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jazzmaniac
07-25-2006, 03:14 PM
Hi. I'm kinda new here in this forum thing, just registered some few minutes ago, and I thought I wanna start a forum on this subject.

I got this Perfect Pitch course from a guy named David Lucas Burge and I started doing the exercises a few days ago. I'm now doing the exercises in the Masterclass 7. So far, I'm doing quite fine with the last drills and I pass the "verification rounds", but now I think I need help with this exercise where you name white tones on the keyboard without looking. I think one should have a good relative pitch with this one too.

I just wanna know if there are some other guys here that tried and benefited with this course, maybe they can help me out and give some tips on how I can go about with the course. Also, are there some people here who have the complete Relative Pitch lessons by Mr. Burge? Where do I download them free? I'm broke and I can't buy it for now.

silent-storm
07-25-2006, 10:26 PM
well I can't comment on downloading them, although your local library may have some ear training courses that you could borrow, maybe even his.

I can assure you that your questions have been answered about 10 times in previous threads. This topic comes up again every couple of months.

jazzmaniac
07-26-2006, 01:27 AM
Hi there, silent-storm. Thanks for replying to my message. I never knew this forum, threading thing can be so, like close as having someone answer your questions in person.

Yeah, I've been reading some threads about this topic lately and I found some messages quite helpful. But I also wanted someone to help me out with my situation, someone who has been there too. I'm sure somebody will read this message and will write about his experience.

By the way, what's your instrument, silent-storm? Have you done some sort of ear-training before?

silent-storm
07-26-2006, 06:14 PM
I play guitar and piano and I have done three years of college ear training as well as a lot of stuff on my own.

the reason why I said to read other posts is because I have answered your question on a number of occasions. I worked through his perfect pitch course. It worked, but you should really try to find a friend to test you. If not you can start to rely on muscle memory in order to name the notes, which is not good. With a friend it will make it far more challenging and benefitial. Also don't be affraid to develop your own excersizes. I worked through about half of it, decided the rest wasn't going in the direction I wanted, so I came up with my own stuff that worked a lot better for my particular needs.

I can't give you any specific info on specific lessons because there is nothing you can do besides listen to it 10000 times before your ear slowly starts to figure it out for itself.

good luck

gersdal
07-26-2006, 07:52 PM
If you scroll down this page to similar threads, you'll find... exactly that. Maybe you'll find something interesting :rolleyes:

jazzmaniac
07-27-2006, 08:48 AM
So, you have perfect pitch now, silent-storm? How long did it take? Did you have a hard time doing the exercises? Perhaps you could tell me your experiences with it. When did all the "colors" started to become clear to you?

Right now, I'm on Masterclass 7 and just yesterday I was able to do 1 verification round on the drill. While doing the course, I'm also trying to strengthen my relative pitch since I found out a certain degree of it is needed to have p.pitch. Also yesterday, my girlfriend tested me on the keyboard, I got some wrong notes but mostly I got correct answers. I think my ear is beginning to open up a lot more than before. The unlocking technique helped me tremendously, and now I can do it with speed. I'm excited!

jazzmaniac
07-31-2006, 08:39 AM
I just want to say that right now, I'm on Masterclass 8 and just a while ago I was able to do 1 verification round for each of the two drills. I'm working on the last two drills in this session. My ear is opening up more and more. I would also like to add that I'm beginning to sort of hear and recognize some tones. I mean, if I play a on the piano without looking, I can tell the pitch. There's a certain feel to a pitch, at least to me, I don't know to some of you guys. I'm not talking about the pitch's highness or lowness, but something more. Sometimes I would get it quickly but most of the times I need to listen closely to get it. I'm not correct all the time, I could get wrong of course.

Nolly
08-15-2006, 11:59 PM
I did the course a couple of years ago and it does do what it says on the tin. It took me about two or three months if I remember rightly (while the information is valuable, the sheer amount of filler really began to piss me off by the end:mad:!) I found it best not to think about it too deeply but just let my ear open up on it's own. But it is a gradual process, and while you havn't yet fully developed your ear, you're obviously well on your way...
As for the 'feel'; it's something very personal and everyone chooses to describe it in a different way. I personally can't place what it is, to me it is almost subconscious, like an intuition, but I certainly can't allude the feeling to 'colours' like David does.
Anyway, the best advice I'd give is to relax about it and not worry about your rate of progress too much. Do the exercises he gives but don't think of them as 'practise' as such, rather as helpful ideas to aid your progress. I think the most important things are to listen to music as much as possible (actively, not just in the background) and transcribe and/or learn pieces by ear. I even used to sit with my guitar and pick out the ad jingles on TV and radio when I was waiting for a program to come on. This kind of thing will improve your ear no end and will greatly boost your progress and general musicianship.
Keep up your enthusiasm, and I hope you get the results you're after.:D

jazzmaniac
08-16-2006, 10:36 AM
Thank you very much for your post, Nolly. I really appreciate that. I thought this thread is dead, because no one has posted any message for quite a long time. And I know some guys wish this thread on this topic will end soon. But if ever this thread will come up again next month or so, I'd offer help to those who came through this like me.

Thanks for your suggestions, Nolly and I'm happy for you, now that you actually have perfect pitch and I'm sure that's helping you a lot in your musicianship. Right now, I'm on Masterclass 10, and I'm happy to say that I'm able to recognize most of the white tones. I mean, if I hear a C, I'd know it's a C. I'm also trying to develope what Mr. Burge called "aural recall", like when I wake up in the morning I'll try to sing a C, and check myself on the keyboard. Most of the times I can nail it, but of course I could get a little flat or sharp at times. I'm excited! I'm doing a lot of listening, not just on the background but also analytic - appreciating intervals, timbre and stuff. I'm a composer and I'm doing a lot of writing and transcribing too, but not always without my instrument with me, though. I'm looking forward for the day when I can write music and transcribe a song without my instrument beside me.

Hope to hear from you Nolly and you, guys.

c_n12
08-20-2006, 04:58 AM
Hey there!

Quick question to all Burge users who have advanced reasonably into the course. I am on Master Class 7 and am unsure about moving forward...Is it really of vital importance to follow Burge's "15 or 20 minutes and no more!" rule or are there those of you who have found it better to practice extended amounts of time and seen better results?

jazzmaniac
08-20-2006, 05:51 AM
Hi there, c n12. That's a nice nick, though. Do you have a name I can call you other that that?

Well, congratulations and you're now on the 8th masterclass. So, how's it going? As for you question, I suggest you don't have to follow strictly to what Mr. Burge said about doing the drills 15 or 20 minutes. Do what suites you as long as you're relaxed and not straining and giving yourself a headache. I do the drills for 20 to 25 minutes, and since I've got a lot of time this time of the year, I do them more that once a day. At most three times a day. Right now, I'm secured enough to identify all the white tones on the keyboard - whenever I hear it, I immediately know which tone it is. The ear training meditation helped me tremendously, I should say. I coupled that with relaxation techniques I've learned before. You see, it's really important to be relaxed and "open" whenever you're doing the course. So, take it easy man, I'm sure you'll get to your goal in time.

Nolly
08-20-2006, 11:16 AM
Heya c n12, welcome to iBreathe!
Working towards perfect pitch is a very personal thing, so you should never feel unsure about whether to try things out for yourself when doing the course. Try doing more. It may work for you, or you may not get any benefit from it, and from that you can adjust how you practise. Put it this way, you're never going to lose the progress you've made so far by practising more than 15-20 mins. Good luck mate

c_n12
08-20-2006, 04:16 PM
Thanks! I really appreciate your advice. I do not generally as a rule ever try to force myself to hear anything. If anything, I will generally listen sort of half-heartedly trying to hear the colors. Maintaing a relaxed mindset knowing that my mind will eventually naturally coordinate itself in the correct manner. I was just unsure whether extended practice, Even relaxed and easygoing practice may render my training ineffective because I'm unkowingly overworking my inner ear and not realizing it. Also, this feels like a hard lesson because it essentally is expects me to learn to recognize all the colors in the preparatory stages so I sometimes feel a bit like this course is going to take forever and sometimes even that I'm never going to get past the first step because I feel like I've been stuck on Master Class 8 for weeks now. I've tried everything. If someone plays C and D but even the moment you add even one more note (E) I stuggle even after practicing for 3 days. And to JazzManiac...the name's Chris Nosal hence the nickname. :)

jazzmaniac
08-21-2006, 03:46 AM
Cool, Chris Nosal! It's really nice to hear people's different experiences on this course.

This is my experience: Earlier in Masterclass 7, I got a bit discouraged to know that the drill is to identify any white tone on the keyboard. I mean, I was doing great with the other masterclasses before that, but identifying a pitch just by listening to it?! I thought, then what's the point of doing the course, since identifying a pitch just by listening is actually perfect pitch. Then why would this guy have me do it if I don't have it yet? Then that's when I started this thread and asked other guys who had done the course themselves. I learned that you should have a certain degree of relative pitch to be able to get through it. I have a good sense of relative pitch, but I was trying to block that when doing the first few courses until I discovered that you shouldn't really try to block relative pitch, in fact you need it. Probably the reason why you got stuck on Masterclass 8 is you're not conscious of the relation of the pitches or the interval. I just thought that, maybe I'm wrong. Right now, I still have that sense of relationship whenever I do the white tone drills, but while doing that I'm also noticing the "colors". There are certain feelings to a tone whenever I hear it, that's how someone with perfect pitch remembers a tone.

By the way, what's your music genre and instrument, Chris? Hope to hear more from you again next time.

c_n12
08-21-2006, 04:07 AM
Thanks again for the advice as always it helps! My main insturment of 9 years is actually percussion and I am a vocalist looking to learn to play piano and guitar by ear so I decided to learn Perfect Pitch first. But I'll keep you posted on how everything's going!

P.S - What would you suggest I do in an effort to get through Master Class 8? :)

jazzmaniac
08-21-2006, 06:51 AM
I suggest you do more of the ear training meditation Mr. Burge says in the course. Try to concentrate more and let the tone come to you, don't strain and don't force to hear anything, just open up your ears to the "colors" or should I say feeling of the tones. Working on your relative pitch will help a lot, at least that worked for me. Actually I'm not so far from where you're at with the course. I'm just on Masterclass 12 but I'm trying to help with what I know worked for me. I'm excited for both of us to get that perfect pitch we so very much wanted. :)

I play several instruments, including some percussion instruments too. Especially Latin percussions. Good luck in your music making, Chris.

c_n12
08-21-2006, 04:52 PM
Thanks again! Athough I actually haven't gotten through MC 8 yet but I found a free program to help me through the Master Class that is based more or less on Burge's course specifications called EarTest. It is nice because it acts as a flawless partner for me.

"EarTest implements two of the most basic exercises suggested by David L. Burge in his Perfect Pitch Ear-Training SuperCourse. These exercises really can help you develop your perfect pitch abilities. (Note that EarTest is not officially connected with Burge or the Perfect Pitch Ear-Training SuperCourse in any way, except that I purchased the course several years ago, and decided I needed a way to practice the exercises Burge suggests). "

- http://www.brenthugh.com/eartest/

And you were right! I found that when I just concentrated a little more and listened a little deeper I began to hear the tone colors. It's akward because it feels like I have to focus deeply yet still feel completely relaxed and free of strain. I'm still stuggling quite a bit but my success is greatly increased! :D

jazzmaniac
08-22-2006, 04:09 AM
I used EarMaster (introduced to me by a music professor) sometime before and it helped me with my relative pitch, since that was what I was developing then. I knew and believed perfect pitch can be developed but I just didn't have the time to gain it, because I know it would take a lot of listening, concentration and of course time.

Some ear training I had in the music college also helped me -- sight-singing (solfege, modus novus, etc.), interval drills (using mnemonics, i.e. remembering intervals of a familiar song), and the thing I hate the most -- music dictation. I was very good in music theory but I was just satisfactory with ear training. I passed all the ear training exams and all, but I wasn't really happy with how I did. It was such a tough nut to crack then. Until I finally decided to take and devote considerable amount of time for ear training, developing both relative and perfect pitch. And now, I'm happy with how I'm doing.

I just wanted to post that, you don't actually have to read this thing (cr*p if you may consider), I just have a lot of time to do that now. Good luck to everyone.

c_n12
08-22-2006, 10:38 PM
Hey How did you approach Master Class 8. By which I mean how did you practice your way through it? Did you try to learn all the notes in all octaves at ones. Or did you take it step by step like C,D then C,D,E then C,D,E,F ect. And did you try just let the colors come note by note or did they come all at once?

Thanks in advance,
Chris Nosal

jazzmaniac
08-23-2006, 02:26 AM
Hey How did you approach Master Class 8. By which I mean how did you practice your way through it? Did you try to learn all the notes in all octaves at ones. Or did you take it step by step like C,D then C,D,E then C,D,E,F ect. And did you try just let the colors come note by note or did they come all at once?

Thanks in advance,
Chris Nosal

What I did is I practiced the drills at "pitch level", i.e. right at the middle of the keyboard and an octave below it. It worked fine with me since I can hear the tones much clearer there. Because I think it's quite difficult to hear the colors (at this point) at the highest or lowest of the registers. I practiced right there and then I tested myself if I can hear the colors at the high register and the low. I did hear the colors still, but it's quite different (of course). It's true when Mr. Burge tells us that it's a different "tint" when you go up or down the register.

The colors came out all at once. It's not that I tried to hear each color of each of the notes one by one. I noticed all the colors when doing the ear training meditation. Now, in MC 8 you only have C, D, E & F but I noticed other colors too when doing the drills. Especially the harmonic white-tone third drill. When I play a two-note chord I could hear colors of each of the tones and notice how these tones "bleed" to each other.

At this point, has it ever happened to you that whenever you hear a white tone it seems like it wanted to go back to C? If you did notice that, I think you'll get past Phase I (up to Masterclass 12). So, tell me how you're progressing. Hope that helps. :)

c_n12
08-24-2006, 06:11 PM
has it ever happened to you that whenever you hear a white tone it seems like it wanted to go back to C? :)

I just don't know, I think I must be doing something wrong because all the tones just aren't coming out together and I'm not having that experience of the white note wanting to go back to C. I just don't feel like I'm getting this even though it's been over a week and a half. :(

dusura
08-25-2006, 02:55 AM
I just don't know, I think I must be doing something wrong because all the tones just aren't coming out together and I'm not having that experience of the white note wanting to go back to C. I just don't feel like I'm getting this even though it's been over a week and a half. :(

If you are playing white notes and hearing them resolving to C then that is relative pitch not absolute pitch.

jazzmaniac
08-25-2006, 05:24 AM
I just don't know, I think I must be doing something wrong because all the tones just aren't coming out together and I'm not having that experience of the white note wanting to go back to C. I just don't feel like I'm getting this even though it's been over a week and a half. :(

I think it would take some time for you to work on this. Not everyone has the same experience, though. Just one note, don't be overly concerned if the tones aren't coming out at this point, it will come out, even the most stubborn ear will hear this if the person concentrates more while relaxing more. What helped me through Phase 1 is "absolute relative pitch". It's like when you hear any tone, it's as if it wanted to go to C. Now, you would say it's not perfect pitch but relative pitch. Well, yeah...but I was also concious of the colors even though I'm relating each tone to C. But what happened is that relative pitch and perfect pitch got mixed up, when I got to the last few drills in Phase 1. It's relative pitch yeah, ironically, how could it be relative pitch when whenever you hear like E you also hear C. That's just something I experienced. While relating all the pitches to C, I can also hear all the tones' colors.

Right now, I can't say I have perfect pitch. I'm still working towards having that, and I know it's not very long.

And DUSURA, it is relative pitch, yeah, not perfect pitch.

Elcon
08-25-2006, 09:45 PM
It is great to know about people still interested in Perfect Pitch.

Hi, I am Elcon and I too did the Perfect Pitch course by D.L.Burge a long time ago.

I could wish I had full perfect pitch by now, but I do not unfortunately. I used to wonder why, but I think I may have found the issue to this "problem".

When I finished MasterClass22, I immediately started with 4, 5 and even 6 tone chords and after a while I stopped doing those exercises as I thought my ears would further develop all by itself.

Now how can this happen without practice, would you not think?

Yet I thought so, because I succesfully finished this course.

Then, about a week ago, I felt like doing some of MC22 again and you know what? I had trouble on it and made mistakes again.

Right now I am doing quite good and I feel the need to do this MC over and over again until it becomes very easy as being "second-nature" or so.

I see it like this:

From many mistakes to a few mistakes
From a few mistakes to no mistakes
From no mistakes to easy
From easy to "second-nature"

I do not say I cannot succesfully finish MC22. I can and I do so.
But each session, which I do for about 30 minutes maximum, I still end up making a few mistakes before I go through it succesfully (20 in a row correct)

Therefore, I feel like doing it again and again which I did not do back then.

I assume this should better get my ear into this "absolute hearing" habit.

More to come...

Take care,

Elcon

c_n12
08-26-2006, 12:22 AM
I'm a bit confused. So are you saying you did the course and it never really became permanant as Burge said it would or that you didn't really acquire the skill as throughly as you should have so it never became second nature? :)

jazzmaniac
08-26-2006, 07:06 AM
Wow, ELCON! You're in MC 22, you're almost done with the course. But I'm a bit confused too like C N12. Are you telling us you did finished the whole course a long time before or you're still in MC 22 and got stuck there?

A funny thing happened when I woke up this morning...I got out of bed, went straight to the bathroom and then I heard the jeepney from outside blew its horn. I immediately recognized the pitch of that horn. It's Ab, I said to myself. I let it linger in my head a little while and then reassured myself that it really is Ab. I ran up the stairs, went to my room and checked myself on the keyboard, and voila...it is really Ab!

I did a quality time (I must say) on Master Class 13's "inner-ear meditation" the other morning. It's a new exercise devoted to hearing the tones and noticing subtle differences with the individual pitches. Mr. Burge said that in Phase 1 everything (if not mostly) is done using relative pitch, but in Phase 2 the exercises are geared towards breaking that feel of relation and that's when perfect pitch gradually emerges. I then yesterday morning I did the first assignment on MC 14 -- playing a full C major chord followed by any black tone and then identifying that black tone. I didn't have a hard time doing that, actually I passed 1 verification round without any mistakes. Then I also noticed while doing that drill that I can hear the qualities of F#, Ab & Bb clearly but not so with the remaining two black tones. Everytime I hit Eb or C# in this drill, I'm quite unsure what that is and so I use relative pitch whenever I'm unsure. The point is (in my experience) whenever I pass a drill and go to the next, I seem to pass that drill easily.

Elcon
08-26-2006, 09:58 PM
Sorry for the confusion.

Yes, I did do the course from the start up to MC24, but actually you can say that I have not yet finished the course as David wants you to work on your own until you have gained this ability to its fullest or however you please in MC23 and MC24.

MasterClass 22 is really his own last exercise he wants you to do. He believes that when able to identify tones this way, you really got it down.

Chris Nosal wrote:
So are you saying you did the course and it never really became permanant as Burge said it would or that you didn't really acquire the skill as throughly as you should have so it never became second nature?

Elcon:
I believe I already have a permanent form of this tone recognition yes.
I can always tell the name of the tone I may play blindly on my keyboard since I once did this course.

No, I have not yet developed the skill as thoroughly as possible to be classified as a true perfect pitch possessor.

After thinking about it, I do suggest working with a partner if possible. I have 2 little brothers, but they usually do not want to work on it with me.

It is a totally different experience when somebody else plays you the tones.

I seem to have trouble with E and F which I confuse and C and B.

There is a software I know named ToneQuiz.
It allows you to make a set of tones played eighter together or seperately.
This functions great as this partner in MC22.

