Phrasing... Need some inspiration

[Revenant]

I am content with my phrasing at this point. My bends are 100% accurate 99% of the time and I have almost mastered applying a vibrato on them.

I look up to players such as Gary Moore, Joe Satriani, Alan Holdsworth and Steve Vai. Their phrasing is whats attractive to me in their music.

The problem is, I want to achieve a unique voice. I'm tired of people saying "play with emotion" when their definition of the term is playing a bunch of recycled blues licks. I want to try to emulate the sound of exotic intruments as well as the human voice on guitar. But I find that I cannot notice the nuances in these intruments. When trying, it sounds too guitarey.

So what else can I do to evolve phrasing-wise? My style is based a lot on legato, glissando, quick return bends and in general a very sexy way of playing guitar. I tried to upload a clip of me playing earlier on this forum but got an error. I'd like some opinions on my playing. Is there anywhere I can upload to for free?

Okay, I seem to make no sense with this rambling, so down to the question:
What are your tips to make me stand out from the thousands of blues guitarists?

I find that note choice alone doesn't do it for me so no scale suggestions please. Just phrasing

[Revenant]

Ah... I found out there was a file size limit.

Here is a short excerpt of me improvising. I played some bad notes here and there, I'm not really comfortable on the fretboard yet which was why I started the "knowing the fretboard by heart" thread.

Please evaluate my playing, I'd love some fresh ideas for the phrasing issue

[Spidervenom]

I have Marty Friedman's 99 Secret Guitar Phrases DVD, and found it rather helpful. Admittedly, it's mostly blues phrases, but Marty puts a unique spin on quite a few of them.

Regardless, I think that one thing that may help, along with expanding your fretboard knowledge, is to employ more chromatic tones. It takes a lot of practice and use to really get it down to a useful form, but using odd passing tones and more dissonant intervals can really spice up your playing. Too many players fall into the trap of playing phrases that use only consonant intervals. While it's nice, it can become a little dull sometimes.

Also, make sure to employ some string skips/wider intervals in your melodies if you don't already; it's important to use more than short intervals.

[joeyd929]

I am content with my phrasing at this point. My bends are 100% accurate 99% of the time and I have almost mastered applying a vibrato on them.

I look up to players such as Gary Moore, Joe Satriani, Alan Holdsworth and Steve Vai. Their phrasing is whats attractive to me in their music.

The problem is, I want to achieve a unique voice. I'm tired of people saying "play with emotion" when their definition of the term is playing a bunch of recycled blues licks. I want to try to emulate the sound of exotic intruments as well as the human voice on guitar. But I find that I cannot notice the nuances in these intruments. When trying, it sounds too guitarey.

So what else can I do to evolve phrasing-wise? My style is based a lot on legato, glissando, quick return bends and in general a very sexy way of playing guitar. I tried to upload a clip of me playing earlier on this forum but got an error. I'd like some opinions on my playing. Is there anywhere I can upload to for free?

Okay, I seem to make no sense with this rambling, so down to the question:
What are your tips to make me stand out from the thousands of blues guitarists?

I find that note choice alone doesn't do it for me so no scale suggestions please. Just phrasing

Frank Zappa said in a guitar player interview one time that his solos were speech influenced. He would take phrases like "Hey, what's up", or "Get out of here"..or something like that.. He would think of a verbal phrase and try to emulate the rhymical aspects of a verbal phrase into his notes.

It does give you unusual and quite different phrasing.. You can use conventional notes and rifs but just use verbal phrases.. Your solo is excellent by the way.. nice work!

[Spidervenom]

Frank Zappa said in a guitar player interview one time that his solos were speech influenced. He would take phrases like "Hey, what's up", or "Get out of here"..or something like that.. He would think of a verbal phrase and try to emulate the rhymical aspects of a verbal phrase into his notes.

It does give you unusual and quite different phrasing.. You can use conventional notes and rifs but just use verbal phrases.. Your solo is excellent by the way.. nice work!

Steve Vai also does this - it's mentioned in his 10 hour workout.

[UKRuss]

OK. Soime key observations for you.

saying your bends are 100% acurate 99% of the time is the same as saying that your bends are not in fact 100% accurate. I think this is reflected in the passage you posted. there are some specific phrases where the bdsnare spot on and others where they are wildly off.

but the reason is the most important thing. I think it is actually directly linked to your question about phrasing.

Your lack of confidence in your phrasing is what leads you to miss the bends. It's not a technique issue it's a musical issue.

When you are not confident of what note will come next or what notes will sound right at the right time or what your options are, it is like stumbling around in the dark. you might find the door way and then the stairs.

you might equally smash into the door frame and/or fall down the stairs.

Knowledge of your scales and chord tones will be like switching the light on.

Your phrases will become more distinct when you are confident of your resolution and your paths to that resolution (or dissonance if you prefer).

