What makes a song "strong"?

[leppard81]

Lets discuss this topic a bit. :)

I just thought about this for a while, but I cant really come to a conclusion. Of course, there are the obvious things like a strong chorus/melody, a hookline you cant get out of your head, variations via rythm or key changes etc.... But very seldom one of those things alone make it a strong song, its always the sum of all parts.

There´s a few tunes i consider "stronger" or "better" than others, but i wonder if its just a matter of taste mostly? I think The greatest love of all, Time after time, Livin on a prayer or or Ricky Martins Private Emotion are awesome tunes and superior to alot of other songs these artists recorded. Why is it these songs stick out? Very often its the production (just compare "Prayer" to the demo version on the Bon Jovi Box) that makes a song better, but this wouldnt work if the song itself wasnt so great.....

Or how about Sign o´the times by Prince. Without the repetion of that main rythm the song wouldnt be really special IMHO?


What´s your opinion on that?

[jade_bodhi]

Lets discuss this topic a bit. :)

I just thought about this for a while, but I cant really come to a conclusion. Of course, there are the obvious things like a strong chorus/melody, a hookline you cant get out of your head, variations via rythm or key changes etc.... But very seldom one of those things alone make it a strong song, its always the sum of all parts.


I think a song can only be a strong one if it is GREATER than the sum of its parts. Odd that you leave out lyrics in the recipe. I find what makes a good song is the music. The music has to be good to appeal to me, and if the lyrics are good (sometimes I don't even focus my listening on the the lyrics until much later), it can be a great song. Lyrics should not rely on cliched or unoriginal expression. Ideas are few in number, relatively; there are only a few good ideas, but the original expression of those few ideas can be quite varied, limitless even.

I also think taste is a huge factor, no? Some people love country music and some people love funk. What makes a song great will depend what genre it belongs to and how it conforms to the genre at the same time it stretches it. Am I wrong about that?

[Obivion]

I think the thing you're picking out is the easily relatable lyrics. For example, songs like "Livin' on a Prayer" and "The Greatest love of all" recall strong emotions that you've felt. Jon once said that he tried to tell stories with his songs, that people can relate to.
Having said that, I don't feel Livin on a Prayer is a really great song (except for the solo), the modulation up at the end just seems really cheesy and you gotta feel sorry for the poor keyboard and bass player playin the same riff about 50 times. IMO, nearly every single they released from Slippery-Keep the Faith blows it away.
Music is also very subjective. For example, the Police's "Every Breathe you Take" is the most played radio song of all time, but to me, the rhyming sounds stupid and the bakcing seems bland and uninspired, whereas something like Megadeth's "In my Darkest Hour" has truly brilliant lyrics, but is never going to be regarded as a great song.

[Obivion]

Jade, I think you're right about subjectivity, but some things can transcend the genres. For example, althugh I'm not the greatest country or rap fan, I still enjoy songs such as "Wichita Linesman" (that is country right?), or Eminem's "Without Me". Truly great work shines through whatever genre it's in.

[leppard81]

I think a song can only be a strong one if it is GREATER than the sum of its parts. Odd that you leave out lyrics in the recipe. I find what makes a good song is the music. The music has to be good to appeal to me, and if the lyrics are good (sometimes I don't even focus my listening on the the lyrics until much later), it can be a great song. Lyrics should not rely on cliched or unoriginal expression. Ideas are few in number, relatively; there are only a few good ideas, but the original expression of those few ideas can be quite varied, limitless even.

Oh, youre right about the lyrics. Forgot about them! :rolleyes: Actually I´ve been listening to James Taylor yesterday and i think its for sure that his lyrics are a BIG part of his appeal.


I also think taste is a huge factor, no? Some people love country music and some people love funk. What makes a song great will depend what genre it belongs to and how it conforms to the genre at the same time it stretches it. Am I wrong about that?