Take care,

Elcon

jazzmaniac
08-27-2006, 02:53 AM
Ok, I get it now. Aside from naming any tone played blindly on your keyboard, can you now sing any pitch at will (aural recall)? And can you name any pitch played by any instrument (universal color discrimination)? Because if you answer "yes" to both questions, wouldn't it mean you got absolute pitch?

Thanks for sharing us your experience with MC 22, Elcon. Could you tell us about your experience with the other MC's? Is there or are there any drills that made you kinda "excited", I mean is there a point in the course when you felt like you're near acquiring absolute pitch? Also, did you have a hard time doing all the drills? Thanks.

Elcon
08-28-2006, 02:45 PM
Jazzmaniac:
Aside from naming any tone played blindly on your keyboard, can you now sing any pitch at will (aural recall)?


Elcon:
As I cannot do this with consistency, I say no. I had never really worked on my aural recall, so I am not too good.


Jazzmaniac:
And can you name any pitch played by any instrument (universal color discrimination)?


Elcon:
Well, that is hard to tell.
I know I will recognize it as having a unique quality, but I may be a semi-tone off. All sounds I hear have different qualities, since I have done this perfect pitch course, but I may often not be able to name them.

Thus I do believe my sense of "tone colour" is definately developed and permanent so to say.

I recognize tones best if they are played live, I mean not over the radio, TV or any other transport device.


Jazzmaniac:
Because if you answer "yes" to both questions, wouldn't it mean you got absolute pitch?


Elcon:
Absolute pitch, as I thought you would know, comes in various forms and degrees/levels. Whether my hearing is a form of AP, I do not know and I do not find it important what it is named.

As for my experiences with this perfect pitch course, I can say I had easy and difficult moments.

I think I found most of them not to hard to do, but I do not really remember so well.

I do know I had trouble when I got to a MC where I had to identify 4 tones played simultaneously. Yeah, that one I found really tough to do.

Nevertheless, it only took me about 4 days or so (definately within a week) to get through the difficult ones.

I have read on various forums that some folks would spend weeks on just one MC. No, I never had THAT much trouble.

Working on MC22 now, this is my forth day, I feel very exited yes.
I really love doing this exercise and I enjoy it much.
Aha, yes, this MasterClass WILL take me weeks to complete.

I now, since August 26 2006, work with Tone Quiz and as I mentioned it is much different from playing the tones yourself on the instrument.
Now, not only E/F and B/C are difficulties, but almost all tones I may miss by a semi-tone.

It may be funny, but I enjoy making these errors. I just know they will make me better in time. Right now I am for about 80% correct, but I cannot get 20 in a row correctly yet.

Oh, another thing, I found it extremely hard to ID the tones from bottom up. And so I soon stopped doing so, because I just could not hear which tone was higher or lower.
Perhaps that is why some spend weeks on the MC's.

Long enough post, still reading?

I'll post more later.

Take care,

Elcon

jazzmaniac
08-28-2006, 04:01 PM
Again, thanks for sharing us your experience, Elcon.

I started the course last July this year (it's a month now, I hardly notice), and when I first started with the "unlocking" drills, I pretty much had the same experience as yours. I would get confused as to which tone is higher or lower. But it didn't last long. I didn't have (so far) any experience where I got stuck on a MC for few days or even a week. I'm now on MC 16, still working on that drill where you play any white-tone major chord followed by any black tone, then identify that black tone. I just finished D major up to G major, passing 1 verification round each. Right now, I would get confused with C# and Eb, but with the other black tones I'm fine.

I'm so excited to go to the next drills. Really, I can feel perfect pitch emerging gradually.

c_n12
08-28-2006, 07:19 PM
Elcon I just wanted to thank you for bringing the ToneQuiz software to my attention. I have been struggling with the solo exercises because they just don't seem to work for me as a learning style. And since I am still in the preparatory stages I've decided to go back and start from scratch with my "partner" which I have found much more oriented to my learning style. I seem to be making much better progress. I just wanted to personally thank you for bringing that software to my attention. :)

Elcon
08-28-2006, 09:30 PM
No problem guys... ladies in tha house?

Yeah, I really enjoy working with TQ.
It functions great as a partner as I my brothers would just not want nor have the patience to sit behind the synth and do some random chords for me.

Man, I hope you'll get through the course succesfully Jazzkid. I do not have any tips for you but to just continue the course and never to forgot to always use your relative pitch freely when you need to or when it naturally comes in to play. Never let try to block it.

I HAD to use relative pitch when I got stuck on MC22. I did not tell you about that one huh? I'll tell ya...

When I first did the course (and I did it three times) the first and second time I could not do MC22. It was impossible!!! I could not even do a single chord.

Somehow the tones sounded extremely different and even though I tried as hard as I could to use RP, I could not get it.

Yes, I know now, don't force just listen.

I wanted to tell you what I did, but maybe I should not.
Just go through the MC's and maybe, I hope not, when you too are unable to do MC22, I will tell you what I did.

Forgive me for not going any further, but it may not be good. I don't know, I just figured you should hear for yourself and work your ear your own way.

Take care,

Elcon

jazzmaniac
08-29-2006, 02:22 AM
It's so nice to see how this forum turned into a "support group".

Thanks for the tip, Elcon. A good sense of relative pitch is something I have prior to when I first started the perfect pitch course and I never block it in anyway as I found it really is helpful in gaining perfect pitch. When I noticed that I can identify all white tones on the keyboard with speed (just by listening, of course), I got so excited and so I thought this could be perfect pitch because I can hear the pitch distinctly. But when I got to MC 12 I learned that what really happened there is I got what Mr. Burge calls "absolute relative pitch". Then I get it, how whenever I hear a pitch I would immediately hear C. He also said that that's when perfect pitch mixes up with relative pitch. The exercises here on Phase 2 are really cool because they somehow break that feeling of relating every tone to C, especially doing those chord followed by any black tone, there's no more relating. And my memory of the pitches are doing great now. Like when I just woke up this morning, I heard a C augmented chord in my head. I tried to unlock it in my head to see if the tones are C, E and G#, then I checked on the keyboard, it's correct!

Elcon, has it happened to you that you kinda hear a tone in your head and you're definitely sure that that tone is that tone? I mean, whenever I hear C, Ab, G, B and E in my head I immediately know them. Like this Ab, it lingers in my head even when I've never done any drill that day.

Is ToneQuiz a free soft? I use Functional Ear Trainer whenever I feel like checking myself. It's a nice soft too, you can set all the notes, it plays chords, etc.

Elcon
08-29-2006, 12:33 PM
It had happened several times when I heard a tone in my and knew what it was yes.

Tone Quiz is shareware, you can only use it for 20 times. I'll check out the Functional Ear Trainer aswell.

Looks like you are doing good Jazz.
You might even get there before I do!

Take care,

Elcon

jazzmaniac
08-29-2006, 04:16 PM
Functional Ear Trainer is a freeware. I always have negative feeling towards sharewares, though. Because as we all know, you can only use them for a short time then comes the expiration. I used a freeware version of Ear Master before. That helped me with my relative pitch. I only use FET when I feel like checking myself with random notes. It's like having a partner testing you. Nice soft, though.

Are you doing the solo keyboard drills, Elcon? By the way, what instrument/s do you play? And what's your genre?

Elcon
08-30-2006, 01:11 AM
I worked on the "solo keyboard drills".

I am more of a vocalist then an instrument player. I own a syntheziser keyboard and years ago I used to play some songs that I would figure out by ear.
I have not done that in a while.

I like all kinds of genres, but I do favor R&B and Hip Hop aswell as Classical, Soul and Jazz.

Take care,

Elcon

jazzmaniac
08-30-2006, 02:21 AM
That's cool! I'm eclectic too when it comes to music. I love all sorts -- World, Jazz, Pop, Gospel, Blues, R&B, Classical, Avant-Garde, etc. That's probably because I grew up in a home where diverse musical styles are always being played.

I would play music by ear too, and most of the times I transcribe them. Part of the reason why I would like to have this p. pitch ability is because I wanted to be more accurate with my transcriptions and I wanted to do it faster (without the aid of an instrument beside me). I used to transcribe music using mostly relative pitch, but now I wanted to have p. pitch so I can listen more. In short, I wanted to have a really excellent ear, and that could only be attained through practice, we all know that.

Gstring
08-30-2006, 12:57 PM
Hi all,

Just joined - first post etc.

I am very into improving my ear. At the moment I am practicing 4th & 5th intervals as well as Major / Minor Triads. Progress is OK and I am used to hearing those intervals now. ie I can sing a 5th above the root when only the root is played.

I see on the David Burge ear training course that 3rds are next.

I am thinking about purchasing the David Burge Relative Pitch Course.

Is it recommended ?? I am interested to see what 'keys' he uses.

I only play the intervals ( notes seperately and then sing them back ). I plan to do this for every interval and only then will I start practicing harmonic intervals.

Should I buy the Relative Pitch course ?

Elcon
08-30-2006, 01:21 PM
Everywhere you come on a forum about perfect pitch talks, you have people to say:

"Well, it is much better to just develop relative pitch then perfect pitch, relative pitch is much more important and a need for working on music"

Something in that flavor right?

I too believe that if you are just trying to become better at music you should first start with relative pitch for that is what music is all about.
If your RP is "good" enough, then all you would need to know is the very first tone.

Perhaps if you believe you have developed your musical eartraining to its fullest for what RP concerns, you may think that PP will be the key for further improvement.

If so, I will agree.

This is not the case for me.
Although I am also a musician, it was not the intention to develop PP in order to make me a better one. If that was the case I too would first start to focus on my RP development which is an unlimited path to completeness.

I want PP just for fun, no serieus intentions at all. Oh sure yeah, I did get just a tiny little bitty obsessed by it, but... Just for fun?!


Next coming up: Sound perception

Take care,

Elcon

Elcon
08-30-2006, 01:41 PM
When trying to identify the tones within a chord seems not a simplistic task when the sound comes out of more then one box.

There is a smaller one to the upper left of me, next to my computer screen, to the upper right the bigger one (having the on/off and bass boost buttons) and just a little further to the right the other smaller one.

I had noticed how each tone of a chord has its own direction into space. So, I may sit this way only hearing C and A, but sitting that way I may hear C, A and Bb. Yet, sitting another way I may hear C, A, Bb and F# (which is one of the overtones)

Each position I take gives me a clearer of different perception of the tones within that chord. This is a challenging way of practice, but also a tricky one.

I need to change position until I atleast hear three tones, for that is my setting to the exercise, but if I hear four or more tones I need to decipher which to dismiss.

You may think that is all? No.

Still I can also get a question where one tone is dubble like: C#, B, B.

Usually I can tell that one of the tones is dubble, but I am somehow unable to tell wich one. It is funny to know that I am usually wrong on this guess so I would answer: C#, C#, B.

But, would I sit in a other position hearing a overtone which would make me believe there is none dubble...

Yesterdaynight I came home and wanting to do one more session before going to bed. Since I did not wanted to disturb the familymembers, I put on my headphones. This got me a much better perception of the tones.

I now still prefer without the headphones though.
Makes it more challenging which I like.

Take care,

Elcon

Gstring
08-30-2006, 01:57 PM
I would like PP.....no doubts about it.

However I first want an excellent RP ability.

Therefore I am starting from scratch - 4th & 5th intervals & Octaves.

I really have the 5th nalied, working on the 4ths now with Major 3rds next.

As mentioned previously I am thinking of getting David Burges RP lessons.

I'd like to buy Lesson 1 individually but I think that you can only buy the whole set. Bit more expensive so a bit more thinking involved.

jazzmaniac
08-30-2006, 02:17 PM
I would recommend Mr. Burge's Relative Pitch Course. I sampled some of the tracks before and planned to purchase it, but as you know it's so expensive and right now I can't buy something with that price tag. I too dreamed of having the set of CDs. There are actually installment plans if ever you can't afford that $300. If you haven't checked the website I think you should go there.

Mr. Burge has a way of telling and making you understand things, he's really good at it and so far with my experience with his Perfect Pitch course, I can say I learned a lot from the guy. Other than Mr. Burge there are actually some softwares that can help you have a good relative pitch, like Ear Master, Ear Test, Functional Ear Trainer, etc. and of course some books. But of course it's different when you have someone telling how to go about on things like with Mr. Burge's audio CD course.

Elcon, that's a nice topic you brought up. I too notice the same things, like when you shift positions you hear differently. So how are you doing with MC 22 now? I'm near accomplishing MC 17. Some of the drills are not easy now, they can be tricky.

Gstring
08-30-2006, 02:23 PM
Jazz & Elcon,

What level of RP do you guys have ?

If I were to play an Maj7 or Dom7th chord would you be able to tell me what kind of chord it is ( without me saying this is either Maj7 or Dom7th ) ?

What about if I were to play a Lydian scale ?

Just wondering.

I've also spend a lot of time transcribing of records but I'd like to hear things better without a guitar in my hand.

c_n12
08-30-2006, 04:27 PM
Actually I got both programs brand new through eBay for about $240.00 (P.P $69.50, R.P $169.00) Both arrived brand new and in the box. They were completely identical to the items I would have gotten had I purchased them through Burge's web site. if your interested the eBay page details how they offer such good prices.

Ebay Pages:
Perfect Pitch (http://cgi.ebay.com/PERFECT-PITCH-EAR-TRAINING-SUPERCOURSE-Absolute-NEW_W0QQitemZ170022017396QQihZ007QQcategoryZ41780Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)
Relative Pitch (http://cgi.ebay.com/RELATIVE-PITCH-EAR-TRAINING-Absolute-Perfect-NEW-CDs_W0QQitemZ170022017284QQihZ007QQcategoryZ41780Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

Gstring
08-30-2006, 06:16 PM
Thanks C - I've just ordered my RP package.:D

c_n12
08-30-2006, 06:19 PM
Glad I could help! :)

Elcon
08-30-2006, 11:47 PM
Slowly I am getting better at doing MC 22 drills.
I am very satisfied with its results so far.

My level of RP?

Slim to none I guess.
I would not be able to name any interval or chord at all. Yeah, I guess if I would know what the tones are I could tell the basic stuff like the major and minor chords like C/E/G or C/Eb/G or intervals like a major 2nd and so on. But I could not recognize it by ear alone, not at all.

I can't hardly wait for you to get to MC 22 Jazzy. Don't rush though, I'll just have to wait :)

Take care,

Elcon

jazzmaniac
08-31-2006, 01:56 AM
One of the most easiest of the chords that I would recognize right away is the Maj7 chord. Dom7 is way easy, as it tends to go to the "tonic". I just love the way Maj7 sounds. Pretty much all the chords, I can tell by ear alone. Even the "difficult" chords like #9#5, min+Maj7, b9, #11, etc. But if you're going to ask me what notes are in the chord, that I cannot tell, that's what I'm developing right now -- perfect pitch. I would just know the quality of the chord not the exact pitches. All of the scales too -- major, minor (harmonic, melodic, natural), modal scales I can tell by ear but not the exact name (key) of the scale. In time I've already developed a very good relative pitch, because that's what mainly is developed in music colleges. Solfege can be a good exercise for developing it as well as music dictation. So through exercise and drills you too can have a good relative pitch. By the way, just a tip, it's good to start learning all the perfect intervals at first.

jazzmaniac
08-31-2006, 09:26 AM
Hey Elcon, it's good to hear you're doing good at MC 22 now. :) I'm not rushing or something, I'm just taking my time. At first, I remember, I was so excited to go to the next drills when everything seems a bit easy to me, but now I'm allowing my ear to grow how ever long or quick it would take. Right now, I'm happy with what I can hear but of course I can't stop there. I just finished MC 17 and I'll start working the drills on MC 18 tomorrow.

By the way, I added you to my Yahoo list the other day, have you checked your YM? Same with Chris Nosal, I just added him. How are you doing with the course now, Chris? We haven't heard anything from you lately, though. We hope to hear news from you, man, as well as those working on their perfect pitch or relative pitch courses. I think this forum is a support group as well. Take care y'all. :)

Gstring
08-31-2006, 01:42 PM
Just did my daily ear training and I've had a breakthrough.

You know that feeling when you realise that you are hearing something for real, that you are really hearing it. Well I just had that feeling !!

I was practicing my 4th and all of a sudden it clicked and I could sing 4ths from any root. I started with Do - Fa from the Solfege that I was reading yesterday and it clicked. Previously I had been singing 1 - 4 or just humming.

I know that I have the 4th now because I had the same feeling when I recognised the 5th.

This is cool !!

I will continue to practice the 4th till Sunday to really solidify it in my ear then I'll start on the Maj 3rd.

How long should a person practice intervals for ? I think Burge says something like 20 minutes of ear training per day max. I am taking heed, I'll do a bit but will leave enough to make sure that I will do my exercises the next day.

Strange that Burge says that though cause guys like Vai spend whole days transcribing stuff.

Any thoughts ?

Elcon
08-31-2006, 01:52 PM
When I tried to add my MSN handle here on iBreatheMusic, it said it was wrong or something.

I have MSN, Yahoo and AIM (CompuServe Instant Messenger)

For MSN I use my own name Elcon and the e-mail adress is elmegoo@hotmail.com
For Yahoo I have elmegoo and elconceive
And for AIM I use elconcrete

You are almost there Jazz. I am very happy for your progression on the course.

Elcon
08-31-2006, 02:09 PM
I am not too sure what you mean Gstring, but if it is about how long one should spend eartraining for I say it depends.

Many months ago I used to do 1 hour of eartraining each session, then I cut it down to 45 minutes and now, since a few months, I take 30 minutes maximum per session.

It definately makes a difference.
For me it all has to do with concentration and the mind processing I think.

I try to sense my wellbeing with care when I eartrain, since my eagerness to continue may overcome.

And that is funny, because often I really feel like going for these 30 minutes as I really want to progress fast, but then suddenly after 15-20 minutes I sense that I loose "energy" or something. That's when I know I should stop and so I do.


Next: Degree of development

Take care,

Elcon

Elcon
08-31-2006, 02:17 PM
I believe that for some things, the better you get at it, the longer you can spend time on it.

Perhaps when you first start to learn how to read, you may want to do not more then 15 at a time. When you get better, you can have 30 minutes a time.
And when you are able to read fluently, you can read all day.

Sure, concentration and your focus may decline, but you will still be able to read right? Whether you have conceived and understood the lines is something else.

Maybe with Eartraining it is the same thing.
Whenever you get to the point of getting it without much or any thought, you can listen and/or transcribe music all day, just like reading or naming colors.

Take care,

Elcon

c_n12
08-31-2006, 02:30 PM
I guess I'm just running a little slow lol...the solo practice just didn't really seem to go for me so I went back and decided to start with the partner exercieses using Tonequiz which I decided to register because it seemed like a good program. I'm only on MC 8 but it's progress. My ear I found is one of those really stubborn ones Burge speaks of in his course...but I'm gonna keep plugging until I get their. The payment of perfect pitch is too great an offer to pass up...It's gonna be a push for me but I'm gonna make it!

PS - I'm going to be around most of the day so if anyone can go on Instant Messenger I'd be very eager to talk to you in directly. :)

Gstring
08-31-2006, 03:02 PM
Elcon - what part of the Netherlands are you from ? I was born in Hoorn and lived there for 10 years before we moved to Australia ( although I live in Ireland now ).

You answered my question perfectly BTW.

I am actually practicing my intervals in little bursts. Maybe a few minutes every hour.
I'd like to have my intervals down before the end of the year, hopefully it will be possible.

jazzmaniac
08-31-2006, 04:11 PM
Thanks again, Elcon. So you're from Holland, eh? That's I lovely place I'm told. I hope we can have a l'il chit chat on Yahoo, and you too Chris. You're ear is growing, Chris, you may not notice it, just keep on doing it and do it with concentration and easiness.

