The Topic is...Chords

[Bongo Boy]

My nemesis.

It's been about a year for me now, and I still don't know ANY chords. Oh sure, I can do some of the beginner things...a C, an Em, an Am, a Dm. Plus I can certainly find a few nice-sounding chords on my own that I have no idea what they are.

Question is...what are some of the ways we learn chords? Here's my dilemma:

I started with Autumn Leaves (as many of you know) as my first song. It's got plenty of chords--7ths I suppose. So, each and EVERY one of them that I've chosen is a complete bitch for me. I spend tons of time trying to voice just ONE of these bastards. Forget moving from one to the next...that's just too much. By the time I get ONE stinking chord to actually sound like it was played on an actual guitar, my fingers are so stressed I wouldn't think of trying a second one.

So...that's the technique of learning the chords you need to learn in order to do a particular song. Hey...I'm telling ya, it's been nearly a year (okay, 6 months) and I've made squat for progress using this technique.

So...next, I thought hey, I've been trying to get comfortable with C maj on the fretboard, why not just stick to some C maj chords? No go buddy! I pull out my chord book, dive in to the first C maj chord, and the same thing happens. After tens of minutes of trying to voice a single C maj chord to make it sound nice, my fingers are exhausted...or I cant' do it at all.

I'm tellin' ya, my fingers are useless. I'd say 8 out of 10 chords that I find in my books are damn near impossible for me to do...there is no friggin' way I'm goin' to get my fingers to do that!

Now, I've tried a 3rd approach...and that's to do Darrin Koltow's 'easy chords thing. Problem is, I might learn to do some chords with easy voicings, but why? I need chords to make some music...not to sound out chords?

Bongo is frustrated with this chord thing. Any ideas? I know I'm going to have to work 10 times as hard as others...I simply don't want to do that to no avail. Sausage fingers, remember?

[Bizarro]

baby steps, that's the key!

When I used to teach, back in the stone ages, I really recommended learning the basic open chords. Then I'd move on to bar chords that were direct extensions of the open chords.

I think you need to practice bar chords at this point. Switch between chords along with a metronome, set to 60bpm and play a new chord every 4 clicks. Since you like jazz, play through the cycle of 5ths, over and over and over. Start with all major chords for about 10 minutes, rest for a bit, then go to minor. After awhile (a couple of weeks?) add in 7ths (dom7, m7, Maj7).

It sounds like you started with chords that are too difficult for a beginner's fingers to master. I highly recommend banging around with bar chords. This will develop accuracy in switching between chords, plus it'll build up strength. As you get better you'll build up confidence too, which should inspire you to play more.

[Chim_Chim]

Are you having trouble with what fingers to use ?
Maybe post some of those chords and we can suggest some fingerings for them.

You know Jazz ain't exactly the easiest starting place?

Maybe you should learn some scorpions songs? (LOL!)

Maybe learn some rock songs that use cowboy chords and some that use power chords so you can first learn how to walk rather than just sprinting out of the gate with Jazz?

Maybe try AC-DC,Scorpions,Black Sabbath and Green Day at first then gaduate to blues and learn a bunch of Stevie Ray Vaughan tunes maybe "REDHOUSE" by Jimi Hendrix and some Eric Clapton stuff etc. that'll much better prepare you for Jazz than just up and playing Giant Steps or whatever (don't I wish?).

Okay maybe rock's not your bag but the blues is like the "gateway drug" that'll lead you to the hard stuff (JAZZ)

:confused:
Chim

[Bongo Boy]

Thanks guys. It's embarassing, but I now remember a long while back one of our members wrote about the technique of playing one note from each of several chords (in succession), then adding a second note to each chord, and playing these two-notes chords as a progression, and then adding a third note, etc.

I totally forgot about this, and seriously, the idea of playing simpler chords (triads for example) never occurred to me. Duh!

Actually, I've been having more fun than ever lately noodling around on various blues scales, and there's plenty of rock that I like, too. Thanks guys.

