HELP: Left Hand Bad Habit

[juliac]

Hello...

Ive been playing guitar for about 4 years on and off and ive had a couple of tutors. About year or so ago my second tutor pointed out that my left hand technique was all wrong because i was gripping the guitar leaving no gap between neck and palm and my thumb was creeping over the top. The result is a tense postion and some notes buzz and others are dappened because my fingers cant quite get the right position. At the same time my right hand was wrong because i was playing like an electric guitarist (tense) so i had 2 things to sort out. anyway, i decided I couldnt handle making those changes because it was so frustrating and it almost blew my brain and so i decided to continue doing my own thing. True enough i struggle to play some songs and i reckon these bad habits dont help. So a year later i'm with a new guitar tutor because i want to learn percussive techniques and he's said the same thing, ive got to sort out this left hand before i do anything. So I spent last week and the weekend doing exercises and basically the result is I cant play my tunes in this new position because ive got to get used to it - this is driving me insane to say the least. I am supposed to be playing this month (tomorrow) and when i play like i used to i notice all the buzzes and dampening sounds (shouldnt be) and its so offputting.

The new position being: gap between palm and neck and thumb in the middle at the back of neck - basically not gripping the guitar. has anyone got any advice on how i can speed up this process i.e. any exercises i can do. My tutor is away for SIX WEEKS!!!

I am so frustrated. How long does it take to correct this bad habit and is there anything i can do to help learn this new method i.e. any exercises, slowing it down.

anyway, any suggestions and in particular from anyone who has had to correct a bad habit.

cheers x

[UKRuss]

Hi Julia, welcome to IBM.

I'm not sure there are any exercises as such to correct your left hand position, just focusing on the fact that the gap is there and that your fingers hit the strings without buzz or unwanted damping.

Try placing your thumb in the middle of the neck at the back first, without placing any of your fingers on the strings. Just your thumb touching the neck.

Now by dong this you cannot be gripping the guitar as there is no downward pressure from above only the thumb from below. This also helps with a nice light touch as to do otherwise would cause you to push the guitar.

Then once you are happy with that, focus on keeping your thumb in position, curl your fingers to play a chord shape. and focus on the gap, between palm and neck, your thumb and the resulting noise produced from the strum of the chord to ensure your fingers are in place properly.

It can feel quite unnatural and tense, and even cause a bit of strain type pain (which you should not ignore, don't over do it and injure yourself).

After a while, you will find you need to concentrate on it less and it becomes more of a natural position.

G'luck

[svenNWM]

Hi Julia,

in April this year I made exactly the same experience and I had to relearn my left hand position - thumb behind the neck. During the first week I practiced scales a lot. I played very slowly to hit the frets correctly. It took one week until it worked quite good. And it was worth the time!
But this thing of a relearning process seems to happen much more often than I thought before. Sometimes it is necessary to change the style even if you used it for years. A few months ago I read that phantom changed his picking style dramataically after playing for years and years (I hope I remember that correct).

Good luck
Sven

[Megus]

There is no magic solution to this, keep at what you're doing now which is essentially changing the habit and forcing the proper technique upon what you've done wrong all this time... With practice and due time, it only gets easier and you'll be glad to have done with it sooner than later!!!

You're not alone on this subject, or any of these technique problems, it's been tried and true so just stick to it!

Good luck

[Stengah]

I don't believe there is wrong way to play guitar. Play just like you want to and what feels most natural for you.

Don't worry, be happy.
Stengah.

[MattW]

I don't believe there is wrong way to play guitar. Play just like you want to and what feels most natural for you.

Don't worry, be happy.
Stengah.
Yep, I mostly agree but some balance between what is commonly accepted as better and what feels comfortable is often wise. I found that something that felt uncomfortable (floating hand picking) actually turned out to be much better for me once I had got used to it weeks later. Sometimes it can be good to try other techniques to see if they might be better than the one we use now, but we can obviously rule some extremes out - for example I had not considered holding my plectrum with both hands and using my face to fret the notes. ...Not until now that is...I'll be back in a moment.

[MattW]

Nope, doesn't work, it just hurts.

