"Groove"

[Spino]

One thing that does'nt seem to get talked about a lot on this Forum is Groove!!!
I've been doin some recording at home ,working on a new song layout and after spending days personally breaking new ground using sporadic 1/16 notes in a solid bass line which sat in nicely with the drums I then added three sparse guitar parts, all sounds fine but I noticed after several playbacks that the groove progresses nicely but does'nt really sit until about the last 32 bars ,then the song ends. I was wondering how musicians get a really deep groove goin' from 1234.I think we all know when we're playin "in the pocket " but to "drop in" right from the beginning seems impossible because the momentum is'nt there.I was wondering how others cope with this ? :cool:

[silent-storm]

set a metronome at a medium speed and choose 3 or 4 notes. Repeat those notes along with the metronome for 10-15 minutes. Eventually you will get very in tune with what you are doing to the point where you can start to make very small corrections to where your note placement is. Lots of time the 1st beat of a bar is a little late and the 2nd is a little early. Think of the beat as a large piece of time and you can place the note anywhere from the very front, to the middle, to the very back of the beat. If you keep going, every now and then you will play a note and you wont hear the metronome click. That's what being locked in is all about. You can groove when you can do this consistantly without hearing the metronome.

a little each day goes a long way. Also, this might not go over too well with some people, but it's important to also practice without a metronome. It helps you develope a more natural feel.

[Madaxeman]

I just got a CD called "Spread Love Like Wildfire" from a band called Down to the Bone. The first track on the CD starts with a fairly simple bass line that sets the groove for the whole song. I haven't got it up to full speed yet, but it is a good exercise, and it grooves right away.
Not sure if this is what you mean, but you might want to listen to it and see if it does what you are talking about.

[Spino]

I think I'm gonna resurrect this cuz it got buried far too quickly,
and I think I was misunderstood or I did'nt make myself clear
enough.
What I was actually talking about was getting a deep groove
right from the beginning of the song.What sort of time lapse
is there before you're "in" ? 2 ,4,8,16 bars, ? Is there a steady
build up ? I think so and the groove really starts happening
in the middle of the song ,cuz the momentum gathers.
Any comments ? Or is this too obscure ?

[forgottenking2]

IMO Groove is simply rhythmic interaction. When a band is "tight" they are able to "groove" and it feels real good... come to think of it I don't really have words to explain it... it's just something you feel... someone? Help?

[jade_bodhi]

What I was actually talking about was getting a deep groove
right from the beginning of the song.What sort of time lapse
is there before you're "in" ? 2 ,4,8,16 bars, ? Is there a steady
build up ? I think so and the groove really starts happening
in the middle of the song ,cuz the momentum gathers.
Any comments ? Or is this too obscure ?

I see what you're getting at. It's true that you can't begin a song with a groove; or better stated, the listener can't hear the groove immediately at the start of a tune. It usually takes a few measures for the listener to "get it." I think to establish a groove, the band needs to take the changes through one complete cycle. Part of feeling a groove is being able to anticipate where the rhythm is going (even as other parts of the tune are being introduced fresh).

Sometimes groove seems to result after a subtle change in the established rhythm. I'd say there are no hard and fast rules. You know it when you feel it and what is felt may vary from person to person. Some people have no taste for music that has groove. But ultimately, I think the band has to cycle through the changes in the composition once before anyone, listener or player, can really get into the groove.

[warmflash]

I read Spino's thread and deep groove and have two things to add.

1. If you want to groove right out of the gate, record your song beginning with Guitar and Click or Keyboards and Click first. Map out the entire song starting with the guitar or keyboard. If you record to a drum loop or a pre-programmed drum part right out of the gate, you sometimes end up servicing the drum part as opposed to servicing the song. And if you're servicing the drum part, you invariably cut off all manner of subtle groove options. Also, by recording your guitar or keyboard part to a click, you are forced to be precise and accurate in terms of tempo. You can hide a lot of sloppy playing behind a drum kit.

Once you have the basic guitar or keys part. Then look at adding a drum part. Which you can play into song in real time. Start with just the kick and snare. Keep it simple. You can write your drum parts later as the song evolves.

2. Unless you were a child prodigy Shino, groove is something you're going to have to study and practise. You'll need a metronome, and some time. And please read the following exercise, as described by musician - bassist -- Carol Kaye. She's been teaching and recording for 40 years. And may well be the most recorded electric bassist in history.

Yes, this is the same Carol Kaye who played on THEME FROM SHAFT, GOOD VIBRATIONS, THEME FROM MISSION IMPOSSIBLE. She's performed on over 10,000 sessions. She knows her groove.

If you follow Carol's exercise, you will quickly develop a pretty good sense of DEEP GROOVE. The exercise is written for Bass players, however, it is easily converted into something a guitarist or keyboard player can work with.

>>>>Nothing in music is more important than feel, and you don't get good
feeling without a great sense of time. Time was continually discussed back in the 50s....Frank Butler, drummer with great time, ditto Billy Higgins, and Bill Goodwin.....their main asset? Great time. Of course they were great great drummers, chops, technique, they were absolutely the greatest in LA jazz....but their main asset according to everyone was "great time".

So many times, my pro-students (and even the amateur about to turn pro)
come to me and say "the musicians I play with just don't understand the
importance of good time".

They have cause for alarm and complaints out there - fine time is not given the respect and attention music deserves. I always train my students to play with great time and they soon learn to love it, and love their own playing....and get big compliments because of their great time-sense too. Anybody can have show-off chops, and even read well and play all the styles well, but it doesn't mean a thing without a great time-sense, a great groove to move the band and music with.

Please, remind your teachers out there to make sure to teach the importance of working with a metronome to get a good sense of time.