[Chim_Chim]

Hey Bongo,

take a look at this site:

click (http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/3573/lessons.html)

and this one too:

click (http://www3.nbnet.nb.ca/hansen/Charlie/tutorial/cctut1.htm)

[Schooligo]

I think Bizarro gave great advice,

How can I help?

Basics Recommendation # 1
Learn these chords:
C, A, G, E, D.

at first in open position, then in other positions on the fretboard.

Why these particular chords?

1. These chords are used in thousands of songs.

2. These chords are very important to applying musical theory concepts particularly when learning scales, arpeggios, & various fretboard positions.

Learn how to modify these chords so you can play Minor chords, Major 7th, Minor 7th, & Dominant 7th chords.
ie. learn how to play E Major,
then learn how to play E minor,
then learn how to play E Major 7th,
then learn how to play E minor 7th,
and finally learn how to play E Dominant 7th.

After you learn these chords, be aware of the SHAPES for each individual chord as well as their modifications.

now transpose all these SHAPES onto various positions on the fretboard.

"Bongo is frustrated with this chord thing. Any ideas?"

Bongo,
could you please give an example of a typical guitar practice in the life of Bongo Boy?(meaning at least 3 times a week this is how you almost always practice)

I may have some helpful theory's & solutions however I'd like to know more about how &/or what you practice.

Please be as specific as possible.

[szulc]

http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=131

[Danster]

Originally posted by Schooligo

Basics Recommendation # 1
Learn these chords:
C, A, G, E, D.

at first in open position, then in other positions on the fretboard.

Hey Schooligo. So are you suggesting, for example, to learn C chords using the A, G, E, & D shapes (which would obviously be at different positions on the fretboard)?

Or do you mean to learn C chords at different positions on the fretboard, period (with some shapes which are not the A, G, E & D shapes)?

Thanks,
Dan

[szulc]

I'll bet his answer is YES!

[Danster]

Originally posted by szulc
I'll bet his answer is YES! I'm not sure if its me that's confused or you. :D Prolly me, so let me rephrase my earlier question. In learning various ways to play the C chord at different positions on the fretboard, does that mean playing the C chord using A, G, E, and D shapes or what? Thanks. Go easy James :) , I'm often overwhelmed by your answers.

[EricV]

Hey there,

I think what he means is to learn the basic chords C-A-G-E-D, and once you´re familiar with those, move them around. I.e. the A and E work very well if you turn them into bar chords and move them around.
With beginner students, I work on just that: those basic chords ( i.e. E major, E minor, E7, Emaj7, Emin7 ), and once the student is able to play bar chords, we move those basic chord shapes around... so, by moving the E-chords up the neck as bar chords, he/she can play F ( maj, min,maj7, min7,7 ), F# etc.
Eric

[szulc]

THE CAGED SYSTEM

The CAGED System is a method of organizing the scale patterns, based on the shapes of the open position chords C-A-G-E-D.
The shape of each chord moves up the fingerboard in the CAGED order.
In the key of C major the ‘C’ pattern occurs at the open position, the ‘A’ pattern occurs at the 3rd fret, the ‘G’ pattern occurs at the 5th fret the ‘E’ pattern at the 8th fret and the ‘D’ pattern at the 10th fret. Positions of the C major scale are learned at these locations, using the CAGED chord forms as mnemonic devices. The To use this system with other keys you need only know the order these occur in and the relationship to the other patterns.
In the key of A major the ‘A’ pattern is in the open position, the ‘G’ pattern is at the 2nd fret, the ‘E’ pattern is at the 5th fret, the ‘D’ pattern is at the 7th fret and the ‘C’ pattern is at the 9th fret. This system has some advantages, as there are only five different patterns for each type of scale, but this is a limiting factor in executing many phrases.
Mathematics dictates that for each seven-note scale you should learn at least seven different patterns.

