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MetallicTheatre
03-01-2003, 01:48 AM
When i began guitar, I had myslef convinced Carlos Santana was the best guitarist alive, but now I've come to realise he is not so good. He does not use any special techniques or speed and only really uses extend pentatonics. He doesnt write the songs either. I just wanted to hear your opinions on this matter. Does he deserve all this money and fame for limited skill and a nice sounding effect or am I completely wrong and I need to be enlightened?

Regards Aaron

B A Stone
03-01-2003, 02:25 AM
Santana isn't a "shredder". Does that mean he sucks? No.

Carlos Santana has INCREDIBLE feel and tone.

Saying Santana isn't good is kinda like saying BB King isn't good.

Guitar solos are not the only way to judge a player. You need to listen to the whole package. Composition speaks for itself. Not all guitar players want to impress people with their lightning licks. They are just making their own music.

What makes Santana good is that he is "Santana".

There is no other.

MetallicTheatre
03-01-2003, 02:37 AM
I completely understand that just because he is not a shredder doesnt mean hes crap, but what im saying is that he never shows more skill than a person whos been playing for 2 or 3 years, and he maked millions out of it. He just has a nice lead effect. I think thats all there is to him, and i just want to no why people like him. Sorry for disagreeing with you.

Regards aaron

snufeldin
03-01-2003, 03:59 AM
Somebody who has been playing 2 or 3 years would not be able to come close to Santana. Obviously you're looking at the amount of notes played instead of the actual notes. THis is what I have deduced from you're comment concerning "skill" at least.

Also, I think he does write music... maybe you've only heard the pop stuff. But his music with his band is really grooving. Anyway his music moves me most of the time... and isn't that what it's all about.

And by the way, people spend most of their lives striving to get that "nice lead effect".

MetallicTheatre
03-01-2003, 04:16 AM
that could be true, i have only heard the supernatural album and seen him play on the dvd and his new stuff, i dont really know much else, but he does not use any complicated scales or time signatures, or maybe it just seems that none of his music is complicated, thnx 4 your feedback.

regards
Aaron

PS. Can you suggest any songs to download to get a better understanding of how he is good?

EricV
03-01-2003, 09:35 AM
Carlos Santana has been around for many, many years. He has influenced quite a few players with his style of playing.
No, heīs usually not playing scales at light-speed or using very complicated time-signatures, but:

- he has got a great sense of phrasing, and a very special tone. You can recognize him instantly. And good phrasing and tone is something that one canīt develop in 2-3 years.
- He did an amazing record with John McLaughlin many years ago... "A Love Supreme". McLaughlin was considered one of the fastest guitarists back then, but it worked great when they played together, because Santana showed his sense for melody and his great tone.
- He sure brought the Latin-style music to the attention of many players.
- Measured by todayīs shred-standards, he might not be a very fast player, but he still is playing very tasteful solos, and when I watched a Santana concert on TV last year, I was impressed by the groove, the fun and vibe of that music.
- Other players from that era, the "legnedary guys", like Clapton, Jimmy Page etc. might not be the fastest guys in the world, but... if they wouldnīt have been around, maybe none of us would play the guitar these days. Just like Page, Beck, Clapton etc., Santana was and still is a huge influence to guitarists. They took what those guys played and added new things, increased speed, added new techniques...

Eric

Bizarro
03-01-2003, 11:29 PM
but he does not use any complicated scales or time signatures, or maybe it just seems that none of his music is complicated

I think it's time to invest in some old Santana albums! He really was a pioneer for guitar instrumental music in the 60's and 70's. Plus the latin rhythms can be incredibly complex to play with the same feel that he employs. If you listen to some old stuff, you should be able to hear lots of unorthodox scales.

He's a great musician, songwriter, guitar player, singer, etc... He must be fairly smart, too, because he was able to revive his pop-music career and sell 10+ million albums with Supernatural!!

