Music colleges

[Wizbit81]

Hi guys! I'm 20, just finished university and want to be a proffessional guitar player, (to session standard if I can). I've been playing about 6 years and got serious about four years ago. I attended the guitar institute in London for a summer course last year and passed that and am looking to the future now. Really I want to know where the best place to study is, Berklee, GIT, guitar institute in London, ACM in Guildford etc. My readings pretty poor, (I am I guitar player after all), but I'm reasonably technically competent and reasonable in the theory stakes. Any advice you could give would be appreciated. Also, if anyone knows the whole syllabus for Berkley, (in terms of recommended reading), that would be handy too.
Cheers,
Chris

[Blackbolt]

Hey.
I know a few guys who went to the ACM and said it was a pile of ****e. It's full of dossers and wanna-be rock gods. What is good about it is that the teachers are really good and well connected, what's bad is that it costs a bomb to go there (£6K a year). I've heard **** loads about Berklee, but I don't know any facts.

It's worth investigating Jazz courses even if you don't really like Jazz because that's usually where most of the really skilled players go and I'm guessing that you want to go to college to become the best player you can, so being around really good players is very useful. Royal Academy of Music in London has a top notch Jazz course, but I got the impression that they are miles up their own arses. Guildhall's okay from what I've heard, and so is Trinity, but they're quite relaxed. Leeds College of Music has got a good Jazz course as well as a commercial music course.

If you're not going to bother with Jazz then I don't really know, you don't tend to get many rock courses or anything like that. You only really get classical guitar courses, but I couldn't be completely wrong and just haven't noticed them.

I don't think you need to worry about sight reading because only classically trained guitarists seem to be any good at it and there's not many of them these days. Obviously it's a useful skill but hardly essential.

Was that any use?
(Or was it just boring?)

[Guni]

Hi Blackbolt,

Great reply - I think that pretty much sums it up what you can do in the UK. I don't know too much about what's happening in those schools though.

Personally, I think it's also a question of money. If you have the dough and really want to dig in for 4 years I do recommend going to Berklee. I don't wanna sell it to you (I had some very hard times there too) but to me this was the best thing that happened to me. maybe have a look at these posts http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=27 and http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=85

Guni

[Blackbolt]

Yeah, if money is no problem then Berklee is the place you want to be going (if you can get it, of course, I imagine it's well tough).

I briefly considered going to America to study because places like Manhattan School of Jazz and Berklee are bordering on the mythical and legendary. Money was an issue, unfortunately (and I figured that it was a long way to go and a lot of money to spend and I probably wouldn't get in - oh well!) so I stayed on home soil, which has it's advantages.

Oh yeah, Birmingham Conservatoire has got a pretty funky Jazz course going on as well, but I've heard there's not much room for anything else, it's just straight ahead Jazz (crikey!).

[Wizbit81]

Hi guys! Thanks for your advice. I've looked at going to Berklee but feel a bit intimadated by the reputation. Also, when I looked at the course it seemed to be 75% music and 25% other subjects like Maths, Philosophy, history and stuff, (This may be me misinterpreting their info though). Do you really think it's worth me applying even though I'm mainly self taught with little reading skills or trad. music knowledge? I always feel inadequate around 'proper players.' Currently I plan to go to the Guitar Institute in London in January and complete their one year diploma course, (So I'll be finished next Julyish). If you guys don't know the place it was set up by some of the first students to attend GIT in America and uses a similar syllabus, (I think). After that I could use the acquired knowledge and skills to then apply to Berklee. What do you guys think to that idea?

[Guni]

Originally posted by Wizbit81
Hi guys! Thanks for your advice. I've looked at going to Berklee but feel a bit intimadated by the reputation. Also, when I looked at the course it seemed to be 75% music and 25% other subjects like Maths, Philosophy, history and stuff, (This may be me misinterpreting their info though). Do you really think it's worth me applyingWell, think of Berklee like this: There's all and everything for eveyone. When ya are talking about general education courses then these are included in the Degree programm. Most internationla musicians go for the Diploma, so just music music music ....

Furthermore, there are tons of people that attend Berklee that are not good players. Especially in the beginning it is hard to find your way around and getting the right contacts. But the longer you are at the school the more you can focus on your thing, get to know the right people, teachers, classes etc ......

So, I say it is worth applying ......
Currently I plan to go to the Guitar Institute in London in January and complete their one year diploma course, (So I'll be finished next Julyish). If you guys don't know the place it was set up by some of the first students to attend GIT in America and uses a similar syllabus, (I think). After that I could use the acquired knowledge and skills to then apply to Berklee. What do you guys think to that idea?That's the school in Acton right? I've been there about 4 years ago when I applied for a teaching job. I also spoke with a few students and they didn't seem to be that happy about this entire thing. OK, this is subjective, and we probably should ask someone who attended the school. I didn't get the position because it all was a big mess and noone seemed responsible or in charge. Now, I am glad that it didn't work out.

I dunno what your plans are but for sure the Guitar Institute would be a great preparation for Berklee. So you could go there afterwards. If it's a question of either or then I suggest you go to Berklee.

Guni

[Wizbit81]

Thanks Guni, you've been a great help. Yeah the GI is in Acton, yes in terms of administration its a complete mess and no-one knows whats going on at any time of day, but the teachers are good and the syllabus seems sound, (I did the summer course there last year.) With regards your comments about Berklee I agree it definitely seems worth a go, as long as I'm not surrounded by a legion of Vai's ability. Berklee's full up for the semster starting September though so I won't apply for then, but maybe next year after a primer in Acton.......................
Also, before I forget, could you tell me what books were recommended reading at Berklee so I can prepare. I know about William Leavitts Modern Method 123 and have ordered that, but I don't know any more. Any help you could give would be appreciated.

Chris:D

[Guni]

Hi Chris,

As you have a full year of GI infront of you I'd think that you will be fine playingwise.

What I suggest is that you try to get as much theory in your head as possible, advantage being that you can probably test out of some classes when you get to Berklee. Also it will make life so much easier when you can focus on what you wanna do and are more or less set with say eartraining. For theory there are no books Berklee uses. The material is all written by Berklee teachers and this is not published (well, some might be available).

I for sure can get you more detailed list at some point (if I'm able to find the Berklee schedule again :-) but that's it in general.

Feel free to ask if there's something else.

Guni

[Wizbit81]

Thanks for your help Guni, I really appreciate it. If you find that list it would be great but its not too important.

On another note, this site is excellent! I've never found somewhere as useful with so many helpful people around. If I can contribute anything to things here I will.

See you on the forums, and thanks again,

Chris

[EricV]

Just wanted to add that the website of the GIT / Musicians Institute has recently been completely updated and now has an all new navigation and lotsa new things to read up on.

Check it out:
http://www.mi.edu

You can check out the faculty of the GIT there too... some great players in there, like Brett Garsed, Scott Henderson, Joy Basu, Dan Gilbert, Jamie Findlay...
Warm regards
Eric

[Guni]

No problem Chris. Glad that you like the forums!!!

I would be very interested how ya doing at the GI. Would ya let us know pls? I am sure there are more visitors that think about attending it.

Eric, yeah cool the new site from MI. Oh, I didn't know that they do offer a 4 year Degree. Nice.

FYI as we didn't have it so far Berklee is under www.berklee.edu (surprise surprise) but I also wanna mention www.berkleepress.com - it's the 'publishing arm of the college'.

Ok, I gotta have a look at those picking examples by Steve Morse now.......:D

cu all laterz,

Guni

[EricV]

Yeah, the GIT is changing their program and stuff quite a bit... it´s cool to see that. They´re also offering courses in guitar repair and luthering now etc.

I am familiar with the Berklee Press site, I like that one a lot, I read the interviews with Jon Finn and Jim Kelly there ( two absolutely awesome players, by the way ), great source.

Is the "Open Position"-thing ( I think that is what it was called ) still going on, that Berklee newsletter ? I remember we had some stuff by them at Guitar4U, like the Vinnie Moore- and the George Benson-interview
Warm regards
Eric

[Guni]

Is the "Open Position"-thing ( I think that is what it was called ) still going on, that Berklee newsletter ? I remember we had some stuff by them at Guitar4U, like the Vinnie Moore- and the George Benson-interviewHi Eric,

Yep, I am on it. My main goal is to get Berklee to allow us to publish all Open Position articles on iBreathe.... It's summer break now and things are running slow there..... but I do hope to get a positive answer soon.

Guni

[Padawan]

Hey guys, I'm a bit confused about all those colleges. I want to study electric guitar very soon and in Germany (where I don't want to stay!) we don't have to pay for the college unless it is a private school. So do I have to pay for studying in Britain in general or only at ACM, GIT etc.?
I would also be interested in studying in France, if anyone knows any schools where you can study mainly electric guitar.

[Blackbolt]

You don't have to pay anything extra to go to music college, generally. You DO have to pay tuition fees, which is the same for every University in the UK, and they are about £1200 a year. These fees were pretty contraversial when they came in, and the government are thinking about introducing MORE fees (or have they already done this? I don't pay enough attention).

However, some colleges charge you extra. The LIPA, founded by Sir Paul McCartney, charges a lot, and the ACM charges as well. I'm not sure about all the colleges that charge extra, but generally there's plenty that don't. Also, most of the good ones don't charge extra.

Top colleges in Britain: (by no means in this comprehensive)

Royal Academy of Music
Royal College of Music
Guildhall School of Music and Drama
Trinity
Leeds College of Music
Birmingham Conservatoire
Royal Northern College of Music

You'll have to send off for prospectuses for these because I don't know which do electric guitar. I don't any of these charge moe than £1200 a year.

BUT (a big but!), foreign students tend to have to pay about £10,000 a year to go to these places. I'm not sure why. I guess that's enough to put you right off really.

Sorry dude. Hope some of that helps.

[Padawan]

Thank you very much Blackbolt, that was very helpful.
I know ashc was at ACM, so maybe he (but the others as well) could answer my following question:
Why go to places like ACM where you have to pay extra? Is it the only place where you don't have to play a second instrument and focus on pop and rock?

[PhrygianX]

I was considering M.I. as well, but I figure M.I. is nowhere near as prestigious or respected in the music world as is Berklee, so I'll probably end up taking out $50,000 in loans and attending there instead.

As for the recommended reading, the Berklee College of Music website has a recommended reading section. It also has a sample test section for the four main areas out of which you can test if you understand them well enough. The theory section is very easy, so I assume if you're even the slightest versed in theory you'll test out of that with ease. Basically you just have to identify chords on the staff and intervals as well. The four main courses are arranging, ear-training, harmony and music techology. Ear-training and music technology were my downfall.

Berklee recommended reading:

www.berklee.edu/core/readlist.htm

[Blackbolt]

Thank you very much Blackbolt, that was very helpful.
I know ashc was at ACM, so maybe he (but the others as well) could answer my following question:
Why go to places like ACM where you have to pay extra? Is it the only place where you don't have to play a second instrument and focus on pop and rock?

First off, I'm not sure how much the ACM charges. I could be mistaken in saying it charges a lot, but that was what my friend who went told me. Find out for yourself how much it is and then consider it. Anyway

The ACM is very well funded and this has benefits in some ways. However, I've heard you have to put up with large amounts of corporate sponsorship, for example: 'The Fender Room' has vintage guitars in glass cases on the walls and a fender logo coming out of a light and moving round the room. Nice, huh? This is where guitar lessons take place. apparently. All, the instrumental teaching is done classrom style, where as in all music colleges (or 'conservatoires' as they are otherwise know) you will get one to one tuition.

The second instrument. Playing a second instrument is not always a necessity, e.g. Leeds College of Music (where I went) doesn't require to play a second instrument, but requires you to take lessons in piano when you get there. These lessons start from total beginner level. A lot of places expect a second instrument as a way of judging musical ability, dedication and experience, i.e. if you play more instruments you're likely to be more interested and have a wider musical background (but this is not necessarily the case). Playing a second instrument is a very good thing to learn, even if it is just basics on piano. Generally, you aren't expected to be amazing at your second instrument, just competent, but it is high expectations like these that mean the top players go to these colleges.

As for why ACM and other places charge a lot of money? Who knows. Part of it is that they are NOT a higher education faculty, and so their funding from the government is different (lower) per pupil, so they must make this shortfall up some how. However, Leeds College of Music (LCM) is also not a higher education faculty, both LCM and ACM primarily teach further education, but LCM only charges normal degree rates (approx £1200).

In case you're confused: Higher Education - degrees, master's degree, doctorates, etc. i.e. - university pupils aged 18+
Further Education - diplomas, BTEC, and similar stuff, i.e. a college for pupils aged 16+

A further education faculty may offer degree, masters and doctorates, but it will primarily teach college courses, and the opposite is true for higher education stuff: the may offer college courses, but they will mainly offer dergrees etc.

What kind of institute it is has no bearing on how good the teaching is. It does mean, as I found out at LCM that you have a lot of teenagers running about and treating the place like ****. My apologies if you are in that category.

[Jamie FT]

Wow!!! After high school I wanted to go on doing music stuff and someday make a career out of it somehow (I don't just mean like "I have an idea, I'll just be in one of the most unique, inspirational bands ever! Easy!" type thing, I mean like a session guitarist) and I never knew Leeds was so good for that! I live in Leeds and this is a big boost to my confidence, if there is anything else I should know about LCM I would definately like to hear it! :)

[Blackbolt]

LCM - The Lowdown

I went on the BA Jazz course. This was good and bad. The facilities aren't exactly top notch, but it affects drummer's the most, guitarist get off quite light. The guitar teachers are good, Jez Franks is an animal, Pete Sklaroff is clinical and has unbeleivable technique, Ulrik is a beast, James Taylor's okay.

The other degree course is the BMus in Popular music. Good, but its four years with one of them being an industry year working within the community, so if that's not your thing then... This has a wider spread, but I'm not sure what the standard is like.

There's recording courses etc. as well, with very good studio facilities, but unfortunately too many people needing to share them.

If you want to get good at guitar, go on the jazz course. Jazz isn't really my thing, and all I wanted to do was get good at drums. So if you want to get good then this is a very good way to push yourself hard. There's lots of very good players at LCM, but also there's lots of players new to Jazz. Three of my best friends are guitarists and they hadn't played basically zero Jazz before they got there, so you don't need to be a total Jazz boff to get in. The guitarists seemed to have the hardest time there, as there were quite a few of them which made it competitive at times and the difference between rock guitar and Jazz is vast, so there's quite a steep learning curve.

Anyways, go to an open day. You know the playhouse at the end of the Headrow? LCM is right next to it, just opposite the Wardrobe Bar. There's also loads of further education courses as well, but I don't know much about them. There's pop courses and stuff.

Oh yeah, the second best thing about it:

You get compulsary modules in Latin Percussion, where you play in a samba band (everyone, not just drummers) with a guy called Jesse Bannister who is the man!

The best thing about LCM (for me):
Take the Indian Classical music module. Oh my God, it will blow your mind. It makes you look at music in ways you never thought possible, and you get to work with Dharambir Singh, who is someone I will never forget. Indian music has a totally different concept, approach and system that it will change and add so much depth to your playing.

Anyways. It's good at LCM, but not the best of the best. I had a great time there, but some people didn't. You know, it's swings and roundabouts. I went with such high expectation, and it didn't quite live up to these, so I got down about it, and then Ig ot used to it, and then by the end I realised (too late) that I was having the time of my life, then I had to leave. Oh well, such is life!!

Hope that helps. Anyways, check it out and see what YOU think.

PS - I'm now living with my prog rock band made up of LCM mates from the Jazz course. Top players all.

Go with your instincts!!

[Padawan]

@PhrygianX
Yeah, Berklee must really be good. Too sad my father is no Don Corleone.
I tried the link but it doesn't work :confused:

@Blackbolt
Wow, thanks Blackbolt, that was very detailed and well explained.
I'll pass my "general qualification for university entrance" (i looked it up in the dictionary, in germany we say "Abitur") this year, so it would be good to profit from it.
But I'm not sure about Britain, I heard everything is quite expensive there...

[PhrygianX]

You should just go to the site at Berklee.edu. You'll find everything you need to know in there.

Why would your father have to be a mafia don? That is confusing to me. It's about $80,000, sure, and my father can only afford to front one year, but I already got $10,000 in loans, and I'm certain you could get more as an inbound student, especially if you got higher grades than I got. There's also a World Audition Tour during which you can audition and if your skills are impressive you can win a few scholarships and you might really want to give that a shot. If you mean because it's prestigious and therefore you believe only the creme de la creme can get in, think again. I have a couple of friends who're bottom-rung middle class who got into Berklee. You don't have to know someone to get in. You have to have relatively high test scores on your SAT (or German equivalent), have graduated high school, and be well enough versed in music theory to be able to pass the initial testing. Short of that the only other requirement is getting your application in before the deadline. You need to also consider how important a Berklee degree would be. It's basically the Harvard of music schools. Once you have a Berklee degree, if you have an ingenuity at all, you'l make that 40 or 50G back pretty quickly within your field.

[Padawan]

Hey PhrygianX, that's interesting. But I'm not sure if I would take 50000$ in loans. I'd have to pay this money back on my own and I would'nt trust in being able to do this. Moreover, in Germany for example you don't have to pay for studying at a good university at all. And there's a big difference between 0 and 80000.
I also don't think I could get a scholarship because my playing sucks :( (that's why I want to finish this damned school and focus on practicing for a few years).
Anyway, I know that in America studying is a totally different thing and I think it's great that you want to go to Berklee. You'll surely have a great time there!

[ChrisJ]

There are plenty of good music schools around, I taught at MI for several years and now I am the Director of Education at Tokyo School of Music so I have some insight on the "Education Business." I would like to comment on some of the posts and also give my opinions on how to pick the right school for you.

1) Tuition - With music schools you get what you pay for. The school I run here in Tokyo is $16,000 a year for two years. It is way more expensive than the other schools in the area. Why? Most schools by law, have to offer 10, 90 minute classes a week. We offer 15. The reason is simple, we want you to work in the music business and in order to do so, 10 classes a week won't cut it. The price of your education is based on not just the amount of your classes but also on who is doing the teaching. Many schools hire on guys that are not really working in the business so you can pay them $10 an hour. But the schools who hire on working musicians have to pay them more. Let's face it, I get paid a couple hundred dollars an hour for session work, why would I teach at a music school for a tenth of that? So, you get what you pay for. Cheap is definitely not better.

2) Location - When I was in the same position as you (18 years ago) I considered both MI and Berklee. The reason I chose MI is simple, I wanted to stay after I graduated. Berklee is a great school from what I understand but I couldn't imagine staying there after I graduated. It is a little too far from the music business and there are a ton of musicians in Boston making it hard to find a gig. MI is right in the middle of the business so most of the teachers you get have big names and/or big gigs. I graduated and stayed in LA for six or seven years. LA was a springboard for many other things for me. Another great school in LA is LAMA (Los Angeles Music Academy). If you just want an education and then plan to go back to England, Berklee, MI or LAMA are all good choices.

3) degree - If you can get one, do. As you have your math and science credits from your previous education, you should be able to get a degree. Will a degree get you a gig? NO, it means nothing to the music business BUT it means everything to the "Education Business." With a degree and some moderate success in the music business after you graduate, a teaching position helps pay the bills. Remember this: There is no shortage of great musicians, and no shortage of working musicians and no shortage of musicians with degrees but there is a shortage of great working musicians with music degrees. Berklee can offer a degree.

4) "Graduating from a music school with a good reputation, you should be able to earn 40 - 50g a year" - Ha, ha, ha, ha!!!! That is the funniest thing I have ever heard. The world is filled with over-educated musicians who deliver pizzas for a living. Don't get me wrong, I believe that education is the key to success but don't trick yourself into believing that an education will guarantee you work. If I have any advice here, it is this: Pick a "business" school rather than an "art" school. I won't mention any names but there is a very famous music college in NYC that I visited a few years ago. It offers everything a student of Jazz would want: Wayne Shorter, Weather Report ensemble classes, etc... It costs about 150 grand for the four years including your living expenses. It struck me as odd however, 150g to learn jazz which in exchange earns you about 20 dollars a gig in NYC. If you took a loan to pay for your education, doing jazz gigs, it would take you 50 years to pay it back. Pick a school that teaches you how to survive in the business. One that even offers you classes on publishing and copyright laws. A great school in LA, Citrus College focuses on the concept of "making a living in the music business". Remember the music business is looking for musicians who sell music more so than musicians who are great players.

5) "You don't really need to be able to read music" - True for schools like MI or LAMA. Bad idea for Berklee. Guni would know more than me about this subject but most colleges will not let you into the ensemble classes untill you can read the charts.

Anyway, all the schools that have been mentioned all have good reputations. The next step is finding one that suits your goals. Best of luck...

-CJ

[Padawan]

Thanks alot Chris, that was a valuable post for everyone in my situation, I also just read your artikel "playing for life"!
I will now look for similar places like MI that also include the business aspect and have a good reputation, but where the tuition is not that high. In Germany for example the teachers get paid by the government (by our taxes), that's why it's not so expensive to study here.
Finally I want to make a list including all (all that I know) Colleges described as above, so that also other guys can profit from it.
So if there are other people here in the same situation as I am, it would be cool if we could work together!

[Jamie FT]

Thanks a lot blackbolt! It sounds fantastic! I'm now thinking of doing a BTEC in popular music, the course sounds amazing.

[PhrygianX]

Yeah, that was just an entirely unfounded assumption on my part as my friends haven't graduated Berklee yet, so I don't know how true that is and I'm certain you know better than I how it works with guys with degrees. I would think that if you got out with a Berklee degree and worked your tail off the job of making that loan money would be brought to you by your own hard work and as an incidental to your exceptional education as well as ingenuity you'd pull it off pretty well.

You're the guy I e-mailed about a month ago and you helped me out a lot, but I decided against M.I. in the event that I got into Berklee in thinking that Berklee was the obvious better choice. Am I wrong in this? I assumed it was like comparing Harvard to Columbia, or worse, Harvard to the University of Missouri or something. Isn't M.I. simply a technical school? I struggle to find the realistic options presented to one with that kind of degree, but again, as alumnus and former teacher to M.I., I assume you'd know far better than I. L.A. certainly has the environment factor for one with my kind of personality.