A question about the modes...

[Roobs]

So ive been trying to come to terms with my limited knowledge of the modes, and today I just thought of something while I was playing.

Take the classic C Major, or Ionian mode.

C D E F G A B C

Now, say you want to use a different major-sounding C mode, such as Lydian (4th scale degree) or the Mixolydian (5th)

If you are playing that C Lydian mode, you are basically using the G ionian, but using the 4th scale degree (C) as your root note.

Now, the notes in the G Ionian mode are:

G A B C D E F# G

...when you changed from C Ionian to C Lydian, you were basically just sharping the 4th of the original Ionian scale. All of the other notes are the same.

Likewise, if you're playing C Mixolydian, its going to be based off of the F Ionian, where C is the 5th scale degree. the notes in F Ionian are:

F G A Bb C D E F G

Again, this is the same as the C ionian, except with a b7.

And now for my question: CAn this be used as a way to go about switching between modes while keeping the same root? So that, if you're playing E Ionian, you can switch to E Lydian simply by sharping the 4th, or to E Mixolydian by flatting the 7? etc etc

Sorry if this is all a bit confusing, as I think I am a bit confused myself. No one has really bothered to explain the modes to me very well, and its too hard to learn just from articles and such so Im trying to figure it out on my own. Let me know if this makes sense :D thanks!

[silent-storm]

that is the way I was taught to think of modes.

congradulations for figuring it out yourself.

It isn't so hard now, is it?

[zog]

yes you can do that and the formulas are as follows:
mixolydian b7
dorian b3,b7
aeolian b3,b6,b7
phrygian b2,b3,b6,b7
locrian b2,b3,b5,b6,b7
lydian #4

[Roobs]

aha! muchos gracias

[Dommy]

You've got it man.

[Jed]

Someone who get's it !!

Congrat's, you're understanding of the "why" may change over time, but for now you've got a good grasp of the "how" modes can be applied. Now you can have tons of fun learning to use modes to imply, forecast or fake a modulation.

Please excuse me for a moment while I rant about some of the 100's other posts on modes:

It never ceases to amaze me how so many people post questions looking for the meaning of life (the "secret" to modes) and have no freaking idea about basic harmony. How do they expect to understand a concept when they don't even speak the language?

Thanks for letting me get that off my chest. Feeling better now. I think I'll go work on chord substitutions.

Cheers,

[7h3 J35u5]

That's basically how modern music theory (Bach's idea) is conceptualized. Every scale and chord are based off of the Ionian scale. The Ionian is the reference and other scales/modes are described as alterations of it.

I remember figuring out by myself what you are figuring out yourself right now. When I finally started learning formal theory I was very disappointed that all I could use it for was a means to communicate what I already understood to others that understood and knew theory.

I was under the impression that formally learning music theory was going to unlock secrets and complexities that would boggle my mind. I was disturbed how simple the entire concept of it was.

I try and teach people to understand music their own way and use their ears and use Music Theory as a secondary source. I worry that people who don't figure out music on their own and use just music theory that they are taught become limited in their playing because they use it as a set of rules and their playing is limited by their memorization of rules.

[Apple-Joe]

Yeah, but remember that when you alter a scale - even with a note only - you should watch the nature of the chords. When substituting one note there will still be some differences in the chord structure.

[widdly widdly]

Learning the modes as alterations to a major scale is useful for using "modal interchange" ideas (which is what Joe Satriani calls Pitch Axis Theory).

An example...

in C maj your playing Dm7 G7 Cmaj7

for the first two chords you could interchange the C ionian mode with a C aoelian mode ( b3, b6, b7 ) to get some substitutions...

so you get... Dm7b5 Gm7 Cmaj7

Another idea is to change the progression from C ionian to C Mixolydian.
Another way of looking at it is.. Dm7 is ii in Cmaj but vi in Fmaj so I could modulate this to F major.

Dm7 G7 Cmaj 7 becomes...

Dm7 Gm7 C7 ....Fmaj7

[Roobs]

aha! thanks widdly, that was a great post. This was sort of my next logical step in learning the modes, and that is the next thing I was getting at, but you explained it a lot better than I could.

I think my project for tonight is going to be taking the basic ii-V-I progression (in C of course), and seeing how these chords get altered for the 6 different modes (like you did above with Aeol and Mix). Once I can do this, I think I'll have a much better idea of what modes are optimal for certain progressions and chords, and the different sounds of the modes will finally start to get ingrained into my head.

Thanks everyone for the support!