He has a greatest hits album that came out before Supernatural. That might be a good place to start exploring some classic Santana material. Don't give up on him yet!

szulc
03-01-2003, 11:32 PM
You need to learn the concept of "FEEL".
It doesn't matter how fast you are or how flawless your technique, all that really matters is your "FEEL".
If you don't believe me listen to 'NITRO' then listen to any SRV (Albert Collins Or Albert King or Buddy Guy) then tell me which you LIKED better not which you thought was the most astonishing.

snufeldin
03-01-2003, 11:38 PM
szulc,

I recently listened to some nitro stuff because the guitarist was rated the fastest in GuitarOne. It was absolutely horrible... Gave me a huge headache... Who wants to have technique like that if you play crap? It makes you wonder if that guitarist was ever into playing blues?

One more question: Why does it seem like all those super fast guys play minor/evil sounding songs?

EricV
03-01-2003, 11:45 PM
LOL... "Nitro"... that reminds me, Thorsten will jam with Michael Angelo at the "Musikmesse" in Frankfurt next Saturday... that should be a blast. Unfortunately I wonīt get to watch it because I wonīt be there on Sat.

Anyway, yeah, people like Jeff Beck, Vaughan and others have a tremendous amount of feel and phrasing in their playing, which makes up for high speed stuff.
Some players combine both... Joe Satriani has some great chops, but he also can play very emotional stuff ( listen to "Rubina" from the second CD of "Time Machine", or "Crying" from "The Extremist", or "Love Thing" or... ).
Killer chops arenīt worth ANYTHING if you ainīt got a sense for melodies and some feel in your playing... phrasing, tone, and just that feel that you canīt simulate with Powertab :)

I know that it might sound weird to listen to all those old records today, since the sounds are a bit... well, old-fashioned etc. ( no digital recording, no higain-amps, tapping and sweeping werenīt part of many players repertoires back then ), but check out this stuff:

"Cause We Have Ended As Lovers" or "Diamond DUst" by Jeff Beck ( from "Blow To Blow" )... great phrasing, lotsa feel, and "...Lovers" has influenced MANY MANY players, especially when it comes to playing ballads ( Vai, Satch, Vinnie Moore... )

"Little Wing" or "Voodoo Chile" by Jimi Hendrix

"Little Wing" by Stevie Ray Vaughan

"Holy Mother" by Eric Clapton ( pretty much a one-note-solo )

"Samba Pa Ti" and "Europa (Earth's Cry Heaven's Smile)" by Carlos Santana ( Steve Vai cites the latter song as his biggest influence to play instrumental music )

Eric

MetallicTheatre
03-02-2003, 01:20 AM
Thanks for your feedback,
szulc i tried what you said and listened to some Michael Angelo and some SRV but I honestly liked michael angelos stuff better, but i understand completely what you mean, SRV is a smoother player.
Snufeild you should listen to speed kills, its absolutley incredible and sounds nice, well it does to me neways.

Regards Aaron

szulc
03-02-2003, 01:32 AM
Michael plays technically flawlessly but the point of music is to make you feel something not be in awe of someone's technical prowess. Listen to any Sonny Rollin Sax solo or "Daydream " by Robin Trower from the live album, or Jeff Beck' s rendition or "Goodbye Pork Pie Hat". If this stuff doesn't move you emotionally there is nothing anyone can do to help you understand.
You may be doomed to be a strictly technical player.
Which if you really like Michael Angelo better then you should be ok with.

EricV
03-02-2003, 09:47 AM
Well, sometimes a focus changes... I was going through a phase where all that mattered was speed... I was practising nothing but that, and of course I only listened to records that fit to that.
It was a ridiculous time :)

But before and after that, I enjoyed listening to great phrasing, liked to hear the "player" himself, his feel and emotion. One of the reasons for that might have been that I was trying to put that into my own playing as well.
Itīs a tough thing to TRY something like this, because usually that should happen automatically. But it also helped to TRY, to remind myself to stop THINKING SO MUCH.

At the same time, I never really understood ( shall I say "accepted" the whole "speed-vs.-emotion"-discussion ). Because ( OMG, is this turning into one of my rants ? I hope not ) I heard lots of emotion in the playing of "shredders" like Yngwie, Satch, Vai and Vinnie Moore, too.
And IMHO it takes a lot of love and patience to work on your chops, and thatīll eventually come through when you play.