[szulc]

I posted a link earlier in this thread that shows the forms of the C Major Triads in close voice. The point here is in learning CAGED you should first learn the open position CAGED chords then using your index finger as a barre move them around to other positions to play the forms in other keys. The first step to the second part of this is to play C major using the CAGED forms (moving up the neck). Then once you understand the location of the root of each of the CAGED forms (for the same Chord, in this case C), moving this whole pattern (of all of the CAGED form up the neck) up or down will change your root note. So, this is the reason said "I'll bet his answer is yes!". Because you need to do both, but I would suggest starting with the open CAGED forms, then learn how these forms lay across (up) the fingerboard, for a specific root.

[szulc]

CAGED FORMS

[Chim_Chim]

Hey Danster,

You're not confused nor are these guys...you're both right!

You can play a C chord using a C shape,an A shape,a G shape,an E shape,and a D shape!

They invert in this order up the neck in root position,they just hop strings in some cases

the C shape and A shape root notes both pivot at the same fret,the G shape and the E shape do the same and the D shape is on it's own.

click here (http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~desmith/guitar/chords/caged.htm)

and here (http://www.rodgoelz.com/caged_inversions.htm)

[Danster]

Thanks James, Eric, and Chim (and sorry Bongo for commandeering your thread :D ). Sorry to say (for your sakes) that I already knew all of the stuff you posted in reply to my queries :(, except for the link that James directed me to that was early in the thread which shows C chord inversions. And that was really what I was after. I was wondering whether (using C as an example) the CAGED forms were pretty much all that one needed for playing C all over the fretboard, or were there other ways that were useful. James' link showed the other ways.

I also appreciate the CAGED scales file you posted James. I've seen that in books before, but I like the compact way you've got it there.

And Chim (may I call you Chim? :D ), I've had that Dansm site bookmarked for a long while, and have learned some good things from it.

Incidentally Eric, are you related to Adrian?

[EricV]

Originally posted by Danster
Incidentally Eric, are you related to Adrian?

Nah, I am not. I get asked about it a lot, though ;)
I once played a show with a metal-band a s a "hired gun", filling in for their guitarist. The keyboarder had told the drummer my name in advance, and the drummer thought they were talking about ADRIAN V. playing the show with them.
He was quite intimidated, and kinda like "huh ?" when I walked into their rehearsal room :)
Eric

[Schooligo]

"Hey Schooligo. So are you suggesting, for example, to learn C chords using the A, G, E, & D shapes (which would obviously be at different positions on the fretboard)?

Or do you mean to learn C chords at different positions on the fretboard, period (with some shapes which are not the A, G, E & D shapes)?"

Hi,
I believe it's important to be able to do both.

I really have enjoyed the helpful advice communicated in this thread!!

[Bongo Boy]

Originally posted by Schooligo
Bongo,
could you please give an example of a typical guitar practice in the life of Bongo Boy?(meaning at least 3 times a week this is how you almost always practice) Hmmm...this is going to be tough (and that should be my first clue that I have a basic problem).

I turn on the amp, grab a guitar, tune it. For the past few weeks at least, I then begin with some familiar major scale patterns at a comfortable place on the neck, seldom paying any attention exactly where I'm at (as far as the tonic or the specific scale). During this 'practice' I'm just trying to coordinate left and right hands and accurately place my fretting fingers.

After doing this for an arbitrary period of time, I then might just move up and down a 'blues scale' (again, I do not pay attention to which one, or which notes, but only to the pattern). Lately I've been trying to move around within a given position, attempting to break the 'up and down the scale' pattern and improvising.

In addition, I might pick out short snippets of melody and play those snippets around the fretboard in various positions or even on a single string, again, paying no attention to what the notes actually are, what key I'm in or anything else.

This total 'process' generally goes on for about 30 min.