Well, congratulations, Gstring! You'll get the hang of it, I'm sure. You guys have lots of money to spend. I wish I'm earning a lot to buy things I wanted.

Elcon
08-31-2006, 10:52 PM
I live in Rotterdam.

Practicing in little bursts, may be good.

Just had a great chat on Yahoo with Chris Nosal.

Take care,

Elcon

c_n12
09-01-2006, 02:55 AM
Maybe with Eartraining it is the same thing.
Whenever you get to the point of getting it without much or any thought, you can listen and/or transcribe music all day, just like reading or naming colors.

Elcon



We must all remember also, we are all learning a skill that, ideally, is best learned in early development, because at that time acquiring perfect pitch is likely a much more unconscious experience.

Gstring
09-02-2006, 11:31 AM
Hi Chris - how are you finding the RP course ?

Can't wait till my RP course arrives. How long did your course take to arrive Chris ?

Was your ear as good as you thought when you did the RP course exams ?

Dillegently practised my 5ths & 4ths today - will start my Maj 3rds on Monday.

Oh - appearently guitarist Eric Johnsons ears are so good that he can tell the difference between the brand of battieries in his equipment ?!?!?!

Yngwie also supposedly has perfect pitch but I have not heard of his 'feats' yet ( apart from his playing of course ).

BTW I am currently playing a lot of fingerstyle acoustic guitar.

c_n12
09-02-2006, 08:41 PM
Well I ordered next day air so I got it at about 10:30 the morning after I purchased it. And I haven't actually started it yetm I got it more recently and am still on Perfect Pitch. And that Eric Johnson thing sounds like crap. it dosen't make sense that the power source would affect the sound of the equipment. And fingerpicking is wonderful! It can be complex but it can create extraordinary beauty.

Gstring
09-02-2006, 09:15 PM
Just working on Bach's Bouree in E minor at the moment. I have it down slowly so it's just a case of working with the metronome. I love the bass - sounds great.

Why would you want to purchase the RP course if you are doing the PP course ? With PP you'd hear a C and a G so you'd know that they're a 5th apart. Same with chords. imo RP would come with minimal effort if you have PP.

In my case I think that my ears aren't open enough for PP yet. Don't get me wrong, I find it easy enough taking things of CD's with my guitar in hand but away from the instrument it's another story. That's why I'm trying for RP first, too really open up my ear.

Elcon
09-02-2006, 11:54 PM
Gstring:
"With PP you'd hear a C and a G so you'd know that they're a 5th apart."

Elcon:
Yes, you would know only after some conscious (calculated) effort.
The RP one would preferably want is the one that won't need such an effort.
It is the kind where the ear itself, consciously or not, will hear its particular quality of the sound it produces. PP alone will not give you this ability.

Gstring:
"imo RP would come with minimal effort if you have PP."

Elcon:
And in my opinion it may not.

An interval like a Major 3rd has a particular sound. The sound it produces should be recognizable in any key you hear it in. The same, I guess, should apply for any other interval and chords.

Perhaps for PPP's who are trying to hear its recognizable RP sound, will have trouble on it, because what they will hear first of all are the absolute pitches or position of tone(s). It may be more on their surface level of hearing instead of what they should be listening for.

Ofcourse, I do believe that any PPP should know not to listen for the tones itself, but to the sound it engenders.


Take care,

Elcon

Gstring
09-03-2006, 12:09 AM
Yes - PP & RP require two seperate hearing abilities. Sort of like two sides of the same coin.

Anyhow I have just been given an exercise by Jeff Linsky. Jeff is a phenominal guitarist who can play any tunes melody ( if he's heard it ) with chord improvisation on the spot. Amazing ear needless to say. He did a lot of gigs on cruise ships etc.

He basically said to imagine a melody and then play it back on the guitar. Obviously it shouldn't be a melody that you play already but a melody that you've heard before but never played.

Once you have the melody then add chords to it.

This has to be done daily and improvement will be seen over time.

Well I wouldn't mind being able to improvise like that so I did my first song today ( edit: although it took me a while to get the melody right ).

jazzmaniac
09-03-2006, 02:09 AM
Yes - PP & RP require two seperate hearing abilities. Sort of like two sides of the same coin.

Anyhow I have just been given an exercise by Jeff Linsky. Jeff is a phenominal guitarist who can play any tunes melody ( if he's heard it ) with chord improvisation on the spot. Amazing ear needless to say. He did a lot of gigs on cruise ships etc.

He basically said to imagine a melody and then play it back on the guitar. Obviously it shouldn't be a melody that you play already but a melody that you've heard before but never played.

Once you have the melody then add chords to it.

This has to be done daily and improvement will be seen over time.

Well I wouldn't mind being able to improvise like that so I did my first song today ( edit: although it took me a while to get the melody right ).

That's a good exercise, Gstring. But what exactly are you developing with that, RP or PP? Well, I'll try to answer my own question here. If it's RP you would like to develop with this exercise, then you would have to be concious of the intervals in the melody you're "hearing" in your head, but if it's PP you're after then you would have to be concious of the tones (identifying 'em) instead.

In my opinion, this exercise, on the surface, develops the ability of being able to play a melody which you hear in your head down to your instrument. That's it. I do that all the time. Not only with my original compositions but also with known melodies. Because it cannot be a good RP or PP exercise if you're not paying attention to intervals or pitches. What helped me in my RP is when I think of a melody, say a popular song on the radio, I would transcribe it on paper (without the aid of any instrument) and then sight read the transcription to see if it matches the melody. If I'm unsure then I would check myself on my instrument. Then if I have wrong intervals I would correct them. When I did good with this, I didn't write everything anymore, just imagine the intervals (and chords as well) in my head then go straight to my instrument. I would just transcribe for future use of that transcription or if I wanted to give my friends a copy.

Gstring
09-03-2006, 09:49 AM
Well I asked Jeff whether he has RP or PP. His reply was that he doesn't have PP but rather he just guesses where he has to go ( ie a funny way of saying RP ).

So the exercise would really to help RP.

I can't play melodies without mistakes the first time I think of them and then try to play them. I just tried it with JL's 'Imagine'. Didn't get the melody right the first time I played it. :o

Might be a good exercise to do for you guys: Try playing the melody ( at song speed ) to 'Imagine'. See if you get it right the first time.

The Mrs has said that she'd do ear training with me. I'd say that she'll be way ahead of me in the Burge RP course in no time. She sings and plays violin. She is also able to think of a melody and then play it back straight away. Maybe not 100% of the time but enough for me to know that she has a great ear.!

I'm looking forward in anticipation to receiving the course.

jazzmaniac
09-03-2006, 02:58 PM
Cool, Gstring! Enjoy the RP course, I've heard lots of good reviews about it. Hopefully I'll be able to order one for myself too in the future. I wanna see how Mr. Burge does it with this one.

About my PP drills, I felt I need to backtrack a bit, that is I wanted to go back to the earlier drills. Not that I'm having a had time with the present exercises, I just think I need to "strengthen" my perception of the tones more. Right now I'm on the Master Class 18 I did good with the first drill and slowly now I'm beginning to "loose" that feeling of relating everything to C tonality, which I was doing I think 90% during the first phase. I'm feeling kinda lost, not having a home or something, but Mr. Burge says it's the right experience. That's why I wanted to concentrate more on hearing the colors individually.

So what happened to the others on their drills now? I wanna hear from Elcon and Chris. What's up guys? :)

Gstring
09-04-2006, 02:38 PM
Started my Maj 3rd intervals today. :D

Elcon
09-04-2006, 03:21 PM
I am good Jazz, I'm good.

Does it mean you are having difficulties for wanting to backtrack on the PP course?

Just checked what MC18 is all about. I do not remember if I really had any difficulties on that one.

Yeah, the MC's that follow, that is MC19, 20, 21, 22, you may find quite easy to do. And hopefully MC23 won't be too much of a big deal for you aswell.

As for me, I have become better at MC23 or the way TQ drills me which is a random three tone chord so not in particular 2 whites and 1 black, but any random three random tones of the full chromatic scale.

Take care,

Elcon

jazzmaniac
09-05-2006, 01:41 AM
No, I'm not having any difficulty with MC 18. I backtrack to the Master Class where the black tones were first introduced. I think that's MC 12. I wanted to do more drills on the black tones more, and I noticed that the previous exercises are way too easy now compared to when I first did those drills. Also, I'm doing more harmonic exercises because that could get tricky to me especially with wide chords.

So, now you're telling me you're in MC 23? Well, cool! Keep us posted with your developments.

c_n12
09-05-2006, 08:31 PM
Nothing really lol. Small progress. I'm working steadily but am currently only on MC 7 but I'm making slow but steady minor improvment

jazzmaniac
09-06-2006, 02:25 AM
Good to hear that, Chris. :) Keep on working. How are the people doing with their Relative Pitch Course now? Hopefully by next week I'll be able to lay my hands on the RP course too! A good friend of mine is lending me his RP CD's. So I guess I would be able to know about it too and be able to share my experience to those people taking the course here. Mr. Burge says that if you develop both PP and RP at the same time, the ear is 4 times more powerful than taking any of the two separately. I guess I need to polish my RP too because mine could get "rusty" at times.

c_n12
09-06-2006, 03:11 AM
Thanks Jazz! :)

Yeah I just keep with myself the thought that it may take me longer to learn it. But the curse has a flipside of a blessing because when I take longer to learn it it stays learnt and becomes that much more solid because of the extra time required.

And it is so nice to have the care and support of numerous other course takers! :)

Gstring
09-07-2006, 12:40 PM
Received the RP course this morning.

Did a lot of listening and am up to lesson 3 so first test tomorrow.

It's only 5ths so I should be ok.

:)

Gstring
09-08-2006, 10:36 AM
Up to lesson 4 after this mornings tests. :)

I was watching TV last night and I hear a Perfect 4th interval during an advertisment. So the practice is starting to work.....

Also about the RP course, Burge does his exercises faster then I have been doing mine. I was more or less doing the same thing but with added stuff thrown in.

Will do a little bit more this afternoon and then the Perfect 4th test tomorrow.

jazzmaniac
09-08-2006, 12:19 PM
Good for you, Gstring!!! Keep on doing the exercises and I'm sure you'll hear more.

c_n12
09-10-2006, 03:30 AM
It's what I've been awaiting for weeks!!! MY EAR IS FINALLY OPENED UP!!! :D

Elcon
09-10-2006, 06:07 PM
What's up people!

How is Jazzmaniac doing?
Which MC are you on now?

I am doing good. Getting noticeably better now. I enjoy the improvement much. Also doing good on my Aural Recall exercises.

Hope you all do good.

Take care,

Elcon

jazzmaniac
09-11-2006, 02:19 PM
What's up people!

How is Jazzmaniac doing?
Which MC are you on now?

I am doing good. Getting noticeably better now. I enjoy the improvement much. Also doing good on my Aural Recall exercises.

Hope you all do good.

Take care,

Elcon

Hello, what's up people? It's been quite a while since I last posted a message here. Well, I took a few days off from doing the drills because I had some very important things to do, and now I'm back to the drills. I'm just taking everything easily, without any care and worry and even haste to have that perfect pitch that we so very much wanted. I discovered that by doing so, gaining perfect pitch is so easy. Every tone I hear now sounds familiar and as of now it would take me some few seconds to figure what that tone is, and most of the times I will get it correctly if not a little flat or sharp. I'm doing a lot of "inner ear meditation" that is introduced in MC 13. Even now I feel aural recall is taking shape.

My good friend lent me his Relative Pitch Course -- all 41 CD's (that's quite a lot compared to the PP course, though) and I'm so excited to see how Burge does it with this. By the way, I met a guy online who took PP course but somehow got stuck in the first few drills, so he bought the RP course so he could have relative pitch too while taking the perfect pitch course. He said that his progress became faster and now he's happy to have both very good relative and perfect pitch. Well, I guess that worked for him.

c_n12
09-11-2006, 08:17 PM
Jazz, very happy to hear you found a finacially practical way to obtain the DLB RP Course...he is very through in it as with his PP course and I'm sure you will love it! :)

jazzmaniac
09-12-2006, 06:30 AM
I know I can't buy the RP course but I'm glad I have good friends around. :) I haven't started it yet, though. So how's everyone with their drills now?

Elcon
09-12-2006, 05:05 PM
I am doing pretty good on my drills and I notice development in my hearing.

Last night my little cousin, who lives in South America, Surinam, came to stay with us for a few days. He is 12 years of age.

Usually I would always check upon little children that come in our house to see if they have perfect pitch, but this time I did not ask him.

Today, when I came into my brother's room where he spend the night, I noticed my tuning fork. He saw me looking at it and asked what it was. I said it is my tuning fork and he replied saying an A right?

All right, nothing special about that.
So, I wanted to test him and asked if he knows the sound of an A and he said yes, but when I asked him to sing it he sang not the A. I had him listening to the sound and he sang the same wrong tone and said he was right. Ofcourse he was not.

Wondering if it was just his voice, I had him have some fun on my keyboard. He asked me later if he could play on it so I let him. This was about 1,5 hour later.

He does not know about the names of the tones and did not have any musical training whatsoever.

Then I asked him if he could play me the sound he heard from the tuning fork.
He searched for it and got it right! He got it, he played an A!!

I was stunned. First I thought he was messing with me, for not knowing what the names of the tones are, but he did not.

I asked him how he did it and he said. "You just hear it".

I had him listening to all the white keys, in one octave, and told him the names. Then I showed him what I think he should be able to do, so I turned my back and played a random tone and identified it.

Then he did the same and he got it right. Just once actually, I think because he forgot the names of the tones.

So after testing him for a while, I believe he has perfect pitch, but it is yet underdeveloped.
And I believe timbre is a big issue for him as he could not get the timbre of voices and other particular timbres.

Take care,

Elcon

c_n12
09-12-2006, 09:15 PM
Just an update...I'm still on MC7 It feels like it's going unbearably slow but I'm noticing little improvments day by day and I know I'm making progress.

Elcon
09-12-2006, 09:49 PM
Noticing improvements on a daily basis is outstanding!

How much slower can you get :)

I know I notice improvements only after a few days of practice.

I guess you are doing good Chris.

Take care,

Elcon

jazzmaniac
09-13-2006, 02:55 AM
WOW! Good to hear everyone in here's doing great with their drills. :) Just be patient Chris, you're getting there. Nice anecdote, Elcon.

As for me, I'm doing good with my PP drills since I backtrack a bit, now I find the last few drills easier. I'm also doing the RP course which I find great -- a different approach than what I had in college some years ago.

c_n12
09-13-2006, 10:16 PM
Finally after all this work I can feel it...I'm anticipating I'll finally move on to a new MC within the next couple of days...I know it's been a while and It's only one small step in my quest but it's a start twoards Perfect Pitch but I know sooner or later all the work will pay off in everything I do and I'll be really glad that I never gave up!

Thanks for the support of everyone I appreciate it more than anything! :)

P.S - Jazz how are you liking DLB's RP Course?

jazzmaniac
09-14-2006, 04:11 PM
That's really wonderful, Chris! :) Good for you. Well, I like this RP course. I feel I have a much stronger RP after doing the first few drills and tests. I'm almost done with Level 1. Now I'm taking both RP and PP and I'm waiting for PP to crystallize.

c_n12
09-21-2006, 12:50 AM
No one's posted in a while. How's everyone doing? :)

jazzmaniac
09-21-2006, 02:23 AM
Hi, how's everyone? Still doing those drills? How are you Chris and Elcon?

Elcon
09-21-2006, 08:42 PM
Exercises are going great.

I have improved well these last few days.

Now I am able to do the MC22 for a 20 minute session without mistakes. I rarely make a mistake now, but I often need another good listen for tones.

All that needs to happen is for it to become easy now.

My Aurall Recall has not been much better I think. Progression is quite slow on that, but I am still working on it aswell.

How are you doing Jazzy, anybody?

Take care,

Elcon

c_n12
09-21-2006, 10:20 PM
Better...I'm still not through MC 7 but I'm averaging about %95 of my VR so I'm getting close and I'm on the right path so I'm happy! :)

By the way Jazz, how's the RP going?

jazzmaniac
09-23-2006, 07:46 AM
I haven't been consistent (schedule-wise) with my RP and PP course lately because my time is snatched by another activity. I can say it's both good and bad. Good because I'm not "trying" so hard to gain PP quickly like I used to before. And bad at the same time because I have to do the drills regularly on a daily basis to get the results and not let my ear become lazy again. But I noticed that my ear has never been the same as when I first started the course. Now I can say I have color discrimination but it needs to be polished to perfection up to the point where I can have all the "levels" there are in PP. I've got a new phone that I carry with me everywhere, it has a tuner, I often check myself when I feel like doing so. When I hear a tone anywhere or even thinking something I would often check myself on the tuner, I'm glad to say that I'm getting better.

Hope to hear more from you guys. Keep it up and let those ears get the massage they need. :)

Elcon
09-23-2006, 11:28 PM
Still struggling through MC22, but as I have noted I am able to do some sessions without mistakes. So far I have not been having more then three or four mistakes per session which take about 30 minutes.

Funny thing is that the mistakes I have been making so far are not the usual ones. Some of these are made because of insufficient attention.

I seem to have developed a weird perception for the tones A and D.
Somehow they sound really odd, yet I instantly know their identity upon hearing.

Also the tone C has become strange sounded, which inturn results in having difficulties in instant and/or fast(er) responding and correct answering.
Actually thinking about it, most of the tones have appeared to become sort of different since I got "better" (making far less mistakes).

It must be part of the increased progression of my development, I hope.

Take care,

Elcon

pianomarten
09-24-2006, 11:51 AM
Im also struggling with MC22 and it took me from november last year to get there.

Elcon
09-24-2006, 09:49 PM
Well, you got there eventually right, pianomarten?

So how good are you at it now?
Or did you mean to say that you still make a few mistakes here and there as I do now?

How has your perception of sounds become outside of practice now?

I really notice how it is yet very much timbre related. Some timbres I get easy as in not putting any effort into identifying, it just comes.
With other timbres I need to actively listen and others are really hard to get.

Take care,

Elcon

c_n12
09-25-2006, 06:15 PM
My updates are that I finally passed MC 7...I discovered I hadn't actually been listening for the colors the way I should have and I was relying much too heavily on relative pitch. And once I started absorbing and taking in the uniqueness of each tone it has become much clearer over the last few days and I'm doing much better!


P.S - Jazz - I was just curious what your experince is with the RP course?

Do you find it harder/easier/ect to jump into the course with some degree of PP?

Do you find the exerceses steadily relying less and less on your PP as the course is moving along?

:)

pianomarten
10-02-2006, 08:47 PM
Well, you got there eventually right, pianomarten?

So how good are you at it now?
Or did you mean to say that you still make a few mistakes here and there as I do now?

How has your perception of sounds become outside of practice now?

I really notice how it is yet very much timbre related. Some timbres I get easy as in not putting any effort into identifying, it just comes.
With other timbres I need to actively listen and others are really hard to get.

Take care,

Elcon
Yes, I still make a lot of mistakes here and there!
Out of practice i get lost, even with chords in music. With only one tone anywhere on the piano I'm fine.
I have noticed that the piches gets clearer than before in this lesson, I mean you can't relying on RP anymore

Elcon
10-02-2006, 11:20 PM
It has been quiet here for the past few days, but hey, I am still hardcore exercising my ears to the fullest and it has been paying off as I have noticed.

So funny, I have been making more and more mistakes lately, but I notice great results outside of practice. I sense that my hearing is much more refined or sensitive for pitches. Also my Active-AP has improved although I have not been working on it anymore, on a concious level atleast.