Mhm, thats a tough question.... I tend to think that if a song is really GREAT it transcends genres, because if a song is really that good the genre doesnt matter. There´s good/great stuff in every genre, but usually very few stuff is as good as that certain song that crosses over. Just take the Gothic Rock genre (one that i do like alot, used here just as an example): Everything in there is very samey, but then there´s a tune like Sisters of Mercy - Temple of love or HIM - Join me that just appeal to about everyone it somehow makes the rest of the genre seem a bit pale, or even worse, mediocre...... These songs clearly stand above the rest.....

[Blutwulf]

I had a few e-mail exchanges with Jim Peterik a couple of years ago. The guy wrote some of the "strongest" (both commercially successful and/or memorable) songs from the 70's and 80's. Perhaps the 90's too, but I am out-of-touch with modern pop/rock.

From "Vehicle" by Ides of March back in the day to the stuff he wrote for Sammy Hagar to .38 Special to the wildly successful songs by Survivor, he basically wrote the backdrop of songs that were popular with both the AOR and top-40 fans.

Anyway, I recall him telling me that he wrote most of his things on a bass or acoustic guitar. He'd marry a melody snippet with a riff/hook/etc. for the guitars. Think of the opening to Sammy Hagar's "Heavy Metal" Peterik wrote, for instance, or "Eye of the Tiger" he wrote for Survivor.

Having said that, a good hook and memorable melody being the roadmap to a strong song is hardly a major newsflash. Like, we all knew that already, right? But what I have noticed about the strongest and most successful is the relative simplicity of those elements. The entire appeal of a song like "Eye of the Tiger" is the simple thrumming and two power chords.

Simple and strong music does not need to be infantile or "poppish." Some of your favorite songs by your favorite bands will probably not be the songs you'd pick to showcase their playing, but probably are their simplest.

[leppard81]

I ADORE Jim Peterik - his work with Survivor is the best thing there is!!! :) It just wanted to say that!

[jade_bodhi]

Jade, I think you're right about subjectivity, but some things can transcend the genres. For example, althugh I'm not the greatest country or rap fan, I still enjoy songs such as "Wichita Linesman" (that is country right?), or Eminem's "Without Me". Truly great work shines through whatever genre it's in.

We definitely agree. I'm so deep into folk music that I may never stretch my own playing much beyond that genre, but I, too, liked some of Eminem's stuff, the Marshall Mathers show, etc. I don't know what "Witchita Linesman" is. Why do you question whether it's country? I guess we get in trouble when we try to draw distinct lines between genres.

[leppard81]

I think the thing you're picking out is the easily relatable lyrics.

Oh, youre right. Didnt even notice that. But I probably picked it subconsiously that way, but i think that it had more to do with the overall feeling i get as these songs seem to deliever the "whole package" to me and at least feel more thought through than other songs.....

Oh, and another song that seems to be VERY strong has got to be Nelly Furtado´s "Turn out the lights" (just to use an example with not-so-relatable lyrics). It´s got everthing. All kind of hooklines; from "scratching noises in the the intro to the strong chorus and its use of repeating the words to the acoustic guitar solo - IMHO a prime example of cool songwriting. Or maybe that´s just my weird taste???:confused: :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An-8xzuCwqA

[Steinberg]

If the female lead singer is hot, then the song must be strong. :p

[Obivion]

Jade, I got this offf Wikipedia to clarify matters:

"Wichita Lineman" is a popular song written by Jimmy Webb in 1968, first recorded by Glen Campbell and widely covered since. Campbell's version, which appeared on his 1968 album Wichita Lineman, reached #3 on the US charts, remaining in the Top 100 for 15 weeks. It has been referred to as 'the first existential country song'.

And yeah Leppard, I agree "Turn off the lights" was very catchy.

[Spino]

Heard the version of Witchita Lineman by Cassandra Wilson? She really makes it her own.