I think we then need to re-evaluate your question. It isn't about phrasing which will come once you have built your knowledge. the question you should be asking is what are my melodic options and how do i go about analysing the progression to apply my knowledge. this, married with a good ear (which you defintely have as your guitar was nicely in tune and your bends when they were executed at the right point where spot on) will lead you top the path of Vai and Satch.

Positives there are too!

I have to say your tone was great, some nice execution of technique in the harmonic bomb and pinch harmonics. nicely put together backing tracks.

if you can marry this with some more basic knowledge you'll be phrasing away like no-one before you.

Start in the simplest way. check out Strictly Ionian in the strictly forum here and get the major scale under those fingers. if you can phrase over that one chord BT I posted you'll be on your way.

And, once that major scale is under your fingers, so are all the modes of the major scale.

it's THE place to start walking before you can run.

Forget the pentatonic stuff for a while and check your 3nps major scael patterns.

think about root, 3rds 5ths and hear for the resolution and the passing tones.

[Spanky]

G'day Revenant.

You may have seen it already, but if not, check out steve vai's demonstration of Freak Show Excess at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p69D-JywNRw. It might give you some ideas about emulating other instruments.

[joeyd929]

Steve Vai also does this - it's mentioned in his 10 hour workout.

Well, that makes perfect sense...Steve Vai used to be Frank Zappa's guitarist on tour...Wonder where he got THAT idea? Hmmm...

[EricV]

Well, he sure has got experience with turning spoken phrases into stuff lines played on the guitar. After all, one of the things that got Vai the title "stunt guitarist" back then was transcribing spoken (or "rapped") phrases by Zappa and then learning them on guitar in order to play them in sync to Frank. Quite difficult rhythm- and pitch wise.
Eric

[joeyd929]

Well, he sure has got experience with turning spoken phrases into stuff lines played on the guitar. After all, one of the things that got Vai the title "stunt guitarist" back then was transcribing spoken (or "rapped") phrases by Zappa and then learning them on guitar in order to play them in sync to Frank. Quite difficult rhythm- and pitch wise.
Eric

Yeah, I would guess that some of the pitches he dealt with were probably in between normal 1/2 and whole steps. Probably some semi pitches or some wierd thing like that. The human voice doesn't follow pitch from perfect A440 and it's counterparts. Gotta try that some day.....

I was thinking of taking a book of something crazy like poetry or something, or maybe a technical book. Read through some sentences and try to emulate the phrasing... Bizarro for sure..!

[EricV]

LOL yeah. During my time at the GIT, I took a lot of jobs to earn extra money to pay for food. Some of them were non-music related, but some of them were actually jobs as a player. One of them involved me providing a "soundtrack" for some people reciting poems at an "open mic" poetry night.
The directions I was given was to NOT play harmonic stuff, nothing pretty and stuff. I had to improvise to those apocalyptical or rather melancholic poems by creating all kinds of weird noises and quirky stuff, depending on the lines of the poem (which I didn´t know in advance)
So I did everything from using some wacky FX (I had borrowed some cheap pedals from fellow students), whammy bar antics, trying to copy the phrasing that the "poet" had used etc.
It was weird, and even though I managed to maintain a serious face ("THIS IS SERIOUS POETRY!") it was rather amusing. Not my cup of tea, even though the guys said that they liked what I did.
Eric

[joeyd929]

LOL yeah. During my time at the GIT, I took a lot of jobs to earn extra money to pay for food. Some of them were non-music related, but some of them were actually jobs as a player. One of them involved me providing a "soundtrack" for some people reciting poems at an "open mic" poetry night.
The directions I was given was to NOT play harmonic stuff, nothing pretty and stuff. I had to improvise to those apocalyptical or rather melancholic poems by creating all kinds of weird noises and quirky stuff, depending on the lines of the poem (which I didn´t know in advance)
So I did everything from using some wacky FX (I had borrowed some cheap pedals from fellow students), whammy bar antics, trying to copy the phrasing that the "poet" had used etc.
It was weird, and even though I managed to maintain a serious face ("THIS IS SERIOUS POETRY!") it was rather amusing. Not my cup of tea, even though the guys said that they liked what I did.
Eric

Hmmm...I would have to smoke a Big blunt for that gig....and I dont' even smoke....anymore.......

[Revenant]

saying your bends are 100% acurate 99% of the time is the same as saying that your bends are not in fact 100% accurate. I think this is reflected in the passage you posted. there are some specific phrases where the bdsnare spot on and others where they are wildly off.

YOu obviously have a better trained ear than me. But as far as I know, you have played for a long time too.
I started out 5 years ago, didn't become serious about it untill a year ago.
Besides, the recording was done quick snap. I'm not trying to excuse my lack of skill or ear, but I think I don't have the ear yet to recognize those microtones I'm off.


but the reason is the most important thing. I think it is actually directly linked to your question about phrasing.