Whether itīs Jeff Beck playing "...Lovers" or "People Get Ready" or Satch doing "Rubina" ( when he starts to play the distorted lines in that live-version... or that divebomb in "Time Machine" ) I do hear an emotion, so I never subscribed to the "If ya play fast, you play without feel" type statement.
Steve Morse said it best when he translated the "This guy only plays fast and has no feel"-statement into "I canīt play fast" :)

Well, to sum it up, it might take a while to explore the music and playing of those guys like Beck and Santana, but hey, no pressure :)
Eric

szulc
03-02-2003, 12:07 PM
I didn't use Yngwie or Satch as an example because they are also great 'feel' players. I chose the most blatently feelingless but techncally flawless thing I could think of.

EricV
03-02-2003, 12:13 PM
I know... I wasnīt referring to you with my reply.
I was rather referring to those general discussions you tend to see on other boards or hear at guitar shops or jam sessions...
Eric

szulc
03-02-2003, 12:27 PM
I guess some people are 'FEELING' deaf just like being 'TONE' deaf.
So my point was, if our reader can't tell the difference there is nothing that can be done to help him understand.

MetallicTheatre
03-03-2003, 05:44 AM
you guys have me a bit mistaken.........i luv santana and SRV etc theyre music is incredible, but when i learn it, it does not seem to be any where near as hard as vai yngwie etc.

I dont know much nitro, but i have a video on my computer of Michael Angelo shredding the fastest stuff ive ever seen and still sounded absolutely great.

The clip is called speed kills if ne1 is interested

Aaron

Schooligo
03-03-2003, 08:03 AM
OK, so it appears that quite a few of the question threads lately are threads with no definitive answer meaning they are highly subjective(ie. who's the best guitarist, most overrated, etc.)

IMHO I think these kind of questions as well as many others if nothing else make for interesting reading especially when people who have studied these specific Musicians &/or their personal style, give insight into these Musicians.

Personally I like all styles of music, all kinds of songs, & various levels of musicianship, as I feel I can &/or have learned from pretty much all of them.
(i.e. a standard three chord progression can "move me" & a brilliant technical display can also "move me".)

But there are some parts of this thread that are especially important & bear repeating:
namely that a Musician incorporates into their playing a sense for melodies, feel, phrasing, rhythm & groove, emotion, tone, etc.

this can be applied to all styles of music, all levels of musicianship, etc.
& more often than not will give you insight into musicians who do "move you" & inspire you!

metallibeast
03-03-2003, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by MetallicTheatre

I dont know much nitro, but i have a video on my computer of Michael Angelo shredding the fastest stuff ive ever seen and still sounded absolutely great.

The clip is called speed kills if ne1 is interested

Aaron

Talking about fast...you might be interested in this thread about Fransesco Farreri. (http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=532&highlight=Francesco+Fareri) :D

-Beast

szulc
03-03-2003, 11:35 AM
The speed kills thing is TECHNICALLY flawless, but do you ;FEEL; anything form it or in it, other than astonishment?
The first two notes of 'The Sky is Crying' make me 'FEEL' something. The other thing is that 'Speed Kills' is obviously all worked out (maybe written down), not improvised. Even if I couldn't tell this from the video, I know it is since I saw Michaelanglo twice at a clinic in Huntsville and he played this exactly the same as you see it in the video both times.

I want to hear improvisied music, that contains emotion, not some testosterone laden display of technical prowess. I am not saying you can't be fast and have emotion or improvise (listen to Shawn Lane or Yngwie), I am just saying that the purpose of music is to be inspiring not awe inspiring.

Yes on a technical level what vai does is more difficult than what Santana or SRV does/did.
What do you consider a complicated scale or time signature?

I hear Major scale HM and MM in Santana most of the time and his band is usually playing some kind of polyrhythm.
Yes SRV stayed mostly in the blues scale but said an awful lot with this limited vocabulary.

snufeldin
03-03-2003, 11:17 PM
szulc,

I'm going to disagree with you a little on the improvised thing. I think that a piece can be completely worked out before hand and carry the same emotion. However, I think this applies to less guitar powered songs. My example of this is any Radiohead song, but I think you were referring to guitar solos.

Anyway I watched the speed kills thing (Michael Angelo in a Goldsgym shirt was absolutely hilarious) and it didn't impress me. The part that really disgust me was the stupid thing where he moves his hand around like crazy hammering on and off.... plus it sounded like **** (I also watched another video of his and he did the exact same thing... hitting the exact same notes). Now I'm not dissing cute little guitar tricks (SRV did a lot of that), but the Michael Angelo thing sounded terrible. When SRV did it is sounded like he was playing regularly.