I even feel as if I can get many other timbres aswell.

Two days ago I was able to do a 100 times correctly with Tone Quiz on MC22.

I have not been able to do that again, but I can get above 40 to 50 times straight at various sessions now.

And man, the mistakes I make are yet still alot, many actually.

Pianomarten, you say you cannot use RP at MC22?

I believe you can and sometimes I still do, but I try not to though.

I may hear one tone within that chord that I am pretty darn sure of what it may be. If I have trouble on one or both other tones I just go up or down the scale to get it. But I really feel like cheating when doing that, so I avoid that method unless I really want to get it for some odd reason.

Another thing I did is to mentally pitch the tone a semi-tone down. This is actually still perfect pitch I believe (Active-AP), but I too stopped doing this aswell.

I remember a post message on a forum about this guy that always had PP as far as he could remember. He rates hiself as an AP-1, because he feels he has a really good PP, but he did admit that sometimes when he does not know what a tone is, he metally pitches it up or down to be able to ID the tone.

Infact, as I did say it is still perfect pitch, I too believe that in doing so you are using PP to do a RP task. Get what I am saying?

Because you still compare it kind of, right?
You would compare the outer perception with the inner mental fixed scale of pitches.

I hope you other guys are doing good, on anything in your life
and what is not... Well, it may be our lesson if this lifetime :)

Take care,

Elcon

c_n12
10-08-2006, 05:46 PM
So how's everyone doing on there training? :)

Elcon
10-15-2006, 12:52 PM
I had been waiting for other's replies, but in vain.

What's up people?

Man, as I do believe to get better each time, I still have alot of trouble in practicing with TQ. I don't get it. It is like I am not getting better at it.

Yet, I am getting better outside of practice. I can hear more clearly now, it improves continuesly.
Weird still.

Take care,

Elcon

pianomarten
10-18-2006, 11:29 AM
I have a problem! when a do a single note i'm fine, even in the morning and even if my whife playing it for me at random. But it is like am relating every tone to C or F#. so if I hear a Bb its like im hearing it's a 3rd abow F# (without counting and nothing to relate to).
I'ts like I have a problem to seperate the RP from the AP. In MC22 when you mix the whites and the blacks I get lost and even in real music I cant hear anything, only like I recognize some notes but cant place it.
Do you have any tip for me Elcon? or maybe we should take it in private?
/Pianomarten

pianomarten
10-18-2006, 04:43 PM
I haven't been consistent (schedule-wise) with my RP and PP course lately because my time is snatched by another activity. I can say it's both good and bad. Good because I'm not "trying" so hard to gain PP quickly like I used to before. And bad at the same time because I have to do the drills regularly on a daily basis to get the results and not let my ear become lazy again. But I noticed that my ear has never been the same as when I first started the course. Now I can say I have color discrimination but it needs to be polished to perfection up to the point where I can have all the "levels" there are in PP. I've got a new phone that I carry with me everywhere, it has a tuner, I often check myself when I feel like doing so. When I hear a tone anywhere or even thinking something I would often check myself on the tuner, I'm glad to say that I'm getting better.

Hope to hear more from you guys. Keep it up and let those ears get the massage they need. :)
what phone do you have? with a tuner........

Elcon
10-18-2006, 05:07 PM
Yes, "Pianomarten" what you had described as relating a tone to some other tone(s) was familiar to me aswell.

I have been using the David Lucas Burge's PP course and he also talks about this. It is not a bad thing, but it may work against you and probably when getting to MC22.

I too had much trouble being able to hear each tone correctly and not getting confused when combining the white and black keys.

There was this one little thing I did and within a few minutes I got it.
It was very simple:

I would blindly play, on my keyboard, a random three tone chord (2 white keys, 1 black key)

Then I would have one hand to play the black key and one of the white keys, with the other hand I would go from the questioned white key down the C major scale until I thought I had recognized a tone.

Then I would go up to the tone again moving upwards still until I would have reached tone C up an octave. I would go back and forth until I could really hear it well enough. I would do this for the other white key and for the black key I would only use the black keys. Going up and down for me to hear where I am at.

This would clarify for me what the tones were. It worked very effectively for me.

Let me see if I can make a better picture for you if I have not been clear enough.

Random tone chord: E4, F#4, A4

Left hand plays: F#4 and A4

Right hand plays: E4
Right hand playing: E4 D4 C4 B3 A3 G3 and so on until I would recognize a tone. Then I would go up to the C that belongs to the same octave as the questioned tone which is the forth octave right?

Right hand playing: C D E F G A B C back again C B A G F E D C
Occasionally I would go back and forth: C D E, E D C and so on.

For the black key, using eighter hand which is more comfortable:
F# Eb C# going further down until I would recognize where I am at if neccecary. Going up again starting the 'back and forth action' at C#.
That makes; C# Eb F# Ab Bb

I hope this is to understood.

The thing is that I would give my ear the neccecary treatment in order to get the tones identified. Back then I heared in scales, so I would give my scales.

Nowadays I do not hear in this matter anymore.
I don't hear this "phantom" C in my mind as I used too. I still recognize some scale pattern (RP) when working with TQ. It may help me to respond faster, but it does not particulary help me to ID the tones correctly. RP is good in any key so it is not to be relied on in identifiying tones.

I have been doing better lately. I was working improperly I think, going through it much too fast, which did not give me enough time to really hear the tones clearly. I take more time on each tone now and it helps alot.

Take care,

Elcon

pianomarten
10-18-2006, 05:31 PM
Thanks, I'll try it!
Just one question. Did you play the other tones simultaneosly when you went up and down the scale?

Elcon
10-18-2006, 08:06 PM
Did you play the other tones simultaneosly when you went up and down the scale?

Excuse me on that, I did ment to mention that.

Yes, I did play all 3 tones simultaneously when I would use one tone to go up and down the scale.

Good luck on it!

Elcon

pianomarten
10-19-2006, 06:56 AM
Elcon wrote:
"Nowadays I do not hear in this matter anymore.
I don't hear this "phantom" C in my mind as I used too."

When did this stopped? was it after the mc22?
/pianomarten

Elcon
10-20-2006, 08:10 PM
No, I guess in some earlier MC's. It just went away after some time I think.

It is not a bad thing I believe. I think the ear will, at some time, adjust to the most efficient way of ID tones. Probably that is without hearing these "phantom tones".

Take care,

Elcon

silent-storm
10-21-2006, 08:06 AM
seeing as this thread has taken on a life of it's own, I thought I'd chime in with a piece of advice for people that are well on their way to gaining perfect pitch.

There are many computer programs that aren't made for perfect pitch but can be put to great use in order to gain it, especially if you don't have anyone to test you. Most of them are also free. If you are getting confident in your ability to name most of the 12 pitches, find any program that has relative pitch interval training. Most tests will give you the starting note, but just don't look at it and voila you have perfect pitch training. The best part about this is that you can usually change what instrument is playing the interval, which is great if you can only hear stuff on piano.

The down side is that you have to be pretty confident with all 12 notes. That's why I think the best thing I've come across is just working with a basic notation program. (I haven't used it, but I know that finale notepad is free) You can set up completely random sequences of notes, set it to a slow playback, sit back and try to guess the notes. If you need to hear C often, or every other note, you can do that. If you only want white notes, you can do that. You can work on specific ranges. You can speed things up to make it harder. You can choose from dozens of instruments to play it back. The possibilities are pretty limitless. Just make it long enough so that you can sit down with the same track multiple times and not have to change things around much. But I guess once you get confident with all 12 notes, you can just click a button and transpose the stuff to come up with a new test.

Anyways, just something I wish I had figured out when I first started doing all this stuff.

MattW
10-21-2006, 10:45 AM
seeing as this thread has taken on a life of it's own, I thought I'd chime in with a piece of advice for people that are well on their way to gaining perfect pitch.

There are many computer programs that aren't made for perfect pitch but can be put to great use in order to gain it, especially if you don't have anyone to test you. Most of them are also free. If you are getting confident in your ability to name most of the 12 pitches, find any program that has relative pitch interval training. Most tests will give you the starting note, but just don't look at it and voila you have perfect pitch training. The best part about this is that you can usually change what instrument is playing the interval, which is great if you can only hear stuff on piano.

The down side is that you have to be pretty confident with all 12 notes. That's why I think the best thing I've come across is just working with a basic notation program. (I haven't used it, but I know that finale notepad is free) You can set up completely random sequences of notes, set it to a slow playback, sit back and try to guess the notes. If you need to hear C often, or every other note, you can do that. If you only want white notes, you can do that. You can work on specific ranges. You can speed things up to make it harder. You can choose from dozens of instruments to play it back. The possibilities are pretty limitless. Just make it long enough so that you can sit down with the same track multiple times and not have to change things around much. But I guess once you get confident with all 12 notes, you can just click a button and transpose the stuff to come up with a new test.

Anyways, just something I wish I had figured out when I first started doing all this stuff.

Nice ideas, thanks! The way I do this is to record the notes individually on my computer, save them with the appropriate file name then enqueue them all in winamp, put it into 'shuffle' mode (or queue loads of them and randomise the order), then press play...voila! Random tones played on your own instrument. :)

Gstring
10-21-2006, 11:22 AM
So how's everyone doing on there training? :)

I have been too busy with work etc to maintain my daily practice schedule.

Luckily I won't be so busy over the coming months.

I started my RP course from the 5th intervals today and will aim for 10 - 15 minutes practice per day.

I'll let you all know how I'm doing in a week or two.

It's nice to be back.

Elcon
10-22-2006, 12:02 AM
Eartraining is going great.
I have improved so much for the past few days, it is almost incredible!

I just figured, by the way, that trying to answer in order from bottom up actually helped me alot in giving correct answers. I now make far less mistakes then before. At least, for now...

I used to just answer what I would hear first. I am talking about the three tone chords here. Perhaps it is all so simple you know, just by trying to hear in a particular order you focus/concentrate better so I make less mistakes.

Also did I take two days going through the exercise very slowly. Listening to the tones again and again, before answering.
And then, after I answered, I listened some more.

Eventually, I did notice that it blurred my perception at some point, meaning that I got totally thrown off by what I would hear. That's when I got back to answering on instant perception, YET (very important) to answer from bottom up.

How good have you become at perfect pitch "Silent-Storm"?
Still on it, improving and stuff?

Take care,

Elcon

jazzmaniac
10-22-2006, 04:32 PM
So, how's everyone doing now? Man, it's been long since I last checked this thread! I'm not very consistent with my practice now because of some other activity, but like I said before my pitch discrimination is still there and I think is improving even without "practicing" or sitting down doing all the drills. I use my tuner in my phone (by the way, it's a Sony Ericsson W300i - my girlfriend gave me as a birthday present) to check myself whenever I feel like doing it. I can now identify the key of a piece just by listening, chords too, but sometimes I could make mistakes of course. I hope I'll be able to find time to go back to doing the drills and be more confident with my perfect pitch.

Elcon
10-22-2006, 11:14 PM
Pretty cool Jazz!

Already you are able to ID the key of a piece?

I believe I did say that I can do it aswell, but not always no.
But that's a timbre issue, if I am not able to do so though.

Take care,

Elcon

silent-storm
10-22-2006, 11:20 PM
How good have you become at perfect pitch "Silent-Storm"?
Still on it, improving and stuff?
Elcon

well, I haven't worked on it for over a year and I never got to the point where it happened all the time regardless of what I was listening to, so to be honest I kind of lost a bit of it.

Been toying with the idea of getting back into it. But the energy I'd need to put into it, so I could get to the point where I could use it all the time and maintenance would no longer be an issue, might be better used else where at the moment. Gotta have priorities.

Elcon
10-24-2006, 12:28 AM
Yeah, I feel ya.

I have become pretty good now, but I have a lot more to go through before I'll be able to say "Hey, I have developed full Perfect Pitch"

I now, again, start to sense how each tone is starting to become sort of different. They become more unique in a way.

Though this is a good thing, it is also harder to ID them at times.
It's like I eighter just know what the tones are or I get confused and/or desoriented, because I just cannot give it a place in the chromatic scale.
It's like I am hearing new tones that neighter belong anywhere on the scale at all.

I am doing good though, I can now get about a 100 times correct if I keep my head to it and listen carefully.
It is yet a bit more difficult to just do it quickly and not make too many mistakes. I can easily be a semi-tone off if I do not pay enough attention.

Take care,

Elcon

Gstring
10-25-2006, 03:45 PM
Well I am stuck in the first lightening round atm.

The exercises are progressing fine. The spelling exercises are easy because I did a lot of theory when I was younger.

So the intervals I am doing now are P5, P4 & M3.

The lightening round only involves P5 & P4 ( and 8vas ) but they are played fast and you have to instantly recognise them. I got most but you can only have 1 strike or less in order to pass. Nevermind it'll come.

We are way from tomorrow afternoon ( Thursday ) till Sunday evening so I can only do the exercises again on Monday. Bummer cause I was busy for a while and did not do them at all then. I have done the exercises daily for about the last week or so.

Maybe I'll end up singing under the shower. :eek:

Gstring
10-26-2006, 09:30 AM
Well you may remember me saying that my wife has an excellent ear...much better then mine. However I let her do the lightening round last night on her own ( whilst I was at college ) and by her own admitance she made a few mistakes.

We tested each other on Harmonic P5, P4 lightening rounds on acoustic guitar and I got more right then she did !!

I am really going to pump my ear today so that it can have a good break over the weekend.

How is everyone else doing whether its PP or RP ??

Have a nice weekend all. :)

mansouros
11-02-2006, 02:28 AM
nice topic you got here

i have a question 4 u guys, during the first excerizes David instructed in his lessons, when u were listening the way he told u to lesson.. did some of you guys expereince a strange sound replacing the sound of the note, for example if u were on "G" and ur meditating on it, do u notice a sudden change of sound everyonce in a while? not a change of tone but the sound becomes a little wierd at least to me it did.... btw it only happenes if i'm repeating a single note, or chord (to unlock) over and over again..

if you guys never expereinced it, is this normal during this training, or should i go check with an ear doctor? i truly hope that this is just my ear is becoming more open..

Elcon
11-02-2006, 01:36 PM
I guess I know what you mean when saying that the tone may start to sound weird or something when meditating...

I do experience this still only not mentally, but upon actual hearing it.

Since we have not yet become too familiar and acquainted with these tones, they may seem to differ at times.

I do not think that an AP-1 experiences these "aural illusions" regularly.
But it occurs at times. It was an "born-with" AP-1, with over 40 years of musical experience, to hear a tone and not know what it is. He then says to mentally go up or down the scale to figure it out.

Take care,

Elcon

mansouros
11-03-2006, 11:57 PM
thanx elcon that really does explain alot :)

a friend of mine told me it's nothing to worry about, and eventually the pitch will take over...

Elcon
11-04-2006, 01:19 AM
And how is everybody else doing?

I recently, 4 days ago, noticed that I had been correcting my error the wrong way for the past few months.

In just these 4 days my hearing got a good boost.

It's amazing what things can do to the ear. I now hear the tones within the chords with such more clarity and precision. Wonderful, is it not?

What I did wrong?

I used to compare only the chords and listen attentively for the wrong and correct tone within those chords.
Now I compare them isolated and I noticed a difference in perception that very same session when I started doing so.

Take care,

Elcon

c_n12
11-04-2006, 10:04 PM
Hey everyone!

I stopped recieving e-mails for some reason about respones and forgot about the forum :( -- It's wonderful to hear your all doing so well!! :) I'm near done with harmonic doubles on MC 9. Keep wishing it would go faster but it's still progress and I notice a vast difference from when I began...Particulary in listening to music witha piano in it. I notice not just the piano melody but I hear the harmony in the background blending in now as well and It adds so much beauty to the music...HOW COULD ANYONE EVER SAY THEY WOULDN'T APPRECIATE MUSIC AS MUCH WITH PP?!...I personally can not wait to hear how wonderful music will sound following my completion of MC23...best of luck to you all as well and best wishes! :)

Elcon
11-06-2006, 03:30 PM
Today I noticed something odd.

When doing my daily same ol' exercise, I often start to make an error when getting over 30 answers correct. Then I go over again, same thing.

Today I tried something.
I choose to reset the score when reaching 20 correct and in doing so I just did 3 x 20 in a row. That does make 60 in total yes.
Note: I did not mess up on the 4th, I just stopped to write this post.

So...Why is this?
Maybe I get nervous or exited and that effects my responses?

Now I wonder what to do best.

Shall I continue without resetting the score?
Perhaps to overcome this nervousness or exitement.

Or reset after 20 and start over?

I myself think I should just continue.
Not only to overcome the possibility of getting nervous or exited, but I too believe that when I get the opportunity to compare tones (which I only do when I make a mistake) makes my hearing more accurate and gives more confidence. It should not hurt to listen to the difference between tones. I mean, if you know them already great, but if you don't then listen some more.
Why not listen some more anyway, right?

What do you think and why so?

Take care,

Elcon

Elcon
11-25-2006, 08:40 PM
Anywayz...

I came in to say that my "semi-tone issue" is getting much less now. Or should I say better? ...the issue is getting better, yes, not worse :)

English, you know.

By the way, I am trying to keep up with my Active-AP development and I think I can notice some slight improvement now. It just goes so slowly.

Take care,

Elcon

JimmyRare
12-06-2006, 11:43 PM
I just wish I had the motivation to do the course... I have the courset, but I just need that kick in my *** to get started. Please kick me.

c_n12
12-07-2006, 01:45 AM
I can't kick you to start man...only you can do that. All I can tell you is, if you want it badly enough you'll go for it. It's a skill you will absolutley love and once before your even done with MC12 you'll be able to hear differences between the notes. For some, each class gets done in three or four days while for some, like me, it can take a month or two to master each section. When I first started I was CERTAIN my ear was never going to open up because I was able to tell a C and D but once even one note was added (E) I was lost. But I kept pushing onward knowing and trusting what David Lucas said that even the most stubborn ear opens eventually. Now I can tell the entire C major scale with little to no problems. I would highly recommend eliminating all revealing stimulit and work with a computer program called ToneQuiz which forces you to work soely by hearing the notes and nothing else (I.E. no keys to feel or finger placements to give the note away.) Also I can tell you that if it takes you longer to learn it that can be better because when you know it, your mind will know it a lot better because of all the time you had to invest. Also, It gives you a new ability (Perfect pitch aside) to hear the details in music. Like in a song with a piano, you'll begin to notice the trebble and bass parts and hear the indivdual notes within the chords. You'll also start to notice more subtle things in music like the opening and closing of a hi-hat on a drumset as well as bass lines. Your ear gains the ability to hear every minute detail within the music but man I can give you all the kicks you want because I went through hell learning PP timewise. But what I can tell you is this, if you really want it badly enough, you'll be driven to it.

Hope that helps,

Chris Nosal :)

JimmyRare
12-07-2006, 02:12 AM
Thank you c n12 for your quick response. I really want it, thanks for kicking me. Tomorrow when I wake up I will immediatly go for it and see for how long i can manage to keep up the practice routine.
It's good to hear that you actually developed a good ear!
Thanks once again. See you.
I will keep track of this forum from now on. :)

I have tried to reach the tonequiz site, but it seems down? Anyone have an idea where else I can get it?

Elcon
12-07-2006, 11:27 AM
Just checked the website and I too could not get on.

Yes, there are other websites where you can download TQ, but I won't know any reliable ones though.

Try some other software in the meantime like EarMaster Pro 5, which I used a few days ago. It was an exiting experience as I had more trouble with the timbre somehow. The first 2x 30 minutes I was off by a semitone often, but then I got better at it.

And what surprised me most is that I could identify up to 6-tone chords, though I have to mention that I had missed the sixth tone sometimes.

