Minor 6 chord question

[joeyd929]

Can anyone explain this.. I have noticed that the minor 6 chord actually has a Major 6 interval in it.

C minor 6 is C Eb G A

C to A is a Major 6 interval.

The reason I ask is because typically minor means to flat.

A Major 6 chord has C E G A

So I assume it gets it's name from the fact that the third is minor. Just curious why this chord breaks the rules and uses a Major 6 interval for a minor 6 chord. ???

My thory is that IF you flatted the 6 and used a minor 6 interval in the minor 6 chord, you would be playing the enharmonic equivalent of an augmented 5 so this would cause conflict. IT would really be a minor aug 5 and honestly, I don't know if there is such a chord.. Please let me know the real reason if that is not it..

[Apple-Joe]

Hmm, interesting. I have understood it the same way. When I see "Cm6" I think "C-Eb-G-A", not "C-Eb-G-Ab". However, when I see for instance "Dm7", I think "D-F-A-C", not "D-F-A-C#".

[UKRuss]

I think it's just in the name, both chords contain the major 6th so are called 6th chords.

I like to think of the min6 as an inversion of a min7b5 though.

Cm6, C Eb G A is an inversion of Amin7b5, A C Eb G

[Apple-Joe]

Yeah, but when you think about it, would it be very unnatural to assume Cm6 referred to C-Eb-G-Ab? I don't think it would be, as Cm7 is understood as C-Eb-G-Ab. Just because the we're speaking of the 6th degree, it's automatically considered a major 6th, but as soon as we switch to the 7th, it is understood as minor.

Hmm, well, one could always use more precise names for chords, like Dm(min7), Dm(maj7), Dm(maj6) and Dm(min6), etc.

If Cm6 was considered C-Eb-G-Ab it would correspond better with the m7 chords, but it doesn't work that way obviously.

[mjo]

...I like to think of the min6 as an inversion of a min7b5 though.

Cm6, C Eb G A is an inversion of Amin7b5, A C Eb G

That's never occurred to me,....I'm a litle thick sometimes :)
How does that work out with functional analysis ?

I don't see minor6 chords very often. I've always assumed that when someone takes the time to indicate m6, they're trying to indicate something else along with it such as: Melodic Minor or, Dorian.,?

[joeyd929]

Just to throw more insanity in the mix. Amin7b5 can also be used as a sub for F9 (dominant)

Amin7b5 is A C Eb G

F9 is F A C Eb G

[UKRuss]

excellent.

Lydian chord I think, min6?

Not sure about the functional analysis.

Just a normal inversion process of running the C down to the bass.

I just wondered if the whole 6th thing might have sprung from renaming these inversions, perhaps explaining the major 6th conundrum.

[Jed]

A min6 chord is diatonic to the harmonized major scale as a II-6 (ii-6 if you prefer). It only occurs over the 2nd degree of the major scale (all other applicable minor modes have a b6) and it's a substitution (note for note) for the VII-7b5 (vii-7b5) chord 1st inversion.

cheers,

[joeyd929]

There is this book called Chord Construction and Analysis/ elements of jazz and pop series 1. It is written by a Hartford CT conservatory professor (now retired) named Ray Cassarino.

My piano teacher has this book and I was fortunate enough to find a copy on Ebay this past winter.

It is an excellent book that lays out just what the title says, chord construction and analysis. '

It basically starts out covering tetrachords and how they relate to key signatures.

It then gets into scales, intervals, and finally, chord construction and analysis..

If anyone out there has a chance to get their hands on this book please take the opportunity. This book goes into detail about why the minor 6 chord has a Major 6 interval but it takes 3 pages to explain but it makes perfect sense.

This book was written in CT by this professor and the copy I found on Ebay was in the state of Washington...

If anyone is interested in the explanation of the minor 6 chord, I would be glad to quote from the book and try to lay out the examples. It's a bit long but once you read it, the facts become clear as to why it has the Major 6 interval in the minor 6 chord..

[UKRuss]

Why not?

But try to paraphrase or condense. My experience of professors is they know their subject but struggle to communicate efficiently:D

[joeyd929]

Why not?

But try to paraphrase or condense. My experience of professors is they know their subject but struggle to communicate efficiently:D

Totally agree, it can be a bit dragged out. Just leaving for work so when I get home I will work up a condenced version and post it. Thanks for the interest.

[hairballxavier]

Well, the way I learned it Major/minor referrs to the 3rd in the chord.
But referring to a particular note referrs to its position relative nto the major scale.


For instance if I say minoir 6th i am referring to the note a half step below the 6th.