However, I might be very biased against Michael Angelo because I've heard so much stuff like that I'm not impressed at all by technical prowess. And MetallicaTheatre: Michael Angelo obviously has no "feel", however you keep mentioning Steve Vai and Yngwie. Those guys have feel. I used to play fast stuff a lot, but it sounded really bad. Now I've focused on playing notes I want and it is sounding a lot better. But developing speed is a very good tool, I still throw in that fast stuff (if it fits into the solo).

I have a questions for you MetallicTheatre: Which do you like better Michael Angelo or SRV.

szulc
03-04-2003, 12:02 AM
I wasn't saying that worked out stuff can be emotional.
I just like improvised stuff better, because the person is taking chances and (if it is good) not falling down.
Playing it safe is not as beautiful because the pretty things come from improvisation and even mistakes. Worked out stuff just sounds like worked out stuff, it is not exciting. I am more excited by someone making nice music and taking chances than some ridiculously fast technical playing. Granted, improvising for each individual is a different thing, some people take way more chances.
But in general I would rather hear someone sounding like they could stumble and fall than breezing through some technically amusing but non-emotional or non-musical piece.

It is more than just executing notes precisely. It is just like when you hear a drummer you really dig, most of the time he is not playing in 'perfect' meter he is moving things around in time.

One thing I really like about Yngwie is the fact that he (even though he is a speed meister) plays with great feel and a musical sense of time (which is not perfect meter). He frequently plays sextuplets as quintuplets and septuplets but extreme 'rubato'. This can be (and is by him) done very mucically. This is just one aspect of 'feel' as it pertains to time.

Vibratto, bending attack release, playing slightly out of tune playing with the time, these are all factors. The biggest is playing differently when you feel differently, this goes back to improvising. Record your self playing a solo over some chord change you know well, then record it three more time within the span of a week. Pick times when you are emotionally charged.
One when you are euphoric (or way up) one when you are down and one when you are angry. then go back and listen to them in a month or two. See if you can tell which one is which. Let other people listen to them and guess which one is which. When you and the others can tell which is which you are on the right track.

Bizarro
03-04-2003, 12:07 AM
Wow, I just watched the speed kills video for the first time. I love the overhand sweeping! I just about fell off my chair laughing!;)

The over/under hand speed thing is also funny.

Has anyone heard Michael Angelo play something other than shred stuff?

EricV
03-04-2003, 09:34 AM
No I havenīt... but I saw him in one of the worst movies of the 80īs... I donīt remember the title, but itīs kinda the same idea as "Crossroads"... some nerdy dude in LA sells his soul, meets a demon ( the demonīs wearing a mask and is playing a double-guitar... hint hint )... then he ( the nerd ) wakes up the next morning in a big house full of guitars with three purdy girls, he wears a bad wig and can play extremely fast...
And the rest of the movie is even worse... but the guitar licks are kinda amusing, theyīre so fast its ridiculous.

BTW, anyone who is planning on attending the "musikmesse" nin Frankfurt, try to be there on Saturday. Thorsten Koehne will jam live with Michael Angelo at the Dean-booth... should be fun to watch

Eric

abel_serra2002
03-04-2003, 04:04 PM
Please sorry for my english!!!!

It's obvious that carlos santana has an incredible feeling playin', that has moved a lot of people around the world to play guitar; he has 'created' the latin-rock music that we, and our parents, enjoy. He's a very mystical guy and he has created the best instrumental songs of the history of modern music. Santana is an inspiration from anyone of us, the musicians.

I like Carlos Santana, I have several albums of him, including Abraxas, Caravanserai, Amigos, BLues For Salvador, the John McLaughlin Stuff (nice album to lose your head!!!!), etc...
AND I have the pop stuff too!!! Supernatural, Shaman.

And then I start thinking...

Santana was a great guitar player. He was an inventor. At a time he was the guitarist with the best tone in the world. He had a great band.

NOW Santana is not Santana. I think the best music of Santana is the music he MADE, not the music he MAKES now.