I had selected all options of questioned chords and gave it a go. So that meant that I would not know how many tones I would get each question, because there are 3, 4, 5 and 6 tone chords.

Take care,

Elcon

JimmyRare
12-07-2006, 12:17 PM
i actually have Earmaster Pro 5. Started yesterday with a few exercises. This is only for relative pitch, right?

Maybe that's a good spot to start?

Should I go through Earmaster Pro before doing David's PP-course?

c_n12
12-07-2006, 12:28 PM
I have tried to reach the tonequiz site, but it seems down? Anyone have an idea where else I can get it?

It's a really small file, only a few kilobytes. What's your e-mail adress? I'll e-mail the program to you. :)

JimmyRare
12-07-2006, 12:37 PM
It's a really small file, only a few kilobytes. What's your e-mail adress? I'll e-mail the program to you. :)

jimmy_rare@hotmail.com

Please feel free to add me on msn if you use it.

Elcon
12-07-2006, 04:12 PM
You can unselect some options in EarMaster like not seeing the starting tone of each question given.

EarMaster may be used for Relative as Perfect pitch I believe, but with a good developed RP, once you know one tone you can figure out all other tones, so the option of unselecting the image of the starting tone won't help much in that matter.

It is hard to tell if I am using RP or PP when identifying tones.
I hope it is PP, but if not...no sweat for me.

For what I know is that I never need to hear a starting tone to get me started on identifying tones. I can wake up, turn on the computer or whatever and start immediately and be cool.

Sure, I do know that when my computer is starting up it beeps in Bb twice. It is a timbre I am not too comfortable with, but I am positive I am not referencing to that tone.

Several times I have tried to learn some intervals, but I do not seem to have patience with it. I have trouble hearing the interval sound that is so essential in identifying intervals. When I hear an interval, I hear the tones, have them identified and then count the interval. But that's not the RP way I suppose.

You can just work on the Burge's PP course alright. No need to go through those RP exercises, though they might do you good if you will.

Take care,

Elcon

JimmyRare
12-08-2006, 10:07 AM
Ok, I will have it a try.

It's obvious you're using PP and not RP.
You say you cant hear the interval sound and instead you count between the tones you hear.

I can hear the sound of the intervals, only it is sometimes hard to hear which it is because some of them has kind of the same feeling to them. But I guess it's practice that makes the differnce bigger.

As soon as I get tonequiz I will start with David's PP course.

Another program I can recommend by the way is Ear Training Companion where you play games to develop both PP and RP.

Elcon
12-08-2006, 08:22 PM
I too have used the Eartraining Companion, I enjoyed it much, but did not continue using it since I was restricted to use tone C only.

Since some timbres give me false identities of tones, I still wonder if I have perfect pitch. Perhaps just "color hearing" as David Lucas himself says is what I have developed so far.

Many tones I identify, but I am way off the absolute tones on some timbres. That is not perfect pitch. You can be a semitone off and have perfect pitch though, that's not too uncommon for PPP's.

It's just so weird, I don't know.

Still working on Active-AP, it's amazingly tough but I need to stick to it and hope I'll improve more.

Take care,

Elcon

jazzmaniac
12-11-2006, 02:30 AM
Hi everyone! So, how's everyone doing in here now? How's your PP and RP? For some reasons, I too stopped receiving mails from this forum informing me of responses. I stopped doing the lessons and drills, because of some activity, I hope to be back doing them next month. I'll see if I would have PP completely. Take care all.

Elcon
12-11-2006, 01:27 PM
Here we are, all working on achieving or refining our own abilities and there comes in "mansouros".

What's up!

Since you say to have trouble understanding why I could mess up on tones after some succesful tries, it made me wonder how you could also write:

"what you are experiencing is impossible to be identiefied as perfect pitch"

Once more, for all you to read, I don't give a care what the ability I have already developed is named; perfect pitch, relative pitch, hopeless pitch, no-pitch, accidental pitch etc.

Though I am very pleased and excited about my development at this moment, assuming that it yet could be perfect pitch, I would like to get a full scientific acceptable and reliabe report why it would not be.

Mansouros did not help me out at all, he only expressed himself towards me about what he believes is going on.

The following suggestion about the David Lucas PP course, I have already done, various times.

Repeating the exercises from any Masterclass does not change or alter my already developed pitch perception. This may be a good or bad thing.

This could have become an interesting discussion I would have liked to get into some more, but mansouros did not achieve that for me.
Perhaps you should think about it some more and post again.

Take care,

Elcon

mansouros
12-11-2006, 02:15 PM
Here we are, all working on achieving or refining our own abilities and there comes in "mansouros".

What's up!

Since you say to have trouble understanding why I could mess up on tones after some succesful tries, it made me wonder how you could also write:

"what you are experiencing is impossible to be identiefied as perfect pitch"

Once more, for all you to read, I don't give a care what the ability I have already developed is named; perfect pitch, relative pitch, hopeless pitch, no-pitch, accidental pitch etc.

Though I am very pleased and excited about my development at this moment, assuming that it yet could be perfect pitch, I would like to get a full scientific acceptable and reliabe report why it would not be.

Mansouros did not help me out at all, he only expressed himself towards me about what he believes is going on.

The following suggestion about the David Lucas PP course, I have already done, various times.

Repeating the exercises from any Masterclass does not change or alter my already developed pitch perception. This may be a good or bad thing.

This could have become an interesting discussion I would have liked to get into some more, but mansouros did not achieve that for me.
Perhaps you should think about it some more and post again.

Take care,

Elcon
First off i'd like to start out by apologizing..

but what counts is my intention i left you a suggestion that i truly believed in, even if my suggestion didnt help you, you didn't have to bash me like that at all.

i still dont' see how my post is so bad.

i see your point though, it doesn't matter aslong as your ear is getting better :)

i apologize for coming at you like that

and good luck with the training.

i've deleted the post

Elcon
12-11-2006, 03:48 PM
In return I am sorry for letting my reply on mansouro's comment, which he has deleted, respond in such a way.

For me there was no necessity or even thoughts on erasing a post once posted. It is what makes this forum what it is, erasing them does not do any good in my perception.

Mansouros, you had expressed yourself for your good (or bad) reasons which you were free to do. Anyone that would have been insulted or hurt by any line of words is again free to comment back on it. But moreover I believe that this forum is to fuel oneother to reply, to keep this forum active.

A healthy, supporting and challenging exchange of posts it should be.

Your, mansouros, last deleted post was one of those. It was enough fuel for me to reply back to. So, that post was not a bad one, even if it had been posted with bad intentions :)

It was not about me not having perfect pitch, that made me react this way. It's your contraction you yourself made.

If you had written:

"You definately have perfect pitch Elcon, but I have trouble understanding why you would mess up after some succesful tries"

It becomes the same thing here see?

Anyway, let's get back to our things now.

Take care,

Elcon

c_n12
01-03-2007, 03:20 PM
Hey can anyone provide me with some ear training advice for just starting on harmonic triples?

silent-storm
01-03-2007, 08:37 PM
harmonize a major scale with triads. When using root position, hear the bottom note as just being a major scale. When using first inversion, hear the top note as just being a major scale. And when using 2nd inversion (the important one) listen to the middle note and hear that as a major scale. I found that once I had this down cold, three individual notes started popping out all at the same time, which is what you want rather then trying to arpegiate up and down every chord, which is really just hearing one note at a time, rather then three.

c_n12
01-04-2007, 01:07 AM
Cool! :)

So your saying triples, like the doubles did, will eventually open up to my ear and I'll be able to hear all 3 distinct tones instead of somewhat of a jumble?

silent-storm
01-04-2007, 11:29 AM
yup, but don't think it'll be as fast. Harmonic triples took forever for me to hear and they are still pretty sketchy. My ear often gets confused as to how to catagorize which note is where. Sometimes I'll hear all three, but I wont be able to place which one is in the middle, or I'll hear one a lot stronger then others, regardless of how quietly I play it.

I'm sure you can already hear harmonic triples if they are stretched out far enough. Play them on the piano and put as many octaves as possible between each, keeping things from getting too muddy or too twinkly. All you need to work on is closing the gaps.

When I'm trying to figure them out I usually make sure I can hear the middle note before I try and do anything else, because that is the hard one.

Kris_man
01-10-2007, 09:45 AM
Would anyone be able to send me Tonequiz?

Appreciate any help.

xxxbra
01-19-2007, 08:15 AM
Could someone please send me Tone Quiz?

I would greatly appreciate it!

Thank you in advance. :)

Elcon
01-26-2007, 03:56 PM
As time went by, development was further established.

Hey all, what's up?

I have been doing great lately.
Great in everything! Eartraining aswell ofcourse.

Finally I am able to succesfully do one VR in Aurall Recall.

I can conjure up all twelve tones much clearer now then before and to my experience this has resulted in better accuracy and therefore minimize any error.

Occasionally I can be a little flat or sharp, but that does not bother me much.

Still I wish to become much better at Aurall Recall, since I am not yet fluent and always instant at it.
It is funny how I am yet unable to first conjure up a tone that I do not know by name and then to "figure out" or know its identity.

This is the other way around from actual practice where I first pick a tone name and conjure up its sound.

How is everybody else doing?

About Tone Quiz, isn't there any other source you can get it from?

Take care,

Elcon

Kris_man
01-27-2007, 08:20 AM
^ I think I found it:

http://www.linnetwoods.com/fun_with_freeware_1/learning/tonequiz.html

Elcon
01-28-2007, 01:55 AM
Yeah, that's it!

c_n12
02-02-2007, 12:56 AM
For anyone who wants to download ToneQuiz I have uploaded it to my personal online storage anyone who's interested can download it here (http://h1.ripway.com/Nosal/TQ.EXE)...enjoy! :)

Evander
02-03-2007, 04:10 PM
Can anyone give me some advice on relative pitch course 1.
I just can't get through the singing fifths test. I can sing perfect fifth correctly from an above note to lower, but I just can't seem to sing them from low to high. I can sing them perfectly along my guitar but they're always a little sharp or flat when I have to sing them cold. I've been training 20min/day for over a week now :(
Thanks in advance and sorry about my english.

sunneyboy
02-08-2007, 09:59 PM
hi there i have been following this thread for quite some time ihave been working on the PP course for a coupe of months and have now reached master class 13 . so here it goes how much do you guys do your inner ear meditations . do you use it along with your drills everyday or every other day and do you feel it has helped you progress in the course?

c_n12
02-09-2007, 03:03 AM
I don't do it every day, I do it on occassion. However, I have a stubborn ear but caught on to the meditation in fairly short order. I think that you should assess yourself. If you feel that you can confidently do the mediation then you don't really need to do it frequently but if you feel like your struggling to succeed with it I'd advise you to work until you get it down. Best of luck! :)

sunneyboy
02-09-2007, 06:39 AM
thanks i will keep at it . i will let you all know how i get on.

sunneyboy
02-15-2007, 12:58 PM
Ok its a few days since my last post i have spent a little more time on the inner ear meditatation. and this is what i am experiencing at the moment.

when i listen to a particular tone the tone starts to break down into a fewdifferent sounds .for example

using a keyboard on piano setting!
- i hear an extremely bright texture ( or super fast vibarating)
- i also hear an oscilating sound that seams to decay ( wa wa wa waaa waaa waaa)
- i also then hear a constant tone pop out that doenst seem to change fo the duration of the tone. ( i think this might be the fundamental harmonic or something i am not an expert)

now with all these different sounds happening i am finding it extremely hard to focus on what should br the tone colour!

what is timbre
what is tone colour etc.

am i experiencing this correctly or should i change the way i am thinking about what the tone colour is!

i know some people say its a feeling , well what part of the sound creates the feeling .

I am probably over analysing the whole thing . maby someone can give some advise on how to relax about the whole experience.

Elcon
02-15-2007, 03:17 PM
sunneyboy:
now with all these different sounds happening i am finding it extremely hard to focus on what should br the tone colour!


Elcon:
Somehow I kind of forgot if there was a difference between tone colour and timbre.

I understand that all these little harmonics and sounds within just one tone may confusing and disturbing. You may feel that it makes it hard to focus on the tone colour.

What I mean with tone colour, in this context, is just the tone itself, the sound it engenders.

The thing is and I know David Lucas probably mentioned focusing on the colour of the tone, but you should just listen. Listen but attentively. The word "focus" is often misunderstood. It is like you need to focus on something within that sound of the tone.
Ofcourse it is hard, extremely hard when you do not know what to listen for.
But the thing is, just to listen, with as much ease as possible infact.

What you hear, that's it. And that's all you need to get yourself going towards the goal of recognizing individual tones.

Forget about all these other sounds and harmonics you may hear within the tones. They'll drive you nuts.


What is timbre?

I know timbre is the sound of an instrument, like the sound of piano, violin, guitar.

Tone colour?

Well, tone colour is actually defined the same as timbre, it is a synonym for timbre.

I do remember it was also given another function or meaning, but I forgot.
It should not be too important in your training, just listen and try not remember what you hear eighter. It will all come to you by itself, YOURself.


sunneyboy:
am i experiencing this correctly or should i change the way i am thinking about what the tone colour is!


Elcon:
You mean all those sounds you hear in a tone?

The matter in how you experience something has also to do with how you think about the matter.
So, perhaps you should change the way of your thinking, but do not change the way you think about what tone colour is.

Tone colour is what it is.
What you think about it is your business, it will not affect what is. It will affect how you perceive it.

If you wish to perceive or experience tone colour for what it is then do not have any thoughts about it. Just accept it as it is.
Therefore I mentioned to just listen. Listen, but attentively.


sunneyboy:
i know some people say its a feeling , well what part of the sound creates the feeling .


Elcon:
Correct, some people say its a feeling, what is it to you?

You will know when you have "developed" it as you wish for. But even then you may not be able to concretely answer or know what it actually is for you. It just is, is it not?


sunneyboy:
maby someone can give some advise on how to relax about the whole experience.


Elcon:
By relaxing sunneyboy.

Do you not know how to relax?

I already gave the advice to just listen with ease. Listen with ease and comfort. Create your ideal relaxing situation and atmosphere. Do what you think and feel about it as you wish.

Take care,

Elcon

sunneyboy
02-15-2007, 04:05 PM
thanks for your indepth reply elcon , i will try be less technical about what i am hearing and let it be a more natural progression.

i guess its the frustration of wanting something to be revealed before your are actually ready . impatience! damn

relaxing( may sound funny but it may take effort)

thanks again!:)

Elcon
02-15-2007, 06:01 PM
Is it not funny how something that is natural you suddenly need to put effort into for it to become natural again?

What if I tell you that you are always ready.
I believe so, it is a matter of how to approach the subject. How to achieve something without spending much time on it.


sunneyboy:
i guess its the frustration of wanting something to be revealed before your are actually ready . impatience!


Elcon:
It is revealing itself, constantly. It was never hidden, perhaps you were.
You are hiding yourself from what is revealing itself to you.

Be open for any difference you experience. Every difference is development and is a blessing. And nothing is ever the same, never.
Notice this and be grateful for this change within you, be grateful for the fact that you know things are never the same and that it means development.


sunneyboy:
relaxing( may sound funny but it may take effort)


Elcon:
You should not be ashamed in mentioning this. Do not ever think you are the only one that has trouble relaxing. It takes a master to be truely relaxed. It may take many years to be in absolute relaxation.
Hence, true relaxation is meditation.


sunneyboy:
thanks again!


Elcon:
Thank you in return.

Do not think it is a master writing you here, I am just a student reciting a master his teachings.

Do you wanna know who this master is?

It is mySelf, it is You, it is Us.
I have yet to learn how to let these humble words be transfered into complete mastery of body, mind and soul.

Writing all this down, I do not only do you a favour but also mySelf.
It makes me aware of this knowledge to a higher degree.
It will be most pleasing when this knowledge will become our wisdom.

Take care,

Elcon

sunneyboy
02-15-2007, 07:15 PM
thank you for the encouraging words!!!!

Elcon
02-15-2007, 11:49 PM
You are welcome!

Steinberg
02-16-2007, 04:41 PM
Hey guys and girls

I'm bit new here, actually this is my first post, but I have been looking around for quiet some time.
Well, the PP course has help me to name tones, and I'm only on level 8.
I'm only able to know the tones one my piano yet.
In the beginning I was very skeptical, but now I agree, you can get perfect pitch.
It's just like removing a habit and get a new one.

LukeMusic
02-23-2007, 08:41 PM
Hi all,

I started DLB's Perfect Pitch course on January 31, 2007. I'm taking it on piano and I'm finishing up MC 6. I already passed all the VR on MC 6 and 7, but I'm going back to 6 to unlock any three notes even more.

Does anyone have problems singing in their own range? Meaning, when I play really high or really low notes I want to sing those exact notes rather then my own range. I find it hard to sing the entire chord in my own range right away.

Elcon
02-25-2007, 03:00 PM
Sure, I would have trouble singing tones not within my vocal range.

Knowing I do not have to I won't.

Steinberg
02-25-2007, 03:53 PM
Can anyone help me with RP?
I can't seem to remember the intervals, I'm only on MC 5 or so, should I worry?
I can complete the drills etc. though? :confused:

Elcon
02-25-2007, 09:39 PM
MC5 from the PP or RP course.

I don't know much about RP.
All I did for RP was using tone C as a reference for the C major scale and tone C# for the black keys.

It all came by itself, I guess.

Remembering intervals?

You could use songs you are familiar with and use some of their unique intervals. I guess it should be the very first interval of the song.

They have some info on the net about this.

I won't bother with that method, since it might mess up my internal chromatic scale. Maybe it hinders pitch discrimination development.

Good luck and take care,

Elcon

Steinberg
02-25-2007, 09:48 PM
Hey Elcon.

Well, I talking about the Relative Pitch Course.
I can do all the things David L. ask me to do, but I'm not that confident about it yet.
I'm getting frustrated, because I have just finished the first Lightning Round, but still it's not like, when I hear a piece of music, and the Perfect 5th just pops out.
Will it become clearer later on? Should I worry?

Thanks, dude.

silent-storm
02-25-2007, 10:08 PM
I'm getting frustrated, because I have just finished the first Lightning Round, but still it's not like, when I hear a piece of music, and the Perfect 5th just pops out.

Have you worked with actual music as much as you have with the drills? I'm not saying you should be spending a great deal of time at this point with actual music, but if it's not something you have done, it's not something you are going to be able to do. Having it pop out in a piece of music is atleast 10 times harder then nailing every single one in a drill. It takes a very long time for things to become clear regardless of context and instrumentation. I'm not familiar with the relative pitch course, but my guess is if you are working on 5ths you haven't covered every interval. You can't expect every 5th in a piece of music to pop out if you have no idea what else is going on. You need some context to place that 5th. In ear training, especially in the begining, you aren't looking for perfection, just improvement. No matter how clear a 5th is to you right now, at some point further down the road it will become clearer. If you work at it, this steady improvement will continue for the rest of your life. You probably can't even comprehend what a 5th will sound like 20 years from now. If you could you'd probably say "DAMN, that's the most perfect 1-5 I've ever heard!" But eventually that will become the norm and you will experience even greater moments of 1-5.

I wouldn't worry too much about actual music until you can nail every interval. Whatever level you are at, if you are improving you have nothing to worry about.