[Stengah]

Sometimes it can be good to try other techniques to see if they might be better than the one we use now, but we can obviously rule some extremes out - for example I had not considered holding my plectrum with both hands and using my face to fret the notes.

Yep, it is fun and cool to try other techniques. I have actually changed my main picking style totally just trying other stuff. I play all riffs by alternate picking, when i used to play those things with only downstroke. When i am soloing i use also economy and sweep picking.

Have fun with guitar,
Stengah.

[joeyd929]

I was speaking to this piano player one time last year while his piano was out being repaired for 6 weeks. During the absence of his piano, he chose not to play at all, rather than play on a farily inexpensive electric keyboard with hammer action keys, like a real piano.

He was so worried that playing on a keyboard with slightly different action would mess his technique up. How can not playing at all be better? Point is that we have to step out into that scary unknown place to try something new.

I'm 46, no musical committments, so what the heck if I get a little rusty at one thing while trying to improve another area. Changing hand positions is something that can be done over time but don't let anyone fool you..there is no right or wrong way.

Sure, there is a right way and wrong way to approach different aspects... If you like to bend strings then you don't hold the neck classical style because you need the grip or you can strain your hand..

If you like to get that pinky stretched way up the neck then you better strap that guitar up high and hold your hand in the fashion of a classical guitarist. Personally, I think using the thumb over the top strengthens the hand in ways that would not normally be covered.

Jimi Hendrix used his thumb over the top to play the 6th string for some things. Players like Steve Howe hold their hand in a classical manner, yet can switch to the thumb over the top for a fingerpicking arrangement.

Depending on what chord or scale I am playing, my hand changes position to adapt to what I need to do. It is amazing what we can accomplish when we don't know that we "can't do it".

Learn it all, what can it hurt? Just like that Bob Seeger tune where the lyrics go "I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then"..

[juliac]

this is all really really interesting. i find it so hard sitting in my bedroom developing my guitar technique. i fall into a mental trap of "am i doing this right", "oh god whats the point doing this because i could be spending hours and not getting better, simply because i'm doing it all wrong anyway". reading everyones thoughts is helping me to see a bigger picture.

thanks very much for your input............(everyone). not sure if i should start a new thread because i want to discuss technique in general and learning.

I'm going to start a new thread.............

[joeyd929]

this is all really really interesting. i find it so hard sitting in my bedroom developing my guitar technique. i fall into a mental trap of "am i doing this right", "oh god whats the point doing this because i could be spending hours and not getting better, simply because i'm doing it all wrong anyway". reading everyones thoughts is helping me to see a bigger picture.

thanks very much for your input............(everyone). not sure if i should start a new thread because i want to discuss technique in general and learning.

I'm going to start a new thread.............

I have always had this problem too. Something I started doing recently that has helped a great deal is this. I stopped watching my left hand when I play. I started strictly "feeling" the notes under my fingers.

When I play a chord, solo, run, riff, progression, I try not to look and something interesting has started to happen. It is starting to feel comfortable.

I watch many guitarists and although we need to think about what we are doing, it seems the ones that can really get over this obstacle are the players that don't really look or think about EXACTLY how it looks, well that was my problem, anyway.

Every now and then I will peek and see my hand in a shape that I am not used to but I keep reminding myself that when I don't look at my fretting hand it feels right...

Just like typing. I never look at my hands, I just hit the keys I want...I would be interested in your new thread about this topic..

[juliac]

Oh my god!

I stumbled across this at the weekend. I tried sitting in front of mirror last week to see what my fingers actually looked like from that angle as looking down on them they looked at a bad angle. Anyway, looking in the mirror my fingers looked just like my tutors. then i tried really relaxing and applying as little pressure as possible and i discovered that i didnt need much pressure to make a sound. then i tried shutting my eyes and i noticed the strings didnt buzz and my fingers went exactly where i wanted them to go - that really suprised me and its suprised me once again reading that you have had the same experience.

thank you for that input.

[joeyd929]

Using the mirror is great! I do that on occasion to check how I'm doing.....