Now Santana's doing a pop-latin-caffeine-free that only makes growing his account! He could be a fraud if he doesn't have faith himself. I think it's good to an old and consagrated artist to continue with his musical career if he has something good to say, look at Rolling Stones, but we are here not to say: "oh, santana is god", we have to say the truth: Santana could be the best, now is a good musician with a great band. The same happens with Eric Clapton. I am not saying they're not good, of course, poor of me!!!!! But THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. Worst? Different. That's why some people like Santana's Supernatural and dislike the others, and viceversa.

I want to say that this is an opinion, MY opinion and everyone could disagree with it. I'll continue listening to Santana, but sometimes the old stuff, when i went "nostalgic", and sometimes the new stuff, when I wanted more easy listening music.

But MetallicTheatre, don't think speed is the best thing in music!!!
Listen to SRV, Jeff Beck, Jimi, Albert King, Wes Montgomery, Kenny Burrell, even pianists, saxofonists, and all the styles of music you can listen to. And good luck!

EricV
03-04-2003, 04:49 PM
Yeah, I guess itīs another case of "regardless of which direction you go into next, someone will not like it"

He won a lot of fans with "Supernatural", and I am sure he lost a bunch, too.
Same goes for Clapton, although he changes his style of music several times.
Or Jeff Beck...
Eric

jkmcgrath
03-05-2003, 09:34 PM
Music has to make me feel an emotion. Happy, Sad, Motivated or relaxed ect. If it dosent then I dont like it personaly. Less is more has a huge place in music IMHO. While I find the speed guy skills inspiring to achieve just for the training aspect to improve playing clean each and every note perfectly note in a song. Dont waste your notes make each one count!

My first ever concert was George Benson and it just blew me away at the way his guitar sang every note he was singing by voice! I was hooked!!!!

I like heavy music because alot of it use to be blues with alot of kickbutt tone, listen to some old old motely Crue 82 0r 83. Mick Mars was awsome. So was Warren Dimartini of Ratt. I seen Richie Sambora play a gold top les paul during intermission in a concert they opened for Ratt. AWSOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nothing like their album and blues out the butt with incredible smooth distortion almost Gary Moore like!

Like they said Santana is famous because he is "Santana" and you can instantly tell which guitar part he is playing because it is his tone his style his way. That to me would be the ultimate to acheive being remembered for having my own style, sound and doing it my way.

hehehe man I rambled sorry lol

Danster
03-05-2003, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by jkmcgrath yeah, what he said!

I like heavy music because alot of it use to be blues with alot of kickbutt tone, listen to some old old motely Crue 82 0r 83. Mick Mars was awsome. So was Warren Dimartini of Ratt. I'm with ya there too. Those used to be a couple of my favorite bands. Motley Crue was fierce. Super energy. Their music certainly did make me "feel something" (to use your words).

EricV
03-05-2003, 09:45 PM
No reason to feel sorry at all =)

George Benson, huh ? I like his music, and I heard he is a VERY entertaining showman.
And Richie Sambora... great guitarist, great songwriter, awesome singer !
I have both his solo-albums ( "Stranger In This Town" and "Undiscovered Soul" ). Some great stuff on those, and it sure gives me goosebumps to listen to "The Answer", "Father Time", "One Light Burning", "Harlem Rain"... Great stuff !
I even played a cover-version of the title track of SITT once with a band I was in. Didnīt sing it though :)

Eric

jkmcgrath
03-06-2003, 12:20 AM
lol ok I am showing my age (42)


Motely Crue is why I still have a foundness of B.C. Rich even if mine are not of the Bernie Rico days but anyway Mick Mars and his red warlock just sounded sooooooo good! And sambora created my foundness of Les Pauls but unless a large bucket of cash falls from the sky I will never be able to own one of them :(

But we cant forget the Scorpions! Almost the Ultimate Heavy Metal guitar tone and they could phrase a ton. Cant spell their names (Michael Schecter?)

Danster
03-06-2003, 03:15 AM
Originally posted by jkmcgrath
[B]lol ok I am showing my age (42)I got you beat (43), but don't tell anyone. :)


Motely Crue is why I still have a foundness of B.C. Rich Back in the day's when I was going to rock concerts, I knew nothing of guitars. Those BC Rich's are quite distinctive though, eh?