Jamerson
02-26-2007, 05:00 PM
i just completed Level 1 on the David Burge RP course, took me 55days to complete (missed practice maybe 4-5 days), i practice 30 mins a day.
I originally attempted the course about a year ago but found it too hard, so i stopped and did the "Bruce Arnold one note complete", using this it took me about 3-4 months to learn and be able to sing all the intervals. I think for complete beginner this method is a lot more accessible and i got a lot less frustrated as i could see the progress i was making.
Then i did the bruce arnold sight singing drills and finally the key note recognition, i did these bout for about 4-5 months and could then play some slower melodies that i hear on t.v, radio etc...
Because the bruce arnold method isn't IMO as thorough as the David Lucas one, I recently decided to do it and after struggling so much 1st time(year ago), i tried it and have found it fairly easy so far (only time i ever get confused in when a mistake a perfect 4th for a perfect 5th and vice-versa, being inversions of each other can make them sound the same to me when i have to recognise them at speed).

The thing i like about the path i took is that the arnold method is key/functional (identifying note in relation to the key) RP training, while the burge one is more intervallic (identifying note in relation to the previous note) and this means i can kinda double check that each note is correct, theres a great book by ron gorow on this.

p.s. I also started the PP course about 2 weeks ago, just started masterclass 7, so i'll report in the future on how im doing at this.

LukeMusic
03-05-2007, 07:24 PM
I'm on Masterclass 8 on the PP. My homework is to identify melodic (acending and decending) and harmonic thirds.

My question is, I could get 20 in a row, but I have to play them over and over and think through all the combos of what it could be sometimes before I know what it is.

I have a strong aural recall, and know the white tones by matching them up to songs I know. These thirds are harder. Should I keep with the MC until I know them all right away without thinking? Or should I go on the MC 9 because I can get 20 in a row.

Thanks

Elcon
03-06-2007, 03:23 PM
My understanding is that you should continue when you have succesfully done your required VR(s), even it took you this and that much to get through it.

He mentioned your freedom to always backtrack when you get stuck though.
Listen to the Power Points (disc 5, if I'm correct) when needed.

Take care,

Elcon

LukeMusic
03-06-2007, 03:32 PM
My understanding is that you should continue when you have succesfully done your required VR(s), even it took you this and that much to get through it.

He mentioned your freedom to always backtrack when you get stuck though.
Listen to the Power Points (disc 5, if I'm correct) when needed.

Take care,

Elcon

Yeah I was thinking that, but he also said it's not a game of math and just because you get 20 in a row isn't the point. Mentioning that you should feel you "own" the drill before moving on.

sunneyboy
03-13-2007, 02:31 PM
hey everyone i have been stuck on second excercise of masterclass 14 (4 white tones and 1 black melodically) for two and a half weeks now . cant seem to crack it somedays i do better than others but not good enough to push me on to the next excercise.

getting a bit frustrated donno if i can keep it up ! for the guys who have progressed to the later stages of the course when did you feel the course was starting to develope your pp in a usable musical sense like hearing the keys of song etc.

just need some encouragment to push on !

Padawan
03-13-2007, 02:48 PM
I've got perfect pitch and I found out that the quickest method of defining a note is to define the interval from the low e string.
I was sometimes unsure whether I hear for example an F or a F# but since I always know the sound of a low e string I take that as my basis and now I don't have this problem anymore.

Elcon
03-13-2007, 05:22 PM
MC14, identifying four white tones and one black tone melodically played.

Yes, is it hard because you play them melodically fast, too fast for your ear to catch?

I don't remember exactly how I did it, but I think I did them tone by tone and not all five tones before or while my identification of tones.

If so, try tone by tone.
One tone, identify, then the next one.

And about getting frustrated...
I know the feeling man, I wish I could take that frustration away from you, but you will have to do that yourself.

Still working on MC23 actually. I can get through the exercise, but I still make semitone errors at times and I wonder how to get rid of it for good.
I feel like just doing them again and again won't work.
It's like there is this little thing I need to do and then it's gone, forever!


Take care,

Elcon

LukeMusic
03-13-2007, 05:31 PM
Elcon--maybe writing to David Lucas' company that deals with questions. They have info on where to send questions somewhere on the MC's or website I think.


I also have a question. Been on MC 8 (piano) for a couple weeks. I can ideantify both acending and decending melodic thirds, but the harmonic is still not solid. I did pass an identification round of harmonic, but I don't feel I "own them" like LCB says. Should I work them until I can get each one right away? I was the same way with the melodics but now I know them all right away, so maybe my ear still needs to open up with these harmonics.

sunneyboy
03-13-2007, 05:40 PM
thanks elcon i have been doing the excercise a note at a time

i think the frustration comes from getting alot correct eg 25 in a row and then bam a mistake i think i just need to keep working to break through that threshold will keep ya all posted on my progress

Elcon
03-13-2007, 11:39 PM
Yes, I have contacted the DLB PP course by email various times already.
They just told me to keep on practicing and it will come in time. Well, maybe I should write them again, because I have been on it for more then a year now.

Like I mentioned, I can do the exercise. I once did over a hundred times correct, but usually start to fail when I pass over 80 times correct.

But I can also fail on my second try or my fifth, tenth, you name.
I do get the first one right most of the time though, that's not a problem.

Whenever I got stuck on previous MC's, I would try to use RP or anything else that could get me through the VR's. But this thing is different, I have no clue but to listen more and more.

I am doing better already since this afternoon, I always get better and that's so much the truth. I should not complain.

Work on each drill as much as you need to, but don't overdo it when you have already succesfully done your VR's. (Burge's words)


Take care,

Elcon

LukeMusic
03-14-2007, 12:13 AM
I passed my VR on harmonic thirds. Can't wait for MC 9 tomorrw.

:D

Elcon
03-14-2007, 04:50 PM
For a long time I had figured out a way to minimize my errors in eartraining.
So easy and simple has it always been, but I always seemed to fall back on my unsuccesfull method; answer immediately what I hear.

Just about 30 minutes ago I tried again, MC23. Not to answer on my first hearing, but to listen again, attentively and with better care for each tone.

Wanna know how much I did without making any mistake?

I got up to a 105 times correct, then I thought about taking a break.
Hundred and five times and I could have go on if I wanted to!

As we all know, perfect pitch is defined as an ability to instantaneously and efforlessly know the precise musical tone out of many others in the musical scale.

Since then I had thought it should be practiced that way,
(and maybe it should for best results in perfect pitch development)
I listen, I hear and answer immediately.

How do we practice perfect pitch efficiently and to the according measurements?

What is it about?

Is it about this very first "impression" or "hearing" and answering?
or
Is it about listening again, attentively and with care to the distinct quality of each tone?

One thing I know is that listening with better care results in making far less or no mistakes at all. I, myself, conclude this result as positive progress in tone discrimination.


Take care,

Elcon

LukeMusic
03-14-2007, 05:11 PM
Right, it makes sense.

If you wanted to learn a Beethoven Sonata, you wouldn't try and learn it at performance tempo playing from start to finish, you play sections slowly until they are perfect, then speed them up.

Glad to hear your progress Elcon.

:)

Elcon
03-14-2007, 08:43 PM
And you know what, I just did another 100.
Yeah, it feels good I tell ya.

Though I have to make a very important remark here.
It is about Tone Quiz, whoever is using it.

I am using 5 octaves; octave 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6.
Octave 1, 7 and 8 are too vague for me to hear properly. Actually, octave 7 is okay, but I did not add that one to my daily practice routine.

Now comes the important thing.

When I got to 49 times, I thought I had messed up.
I got this 3 tone chord and, I forgot the first tone, the other two tones were high tones G and Ab. So, something like C#3, G6 and Ab6.

Now, I had a very tough time trying to figure out whether I heard G and Ab or F# and G. I listened many times, but for some reason I heard all three; F#, G and Ab. I don't remember if I also heard A, maybe vaguely.

So, I had to make a decision and chose F# and G.
Wrong...BUT!!!

Since I was quite convinced this time that I did hear all three, I listened to it again. And yes, when I played a single F# (on another program) and then (on TQ) played the chord I could hear that it was right in between F# and G. That's why I could not figure it out!

For some reason, when there two tones that are right next to eachother are played in a higher octave (and I am starting to believe the lowest ones aswell) create other illusive tones. Or they mess up the actual tones being played, I don't know. And third, maybe it is just me, my own ear.

I tell ya, I had constantly made mistakes when I got these higher close-toghether tones being played. I always had to sort of guess oneanother.
Now you and I know, so be aware please!

I had to start over and did another 50 to make up for a hundred.


Take care,

Elcon

LukeMusic
03-15-2007, 07:33 PM
Haha, here is a parody I just made of DLB's questions and answers on the Perfect Pitch course. Enjoy!

http://download.yousendit.com/E53EE55268B57D89

Elcon
03-16-2007, 12:21 AM
That was quite funny Luke, I'd like to hear more sometime...

I just did another "good" session, I stopped at 205 times correct on MC23 with TQ.

Although it's quite alot it was not always easy. For some reason particular tones were extremely confusing at times.

Take care,

Elcon

roy_l
03-18-2007, 03:11 PM
The relative pitch course is great!!

I used to use it in the past... then quit..
Now I started using it again.

Gstring
03-20-2007, 04:08 PM
The relative pitch course is great!!

I used to use it in the past... then quit..
Now I started using it again.

Yes I have been busy for a few months ( work / exams etc ) but I am back now. I started on the RP course again today.

I started with Major 3rds since that is where I left off last time. I had my first session today.

Am I happy to be back - you bet !! :D

Wesley
03-20-2007, 05:40 PM
I am finding it incredibly tough to sit there and listen to the guy. Sometimes I wish he would just get to the point instead of trying to convince me why perfect pitch and relative pitch is so great and important.


Sigh...

sunneyboy
03-28-2007, 10:12 AM
That was quite funny Luke, I'd like to hear more sometime...

I just did another "good" session, I stopped at 205 times correct on MC23 with TQ.

Although it's quite alot it was not always easy. For some reason particular tones were extremely confusing at times.

Take care,

Elcon
elcon it sounds like you are doing great! do you feel that you are able to utilize your developing skill in a practical sense yet ! while playing composing or other situations.

i have just completed masterclass 14 and had a listen to 15(no excercise there) and i have moved on to master class 16. quite interesting been doing it for a few days and its going pretty well i cant help but approach this excercise from a purely relative pitch perspective. playing a major chord and then any black tone my ear always relates the black tone to key in which the major chord is in eg. if i play an e maj chord i cant help but hear Bb as the #11 tension in relation to the E maj chord. oh well hope i am doing it correct.

will keep you all posted on my progress

Elcon
03-28-2007, 10:32 AM
The only thing that would not be correct in working with the PP course is when you would look at the keys you play in order to flawlessly answer the questions.

However you get the tone is just fine. You know it is Burge himself who stimulates you to use RP as much as you need to.

I also hear with RP, but I cannot name what it is I am experiencing because of lack in music theory.

sunneyboy
03-28-2007, 12:02 PM
as before i will just plod along and i am sure the end result will be as i hoped! i have noticed a vast improvment in my hearing . i am just not at a point where iam able to process it quickly enough to use for example in transcribing etc. but hey practise makes perfect.

Steinberg
03-30-2007, 08:45 PM
Hey guys and girls!

Now I'm getting tired of the RP course, because the intervals just don't hit in there.
I tried ricci adams music theory net's interval trainer, and I only set it to play two intervals P4 and P5, but I just cant get them right. :mad:
It kills me, have anyone tried the same?

Thanks.

sunneyboy
03-31-2007, 10:38 AM
hi steinberg i am doing the pp course but i use mostly RP to pass my rounds , i had the same difficulty with P4 & P5s because essentialy they are the same interval eg. cf is a perfect 4th in c maj but fc is a perfect 5th in c major , try and make sure your can hear the bottom note and the top note and eighther work your way down the scale or up the scale. i found that in a key all the notes have a particullar gravity towards one direction.

Cmaj again:b definatley wants to resolve to the c the g also!

try this play a c and an f , hear that sound ......cant figure it out! while playing your perfect 4th play your maj 3rd hear the disonance between the E and the F. you are now hear c e and f ! not a particularly comfortable sound is it . in most music this combination generaly wont be used because of its unstable sound. because your ear wants sort out the sound it will rather hear this combination as an incomplete inversion of a f maj 7 chord. because a 5 th such a strong resolution the c becomes th 5 th of f maj because the c wants to gravitate to the f !

now play c and g ..... hear that sound . then add your maj third E , for some reason your ear stays in that tonality and key because both the e and g want to resovle back to the c !

i found my problem was simply that my ear kept shifting tonalities and there for c-f in c maj would become c-f in fmaj.

if all of this sounds like blurb i dont blame you its thought process i had to go through to sort out the sound of a perfect 4th and 5 th ! a simpler way may be to hear the fist two notes of amazing grace and thats your P4th A-ma-

sunneyboy
04-03-2007, 11:30 AM
hi all a little update i am still on masterclass 16 , the first part of the excercise went well ( major chords built off a white tone and then any other black tone.)

now i am onto maj chords built off a black tone and then id any white tone! much harder then i anticipated i guess cause there are more white tones and my muscle memory is not able to aid me which is a good thing!

i am currently doing F# maj chord with any white tone and boy are my ears getting a work out = pain frustration lots of grunting and gritting of teeth!

DEEP BREATH ....................................ahh!

lets continue hopefully i will crack it within this week! man this is taking longer than i thought . Keep your eye on the prize!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Will keep you all posted. j

Elcon
04-03-2007, 02:29 PM
Start by indending not be frustrated anymore and keep your thoughts positive about it.

It is better to say something like "I am NOW relaxed and totally at ease with these exerices" instead of "I am so frustrated and I hope to get through this exercise soon"

Well, just a little help here.

Figure out what works best for you in order to create a better state of mind and dominant positive feeling when you are doing your eartraining.

It is quite logical you won't do good when you think negative and feel bad about yourself.


Take care,

Elcon

Steinberg
04-04-2007, 01:16 PM
Yeah, It actually helps very much, when you get a new interval down to put it into one of those ear trainings programs.

Falcon
04-10-2007, 01:13 PM
Hello Everyone,

I have both the perfect pitch and relative pitch courses. I did them for about 4 weeks a year ago and then gave up, bu noww i've started again. Now i've been doing them for the last 7/8 weeks.

I'm on masterclass 16 on perfect pitch. I'm finding the pitch discrimination drills very easy.

But when I come to do drills where I have to sing/indentify 3 or more notes, I get confused. I try to indentify one of the notes and then the other 3 notes will start creeping in, and i'll identify a note which I'm not playing.

There are times when I can do it very easily, but as soon as i don't do this drill for a day, I find that I can't do it, so all that practice has gone to waste.

I can normally do the single pitch identification drill in under 5 tries, but when it comes to identifying more than 3, it takes me ages...(same for relative pitch drills, i'm on lesson 11)

Any help???

Elcon
04-10-2007, 08:00 PM
Hi Falcon,

When getting to a three or four tone chord, you might wanna try to play them first as a whole (chord) then play them one by one after the other.

A variation could be to play the chord, hold the keys down and play each tone within that chord seperately.

And use RP when you need to.

Things like that should be a great help.

It is also very important not to neglect your Aural Recall training or Ear Meditation as David calls it.


Take care,

Elcon

Falcon
04-12-2007, 11:40 AM
Thanks Elcon,
just one question, when I do that, should I count that towards the verification rounds or does it not count?

Elcon
04-12-2007, 09:37 PM
Well, I don't remember what David said about that actually.

I think that at some point you won't have to play them seperately anymore.
You should be able to hear all of them and ID them.

I would try not to count it as an "correct answer"

Do you have all his material on audio? All his talk, from MC1 up to MC24?
He does mention something about it if I'm correct.

Take care,

Elcon

Falcon
04-13-2007, 11:59 AM
I have all the lessons, and I don't remember him saying anything about that so far (MC 17).

He just said do loose harmonic chords and then moved on to something else....
Thats what put me off doing loose harmonics, because I didn't know what to do

Evander
04-15-2007, 09:13 PM
Hi, I'm on the relative pitch lesson 7 lightning round and I seem to have the same problem every time. Everytime I do the lightning round I make the same mistake. After hearing Perfect Octave, I have trouble to hear the next interval and I always get it wrong. Is there a way to practise somehow to overcome this?

Steinberg
04-15-2007, 09:58 PM
Hi, I'm on the relative pitch lesson 7 lightning round and I seem to have the same problem every time. Everytime I do the lightning round I make the same mistake. After hearing Perfect Octave, I have trouble to hear the next interval and I always get it wrong. Is there a way to practise somehow to overcome this?

Hey Envader!

I kind of had the same problem, but after I have put all the intervals I have trained into sites like http://teoria.com/exercises/int-ear.htm, I kind of got it down.
I think it's good to hear the intervals in such way.

Trumpetstud
04-24-2007, 12:01 AM
Hi everyone.

I am new to these forums and, although I am not a guitar player (I play trumpet and piano and like to compose), I was wondering something about David Burge's perfect pitch course.

I have now reached masterclass 10 after being on the course for about 2-4 weeks and things were going well until I reached the white 7ths. Now I am completely stuck. I just had the piano tuned, so maybe that has something to do with it (different sounds to deal with in the tones maybe?). I have been doing the solo inst. drills, piano drills, and team drills and am wondering if I am overworking myself.

Anyone got some advice?

Thanks!

KevyG
04-24-2007, 12:50 PM
Hey everyone, im also new to these neck of the woods...
How are all the people on the Relative Pitch Course going? dont seem to hear much from you guys compared to the PP guys. Ive recently purchased it and was just wondering how everyone is progressing.

Heyjoe87
04-24-2007, 11:12 PM
I purchased it 2 years ago(off and on), and now i'm making progress LOL I recently started it again and i'm on my perfect 4ths. I approach it with more fun than "I MUST HAVE RELATIVE PITCH" LOL thats probably why i'm progressing more. I would suggest to have fun with it. If it takes you longer to acheive something so what, at least you accomplished it. Sorry I sound like a mom.

Steinberg
04-28-2007, 10:57 PM
Man! I used PP for over 3 months, and I'm on masterclass 8 :mad:
Damn, I must be a retard compared to some of you guys.

Steinberg
04-28-2007, 10:58 PM
Hi, I'm on the relative pitch lesson 7 lightning round and I seem to have the same problem every time. Everytime I do the lightning round I make the same mistake. After hearing Perfect Octave, I have trouble to hear the next interval and I always get it wrong. Is there a way to practise somehow to overcome this?

Just know what it is, and take it from there.
Or you could use teoria.com for some extra ear training.

Let's hear from you :D

Heyjoe87
04-29-2007, 12:49 AM
Man! I used PP for over 3 months, and I'm on masterclass 8 :mad:
Damn, I must be a retard compared to some of you guys.
Everyone learns at different levels. It doesn't mean that you're retarted. I was stuck at MC 8 as well and decided relative pictch training is more of a must than perfect pitch. PP is icing on the cake relative pitch is the cake. In my opinion You first have to have a good foundation of RP before aquiring PP. Also tuning out your relative pitch only makes it harder to get PP(and confuses your ear). I don't have PP but I know when I was doing the pp supercourse I always heard the relationships (which is good) and thought It wasn't right. So I tuned out my relative pitch and things got all messed up for me LOL. Just realized both are good and take different approaches to make things more interesting.

graypianoflying
04-29-2007, 01:31 AM
Yeah, don't worry about it. I've been at it for almost 2 1/2 months and I'm only on MC 9.

Falcon
05-04-2007, 11:49 PM
Man! I used PP for over 3 months, and I'm on masterclass 8 :mad:
Damn, I must be a retard compared to some of you guys.

I used PP course in the past a year ago, and started again 3 months ago, thats probably why I am ahead of you...

And maybe me starting music when I was 6 has something to do with it... (although I quit music until 12, now im 15)

Anyway don't worry, I quit last time because I was findin it difficult from MC 8, and I wish I hadn't. Don't make the same mistake!

