or the end of a section in a musical work:-

Perfect cadence
full close
final cadence
full close cadence
complete cadence
some do not consider a cadence to be completely perfect unless the melody ends on the tonic and both chords are in root position
These are authentic cadences
for example, V-»I

true plagal
church cadence
amen cadence
complete cadence
These are authentic cadences
for example, IV-»I

plagal cadence
see note below about 'half' and 'half-close'
These are authentic cadences
for example, I-»IV-»I

imperfect cadence
half close cadence
half cadence
semi-cadence
'half close' and 'half' are sometimes applied to 'plagal' cadences which are authentic but in which the chord is not in root position, or the melody does not end on the tonic
These are not authentic cadences
for example, II-»V

interrupted cadence
deceptive cadence
false cadencenot authenticfor example, V-»VIphrygian cadence
a special type of 'half' cadence that only occurs in minor keys
These are not authentic cadences
for example, iv6-»V

Personally I think it would be covered by the second set.
True, Church, Amen or Complete.

[Goldsac]

Hey thanks for all the contributions folks!

I've noticed Picardy 3rds before, but I never knew that trick had a name..very cool.

As for the new member intro, I'll post one in the next little while (gotta get some school stuff outta the way first..and by some I mean a LOT). But I post it in the new members forum obviously?

Also, I just found a different way of thinking of it on wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backdoor_Progression

they call it the backdoor progression..and say that it can be considered an interrupted II-V progression which would end on bIII, but instead is interrupted to return to the tonic. In this case they have add a bVII7 chord from the parallel minor like so: IV-iv(7)-bVII7-I. I put the 7 in brackets for the iv chord because it's only really necessary if you want to go to bVII...otherwise you can just go straight from vi-I.

What's even cooler was where I found the Backdoor Progression in wikipedia...check out this link that's just chock full o' musical goodies (if you haven't already):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Musical_techniques

[Los Boleros]

I've always heard this really distinctive cadence sound, and now I'm noticing it's just everywhere. It's a IV-I plagal cadence, which is played IV-iv-I (eg A-Am-E). The melody is a chromatic run that goes from a major 3rd, to a minor 3rd in the IV chord, and ends up at the 5th of the I chord.
Every instance of these chords that I have ever heard, were in the middle of a progression, and not at the end. a common ending for the IV-iv-I would be a V such as:

In the key of C

F-Fm-C-Gsus-G

In this case the cadence is called a half cadence.

[ashc]

Checked that article and Dominic Pedlar calls the IV-iv-I the "Plagal Minor Miracle" - tongue in cheek though, he more seriously describes it as a modified plagal cadence.

Personally, I think we often see this as the end of a progression.

[Julian]

yeah it a normal plagal cadence, with a iv substitution from minor. its a modal chord swap, like using a minor v chord in major, which sounds oh so cool.

and maybe im wrong, but isnt a picardy 3rd when you are in minor and the last chord of the piece is a major I chord? maybe im wrong, dont remember.

heres a progression with a bunch of subs

Cmaj7, Gm7, C7, Fmaj7, Bb7, Cmaj7, A7, Fmaj, Fm6, Cmaj9(#11)

cmaj7 is ok tonally, the gm7 is from the minor, but really is part of a secondary dominant cadence to Fmaj7. the Bb7 is that backdoor-dominant you were talking about, A7 is a secondary dom. Then the fmaj7 to fm6 shows a iv chord sub. then the last one is just cool. all based on modal chord swapping. not bad for scales used in chant.

[cardello]

minor plagal cadence. makes sense, no?

[SeattleRuss]

Mattblack850,

You forgot one cadence......this one, by men in formation:

Drill Instructor:..."Ah don' know but ah been told....."

Cadets:...:..."Ah don' know but ah been told....."

Drill Instructor:......"Eskimo ***** is mighty cold!....."

Cadets:...:..."Eskimo ***** is mighty cold!....."

[mattblack850]

Mattblack850,

You forgot one cadence......this one, by men in formation:

Drill Instructor:..."Ah don' know but ah been told....."

Cadets:...:..."Ah don' know but ah been told....."

Drill Instructor:......"Eskimo ***** is mighty cold!....."

Cadets:...:..."Eskimo ***** is mighty cold!....."

I missed one??? Damn, how did that happen then???:D