[juliac]

Yes, it is great. A while back i had issues with strumming, i just didnt get it and the more i thought about it the more i couldnt do it - as is the way! Then my new tutor at that time told me about imagining my hand (I am diverting a bit here) was on a string like a puppet, going up and down - that worked for a bit. At that time i wondered whether the looking down on my right hand as it strummed was distracting me - i.e. concentrating too much on the strum. So I wanted to see myself from a different perspective, i wanted to see myself as i see others when they strum and see if it looked the same. So i sat in front of the mirror and i thought, yes i do look like a guitarist but what i then found was that as i played i got totally into watching myself and that took my mind away from whether i was doing it correctly. So, I guess looking in the mirror helps me to get into what i am doing rather than being concerned about right or wrong.

[hairballxavier]

HELP: Left Hand Bad Habit


Jimi Hendrix

http://image.listen.com/img/356x237/5/8/5/0/650585_356x237.jpg

Stevie Ray Vaughn and Jeff Beck

http://www.openmusic.ru/gallery-common/0011-stevie_ray_vaughan/0011-stevie_ray_vaughan_25.jpg

BB King

http://www.cr.nps.gov/delta/blues/images/people/bb_king2.jpg

Albert Collins

http://hem.passagen.se/daveo/ACollins_Mun.GIF

Tony Iommi

http://www.rocktron.com/artist/iommi.jpg

Eddie Van Halen

http://www.larrymichaelsphoto.com/images/eddievanhalen.jpg

Randy Rhodes

http://www.deanguitars.com/content/imagelib4/classicsgal/RRhodes.jpg

Joe Satriani

http://www.concertshots.com/images/cs-JoeSatriani4-Atlanta71901_small.JPG

John Petrucci

http://www.concertshots.com/images/cs-JohnPetrucci2-Atlanta71901_small.JPG

Jimmy Page

http://www.geocities.com/knobberish/jimmy002_silverdome-april1977.jpg


Perhaps these guys know something your guitar turtors don't

[hairballxavier]

Also...

Steve Vai

http://images.starpulse.com/Photos/pv/Steve%20Vai-9.JPG

Keith Richards

http://www.undercover.com.au/pics/RollingStones130406_8.jpg

And on acoutic.



Buddy Guy

http://www.concertlivewire.com/jpegs/shows/buddy.jpg

Nancy Wilson

http://www.liveconcertphotos.com/Media/heart/nan.jpg

Leadbelly

http://www.nndb.com/people/180/000113838/leadbelly.jpg

Eric Clapton

http://www.pradipsomasundaran.com/uploaded_images/clapton-small-710561.jpg

Steve Howe

http://guitar-masters.com/Players/GP-Steve_Howe.JPG

Al DiMeola

http://www.ovationtribute.com/Atistes/AL%20DiMEOLA.jpg

[hairballxavier]

And on Bass

Geezer Butler

http://www.blackdeath.tv/images/geezer.jpg

Jaco Pastorius

http://www.jazzfusion.com/photo/jaco01.jpg

Stanley Clarke

http://www.ctbasses.com/clarke.jpg

John Entwistle

http://www.fotobaron.com/blow_out/images/John-Entwistle-67457-2a.jpg

My point is that I realize that when a beginner buys their first guitar they may throw in a Hal Leonard or Mel Bay beginners guitar book in with the deal that shows the "proper" method. However there is no law that says you must follow the instructions that came with it.

If your tutors are telling you that hat is the only way you should hold you left hand, lose them.

They will severly limit your abilities. You would be better off on your own than with someone that is limiting you.

[juliac]

Cooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

[UKRuss]

OK, ok. but no more enormous pics please!

[hairballxavier]

OK, ok. but no more enormous pics please! Sorry Russ, but sometimes it's really hard to see that thumb sticking out over the top of the neck so some of the pictures were large. I needed to do it to make my educational point.

And that is what this site is about.

Cooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

Don't get me wrong here Julia, you still should get the Mel Bay grip down too otherwise you will be limiting yourself.

All those guitarists in the pictures use that grip too when they need to. The thing is, when you are performing you do things the most efficient way possible. Different musical passages require different techniques.

[juliac]

Don't get me wrong here Julia, you still should get the Mel Bay grip down too otherwise you will be limiting yourself.

All those guitarists in the pictures use that grip too when they need to. The thing is, when you are performing you do things the most efficient way possible. Different musical passages require different techniques.


Yes, this point was made to me last night by my new tutor (1st lesson). He said exactly that - use it when you need to. that appears to be the essence - i think.

[kbundy]

Sorry Russ, but sometimes it's really hard to see that thumb sticking out over the top of the neck so some of the pictures were large. I needed to do it to make my educational point.

And that is what this site is about.



Don't get me wrong here Julia, you still should get the Mel Bay grip down too otherwise you will be limiting yourself.

All those guitarists in the pictures use that grip too when they need to. The thing is, when you are performing you do things the most efficient way possible. Different musical passages require different techniques.

All those pictures above are either acoustics guitar or electric guitar. In classical guitar, left hand is very important. Why tutor wants you to have your palm not to touch with the neck and want your thumb to place at the center of the neck? It gives you more space and move your finger freely. If you do the same thing as above pictures where your thumb placed on the side of the neck and the palm touches the neck, your fingers will move very limited. In this case, you will tends to create buzz sound because some fingers touch other string next to it.

[juliac]

Well that is starting to make sense. I mean, quite a few people are saying to me dont worry about it but ive now been offered a recording on a local compilation cd and I'm not sure i'm up to it because of my left hand issue. I can feel that its improving but its going to take a while before its a fluid thing, if you know what i mean. I dont think its good enough for recording i.e. i cant stretch my fingers to play the c/f chord (some people call it F with C in the bass). My tutor says i'm struggerling because my thumb is too high on the neck (bad habit). Ok so i know but its not an overnight fix. Ive warned the studio people so at least they know. life's too short, i have to try. :0)

[rottweilerv88]

hairballxavier (member.php?u=5594), hendrix in particular used to play thumbed chords. That doesn't mean that his palm was directly touching the back of his fretboard.

And its natural to have your thumb over the fretboard at TIMES, but having your palm glued to the neck is entirely different. I suggest you play the exact same stuff you play..... except, so it the right way. Eventually, you'll get the hang of it.

[hairballxavier]

I see what you are saying there Rott. But I guess it depends on what part of the palm we are talking about. If the joints on the palm at the base of each of the fingers or the area between the index finger and thumb touch, that is fine, but if you just collapse your hand so that the middle of your palm touches that is a no-no. I've never met any good guitarist that did that. That would be bending your wrist backwards and "collapsing" the hand as I like to call it.

The way to fix that is to work on forearm strength with freeweight training. Specifically, dumbell curls, rows and reverse flys.

[juliac]

Yes, the middle of my palm is touching the neck. In the same way as if you picked up a pole and carried it, thats how my left hand holds the guitar. (everyone shakes there head and cringes :). So yes its as if its collapsed. I remember my first guitar lessons, and i queried it and i was not encouraged to change it. It was then 2 years later that another tutor picked up on it but i also had a huge block as far rhythm went and my right hand picking pattern was wrong so i worked on that.

i think i know why i have developed this habit. I remember having trouble with chords because i couldnt stretch my fingers to the frets. Of course, the right thing is to adjust the thumb and hand position but i think that must have felt awkward so i did what felt the most comfortable at the time. At that time I was very impatient because I was desperate to express myself. I had a very strong urge to write songs. As soon as I was given one very simple picking pattern, i switched off from my lessons and wrote my songs. I needed to bypass the difficult stuff that was time consuming and as a result I developed a bad habit. Not sure if that makes sense.

anyway, I'll keep working on it. I saw Eliza Carthy last night, not a guitarist - a fiddle player. What an inspiration, that keeps me going.

x

[Revenant]

I'm sure you will adapt to a much more economic technique. I had some bad habits half a year ago. I was picking from my elbow rather than my wrist, and my fingers moved more than they had to. I solved this in TWO DAYS by sitting down and watching the current problem hand. I slowed down until i could play with the new technique 100% accurate. After a while you will adapt to it and it will become second nature. When playing thumbed chords, you might want to do the thumb-over-neck style, but ONLY then.

I also adapted to the "economy of motion" principle michael angelo introduced. Lift your fingers no more than necessary and you'll be in control of what you're doing.
I am sure you will succeed as long as you commit to it

[hairballxavier]

Yes, the middle of my palm is touching the neck. In the same way as if you picked up a pole and carried it, thats how my left hand holds the guitar. (everyone shakes there head and cringes . So yes its as if its collapsed. I remember my first guitar lessons, and i queried it and i was not encouraged to change it. It was then 2 years later that another tutor picked up on it but i also had a huge block as far rhythm went and my right hand picking pattern was wrong so i worked on that.

i think i know why i have developed this habit. I remember having trouble with chords because i couldnt stretch my fingers to the frets. Of course, the right thing is to adjust the thumb and hand position but i think that must have felt awkward so i did what felt the most comfortable at the time.

A thing to consider is , why did it feel awkward? What were you doing wrong that made you want to collapse your hand? 1 reason could be just weak forarm muscles. But if you have been playing for 4 years....

But another could be from tilting the guitar up towards your face. Iv'e seen beginners do this alot too.

To see what I'm talking about, first hold your guitar straight up and down, soundhole forward while holding a chord you can do pretty comfortably. Face your head forward.

Now while holding that chord start turning the guitar up towards your face so that you can see the fretboard easier. The back of the neck ends up in the middle of your palm if you turn it far enough right? You have no choice.

It's simple Judo wrist lock. Put the opponents arm in a place that makes it difficult or impossible to easily apply force. It's hard to play guitar effectivly if you are being wrist locked by some Chuck Norris type trying to break your arm.

Similarly,

Alot of beginners do this to themselves because they need to see where each finger is on the fretboard. So they either turn the guitar up towards their face or hunch over the top. Especially if you are small in stature, have a wide guitar, big breasts or gut or a combination of all of the above etc.

Anything that obscures your vision of the fretboard will make you want to go into this position.

Ways to stop doing this.....

1) Get a smaller guitar, or maybe a contoured "rounded back" guitar like an ovation.

2) Learn your chords good enough so that you don't have to see where each individual finger is. If you can see one finger you can easily develop the ability to learn where the other fingers are in relation to that finger with practice.

This is what as known as "position playing". Say, if you want to slide a chord down from the 5th fret to the 3rd, you don't have to see every finger, you only need to see one. You already know where your fingers are in relation to that one finger. This is one of the reasons why barre chords are taught in the first place. They will teach you to know where your fingers are without seeing them.

This is one of the first things I teach beginners, playing in postion using root position power chords. Then learn to add in other notes to make extended chords and other embellishments.

At that time I was very impatient because I was desperate to express myself. I had a very strong urge to write songs. As soon as I was given one very simple picking pattern, i switched off from my lessons and wrote my songs. I needed to bypass the difficult stuff that was time consuming and as a result I developed a bad habit. Not sure if that makes sense.

It makes alot of sense to me. If you want to make music you do it any way you can at that given point in time. Time waits for no one and it won't wait for you. So you get it while you can, 'cause there is no tomorrow so you just do it today.

Makes sense to me at least. Now you want more in your arsenel for next time.

anyway, I'll keep working on it. I saw Eliza Carthy last night, not a guitarist - a fiddle player. What an inspiration, that keeps me going.

xThat's cool.
My main advice to you is do not let your wrist bend backwards (and collapse your hand) while you are practicing.. Hold the guitar in any way you need to to avoid that from happening.

Without actually knowing what guitar you are playing or hearing/seeing you play it's hard to give really objective opinion about exactly what is holding you back. But I do know that if you have been playing that long (4 years) somthing is amiss. I am just listing some common easily fixed problems I've seen over the years.

But whatevewr you do,

Keep on Rockin'

[joeyd929]

I play this blues thing where you rock back and fourth between the 4 and the 1 chord.. I have attached a power tab of the two chords and a small mp3 of exactly how I play it...

The first chord is a D7 played A D F# C

The second chord is A7 played A E G C#

Here is where I deliberately use "bad habits" to get the effect.

For the first chord, my left hand thumb frets the A and D, while my index finger is on the F# and middle finger is on the C. (index and middle play the tritone for D7)

For the second chord, I keep the thumb on A and slide into the A7.

When I slide into the A7, I hammer my third finger on the E and slide the tritone up 1/2 step so it becomes the tritone for the A7 chord.

I have expiremented with several fingerings but to get the effect I want, I need to use the thumb. Do I feel guilty about that? Hell no!! Once Eddie Van Halen was asked about the "rules" of music.

He said (I'll be polite) Screw the rules!! You have to know when to break them. Anyway, give a listen and check out the power tab file, just so you can see the exact chords.

[hairballxavier]

Seer the thing is you can spend a lifetime trying to develop what someone says is perfect technique, but if you do that, when are you going to have time to do something else, like play music?

[juliac]

Just tried to upload my song here but the file is too large. my song "Hidden" can be heard on www.myspace.com/juliacrow (http://www.myspace.com/juliacrow). I play a Yamaha APX500. "hidden" is what i am due to record and the chord I am having trouble with is F (with C in the bass). When i play the chord my left wrist hurts (ive been getting pains in that wrist too). my fingers start to slip - (i have to hold the chord for quite a while) - as the fingers slip the c note then buzzes and first note in the fingering might go dead (i think thats a c note too). My tutor has told me to place my thumb lower on the neck to make it easier to stretch the fingers to the frets - also to lean forwards into the guitar. I def. have my guitar face facing towards me (i.e. i lift it slightly) and yes this has developed so that i can see the chords - i noticed this the other night. i tried playing it so i couldnt see the neck etc but that was really really odd.

Yes ive been playing for 4 years but on and off. i had two 6 month breaks during that time and Ive only just started performing (this year) and that is forcing me to correct my habits because the habits are making the performance not enjoyable. So even though i have been playing guitar a long time I have just basically ignored my issues until now and probably about a year ago. The recording and performing are giving me goals.

I cant believe how long it takes. Yesterday I focused on my song "hidden", just slowing it all right down and moving from chord to chord and seeing what happens. where its not smooth i focused just on that part over and over and over again - robotic and almost obsessive. this reminded me of when i used to learn harmonies for singing (in band) I became really good at it after about year and found i didnt have to put so much work into learning them. as i thought of this it made me appreciate what i was doing with guitar - the need to be just as repeititve and obsessive. I then listened to when the notes buzzed and when they deadened and looked at why that was happening. I think this is a good approach. although a bit boring. My personality can make it really hard to learn things - i talk fast, walk fast, eat fast, and want to be at my destination now. I am constantly frustrated. This is why i have fast-tracked past the basics, like finger position and left hand position. I havent played my songs slow enough to get the sound right. I also have a gremlin on my shoulder saying "you should have got this by now" "whats the point". I am totally aware of all it.

Apart from the obvious incorrect hand positioning and impatience, what i also notice is a lot of tension in my left hand. I am a nervous person and I think i am putting tension into my playing and i think that may have also contributed to the left hand gripping the neck. Yesterday I tried visualising my left hand holding a tomatoe, i was def. more relaxed even if it was only for a brief moment. I have taken up mediation by the way!!!!

anyway, that practice also included me using the pick to strum and focusing on a different song and breaking the parts down into small chunks and just playing that part. the pick is new to me too. i noticed a very very small improvement. that whole practice was about 1.5 hour. also included a couple of scales. it just amazes me how long it all takes.

going to listen to joe's stuff now. thanks for the tips.

x

[juliac]

cheers for that joey. i'll give it a go. :p

[joeyd929]

cheers for that joey. i'll give it a go. :p

Check out this band from my home state of Connecticut, USA. The band is called Farewood. The girl singing is named Leah, she plays bass and her husband Lou plays the guitar. They pretty much write all the music/lyrics They have a few albums and I used to go to their house band parties on occasion.

A friend of mine owned the practice hall where they used to rehearse, that is how I met them..ANYWAY..

When I listened to your music, I thought your voice reminded me of Leah's. Here is al link to Farewood's music. Great local band, here is the link.

http://www.myspace.com/farewood