Steinberg
05-05-2007, 07:55 AM
I used PP course in the past a year ago, and started again 3 months ago, thats probably why I am ahead of you...

And maybe me starting music when I was 6 has something to do with it... (although I quit music until 12, now im 15)

Anyway don't worry, I quit last time because I was findin it difficult from MC 8, and I wish I hadn't. Don't make the same mistake!

No, Sir! I will never be as stupid as you ;)

Falcon
05-05-2007, 11:10 AM
No, Sir! I will never be as stupid as you ;)

Watch it!:mad:


:D

c_n12
05-24-2007, 06:43 AM
For anyone who thinks they're retarded I just wanted to let all of you know that I am now on MasterClass 18, almoast 19, but if you go back to the early posts on this topic you can see my serious issues with masterclass 7 at a virtually snail's pace progression from 08/19/06 to 09-25-2006 for anyone who dosen't understand color hearing and needs their ears to learn it directly I recommend ToneQuiz as I have many times. It's a computer program that will work on the "team player" exercises with you for as long as you want and gives you NO external reference to identify notes other than your ears and your ears have no choice but to learn to hear the colors and eventually after you hear them you'll start to understand them slowly more and more. It leaves the ear no other option but to grow, if anyone wants the program feel free to e-mail me and I'll put you in touch with a copy. I swear from my own experience that if you absolutley can't understand what color hearing is and the solo exercies aren't enough, this "partner" will help you along and like I've told everyone else if you want it badly enough you will stop at nothing to get it!

Good luck to everyone! :)

ice
06-11-2007, 05:19 PM
What a suprise to find this thread! I bought P.P about a year ago. I got as far as class 7 and got totally stuck. I also figured I needed to improve my relative pitch first, but never got that far! I want to start it from the begining again, but right now I'm looking for quicker and easier exercises to improve my pitch while singing (I'm in a rush to improve due to a singing competition coming in less than 2 weeks). I started a new thread about that just now if youwant to check it out. Ithink I called it 'singing flat' or out of tune.
Anyway you guys must be proud of yourselves for getting past disc 7 and up! I'll give it another try!

Estef
07-15-2007, 05:30 PM
Hello guys, I'm new here and well, let me tell you about my experience with DLB programs. I got them both as a gift from a friend like a year ago and I started doing perfect pitch and I was in Masterclass 6 but because of reasons I still don't understand I quit doing it. I felt that I wasn't going anywhere really, because I didn't really see much improvement. Probably I quit too early, so now I want to start again and hopefully I'll see some improvement now. I'll start all over again, cause really I don't remember any of the exercises or anything, so let's see what happens... I'll post any advance I see... ;)

forgottenking2
07-15-2007, 05:37 PM
Wow! A fellow Ecuadorian... what do you know? IBM is attracting people from all over.

Estef
07-15-2007, 07:41 PM
Wow! A fellow Ecuadorian... what do you know? IBM is attracting people from all over.

:D I know... haha... Globalization brings us all together!

LukeMusic
07-19-2007, 08:12 AM
Hi everyone,

I've gotten up to MC 11 and have been working on it for about a week. Quite a difference in the amount of homework and difficulty. The two tones harmonically wide is a good exercise. Much more difficult then anything else thus far.

Can't wait for my "phase transition" coming up. :D

moltar
08-07-2007, 01:41 PM
Hi, I've completed the whole course, and started doing my own drill which involves the computer playing random notes, and I have 10 sec to guess what note it was. I can identify notes correctly about 90-95% of the time, if it's all white notes and Ab. The other black notes I'm not really able to tell yet, and that's because when I did the keyboard solo drills, I couldn't go from white to black because I would instantly know which key I would be pressing, so that's why I've made this own drill with the computer.

Anyway, the way I hear tones are that I identify them to the very first tone of a melody I know, like, I identify E with Summertime. And the tones I can't identify with a song, kinda sounds like other tones, but in a different way, so that's how I'm able to hear those aswell.

Now what's confusing me is that I've also started the relative pitch course, and now I am on level 2, lesson 11, where a drill is to identify what inversion it is just by listening to the bottom tone. Everytime a major first inversion chord is played, the bottom tone has the same quality as an E has, I mean, it sounds just like the starting note of Summertime, and maybe it is that I can hear that it's a major third from E to C, because that's how the melody starts (E C E), which would make sense since the bottom tone of a first inversion indeed is the third.

But does this mean that whenever I hear an E, I relate it to C? I'm never using relative pitch conciously when I do perfect pitch drills, in fact, I don't have that good relative pitch when it comes to identifying intervals.

What is my "perfect pitch" really?

TimeStopper
09-16-2007, 05:12 AM
Although this thread looks a tad old, I wish to know if anyone can tell me something about it... I've gotten to PP MC 6 so far in about 3 weeks... am I slow? I just can't get 20 in a row of 3 tones yet

Oh and I have almost no relative pitch.

Elcon
09-16-2007, 10:42 AM
If you're in a race with somebody, probably. If you're not, it still does not matter I think. As long as you notice improvement once a while you're doing good.

Try to compare the questioned tone with tone C also.
David talks about comparing the wrong with the right tone, true, but I noticed that comparing to C works even better for me.

Take care,

Elcon

TimeStopper
10-09-2007, 10:53 PM
Elcon, how did you progress so fast? Like not taking weeks or so? Any help is appreciated!

Elcon
10-10-2007, 04:22 PM
I don't know how I progressed fast, or faster then most of the PP course users. Well, I do know I spend alot of time on the drills each day. Much more then David suggested.

Also do I not remember why I seem to have had two references, C and C# I believe. It is those two that seem to mess me up sometimes in identifying other tones. So, for anybody on the course...Always compare to C only.

I actually think I did, but I don't remember for sure.

I am still working on refining my hearing abilities and I improve well.
Often I seem to use my aural recall when I cannot get the pitch by ear alone.
It's not always easy, but I guess with frequent use I'll get better. And sure, I still mess up, usually semitones though.

Take care,

Elcon

TimeStopper
10-10-2007, 09:15 PM
Well thanks again Elcon

Stargazer5781
10-21-2007, 01:40 PM
Hey all, I just registered here, and I just wanted to say thank you to everyone on this thread! I started David Lucas' ear training disks, PP and RP, last summer and obviously ran into a lot of the same struggles you guys have. I study at a university, and everyone around me is utterly convinced that it is impossible to develop perfect pitch and I was somewhat foolish for trying. I even loaned the first disk to some of my friends because I found the first lesson pretty convincing, but they did not. Listening to you guys talking about it was really... supportive.

It's really an incredible program. I'm a vocalist, and I had probably the worst sense of pitch of anyone I knew. Seriously. I sucked in chorus, literally failed ear training class, and it took me weeks to learn new music. The only reason I was admitted into the university was because they REALLY liked my voice (and pitch troubles weren't evident in the audition), though last semester they felt my pitch issues were so completely fargone that I would never resolve them. After 5 months with Burge's cds I'm now a leader in the chorus, I've surpassed most everyone I know in pitch perception, and I can learn very complex songs in a matter of days. I'm studying abroad this semester, so I'm just waiting for a chance to re-audition when I get back, hehe.

I'm still not anywhere close to perfect pitch though, maybe you can relate to where I am. I hear all of the tones very distinctly now. They're all very very different, and I can hear the subtle similarities and differences between them. I've been working with tone quiz, and usually when I'm wrong it's only by a 2nd... but I'm only right about 40% of the time. It's like I hear the tone and it's familiar, but I can't always quite decide which note it is, like a G and an F#, or an E and Eb. I have about the same accuracy with my aural recall, which totally surprises people on the ocassion I pull a note out of thin air that no one else can find, lol. But yeah, most of the time I can't do that. Probably just requires more listening and more practice, but I was curious if any of you have run into anything similar.

Once again, thanks a lot, and I hope this is going well for everyone! If anyone's reading this and wants to talk more about the program please do. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's been encouraged by this forum.

TimeStopper
10-21-2007, 04:41 PM
Well as long as it works and it's not just a scam, which seems to be the mindset of most forums. Just hope that perfect pitch won't be a curse which is also what everyone seems to think.

Stargazer5781
10-21-2007, 05:48 PM
Well I'll tell you what I"ve experienced so far as far as perfect pitch being a curse goes.

Basically your perception of music is increased. I find I cannot stand listening to transposed repertoire any more. For instance, I was in French diction class the other day and we were working on a song called Extase by Duparc. Duparc had very clearly chosen specific notes for specific words in the text, for instance he chose an A for the word "pale" which made a lot of sense, because A is a bright, innocent note. In the low key it's on a Gb, which is, while bright, a very intense and powerful note. Likewise, for "dort" (sleep) he had chosen a G# which is a peaceful, solemn note, while in the low key it's on an F, which is not. This drove me crazy, and it sounded a hundred times better to me when the soprano sang than the mezzos.

You become more sensitive to sound in general. Loud clanging sounds and obnoxious white noise drive you even more crazy than a normal person. Extremely noisy rooms are very stressful. I also found that the very first time I went to the symphony after beginning my perfect pitch training (it was an Ives piece) I found the sheer number of notes overwhelming because I was trying to listen to all of the colors all at once, but I don't know if that was just me or a quality of having perfect pitch.

People claim that having perfect pitch makes you appreciate music less because you always know when someone is flat, sharp, wrong note, etc. But most musicians I know can tell when an orchestra is playing out of tune and it bothers them every bit as much as their PP companions. If an orchestra is in tune and playing a little sharp, PP just lets you know that the notes are a little higher than the notes you're used to. I don't find it unpleasant, nor does anyone I know who was born with perfect pitch.

I had a teacher who once said that people with perfect pitch can't feel the "mood" of a key like people without it can. People with perfect pitch only hear the notes as notes, they don't hear the personality of the key. I didn't argue with him, but everything I know about perfect pitch indicates the exact opposite is true. Everyone I know who has been born with perfect pitch has a much deeper, intimate understanding of why a key for a piece is chosen than anyone I know without it. Mozart certainly knew why he was choosing his keys every time he wrote a piece. So that myth is not true.

So yeah, the advantages of PP far outweigh the disadvantages. People who believe it's a curse don't understand it and probably are just trying to make themselves feel better because they don't have it. Anyone with perfect pitch who is freaking out because of an out-of-tune piano or something is being a diva and you should disregard them. "My perception of music is SO FAR ABOVE YOURS that it causes me PAIN to listen to your inept playing." It's bull, ignore them. There is no comparison between my ability now and before I started the training, so I, for one, highly recommend it. You shouldn't ever ask whether you want PP or not, the answer is yes. The only question that matters is: Do Burge's lessons actually work where hundreds of others have failed?

TimeStopper
10-22-2007, 12:21 AM
Well I believe that you just need to devote time to it and it will occur. (Although I don't know for sure because I've only gotten to MC 8).

By the way does anyone know where I can find tone quiz? The site for it is down (and probably was down for a long time)

Frod
11-18-2007, 10:03 PM
Hiya there. I' new to this forum, and I thought I should share a few thoughts about PP and David Lucas Burge's course with you.

I started out 22. June this summer and have practised 20-60 minutes almost each day. I didn't really have much trouble along the way, because I had already a decent relative pitch, and since Burge says it's okay to use it, then I never made much effort not to. I finished MC 23 about a couple months ago. At that point I was able to name any notes I heard on my piano, singles quite fast, and slower with each note added. But I was still unable to hear much if any difference in keys, so I decided to backtrack the course a bit and do the exercises with a different timbre. (Been using standard Grand Piano 1 with normal brilliance on my Clavinova, and changed to Grand Piano 2 variation with bright brilliance).

I don't recommend doing this, seeing as I then spent a month and a half using relative pitch just to hear any difference in the notes at all. One should rather go gradually from timbre to timbre when that time comes, just be sure that you can hear the diffrences all along.

I was very frustrated near the end of the course because I felt I was using relative pitch too much, and not hearing the colours that well. So now I am working with various exercises to rid myself of the relationship-feeling when naming notes. I know Burge says this will only strain the ear and not help at all, but that's only if you try to, as he says, block out relative pitch. So as long as you don't do that, it's fine. You just trick the ear a bit.

A good way to practice this is playing more than one note at a time, but then it is very difficult to hear the diffrences clearly, so one exercise I use to is to play any random chord or tone cluster and then release all keys except one. This I name, based 100% on the pitch alone, since I'm not sure which note it's a major third to or a minor sixth to.

Another good way to get familiar with the diffrences in the notes is to play any note, lets say a G, two times and then an F two times, back and fourh like that, one note each second, switching to for example G and A after a while. I find that the diffrences become very apparent when comparing them like this.

I've read that some of you use a song or a fragment of melody to identify the tone. This, I believe, is counterproductive. It only suggests tonal memory. Of course some notes are going to trigger melodies anyway, but I don't recommend using it deliberately.
I used C.P.E. Bach's Solfeggieto (dunno about spelling) to name an Eb, and I was very often able to think of it out of thin air and be spot on. But then it always sounded like a minor third to a C, not an Eb. See the difference? If I then listen to a piece in B-minor, and someone asks me to sing an Eb, it is very, very likely that I will sing a D instead.

I have in the past few weeks realised just how unripe my PP actually is, although I am getting better all the time. I now hear a disctict diffrence in keys, though I can't name them.

Bottom line is trying AT ALL TIMES to listen to the colours, the flavours, the differences, how the notes sound individually. As soon as you get to the point when you can hear diffrences in the notes (which should be somewhere between MC 14 and 23), get familiar with them, and stop using relative pitch gradually from there. Do the meditation drills at MC13, work with two notes at a time and hear the colours, all sorts of things in order to name the pitch based on its inividual sound. This is very important, and something I didn't do enough. Burge says it quite often, that even if you know it's an Ab because it sounds like a minor sixth to the C, listen a bit more anyway.

I think I have made my point.

Good luck to you all with your Perfect Pitch

bigbari62
11-20-2007, 07:10 AM
hey all

i began me PP and rp a little while ago (although i did quit and start pp again cause i was cheating)

i am up to rp lesson 6 (minor 3rds)
and pp lesson 5 or (i forget)

i've come to ask a question

i've been working on singing 3 tones for a couple of weeks for about 20 mins each morning and i still havent got 20 in a row....

i have been trying to play dissonant chords/notes rather than simple major/minor ones to challenge my ear

should i be working on more than that exercise for 20 mins or should i be splitting it 10 mins for that exercise and 10 mins for the one after. ive been doing it proggessively eg. maj 2nds then when i pass start min 2nds etc.

also is it normal for my ear to sometimes hear overtones in the notes, as it tricks me occassionally as what to sing... eg. harmonic p4 and p5???

Stargazer5781
11-20-2007, 10:03 PM
Frod -

Wow! You and I started at around the same time and you got through the master classes a lot faster than I did, haha. But then my relative pitch sucked, and I took a rather lengthy break in the middle, (not to mention my ears are proving to be rather stubborn), so that's probably why. A lot of what you said is very helpful though! I'm going to try out your suggestion of the two pitches and maybe practice some notes harmonically. I actually find it easier to identify two notes at the same time than just one note, but we'll see. Tone Quiz may prove a great deal more difficult than the keyboard.

bigbari-

Are you a baritone singer? Just curious :-p So hard to find really big voices these days.

Singing the notes is interesting. I have a rather large baritone voice myself if I may say so, and for the longest time I had difficulty singing notes of a chord back as well. I'm convinced the issue is either an ear issue or a vocal technique issue. I would recommend sticking to the major and minor chords until you get to a point in your relative pitch training that diminished and augmented chords sound natural to you. The early lessons, particularly in the perfect pitch lessons, are supposed to ease you into hearing the colors and intervals; you don't want to jump into the deep end too early. Just play the tones, listen to the notes very passively, listen to how they blend together or how they're dissonant, and sing them back one at a time.

I'm sure David Lucas would tell you to not jump ahead, just spend 20 minutes on the task you're currently working on. I don't think there's any harm in spending 10 minutes working on singing back tones and 10 minutes working on intervals though. Just don't be jumping ahead to work on 7th chords or something.

Hearing overtones is perfectly normal and wonderful. A lot of people can't hear them clearly, much less ACCIDENTALLY choose them rather than the base tone. Just take your time while you're listening and, if you're using a keyboard, perhaps choose a setting that is slightly darker sounding. A very bright sound means that is has lots of higher harmonics, and they can be distracting. Good luck!

bigbari62
11-21-2007, 05:49 AM
Stargazer

sorry what i meant was ive been being 20 mins of singing 3 tones harmonically in the morning for weeks.... aside from my 30 mins in the afternoon of relative pitch.... its really really easy for me to sing major n minor chords and im getting around 15 or 16 in a row of dissonant ones.... am i just making it unnessessaryily hard on myself?

i meant should i incorporate more than one different technique of listening into the 20 minute morning session eg. the next exercise is 3 wide tone ( 2 tones one hand and 1 tone the other hand).... should i do 10 mins of each or continue slowly on 3 harmonic close tones till i pass

yeah im a baritone singer lol... i play alto sax or more specifically a yamaha alto 62 lol

ok so i shouldnt try to shove out the overtones of the sound

bigbari62
11-28-2007, 07:27 AM
also 1 more question while im at it

if i do a m3 drill and strike out and then repeat it and pass does it still count or does it have to a 'cold start' pass? I know he said you can warm up but im not sure if im cheating... :S

Stargazer5781
11-28-2007, 01:20 PM
You pass, you'll have plenty more chances to practice m3s in the lightning rounds to come.

Flextones
11-30-2007, 09:33 PM
Burge wrote a small booklet back in the 1980's, which cost $10.00 at the time. I read through it. I tried the exercises he has in the back. He starts with you playing F# and wants you to hear the "twangy" color of the sound. Then he introduces Eb as being "soft" or "mellow" when compared to F#'s twangyness. I use my piano at home. It is psycological mind play. I really don't hear those qualities. I certainly don't hear or feel visual colors either as he suggests. I know that color is on a higher plane of frequencies. The visual spectrum is much higher that the highest hertz that humans can hear. He next introduces A but offers no color like "reedy" or "clean" or "pure" tymber. Next he introduces C but like A he offers no quality to listen for. Then he introduces C#. It sounds like a bunch of trash talk to me. I think he is talking out of his rear end and trying to make money off people who honestly would like to improve their ability to recognize musical sound better.

Frod
12-01-2007, 06:44 PM
Burge wrote a small booklet back in the 1980's, which cost $10.00 at the time. I read through it. I tried the exercises he has in the back. He starts with you playing F# and wants you to hear the "twangy" color of the sound. Then he introduces Eb as being "soft" or "mellow" when compared to F#'s twangyness. I use my piano at home. It is psycological mind play. I really don't hear those qualities. I certainly don't hear or feel visual colors either as he suggests. I know that color is on a higher plane of frequencies. The visual spectrum is much higher that the highest hertz that humans can hear. He next introduces A but offers no color like "reedy" or "clean" or "pure" tymber. Next he introduces C but like A he offers no quality to listen for. Then he introduces C#. It sounds like a bunch of trash talk to me. I think he is talking out of his rear end and trying to make money off people who honestly would like to improve their ability to recognize musical sound better.

I heard the F#'s "twangyness" and the Eb's "mellowness" right from the very beginning, but then I really wanted to believe that they were there. And so they were. Perhaps it was the same with you, only the other way around. Or perhaps you are tone deaf. I cannot say for sure, though you certainly seem not to honestly want to improve your ability to recognize musical sound; if you would, you'd read a few of the previous posts in this thread to see that quite a few people have benefited a lot from Burge's trash talk.

Flextones
12-01-2007, 07:17 PM
Frod,

You might have something there. This morning I revisited the booklet. The booklet cost $12.00 and was copyrighten in 1983. I never gave it a real chance. I have good relative pitch, because I graduated from Indiana University with a Master's Degree in Music Education and I graduated from the United States Military Music School with honors. I wanted to believe that the pitches of F# and Eb had those vibrant-twangy and soft-mellow qualities that I could somehow highten my senses to perceive. I was rewarded temporarily but had to go back to the mundane tasks of trying to teach peoples children and play for church choirs. I was always under pressure to make a living, however now that I am retired from the rat race of dealing with trying to teach peoples and children and survive a day in a very tough and violent inner city school system. The days turned into weeks, months, and then 20 years. Finally I got the H out of there. I am going to patiently work on the Color Hearing Technique Exercises. He has listed 18 exercises and devoted a chapter to Ear Teasers for Super Ears. I have a friend who is an older lady who can read and play hymns on the piano. I am going to ask her to be my partner in doing the exercises. I am 57 and she must be in her 60's or 70's. I know that I have developed my skills over the years and am a much better musician today than I was when I was a student and an Army Bandsman. I practiced and developed my ability to transcribe directly to the keyboard after hearing a tune one time. I can do this now. I thought that only a genius could do that, but practice under pressure from a demanding choir director who is not a musician made me develop real-time transposition on the first pass. Absolute pitch has always escaped me. It is a gift that I have known others to posess (including one of my former piano students). I covet that skill badly. I am going to be patient and work through this. I will give it a year. I know that genius skills can be developed. Conditioning can change a person. The "old timers" in the jazz clubs used to tell me, "some cats got it and some cats ain't". That is trash talk. I got to be a good jazz musician over the years by practicing the right things to develop my soloing and chording.

GuitarMaster
12-07-2007, 06:33 PM
Hey guys,
I've started both PP and RP Burge's Courses about two months ago.
I was looking for a good music forum and I found it :)
So... Im in MC 8 but I'm still doing MC 6 & 7 to sharpen my hearing even more.
Like most of you here, I'm also uncertain about whether I'll achieve PP at the end of the course or not, but one thing is certain - the course (PP supercourse) DOES improve your hearing because it's the so called "traditional method" (or whatever) to open up the ear.
So I think it's worth 150$.

to another issue, I'm pretty stuck in MC 8.
The main drill is to play major and minor 3rd using just the white keys and identify them. When i'm tring to do so I feel like i'm identifying only the first note and lets say it's G, I know right away that major 3rd above G is B and im not using PP or RP at all, actually im not using hearing at all....... what should I do??

Thanks,
GM

Frod
12-08-2007, 04:48 PM
Hey guys,
I've started both PP and RP Burge's Courses about two months ago.
I was looking for a good music forum and I found it :)
So... Im in MC 8 but I'm still doing MC 6 & 7 to sharpen my hearing even more.
Like most of you here, I'm also uncertain about whether I'll achieve PP at the end of the course or not, but one thing is certain - the course (PP supercourse) DOES improve your hearing because it's the so called "traditional method" (or whatever) to open up the ear.
So I think it's worth 150$.

to another issue, I'm pretty stuck in MC 8.
The main drill is to play major and minor 3rd using just the white keys and identify them. When i'm tring to do so I feel like i'm identifying only the first note and lets say it's G, I know right away that major 3rd above G is B and im not using PP or RP at all, actually im not using hearing at all....... what should I do??

Thanks,
GM


In this MC, knowing the bottom tone will automatically give you the top one, but there's not much to do about that is there? You can't not know that it's a third when the task is playing thirds. The first 12 master classes are, as he calls them, the preparatory phase, and therefore only meant to prepare the ear, and to get familiar with the tones and listening to them.

If you know it's a third because you feel your fingers apart in a certain way, or you know it's not a C# because the tone you're playing is not a black key, never worry about those things. The most important thing is to just listen as much as possible. Listen, listen, listen. Most people without PP will have to hear the Bb a few thousand times before they can recognize it, so it doesn't really matter.

From what I have experienced, the only thing one really needs in order to develop Absolute Pitch, is to play tones over and over, comparing them with one another, try to remember the pitch texture or colour, to sing them, try to hear the colours in other instruments, play the tones over and over some more, compare them with each other some more, try to remember the colour, play them a couple thousand times more, then a few thousand times on other instruments, compare a little more, and then some more, and so on.
But that is frightfully boring. And that's where David L. Burge's course comes in. It makes it a million times easier and more fun (though it still is not easy) to do what is needed.

So just keep at it. If you want PP badly enough, you won't stop at anything, and let time help you. I've been doing PP ear training 20-60 minutes each day for about 6 months now, and though I have improved A LOT, I've still only had a small taste of what fully developed PP is, and still have a long way to go.

Hope this doesn't demoralize too much, and good luck

Flextones
12-08-2007, 08:36 PM
Human beings,

I am practicing trying to hear the differences or similarities between Eb and F# on the piano that I tune, which I have had since I was a small child, taking piano lessons since 1956. I use a chromatic quartz tuner and a professional hammmer with wedges and felts to tune it myself. It is tuned to precisely A440 according to the tuner. It sounds in-tune when I play it also. However my ear has not opened up yet. I can make either key sound twangy-bright or mellow/soft by using variations in touch to shade for color. I am practicing according to the book about 20 minutes a day, on my own.

The older lady at church who plays for the period between Sunday School and the Morning Service, promised me she would partner with me, but she left church Sunday without a goodbye. I guess you young guys would call me the older man since I am 57, but I think Mrs. Wright must be pushing 70. I really need her to partner with me. She is retired if she ever worked a day in her life. I am retired except for playing for church and drawing my pension. I have time to do this. As you get older presbyacusis or higher frequency hearing loss begins to effect your hearing. Your hearing gets progressively worse as you age. Therefore I suggest that you young people protect yours as much as possible. When I was in my twenties I played in some very loud Rock and Blues bands without ear protection. I also worked in several steel mills and was in the Army firing loud artillery without protection. I am grateful for what hearing I have now, after a lifetime as a musician and music teacher.

I can tell you that I am sightsinging more and that is improving my relative pitch, but absolute pitch continues to confound me. All of the tempered pitches sound the same, either higher or lower than each other. I am not hearing a quality difference like the quality difference between harmonies like major, minor, augmented,or diminished. I will keep trying, because this is a lifetime pursuit. It is my unalienable right to pursue my happiness. Having perfect pitch would make me very happy.

Flextones

GuitarMaster
12-08-2007, 10:54 PM
Thanks Frod and Flextones for your answers.
It's great to know that this thread is not "dead" , yet.
See (like Mr.Burge says), I feel like I've progressed alot too while doing Burge Color Hearing Techniques - and thats what keeps me using his CD's.

Another thing that bothers me is that when I play a note, lets say it's a G, I don't recognize it by it's color, it's simply sound like the first note in Bach's famous Minuet, and I Just know that's the note. And it's the same with all the note. I wake up, choose one white note and recognize it......

I'll be more than happy to hear your comments,
GM

BTW, it will be nice if you'll (Frod or toneflex or someone) give me an MSN messenger or ICQ so it will be easier to communicate.

Frod
12-08-2007, 11:45 PM
Like I said: If you identify the tone by any other means than the colour, don't worry about it and keep listening for it anyway. I had, and still have, many "triggermelodies" that come to mind when hearing a tone, like the opening of Grieg's piano concerto for the A, Rachmaninov's third piano concerto for the D, or basically any melody that I knew the starting tone of.

Just remember that the colour is still there after you have identified which tone it is. It doesn't disappear just because you know it's a G, quite on the contrary. Just think of it more as getting familiar with the tones and how they sound when compared to each other, rather than a guessing game where you absolutely have to do it by the colour alone. From my experience, the latter will only slow down the process.

After a while, as you do the exercises, you will start to hear major differences in the tones. The A will sound totally different from the G and the F, though you may not be able to pinpoint what the differences are exactly. I asked someone who had absolute pitch from his childhood what he thought the tones sounded like, like the Eb's mellowness and the C#'s crispiness and so fourth, and he answered something like, "Uh, I never really thought of it like that before; they just sound different, the A sounds like an A, the Bb like a Bb."
What I think that may mean is that those, like you and many others, that have melodies stored in their minds, in the right key, have already some form of absolute pitch, or at least the unripe ability to remember tones. The whole colour-thing will come by itself as long as you regularly keep listening.

I think it is fine to keep these posts open for all to see, as some may be experiencing the same kind of difficulties and may like to get some views from others.

GuitarMaster
12-09-2007, 12:06 AM
When i'm listening to note and trying to hear its color I hear somthing behind the tone, but I'm not able to tell the difference between each note.
The B is very very loud and it's vibrates even more than the F# (to me at least) but I can't tell it's the B for sure. and that is what really bothers me, I'm using my "triggermelodies" instead of listening to the color and spending time listening and exploring the unique color of each note.

Frod
12-09-2007, 04:05 PM
Guitar Master,

What you can do to help you with this issue is to spend a small part of your ear training session, say 5 minutes out of 25, just listening to the colours and nothing more. Just sit back, relax, and play for example the B repeatedly slowly to medium fast, and then play the A in the same way for a little while. (I found that it was often easier in the beginning to distinguish the notes when are a wholetone apart, and not a semitone) Switch back and forth between the A and B until you can hear the differences clearly (This may take a while depending on your ear's "openness"). Try other tones and expand your horizon when you feel you are ready. I also recommend using in the beginning wholetones only, thus creating a wholetone scale. That will further diminish the relationship feeling.

This has helped me tremendously in the past few weeks. I too felt frustrated that I really didn't hear the colours enough, and just using relative pitch, so when listening and comparing only two tones at a time like this you can't help but to hear the colour. I can now imagine in my mind the feeling of the A and the Eb (which are the tones I have listened to the most in this manner) and sing them quite accurately, even if I play and sustain some other tone at the same time.

Hope this helps

GuitarMaster
12-09-2007, 06:46 PM
Frod,
I do spend about 5 minutes a day listening just to the color, but I listen to the notes that are half step apart - I'll try what you advised for the couple next week.

I'm so glad I've found a that forum, because it's less frustrating when you have someone to share your progress and questions, so I'll ask a few more question if you don't mind :)

When I'm doing Burge's sessions I'm using 3 octaves (Middle C octave, one above and one below). Do you think that it's somehow hinders my progrees?

When you listen to a chord harmonically, and you're supose to "unlock" it, and hear all of the note, do you hear them at the same time? I mean, when I play a chord, at the first time I hear the bottom tone, then I play it again and get the middle tone... Is that ok or should I practice and listen more to chords?

Thank you very much for your time
Guitar Master

Flextones
12-09-2007, 08:07 PM
Frod and GuitarMaster,

I would like to think that absolute pitch is fiction, but I know better . I just though of another person that I know who has it. Four of the five people that I know who have it, don't know how to explain it. One is dead. My relative pitch is pretty good. I can recognise the fundamental and its first three harmonics very well. From there on up the overtone series I have trouble discerning the thirds, and seconds. I pray to God that if He let's me do that I will be forever grateful. The sixths and the sevenths will follow suite.
All I have is the booklet. I don't have the audio course in any form of media.

My knowledge of counterpoint and harmony won't let me divorce myself from thinking in realtive pitch when ever I hear music or see it written.

My back ground as a professional jazz pianist/organist required that I hear all chords (or harmonies) as a block. I didn't learn to hear individual pitches for a long time. I trained myself to hear C-E-G as one sound for example. When I was accompanying big time jazz stars I had to learn tunes quickly to follow them. I used progressions, formulas and harmonic cycles. I have had to re-train my ear to hear the pitches individually in teaching counterpoint harmonies to choirs. The melodies take precidence over the harmony in the case of gospel or choral music. Each individual strand of melodic intervals combine to structure the emerging harmony that comes out of the melodies that are sounded simultaneously.

Yes practice and listen more. Pray and ask for spiritual discernment of melodic and harmonic intervals.

I do every day. 469491504@icqmail.com felix_scott_jr@msn.com


Flextones

Frod
12-09-2007, 10:44 PM
Frod,
I do spend about 5 minutes a day listening just to the color, but I listen to the notes that are half step apart - I'll try what you advised for the couple next week.

I'm so glad I've found a that forum, because it's less frustrating when you have someone to share your progress and questions, so I'll ask a few more question if you don't mind :)

When I'm doing Burge's sessions I'm using 3 octaves (Middle C octave, one above and one below). Do you think that it's somehow hinders my progrees?

When you listen to a chord harmonically, and you're supose to "unlock" it, and hear all of the note, do you hear them at the same time? I mean, when I play a chord, at the first time I hear the bottom tone, then I play it again and get the middle tone... Is that ok or should I practice and listen more to chords?

Thank you very much for your time
Guitar Master

3 octaves are fine, and you shouldn't use any less. Burge says that you should start practising with a medium range and expand later, and I have no reason to disagree with him.

There are no other way of unlocking the chord or tone cluster but to localize one note at a time, so that is just fine. Do as he says: sing the tones when singing is the task, and imagine them only otherwise. The latter is of course that which you should put the most effort in mastering.

The unlocking of chords is extremely helpful, and will contribute both to the development of PP and to the enjoyment of music in general. You will start to hear the underlying harmonies and counterpoints in music much clearer, and it becomes simply more fun listening to music. Just take your time with it, and you will improve with time.

GuitarMaster
12-10-2007, 04:31 PM
Great! Thanks for your replies! Very helpful and motivating :)

Flextones
12-10-2007, 08:04 PM
Frod,

I think that the middle register is the clearest and most resonant part of the piano. If you go further down the pitches get muddy when sounded together in intervals less than a 5th or 4th. This follows the overtone series which occurs naturally. When you go higher than the middle range the sound begins to thin out and looses some of its resonance.

There are trains that come through the small town I live in and they blow their horns which sounds like a stack of seconds thirds and fourths in various combinations. I can hear the chord as a Major 6th or minor 7th chord sometimes, since I hear the qualities of the harmonic blocks better than individual pitches, but I am beginning to distinguish the individual voices better. The voicings remind me of big band voicings. I can understand how big band composers from the 40's were influenced by the sounds of the train horns.

I can unlock the pitches, but I can't tell you what any of the names of the pitches are. I can just distinguish the relationships of the pitches in terms of their relativity to one another. Each of the intervals produces a harmonic buzz or resonance. I can't distinguish the exact frequencies.

The kind of knowledge that I have is critical to my success as a musician who is required to play without the aid of a written score. If I couldn't do that well they would hire someone else who could accompany their voices in that fashion.

I am improving but I'm not where I want to be yet. I need to transcribe even faster, retain and recall these sounds at a moments notice better. I can use tricks like block chords where I voice the melody from the soprano voice downward in blocks but it is only a device that helps me solve my immediate musical problem quickly.

GuitarMaster
12-12-2007, 12:07 PM
Hey, Flextone and Frod.... What master class are you anyway?@#5
Share with me (and the rest of the forum) your experience. :)

Flextones
12-12-2007, 07:13 PM
GuitarMaster, and other readers of this forum,

I am not in any master class. I don't own a copy of the audio media or any books that come with it. However, I am interested in buying any portion of used media written by Burge or anyone elses method for teaching absolute pitch.

One of my retired high school band teachers bought Burge's booklet back in the 1980's when he retired and had nothing else to do. Mr. Douglass my friend as well as teacher (he went deaf, and had to retire early, which is a casualty of his ears being exposed to loud music for so many years) died from cancer a few years ago. Before he died, he gave me the $10.00 booklet back while I was still teaching public school music myself in the 90's. I have read through the booklet twice. I have tried doing the exercises by myself and am now trying to get a retired church musician friend to partner with me on a daily basis so I can try to develop my depth of perception. So far she has told me to wait until after the first of the year. I asked to partner with her a few weeks ago when I found this users group site and ran across this topic.

I don't think Burge had made the tapes when Mr Douglass gave me the booklet. A few years later Burge came out with casette tapes to go with the book. Of course tape has a "wow" in it. The "wow" vibration is especially pronouced when playing back the sound of a piano. If that were not so I could make my own tapes and save money. He explains everything in the Exercise Section toward the back of the booklet.

I don't hear any difference in the quality of an Eb from an F#. The first time I played them on my piano, I thought I heard it, but once I started messing around with using my touch to control the tones, I realised that it was just a psychological trick of suggestion and not real. I wanted to hear F# sounding "twangy" and Eb sounding "mellow" or "soft", because Burge said they sounded like that. Unfortunately he is full of it.

But I will keep trying to hear it anyways.

Frod
12-13-2007, 03:30 PM
I finished the course about two months ago. I still have a long way to go though. But, I still believe that it is possible to learn true perfect pitch, only that it takes huge dedication, lots and lots and lots of patience, an open mind and a very, very long time, possible more than a year. But what keeps me motivated is the fact that I do indeed improve, although very little at a time. I hear the colours slightly clearer and clearer as time goes, and now not only on my piano. I have in the last few days been experiencing that it at times is not so much a colour, but more like a familiarity. I cannot explainin what it is with some of the tones that separate them from some of the others, but they sound different all the same, as if it is beyond colour-hearing and just gradually becoming intuitive.

When (or if) I reach the point where I can hear any ensemble play any kind of tonal music and I can hear which key it is without having to imagine of the tonal centre, I will consider myself as having perfect pitch. And I am happy to say that I do hear a diffrence if a piece is played on the piano in two different keys, even if it is just transposed a semitone. Not the kind of tonal memory-difference, but a difference in the texture or colour that I didn't hear before.

So I will continue practising intensively, and inform this forum if anything interesting happens.

jules
12-13-2007, 04:08 PM
Hi all,

Though I'd intoduce myself, I'm Jules from the UK.

Stumbled across this forum and read all of this thread - it's good to know that other people are going through this same course and having the same doubts and trials as me!

I'm doing the Perfect Pitch course for solo guitar and I've been doing the drill basically everyday since April this year.... I'm currently just finishing Master Class 9. The one where you strum an A maj chords then identify the tone. I think i've been about 5 weeks on MC 9.

The only reservation I have with MC 9 is that, once i've strummed the A maj chord, I can kind of tell which tone i'm playing from the position of my hands, even if i'm not looking. But I think this is ok. David says not to worry too much about such things.

I think i've taken alot longer than the average student but this is probably because I used to have a terrible musical ear. Put it this way - when I was at school, out of the class of 30 kids 2 of us failed too get in the school choir and I was one of them. The teacher said I was tone deaf and not to bother with music.

I think the hardest drill was the play 3 random tones and sing them low to high. I must have spent about 2 months alone on that drill....

Anyway it's been very worthwhile so far. My singing and guitar playing have both improved. I can especially hear vibrato so much better now. And because I can hear it, I can now play it.

Another thing that really helped at the start of the course was to carry my metronome around with me all day...... why??? Because it has a setting where is plays an A 440Hz tone. So every hour through the day I would try to sing an A and check myself with the metronome. I did this for about 2 weeks. Now I can hum an A whenever I want (with about 95% accuracy).

I also use the Functional Ear Trainer to help with the team studies, but I hear about this Tonequiz program. Where can I find it??? Thanks

Good luck to everyone!

cheers

jules.

Frod
12-13-2007, 04:35 PM
I just thought of a way to illustrate how I feel the tones to be different and yet familiar:

Imagine twelve pieces of paper on which is written twelve different texts in a languauge you don't understand. The format of lines and paragraphs are very similar in all of them. Now imagine you standing about 5 feet away from a person who is showing you all these papers one after the other (the chromatic scale). To begin with (before you start perfect pitch ear training) they all seem the same, but as you look closer and more often (ear training in progress), you see that they are different from one another, though you can't really tell what the differences are.
If the person picks out a random piece of paper, you feel like you've seen it before, and you might recognize something about it that might rule out some of the others, but you are not certain.

That is about what it feels like to me.