Now that I've written it down for the world (and myself) to see, it's kinda obvious why I'm not progressing in general, and why I'm not progressing with chords in particular. I'm so ashamed :(

[Patrick]

Bongo, in your original message you said you have trouble fingering chords. Do you have adequately thick callouses yet? I'd imagine that even with fat fingers calluses would make things easier since your fingers don't smush down on the strings so much, so each finger can take up less space...if I'm making myself clear.

I've been learning for 7 months now, and chord changes still feel awkward and slow to me...Another somewhat frustrated newbie.

[Bongo Boy]

I'm not sure...I don't know what's normal, but the finger tips are only moderately firmer than they would be without any playing at all. I only practice about 30 min per day, but then I have many weeks where several days goes by with no practice at all. I'm going to buy a travel/practice instrume, such as one of the Yamaha models.

I actually heard one of these played at a live gig in LA and I certainly wouldn't have known it wasn't the Ibanez George Benson that another player had--no kidding.

[Patrick]

I find that when my calluses get quite thick, they get permanently indented at the fingertips...little dents...so that'll be a clue. But for me, keeping them that way requires constantly using my fingertips, like with chords, hammer-ons, pull-offs, etc.

[leegordo]

My nemesis.

It's been about a year for me now, and I still don't know ANY chords. Oh sure, I can do some of the beginner things...a C, an Em, an Am, a Dm. Plus I can certainly find a few nice-sounding chords on my own that I have no idea what they are.

Question is...what are some of the ways we learn chords? Here's my dilemma:

I started with Autumn Leaves (as many of you know) as my first song. It's got plenty of chords--7ths I suppose. So, each and EVERY one of them that I've chosen is a complete bitch for me. I spend tons of time trying to voice just ONE of these bastards. Forget moving from one to the next...that's just too much. By the time I get ONE stinking chord to actually sound like it was played on an actual guitar, my fingers are so stressed I wouldn't think of trying a second one.

So...that's the technique of learning the chords you need to learn in order to do a particular song. Hey...I'm telling ya, it's been nearly a year (okay, 6 months) and I've made squat for progress using this technique.

So...next, I thought hey, I've been trying to get comfortable with C maj on the fretboard, why not just stick to some C maj chords? No go buddy! I pull out my chord book, dive in to the first C maj chord, and the same thing happens. After tens of minutes of trying to voice a single C maj chord to make it sound nice, my fingers are exhausted...or I cant' do it at all.

I'm tellin' ya, my fingers are useless. I'd say 8 out of 10 chords that I find in my books are damn near impossible for me to do...there is no friggin' way I'm goin' to get my fingers to do that!

Now, I've tried a 3rd approach...and that's to do Darrin Koltow's 'easy chords thing. Problem is, I might learn to do some chords with easy voicings, but why? I need chords to make some music...not to sound out chords?

Bongo is frustrated with this chord thing. Any ideas? I know I'm going to have to work 10 times as hard as others...I simply don't want to do that to no avail. Sausage fingers, remember?
I am leegordo! My advice to anyone who is struggling with chords on geetar, is to take up a cheap K/board and really learn about chords......ALONG! with the guitar. Unless you are willing to practice.... practice..... practice, then you will never really be good at any kind of music. you know it's true!!!

[Chino_rebel]

OK I am a real beginner, and working with this "watch and learn series" book, and worked on G, C, and D last night. The way the author wants me to finger G is weird. I can do it, but it's wierd. There are 2 other ways I can do it too, and the one I like isn't the author's. I figure I'll know how to do all three, but use the one that works best for me. Then did a lot of strumming, C, G, D etc etc etc. The author also mentions that it often takes beginners months to be able to sound the chords he uses well, like.... Gee, thanks guy!

I think to really learn this stuff a person does have to use the Mel Bay book or whatever beginner book full of "cowboy chords" they have and go from there. I find this music theory stuff tasty and interesting because I've worked out a fair amount of it in my head, but it ain't gonna help me play "Tom Dooley" and not sound like crap, which is my main mission as a beginner for now.

I'm going to try to walk before I run, then later I'll be able to play "Walk don't run" lol!!!