[Apple-Joe]

Very interesting, Joey D. This issue bugs me now after thinking about it for a while. The core of my confusion is the inconsistency of referring to the non-3rd notes of chords.

I look forward to your condensed excerpt.

[SeattleRuss]

It's a minor chord with a major 6th. There are numerous examples of chords that, if you think about it, might not have names that best reflect how they're actually built. This is just convention, happened over time, much like language doesn't always "follow the rules". Don't let it get to you.

[zog]

The reason a maj6 and min6 chord have a major 6th is because back in the classical days it used to be refered to as an add6 to either a major or minor chord. As time went by the add part gave away to just 6 which is why we have C6 or C-6

[JonR]

Think of it like this:
it's a minor chord with a 6th.
And Dm7 is a minor chord with a 7th.
Just so happens that a standard 6th is major and a standard 7th is minor. And a standard triad is major.
So:

"C" = C major triad
"Cm": "m" means lower the 3rd
"C6" = C major triad with a standard (commonest) 6th (major 6th)
"Cm6" = C minor triad with a standard (commonest) 6th (major 6th)
"C7" = C major triad with a standard (commonest) 7th (b7)
"Cm7 = C minor triad with a standard (commonest) 7th (b7)
"Cmaj7 = C major triad with a raised 7th (major 7th)
"Cm(maj7) = C minor triad with a raised 7th (major 7th)

IOW, the convention is:
(a) triads are major - unless stated otherwise ("m").
(b) "m" refers to the 3rd (not any subsequent extension);
(c) 7ths are minor - unless stated otherwise ("maj").
(d) "maj" refers to the 7th (not the 3rd);
(e) any other added note is either major or perfect - unless stated otherwise (preceded with "b" or "#")

(dim chords have their own conventions... ;) )

[joeyd929]

Lots of treat replies, thanx. Just for giggles I am posting what my theory book says about this issue. Ok, here is a direct quote from my theory book.. It is long, but worth the read. Here goes...

"To this point, the identifying chord terms have been consistent with their chord parts. The Major 7th contains a major triad and a major 7th interval; the minor 7th contains a minor triad and a minor 7th interval; the Major 6th has a major triad and a major 6th interval. In all but one other chord in this species there is a departure from this consistency of like terms.

The chord that follows is called the minor 6th, despite its major 6th interval. The construction of the chord is a minor triad plus a major 6th interval. The major 6th interval is used instead of the minor 6th interval because when the minor 6th interval is combined with the minor triad, the result is a combination of tones which is not its own minor 6th chord because it has the same tones as the Major 7th chord built on the minor 6th interval of Ab. (there is more)

Therefore, what began as a c minor 6th chord turns out to be an inversion of A Major 7th instead. The process used in arriving at a more valid minor 6 chord involves a choice between the other two forms of 6th intervals;

THE Major 6th and the augmented 6th. The augmented 6th is eliminated because when it is added to the minor triad, the resulting combinatation of tones is actually the enharmonic equivalent of the chord previously outlined as the minor 7th incorporating the parts C minor triad and minor 7th interval. (aug 6 is enharmonic of minor7)

When the remaining major 6th interval is added to the minor triad the result is for formation C Eb G A, with these tones forming a valid minor 6 chord for two good reasons.

1. It has a predominantly minor sound despite the major 6 interval
2. It doesn't duplicate any other chord built on C.

With the chord thus formed, the conflict of terms arises from the minor of the triad and the major of the 6th interval. These contrasting terms present a choice for arriving at the term for the chord. The term "minor" is given preference over the term "major" for 2 reasons.

1. The triad of 3 tones carries a greater amount of "sound value" than the interval of 2 tones.
2. If the Major is adapted, from the interval, there would be a conflict with the chord previously shown as the Major 6th.

The term "minor" after the triad must therefore be viewed as the more logical choice. What the term "minor 6" does not specify is that the 6th is a major interval, which has to be assumed.

Serving to lend further validity to the term "minor 6" are references which relate chords to their parent scales."

Book: Chord construction and analysis/Elements of jazz and pop, by Ray Cassarino

[Los Boleros]

Yea guys, thats it.

its a regular major or minor chord but with the sixth added.

As far as its usages, I have found that I can throw the Maj6 in for the root chord of a major key. (since I play the tres, I can only throw in a relative minor triad)

As far as a minor key goes, I can throw the minor6th chord in place of any minor chord. :cool:

Ending on a minor sixth chord is very typical for Latin music in minor keys.

[UKRuss]

Lots of treat replies, thanx. Just for giggles I am posting what my theory book says about this issue. Ok, here is a direct quote from my theory book.. It is long, but worth the read. Here goes...