And sambora created my foundness of Les Pauls but unless a large bucket of cash falls from the sky I will never be able to own one of them :( Sambora may be good but I can't stand Bon Jovi, so I don't know anything of Sambora.

But we cant forget the Scorpions! Almost the Ultimate Heavy Metal guitar tone and they could phrase a ton. Cant spell their names (Michael Schecter?) Those were the days. You remember we used to have to wait in line all night in the snow for those concert tickets to go on sale?:D Every one of those bands you've mentioned in this post and your previous one, I saw in concert during the 80's. I do actually remember one time waiting in line for tickets which was a major bummer. It was for a Van Halen concert. I forgot how it worked exactly, but somehow we got numbers which determined our position in line. I was freakin' number 4 in line to buy tickets! For some reason, they had ticket sales for this show starting at midnight. So I was out there waiting. Midnight came, no tickets being sold yet. 12:30...no tickets. 1am, 2am, still no freakin' tickets. At 2:30, the crowd had had enough, started almost rioting, beer bottles being thrown, etc. Therefore, they never did start selling tickets that night. So, my number 4 place to buy tickets was gone. Bummer. Besides that, David Lee Roth killed the show by hamming to the extreme, stopping almost every song in the middle to B.S. with the crowd. It was tiresome (as is this post I s'pose :p ). OK, I'm done.

DWBass
03-11-2003, 02:06 AM
Originally posted by MetallicTheatre
that could be true, i have only heard the supernatural album and seen him play on the dvd and his new stuff, i dont really know much else, but he does not use any complicated scales or time signatures, or maybe it just seems that none of his music is complicated, thnx 4 your feedback.
You own a PC? Do some research on the man! Type his name into a search engine and do some serious research. From your posts, it seems that you are not respecting an artist that has been around since the late 60's and has produced some of the most beautiful music ever heard! Why is it always about who can shred the best? Or the fastest? Supernatural doesn't even come close to any of his classic works! I'm sorry but you kinda remind me of a kid from Sweden (on another forum) who was so into Death Metal that nothing else mattered in his life! All he spoke of was how these bass players were so technically blazing fast and that they were so good that they could play traditional jazz. He provided several really sorry examples of DM players/bands 'attempting' to play jazz and latin music!! I literally fell off my seat laughing!! I know you're not the same way but you have to be more open minded or you're going to be a one dimensional player with no gigs by the time you hit 35! Unless you plan to shred until old age!

Oceano
03-11-2003, 04:48 PM
Technique is only a means to an end called music.

Obviously, you need a certain amount of technique to play anything, even if you are playing three chord punk rock, you need to have that much technique.

We tend to think that having technique means being able to play fast. While this is true, there are many other elements to technique.
Try and play Jeff Beck's "Where were you". Not a fast piece of music, in fact it is very slow, but it is harder to play (at least for me) than to do a very fast sweep, or scaler run.

Anyway, we should always listen to music with our eyes closed.

MetallicTheatre
03-19-2003, 07:30 AM
You people aren't listening to me, I have said several times that I completely understand that shredding isnt important to make good music, I have repeatedly said that.
All I was saying is that his stuff is not as hard, I am not saying his stuff is not good, I have also said I love it.

Regards Aaron

szulc
03-19-2003, 12:35 PM
I think it is just as hard, but in a different way.
The hard part about SRV or other feel players is coping the feel.
Technically what they are doing is less difficult than Vai. But coping the huge emotional feel is difficult if not impossible for most people. So, to me, it is harder to pull of some highly emotional stuff than fast or technical stuff.

The truth is you can LEARN technique, but you need to be BORN with feel.

DWBass
03-19-2003, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by MetallicTheatre
I completely understand that just because he is not a shredder doesn't mean he's crap, but what I'm saying is that he never shows more skill than a person whos been playing for 2 or 3 years, and he made millions. He just has a nice lead effect. I think thats all there is to him, and i just want to know why people like him. For the fact that he plays simple!! How many shredders do you know of are millionaires? He does write music too! The majority of the listening public want simple tunes that they can dance to and can hum or whistle along to! I know folks who have been playing 10 or more years and still don't sound as good as Santana! Shredders only appeal to other shredders! Get over it!

Oceano
03-19-2003, 02:09 PM
Music is all about the "sound".