Most people are *not* born with good time, no, but anyone can acquire a good sense of groove-time (unless they're simply not talented at all, once in awhile there might be one here and there) by practicing with the elec. metronome (no ticky-tockys, it has to be electric with a good loud "click" sound, the non-electrics are not in good-time).

It must beat on the 2nd and 4th beats (find that by counting 1-1-2-3-4 with the click on the 2 and 4, like a drummer's backbeat - it'll sound like 1 and 3 at first until you turn it around like that) for effective spaces left up to the bass player. Be sure to practice for long period on one particular pattern.....you'll start to waver within 1-2 minutes, stick with it, lock in and work through the wavering times until it feels great, you'll know when you're really grooving...it's a very finely hewed thing you'll experience. Anyone who plays music pretty good usually is capable of getting a fine sense of time.

Guitarists too need to acquire good time-groove sense for their rhythm and especially for solo work. Jazz musicians in the 50s ALL knew this, no matter if it was a sax player, drummer, pianist or ? -- they worked with the elec. metronome beating on 2 and 4, it was talked about, and instantly noticed if "someone didn't have a good sense of fine time"....they were NOT considered musicians then in every sense of the word according to the way fine jazz musicians felt back in the 50s. I'd say ditto more or less for the rock and roll altho' it's much looser sometimes in rock....doesn't seem to matter as much (but it should!), and especially for soul records, good time was crucial.

With the 8/8 doubletime patterns (funk), you need to at first work with the metronome beating on the 1-an-2-an-3-an-4-an (8 beats to the bar) to get your inside meters correct on the feel of the upbeat 16th patterns and complex rhythm things.

For those 16th rhythms, put the metronome on every quarter and play with it that way. Next, try putting the metronome on the "an" of every beat (all the upbeats) 4 to the bar (1) AN (2) AN (3) AN (4) AN.

Then finally when you have your mixed 16th patterns pretty well mastered, do the final thing of putting it on 2 and 4 with the 16ths. That's tough at first to learn to groove with that on 2 and 4 (chicka-chicka chicka-chcka chicka-chicka chicka-chica etc.), but you'll know it when you do have it. The metronome sounds like "it's" grooving - you don't have to work at staying in-time, feels like you're floating. Then you know you're in like Flynn.

Times when not to practice with the metronome: try not to read much music with the metronome on, altho' sometimes I encourage my students to do that, but just rarely. And don't do it when you're very tired...if you think that music will wake you up some, fine, but you'll get better benefit from time-practice when you are more awake to start with.

After you've practiced a lot of different styles of patterns, different
tempos, etc. and feel like after 2-3 days of 1-2 hour each or more, that you're "in", then stop. You don't need to practice all the time with the metronome to keep your great sense of time. You have the groove.

Just practice once in awhile with it then 2-3x a month, or if you've had a particularly bad night with a drummer (or someone else, some pianists are notorious for their rushing the beat, some guitar players too, even sax players -- depends on the age and experience too), then get your groove-center back by some brushup practice with the metronome after playing with them.

Your time can go out after a night of pushing and pulling the beat, trying to smooth it out to keep other musicians in your band grooving together, helping them like the bass player sometimes has to do....it's hard work - you can't enjoy your playing as much always being on-guard like that, it's constant work, and you'll pay for it later -- so that's when to practice your time sense again.

I've also been asked about practicing with a rhythm machine. I think a
little of that is OK - and sometimes it's a lot of fun, but don't count on it to help you get your time-sense together. The reason? You need space on 1 and 3 to do that...YOUR space and if something is on that space, then you're just "playing with" that object - much like playing
with a recording (with no communication between players), and not
developing your own sense of time-groove at all with your own space. You need the empty space of 1 and 3 to do that, nothing else will do it like that. And when you got it, they can't get enough of you. The demand will be high for work, for any kind of playing. You have the "feel" then. And you'll make the band music really sound and feel great also. It's as different as day and night.

[Spino]

This is not one of those snotty-nosed Bass Player v Guitar Player comments is it and Yes I do know who Carol Kaye is . Thing is ,you sorta missed the point of what I was trying to say and since then I discovered a few weaknesses of my own which which as they say "mattafix," otherwise the advice of Carol Kaye is sound but I'd worked that out a long time ago !..........................................
.....Yeah Man! I did'nt like your reply either !

[warmflash]

" Thing is ,you sorta missed the point of what I was trying to say and since then I discovered a few weaknesses of my own which which as they say "mattafix," otherwise the advice of Carol Kaye is sound but I'd worked that out a long time ago !..............."

If you'd worked out tempo and groove issues ( long ago ), you wouldn't have to wait until bar 32 to be locked and loaded groove-wise, you would be, in effect, locked and loaded right out of the gate on beat one, bar one.

Nevertheless, there's a lot to had by going back and reviewing tempo and groove exercises no matter what level of musician you may be.

It is interesting to note, pianist Dr John arrives at his gigs 6 hours before he is required to be there, in order to practise, rehearse and get his groove together.

Charlie Parker would arrive three or four hours before a scheduled recording session for the same reason.

Anyway, the point is, a little ongoing work on groove only makes you groovier.

Lastly, what is " mattafix? "

And when can i get one!

lols.

Cheers

WF.

[mcmurray]

What is wrong with a mechanical metronome? I've been using one for years with very good results. Should I go electric?

[greyface]

This isn't gonna make any sense at first, but if you think about it, it will.
Learn to groove without playing. Get your groove going when you're washing the dishes, or driving to the store. In silence.

[mattblack850]

To hear some stuff that 'grooves' from the off try listening to some African guitar based stuff such as Franco (Don't be put off by the O.K. Jazz in the title!!!), The Super Rail Band or Remy Ongala. These guys groove in bucketloads!!!

[joeyd929]

Don't forget the Funk brothers.