[jade_bodhi]

Jade, I got this offf Wikipedia to clarify matters:

"Wichita Lineman" is a popular song written by Jimmy Webb in 1968, first recorded by Glen Campbell and widely covered since. Campbell's version, which appeared on his 1968 album Wichita Lineman, reached #3 on the US charts, remaining in the Top 100 for 15 weeks. It has been referred to as 'the first existential country song'.

The "first existential country song"? That is an intriguing claim. What does it mean? What are the lyrics? In the interest of furthering the discussion about great songs, let's look at these lyrics and see if they are existential.

I am a lineman for the county and I drive the main road
Searchin' in the sun for another overload
I hear you singin' in the wire, I can hear you through the whine
And the Wichita Lineman is still on the line

I know I need a small vacation but it don't look like rain
And if it snows that stretch down south won't ever stand the strain
And I need you more than want you, and I want you for all time
And the Wichita Lineman is still on the line

And I need you more than want you, and I want you for all time
And the Wichita Lineman is still on the line

I don't know what's existential about these words, do you? What does existential mean anyway? Actually, the words don't seem that great or even philosphical. It must be a wonderful tune if this is considered a great song. Blutwulf, you know philosophy, don't you? Why is this an existential song?

[Blutwulf]

Jimmy Webb wrote a bunch of sprawling, emotive songs back in the day. Glen Campbell + Webb = pretty solid impact.

Webb wrote a genre of country/poprock that used almost "operatic" elements and sweeping transitions that made most performers sound a little pretentious, even. Andrew Lloy Webber's melodies are similar. Think of Webb as being the Jim Steinman of the 60's. Well, okay, Webb and Steinman would both disagree, but you get my point...

Having said that, a Webb tune was money in the bank, and I wish I had the guy's catalog and royalties.


Blutwulf, you know philosophy, don't you? Why is this an existential song?
Whoever called it that was ascribing a flavor more than a philosophical categorization, I suspect. However, it can be argued to be such if one were into dormroom debates and hyperbole. By that standard, a significant portion of lyricism is either goping to be a) existential or b)rationalist. That is the nature of lyricism.

From a lyrical standpoint, if you want to call something "existential" the lyric needs to strip away pretense and expose things "As They Are." That is, a turtle shell is a "weighty protective thing on a reptile's back" and not "a tortoise's portable home, wandering about the world of transience." An existential lyric is a lyric that does the opposite of most other lyricism - it unapologetically waxes pedantic.

In "Wichita Lineman," the lyric is essentially a matter wherein the singer is accepting his existential lot in life, and is seeing things As They Are. To call it an "existential" song is a bit pretentious, though...

[Obivion]

I still remember Homer singing "Witchita Lineman" on the Simpsons. Sheer genious...

[jade_bodhi]

From a lyrical standpoint, if you want to call something "existential" the lyric needs to strip away pretense and expose things "As They Are." That is, a turtle shell is a "weighty protective thing on a reptile's back" and not "a tortoise's portable home, wandering about the world of transience." An existential lyric is a lyric that does the opposite of most other lyricism - it unapologetically waxes pedantic.

In "Wichita Lineman," the lyric is essentially a matter wherein the singer is accepting his existential lot in life, and is seeing things As They Are. To call it an "existential" song is a bit pretentious, though...

You know, when I read that note that first used "existential" to describe Witchita Lineman, I asked myself how could this be the first existential song? I had a hunch that that kudo would go to Hank Williams. Now that I read your definition, I'm even more sure of my hunch. He stripped it all away and left nothing but the pain. Even the voice, according to your definition, was stripped bare.

What do you think?

[Blutwulf]

Well, I would still be hesitant to whip out the "existential" moniker on a lyric. The pain in a Hank W song is still more related to lyrical poetry, shot through with metaphors and presentation of an entity as something more than the entity itself.

But, like I say, if one wants to divide lyrics into two groups, existential and rational, then Williams would usually be the former, sure.