Whether the sound is a blazing 200bmp run, or a very slow bend, it does not matter. What matters is whether you like it, or you don't.

Also, how the player produces that sound, is irrelevant to the listener (except maybe for us "guitar geeks").

DWBass
03-19-2003, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by Oceano
Music is all about the "sound".

Whether the sound is a blazing 200bmp run, or a very slow bend, it does not matter. What matters is whether you like it, or you don't.

Also, how the player produces that sound, is irrelevant to the listener (except maybe for us "guitar geeks"). True, but my thing is.........you can't dance or even tap your feet to Death Metal music playing at 240bpm. I'd much rather listen to a Santana or similar artists! I had an on going battle (On another board) with a Swedish bass player who raved about how frikkin' fast these bass players were (Death Metal) and that they were better than a person who was a jazz player. I told him to prove it with an example of a DM player, playing straight ahead jazz!! He couldn't do it and the few examples he provided (some latin stuff too) were highly laughable!! I still laugh when I think of it! It's cool being able to shred every now and then but don't expect to make a career out of it!

Oceano
03-19-2003, 05:23 PM
That's right, and that's why I mentioned, that you either like it, or you don't.

Sometimes, I love to listen to some extremely fast black metal, but other times I wan to listen to a slow acoustic guitar piece, or my favourite musical style which is choral music.

One is not better than the other, it's all different, but I like them all.

EricV
03-19-2003, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by szulc
I think it is just as hard, but in a different way.
The hard part about SRV or other feel players is coping the feel.
Technically what they are doing is less difficult than Vai. But coping the huge emotional feel is difficult if not impossible for most people. So, to me, it is harder to pull of some highly emotional stuff than fast or technical stuff.

The truth is you can LEARN technique, but you need to be BORN with feel.

I completely agree. I remember recording that cover-version of "People Get Ready" about 2 years ago... we tried to do a version based on the version by Rod Stewart and Jeff Beck. I always considered Jeffīs solos in "People Get Ready" some of the most beautiful stuff, and I tried to base my solos and phrasing on those leads.
It was TOUGH. I donīt know whether itīs harder to attempt playing some light-speed-lick by some player, or something like the ( almost vocal-like ) phrasing of guys like Jeff Beck, Eric Johnson and others. You canīt even put down in notes whatīs going on there.
Eric

Oceano
03-20-2003, 01:00 PM
For me, I always (and still do) found it easier to play fast, than to play slow (except when I was starting out).

I don't know, but I think that you can impress an audience by playing a straight scaler run, or a sweeping arpeggio progression at a very fast tempo, and it something that is pretty straight forward to learn.

Now, if we play the same thing slower, it will sound like we are practicing scales, or arpeggios at a slow tempo. When you are using fewer notes at a slower tempo, you have to be more creative, move away from mathematical patterns, and that's why it gets harder, at least for me.

Another guy who has unbelivable phrasing, is Neil Schon from Journey. I never liked Journey's music, but the melodies this guys comes up with, are just beautiful, and fit the songs perfectly. Also, he started out playing for Santana, which this thread is about.

DWBass
03-20-2003, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by Oceano
I don't know, but I think that you can impress an audience by playing a straight scaler run, or a sweeping arpeggio progression at a very fast tempo, and it something that is pretty straight forward to learn. Okay, but remember who is in the majority of any music listening audience? Mostly non-musicians who don't give a rats *** how fast or slow you play something! They want melodies! Something they can sing along with! Something they can dance to! I've been playing bass for 30 years and the first time I took an extended bass solo, I saw a ton of folks heading for the door! That changed my whole thinking of the shredding deal! It's nice that you can do it, but who's gonna pay good money to watch someone shred? Not me! Buy the cd or dvd and listen/watch em' shred to your hearts content!

Oceano
03-20-2003, 03:09 PM
For sure, and when I said that you can impress an audience by playing fast, I should have also added that that impressivness only lasts for about five minutes.

I too, don't care much for speed, or whatever. Once in a while it's cool to hear it, but the melody is where it's at. Most of my favourite guitar parts ever recorded are not that fast, and some are actually very slow.

I listen with my hears, not my eyes.

Also, music is not just about money.

DWBass
03-20-2003, 03:54 PM
I can dig it!!