"To this point, the identifying chord terms have been consistent with their chord parts. The Major 7th contains a major triad and a major 7th interval; the minor 7th contains a minor triad and a minor 7th interval; the Major 6th has a major triad and a major 6th interval. In all but one other chord in this species there is a departure from this consistency of like terms.

The chord that follows is called the minor 6th, despite its major 6th interval. The construction of the chord is a minor triad plus a major 6th interval. The major 6th interval is used instead of the minor 6th interval because when the minor 6th interval is combined with the minor triad, the result is a combination of tones which is not its own minor 6th chord because it has the same tones as the Major 7th chord built on the minor 6th interval of Ab. (there is more)

Therefore, what began as a c minor 6th chord turns out to be an inversion of A Major 7th instead. The process used in arriving at a more valid minor 6 chord involves a choice between the other two forms of 6th intervals;

THE Major 6th and the augmented 6th. The augmented 6th is eliminated because when it is added to the minor triad, the resulting combinatation of tones is actually the enharmonic equivalent of the chord previously outlined as the minor 7th incorporating the parts C minor triad and minor 7th interval. (aug 6 is enharmonic of minor7)

When the remaining major 6th interval is added to the minor triad the result is for formation C Eb G A, with these tones forming a valid minor 6 chord for two good reasons.

1. It has a predominantly minor sound despite the major 6 interval
2. It doesn't duplicate any other chord built on C.

With the chord thus formed, the conflict of terms arises from the minor of the triad and the major of the 6th interval. These contrasting terms present a choice for arriving at the term for the chord. The term "minor" is given preference over the term "major" for 2 reasons.

1. The triad of 3 tones carries a greater amount of "sound value" than the interval of 2 tones.
2. If the Major is adapted, from the interval, there would be a conflict with the chord previously shown as the Major 6th.

The term "minor" after the triad must therefore be viewed as the more logical choice. What the term "minor 6" does not specify is that the 6th is a major interval, which has to be assumed.

Serving to lend further validity to the term "minor 6" are references which relate chords to their parent scales."

Book: Chord construction and analysis/Elements of jazz and pop, by Ray Cassarino

LOL, see? I told you!

Note to self: Avoid Ray Cassarino like the plague.:D

[joeyd929]

Did you read the explanation, it actually makes sense? Who ever said that music theory was not complicated? On the contrary, his book spells things out very clearly but it takes some reading and thinking.

I like his book becasue he puts things in a different perspective. The explanation actually makes perfect sense even though it is long winded.

It's ok though, this book is unavailable, you will never find it anyway..

For example, instead of just saying a minor 7 chord contains a 1 b3 5 b7 he puts it in to angles. You have a minor triad AND a minor 7 interval. It makes you think..

[UKRuss]

It wasn't that he didn't have a point or make it clearly, it was more that it was what I was expecting in terms of length, jus made me chuckle that's all.

I wouldn't avoid him like the plague, it was just leg pullin'.

Plague is much worse than a m6.

so I'm told.

His explanation is good with me. He communicates it well.

I liked JONR's use of the "commonest" interval, that made sense to me too.

As someone who plays a m6 chord only every second day of the fifth month of the new decade, every 15 years. I shall now, in usual form, completely forget everything I've just read:(

[joeyd929]

Yep, I usually read the stuff until I'm blue in the face and then forget about it. Interesting how that works because when I "attempt" to improvize lots of this knowledge seems to come to mind as I need it.

[jade_bodhi]

"Cmaj7 = C major triad with a raised 7th (major 7th)



I like JonR's concise definitions, too (probably because he doesn't provide me with anything that shakes up what I think I already know ;) .

My question is this:

Why does JonR say that Cmaj7 has a "raised" 7th? If it's based on the major scale, isn't the 7th note a B, and not raised at all? It seems to me if flatting the 7th is a Bb, "raising" the 7th would be a C note. Thanks.

Jade

[UKRuss]

I see your point.

Jon's use of "raised" means raised from the minor (most common state of the 7th) to the major.

So from Bb to B, remember he's talking b7 meaning minor 7th not necessarily that the interval in every key will relate to a flat note.

Bb is the minor 7th, B is the major 7th.

Hence he says, 7ths are minor unless stated otherwise and every other note added is major or perfect unless stated otherwise which would apply to the 6th.

...and relax.:)

[UKRuss]

Yep, I usually read the stuff until I'm blue in the face and then forget about it. Interesting how that works because when I "attempt" to improvize lots of this knowledge seems to come to mind as I need it.

Now that I could do with some of.

(See, even normal sentence structure has now abandoned me)