Your lack of confidence in your phrasing is what leads you to miss the bends. It's not a technique issue it's a musical issue.

This was why I started the "knowing the fretboard by heart" thread. But lack of fretboard and scale/arpeggio knowledge shouldn't hold me back from practising phrasing. But, I understand where you're going here, that my phrasing will improve with my fretboard knowledge. If the notes are sour as lemonade, it doesn't matter because thats another issue I'm taking care off. In this thread I aim at phrasing exclusively.
Still, I understand your point.



When you are not confident of what note will come next or what notes will sound right at the right time or what your options are, it is like stumbling around in the dark. you might find the door way and then the stairs.

you might equally smash into the door frame and/or fall down the stairs.

Knowledge of your scales and chord tones will be like switching the light on.


Exactly! As you could hear in the recording, I stumbled a few places but I also produced some good phrases. When I get too excited, I tend to ignore my fretboard knowledge and do leaps of faith. Not a good idea in a live situation which is why my live improvisations are rather dull(going safe ;) ).


I think we then need to re-evaluate your question. It isn't about phrasing which will come once you have built your knowledge. the question you should be asking is what are my melodic options and how do i go about analysing the progression to apply my knowledge. this, married with a good ear (which you defintely have as your guitar was nicely in tune and your bends when they were executed at the right point where spot on) will lead you top the path of Vai and Satch.

Thanks for those encoraging words! It certainly helps being evaluated by others than myself since I am over-critic to my own playing, and I'm sure every other guitarist suffers from this.




Start in the simplest way. check out Strictly Ionian in the strictly forum here and get the major scale under those fingers. if you can phrase over that one chord BT I posted you'll be on your way.

And, once that major scale is under your fingers, so are all the modes of the major scale.

it's THE place to start walking before you can run.

Forget the pentatonic stuff for a while and check your 3nps major scael patterns.

think about root, 3rds 5ths and hear for the resolution and the passing tones.


I've checked out those modal vamps and improvising over such progressions is part of my daily routine. I am starting to notice the tension that the 7th interval can create, and the relief given when resolving to the tonic.
I am slowly recognising intervals such as major/minor third, fifth etc etc...
The problem is, my fingers doesn't know where these are but my ear knows how they sound.



G'day Revenant.

You may have seen it already, but if not, check out steve vai's demonstration of Freak Show Excess at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p69D-JywNRw. It might give you some ideas about emulating other instruments.



Yep, I have seen that. It's one of the most impressive works on guitar I have ever seen. This is what I am aiming for, such originality as he presents in this piece!
Now the problem is being creative myself and not copying his idea...

[UKRuss]

In a way, you have anwered your own question. You're doing all the right things and as these improve, so will your phrasing.

G'luck!

[silent-storm]

You might want to focus some more on rhythm as well. A general observation I have is that a lot of your playing kind of floats overtop of the beat. Thats fine if that is your thing, but you should try and explore the opposite end of the spectrum, which is to be as rhythmically tight as possible.

listen to some earlier michael brecker, when he had his fusion band. That might be more your thing rather then his straight ahead jazz stuff, plus he's playing with mike stern on guitar. Brecker's rhythm is so good it's stupid. He pretty much made it unacceptable for sax players to be rhythmically off. He is probably one of the fastest players to ever play an instrument, but you can still hear every single note perfectly, regardless of speed. It's like a machine gun.

[Revenant]

Yeah, I've found fusion to be more "my thing" than jazz, although I love bebop.
Allan Holdsworth, Frank Gambale and Ric Fierrabacci(bass) is guys I look up to.

Well, I'm from the legato-school so aerial, floating melodies is more my thing. But you're absolutely right, to grow as a guitarist one needs to master it and that means experimenting.

I tried experimenting with "off-beat" Satriani style soloing but I find it too alien.
I like structure, sometimes I'm really pedantic about it.
That's what attracts me with bebop, straight 8th notes give a very floating feel. Bird, Montgomery and the fellas created interesting melodies even though they didn't always play "off-beat".
Now of course, bebop isn't that way all the time, its just the part of it that I like.
I think its all about finding the golden balance between structured and alien. I have a very sensitive ear, and am very critical and a gourmet to music :P .

I have thought of my equipment limiting me. My teacher is a bluesman, so he plays all tube, and i noticed he plays around with his volume tone every now and then. My tone is restricting me from dynamics as I play with much gain. But at the same time, I need this amount of gain for adequate sustain, pinch harmonics and legato. Those are essential to my style and I cannot live without them.
So, If I'd like to experiment with dynamics, I'd have to buy a fender strat and a tube amp as well as different picks in various gauges.
Too bad I'm broke :(

To cut a long story short, I am trying to get the most out of the high-gain sound that I love so much. I play around with the volume knob a little as you probably noticed in my improv that I uploaded. Still, I don't feel that humbuckers give the same "spank" as single coils.

But, I guess you can't have it all :rolleyes: