improvising

[peter_traj]

hi fellas. the thing i enjoy mosy is improvising. i use the progression from the house of the rising sun( Am-C-D-F-E7).it is actually the song minus the vocals and guitar,i have it on CD. i use this because its in Am and the tempo is slow and easy to play against. now i can do bends and hammer ons and slides and vibratos etc, and mix them all up and throw in some double stops but i have hit a rut.now matter what extra techniques i use my improvising sounds the same. a friend of mine at work said that i am probably using the same phrasing through out the prgression and thats why it sounds like a repeated tune all the time.but what is phrasing exactly? is it like changing the speed of my fingers is changing my phrasing. could you offer some advise please or reccomend a book.also when profesionals improvise do they always improvise over the chord in the bar with the intervals of that chord and its tensions and then when next bar comes they use the next chords tones .i use the Am pentatonic through out the whole progression and just throw in some B and F notes to add colour but always resolve them to the pentatonic notes .it always sounds in tune but no matter what different techniques i apply the whole thing just sounds the same. i go all over the fret board trying to give it a different feel but i just dont know how to make it more interesting.if i have to only use the chord tones of the chord that begins on each bar and its tensions then i would have to memorise those tones and their position on the fret board and then makes sure i change in time and that just sounds so hard. i would appreciate any advice, thanks and hope to hear from you,bye now, Peter

[szulc]

Sing through several bars, without thinking about your guitar. Do it until you get some good soulful ideas that don't sound like something a guitar would play. Then record them and try to learn what you sang. Your singing is going to have a natural rhythm and it will pause when you breathe, your guitar playing should do this also.

You could also anaylize the progression a bit to find some alternative choices.
Am C D F
Am C E7
Am C D F
Am E7 Am E7

Modally something like this:

Am could be the ii of G major :A Dorian
the iii of F Major :A Phrygian
or the vi of C major :A Aeolian

C could be the I of C major :C Ionian
the IV of G major :C Lydian
or the V of F major :C Mixolydian

D could be the I of D major :D Ionian
the IV of A major :D Lydian
or the V of G major :D Mixolydian

F could be the I of F major :F Ionian
the IV of C major :F Lydian
or the V of Bb Major :F Mixolydian

E7 could be the V of A Major :A Mixolydian
or the V of A Harmonic :A Phrygian Dominant
or A Melodic :E Mixo-Lydian b6

Arpeggios:
Am7
CM6, CM7
DM6, DM7
FM6, FM7
E7, E9

or precede each chord with a:
Dim7(Dim 7 sub for Cycle 4) 1/2 below the root,
or a Dom7 down a fourth(Cycle 4)
or a Dom7 up 1/2 step (tritone sub for cycle 4).

Is this enough choices yet?

[peter_traj]

thanks James i will try the singing suggestion , it makes good sense.
im not clear on the rest.
the arpeggios i understand.
with the modes,are you sugesting that for eg; i use the notes of the A dorian and A phrygian to improvise against the Am chord in the progression?
and when you say precede each chord with a dim7 etc, do you mean for eg; before the song changes from the Am to the C chord that i pick the dim7th of C major ?
below is a diagram of the notes that i use to improvise over the house of the rising sun progression. the black dots are making up the blues scale. i also use the Bs and Fs and some chromatics.

[szulc]

The scale shown is A Natural Minor (A Aeolian) with an added b5.
See the article "Moving from the Unfamiliar to the Familiar Part I" to see how to get the other modes form the Pentatonic.


The ideas I presented are called secondary dominants.
the progression becomes.
You can either steal 2 beats from the previous chord or from the next chord to make room for these added chords,

(E7) Am
(G7)C
(A7) D
(C7) F

etc...

or

(G#Dim7)Am
(BDim7) C
(C#Dim7)D
(EDim7) F

etc...

or

(Bb7) Am
(Db7) C
(Eb7) D
(Gb7) F

Now you can re analyze all these and see what scale will fit, or use arpeggios etc...

James

[peter_traj]

hi buddy. are you suggesting that i use chords to improvise against a chord progression? i never thought tha was done. i thought that the closest you would go to using chords for improvising would be power chords which i do use. anyway i will try it. and i read your article on modes and the pentatonic and i am clear on that now. thanks mate! im already thinking of my next question!!!

[szulc]

are you suggesting that i use chords to improvise against a chord progression?

The idea is to change what chords you "think" you are improvising over. So the chord progression becomes more interesting. This gives you more ways to come up with new and different melodies over a pretty boring chord progression.

This song is in 6/8, So when the chord is Am think 3 beats of E7(G#Dim7, or Bb7) then 3 beats of Am.
Maybe record the progression with the added chords and try new improv. This should get you thinking new and different ideas.

[leegordo]

are you suggesting that i use chords to improvise against a chord progression?

The idea is to change what chords you "think" you are improvising over. So the chord progression becomes more interesting. This gives you more ways to come up with new and different melodies over a pretty boring chord progression.

This song is in 6/8, So when the chord is Am think 3 beats of E7(G#Dim7, or Bb7) then 3 beats of Am.
Maybe record the progression with the added chords and try new improv. This should get you thinking new and different ideas.
I would try to Arpeggiate in Quavers if the music is in 3/4time try to stick to the scales of the chords that the music is actually being played in and gradually vary the quavers for crotchets and/or some trills! etc there is no limit to what is possible in the art of ad-libbing!
leegordo

[Revenant]

You can't think in terms of modes in a tonal progression because the harmony moves. Also, how the heck are you supposed to come up with intelligent musical phrases if you have to think all the time?

A professional jazz musician thaught me this: Forget about the chords! find the key center, and LISTEN to the chords.

[nickpgarner]

when improvising over any given chord progression you HAVE to know key signature and harmonic progression, if you do not then you playing will sound disconnected to the harmony. the best way to remember a progression is by the roman numeral system. once you have worked this out then you have to target certain notes within each change. With blues especially it could be argued that the only really important part of say a 12 bar is the changes from the I, to the IV, to the V, try hitting the 3rd or 7th of each change, it will give the chord the most distcintive sound.

[Malcolm]

Improvising --- and how to do it could take us into next year ..... I've come to the conclusion, right or wrong, that melody must enter into the picture.

Chords and scale notes to be comfortable with each other need to share some of the same notes. That said I've launched on a path of study using:

Contemporary music theory by Mark Harrison level one and two.
Great theory books, but not much on building original melodies.

How to write songs on keyboards by Rikky Rooksby. Confirms what I said about chords and scales being comfortable with each other

The nearest thing to pointing me in a direction is Writing music for hit songs by Jai Josefs. It talks about using close intervals for one feeling and broad intervals for another feeling, etc. I'm still reading this one, and think it will get me closer to an understanding of how to come up with original melodies, than anything I've read so far. But, I have also come to the conclusion that I will not find a Rosetta Stone for my improvisation. So........ if it sounds good it is good.

I just noticed this was my 1,300 post. 13's have always been lucky for me, perhaps that understanding is just around the corner.

[JonR]

what is phrasing exactly?Basically, breaking your playing into groups of notes, leaving spaces. Just like when you're speaking or writing, using punctuation and breathing spaces.
Phrases can (and should) vary in length and timing too. They can be as short as 3 or 4 notes, or last over several bars. But the space in between is important.
Play as if you're giving a public speech. Think about what great speakers do - they use simple sound bites; they vary their volume; they use repetition; they leave meaningful spaces (to let a previous idea sink in, and to build suspense for the next one).
It won't matter how clever the ideas are, if your audience goes to sleep!
also when profesionals improvise do they always improvise over the chord in the bar with the intervals of that chord and its tensions and then when next bar comes they use the next chords tonesMostly, yes. The chord tones are your starting point, foundation notes. You can use any other note too (even notes outside the key), but the chord tones are the most important ones, that you begin on and return to.
(To compare with a speech, the chord sequence is like your topic: you can move away from it sometimes, but if you change the subject too much your audience will get confused. It will sound like you're rambling.)
i use the Am pentatonic through out the whole progression and just throw in some B and F notes to add colour but always resolve them to the pentatonic notes .it always sounds in tune but no matter what different techniques i apply the whole thing just sounds the same. i go all over the fret board trying to give it a different feel but i just dont know how to make it more interesting.Your strategy is fine. (Maybe not the best, but it should work fine.)
You may only need to think more about phrasing - and also rhythmic ideas. Start phrases in different places in the bar.
Vary the length of your notes, as well as the length of your phrases. Don't just play 8ths all the time. Use 16ths, quarter notes, half notes.
Vary the dynamics (loud vs soft)
Be more repetitive: If you find a phrase you like, repeat it. Play it 3 or 4 times, but change just one note.
if i have to only use the chord tones of the chord that begins on each bar and its tensions then i would have to memorise those tones and their position on the fret board and then makes sure i change in time and that just sounds so hardThat's really what you have to do!
For any chord sequence, you (ideally) need to know all the possible shapes for every chord, anywhere on the neck. You should be able to play all the chords in the sequence in any one position on the neck - eg the whole song around 5th fret, or around 10th fret, etc. All the chords are available everywhere, just as all the notes of the scale are available everywhere.

This song is a little unusual, because the chords contain notes from outside the basic A minor scale. Although A minor pent can work over the whole thing (the vocal melody is basically all A minor pent), a solo will sound more interesting if you reflect the chord tones - eg the F# on the D7 chord, or the G# on the E7.

This is why you need to know as many different shapes for each chord as you can - so you can find chord tones anywhere you are on the neck.
You don't even have to know the note names. And you don't need to know any scale patterns either! You can work totally from chord tones - any in-between notes can come from the other chords, esp the chords either side. (This is because the right scale is made up from the chord tones anyway. The chords are derived from the scale.)
This strategy is simple and it always works! Unlike beginning from scale patterns, where you have to learn how to apply them according to key, or according to the chord, and then how to find the chords tones in the pattern.
But then you do have to learn a few movable chord shapes...

Try starting a phrase on a chord tone on one chord, and ending it on a chord tone on the next chord - or the one after. The notes in between can be almost anything, but may be best to stick to A minor pent to begin with, because those are the most "inside" notes in this song (except on the E7 chord, where only E and D really fit).

Eg, here's a very simple line illustrating what I mean:
Am C D F
-------------|-------------|------------|----------
--5----5-6-8-|8-----8-10-8-|-7--------5-|6-5--------------------
-------------|-------------|------5-7---|----7-5-------
-------------|-------------|------------|----------
-------------|-------------|------------|----------
-------------|-------------|------------|----------
E E F G G G A G F# C D E F E D CIt may not be a very exciting phrase :rolleyes: but -
It hits chord tones on the beginning of each bar;
it uses a repeated rhythmic shape - 2 short 4-note phrases, in the same place in the bar ending with an extended 7-note one;
the final note of each phrase is a chord tone;
each phrase starts with a chord tone (the C in bar 3 is the 7th of the D);
the other notes in between are all from the A natural minor scale.

You could make this line more musical and interesting with some bending - eg bending up from E to F into bar 4, and back down to E - or changes in articulation. (Some notes legato, some staccato.) Or changing the timing (the above is written with the notes right on the beats - makes it a little dull).

In short, keep things simple to begin with. Really get to know the chords, and look (listen!) for the distinctive changes from chord to chord, and also which notes stay the same from chord to chord. You can play with these differences: sometimes holding one note that's shared between all the chords;other times focussing on the notes that change. (Notes that change can always be played as scale degree steps - known as "voice-leading".)
CHANGE SHARED NOTES DIFFERENT NOTES (voice-leading direction)

Am - C C, E A->G

C - D none (C if it's G->F# or A; C->D; E->D or F#;
played as D7)

D - F A (& C if it's F#->F; D->C;
played as D7)

C - E E C->B; G>G#

E - Am E B->C; G#->A

Am - E E C->B; A->G#

[GelbKreuz]

I have also struggled with this 'beast', peter. I can only add to what has been said already by stressing the 'sing it first out loud' approach. This approach, more than anything helped me.

Before that I started out memorizing the "safe notes" (in any given mode) on the neck for the given chord I was in. I went as far as memorizing the chord tones (I would outline the 7th chords in blues, etc.), memorizing the 3rds' locations as well, blah blah blah... But my phrasing was static and machine-like, though sometimes I would get "lucky." But once I forced myself to sing (out loud even, where I make Tom Waits sound like Andrea Bocelli) I improved greatly. Your brain will compute for you the correct tone, despite the "safe notes" and you will start seeing results. But even this technique has to be mastered, so don't worry if you come up with crap at first. I did it for the first time in front of people, and I felt like a big dork.;)

Listen to BB King, or Albert King. That's great phrasing.