genetics

[The Bash]

If you are ever getting cocky with your prowess at speed listen to this Steidl or Shawn Lane (Gilbert, Morse, Moore), then you will realize that your genetics probably don't put you in this category.

I found this and interesting statement since I have for many years pondered the impact of genetics reguarding speed. Its somthing that's never talked about (at least I've never seen mention of it outside of a breif Al Dimeola comment). We mat refer to musicians as natural players, improvisers, songwriters etc. But is there such a thing as natural speed. I believe there is. I belive there is a direct link between kinetic albilty and the gifted athelete and perhaps a silimar correlation exhist amoung musicians. I simply don't belive everyone has the genetic abilty to play like steve morse (in more ways the just picking ability, but since speed's ((more directly picking potential)) my question I'll focus only on that.
I'm not what you'd call a speed demon by any stretch of the imagination though I can play realitivly fast with the legatto stuff, picking is a diffrent matter. I can't say I'm obessed with it as in doing it 12 hours a day but I have worked hard fairly consistantly and have gotten faster but in no way blazing. However by picking has improved as far as control and little things such as inside/outside picking are pretty much equal and picking arppegios are geberally not a problem (just not blazing).
So I highly reccomend practicing technique (the benifits are great) but just don't expect to get fast (you'll get faster, sure) but keep your perspective (the idea is to get better, gain control, open the physical doorways for expression of the soul).
Not sure if was a question or just and expression of my own thought but all responces are greatly welcome as I'm highly intrested in others thoughts on the topic.
Ps. Sorry about the typing (I'm sure there's plenty of typos).

[szulc]

Not everyone can be a Frank Shorter or a Michael Jordan.
That was the point of my statement.

I think everyone gets depressed when they see some one like Michaelangelo play upside down and backwards cleanly, mind you, not that I find his style interesting but he IS faster than I will ever be (maybe capable of genetically). I feel like my ideas are pretty and interesting but in a head to head speed competition I would lose, now I am confident that I could MOVE (emotiionally) someone to cry or smile and that really is the point.
Isn't it?

I don't think the point is to be astounding.
Lets face it the average person is more likely to appreciate someone like Clapton, Beck or Gilmore (Billy Gibbons, Slash etc.....)
Aren't they?

Most people can't really tell the difference between what George Thoroughgood and Paul Gilbert are doing, anyway.

James

[The Bash]

I Agree with that.
Speed can be cool, however it takes more than that to make
music. Gilmour's a good example of your head to head point.
I love Gilmoure and I could probably beat him in a race, however
I can't touch him as a musician. I'd gladly trade what little speed I have for his sense of phrasing in a heartbeat. And, he's definatly one of those guys you know from the first note.
Wonder if he'd swap me a little of my genteic speed for a bucketful of his phrasing.

[szulc]

It is entirely possible that his phrasing is 'genetic' just like your speed.

[Blackbolt]

All talent is a mixture of things: environment, education (i.e. your teacher), practice and 'natural' talent (and probably some other stuff that I can't think of right now. If you can't get there by practice then it has to be because of one of the other things. It could be the teacher, but it's doubtful as they can only get you so far, the rest is down to practice. Environment I guess is stuff like what kind of music you listen to and things and so doesn't have much effect on speed, but has great effect on phrasing.
I imagine you can hypothesize like this for ages as well, but I reckon someone speed is purely physical and can always be attained by practice, the 'natural talent' (genetics) bit comes in how well they phrase and play at that speed.....maybe?

Did that make ANY sense?

[szulc]

Would you want to race Frank Shorter?
Or try to outjump Michael Jordan?
Try to dodge a kick or punch from Bruce Lee?

The chances are good that you could practice all day every day and never get close.

Some people are just born with more white muscle fiber and some ar not.
This is purely a matter of genetics.
Sure you can practice and be the best you can be, but when it comes to ultimate speed your age and your gentics probably play a large role.

[The Bash]

I totally agree. And yes I think Natural Phrasing is Genetic. I see some students who are naturally gifted kinetically (quick reactions, fingers flying with ease), however it doesn’t mean they play well or actually say anything. On the other hand I see some, who with a limited amount of technical precision (and in some cases knowledge), say tons with just a few notes. Grant it they all get better with practice.
I think genetics (or natural talent) can be divided up into endless categories: Speed, Phrasing, Song Writing, etc. and each category into endless and eventually meaningless subcategories. Ex. Speed: Morse is a gifted picker, Holdsworth is Mr. Natural left hand. (And yes theses people worked there but off to perfect theses skills)
I see natural talent as sort of a knife. Some of us get pen knifes some (the Mozarts of the world) get a ten ton pendulum. However it’s the everyday grind of sharpening theses skills that counts. A pen knife will still slice when sharp. A Pendulm on the other hand can eradicate large cities.
I think every skill we possess (not just musical) falls somewhere within that spectrum.
I truly belive I’m a pen knife Picker (at least as far as speed goes) but I work at it so at least it’ll be as sharp as it can.
I know within myself there’s skills that came naturally and skills that didn’t.
And the physiological aspects your referring to I agree with 100%. That’s something that’s talked about and accepted more or less as fact in the Classical Guitar world but I rarely (outside of Di meloa) ever see it mentioned anywhere else.

[EricV]

I don´t know about the "genetics" thing... it might be used as an easy excuse. Like "Hey, I will never be able to pick fast cuz of my genetics..."
I mean, I know from my own experience and that of others that, if you have any disadvantages limiting your playing ( small hands, bad coordination etc. ) it can be compensated by a bunch of hard work.
I see Steve Morse mentioned, and I know how much time he used to spend and still does spend in practising. I mean, he used every opportunity to practise, hours a day, still does today... he even practises when the drummer plays his drumsolo.
So I don´t know whether this wasn´t just a bunch of hard work. Same goes for other fast pickers like Petrucci and Gilbert. They all spent years to work on their technique.
When I was in my teens, I thought I´d never be able to pick fast. My synchronisation wasn´t good, and I actually thought something like "Hey these guys were born that way, they have a special talent".
Then I sat down and practised it for HOURS, I changed my left- and right hand technique so it was more efficient ( keyword: "lightness / relax" ) and what do you know, all of a sudden it worked. I started to gain speed, and that after I had been playing and working on this for a while already. Just by sitting down, focussing and doing it.
I have students who lack a feel of rhythm. They can´t play 8th-notes in time, they have to work on it with a metronome, while I do have others who do so from lesson 1 on... same I have seen regarding stretches ( I do have a student who has VERY small hands, but after a while he was able to play stuff like an Amajadd 9 bar chord in 5th position just as well as the others, just by practising it over and over ).
And about phrasing... I believe it depends on how much you play in a musical setting ( not just practising with a metronome, but playing out, with a band ie., gaining confidence so you become confident regarding WHAT you play, and can start putting life into it, starting to work on HOW you play it. )
I also believe the development of your phrasing depends on how much you HEAR music, listen to it. Again, I use my comparison of playing to learning a language... if you listen to a lot of people using the language, you´ll hear lots of little details you don´t get from learning the language froma text book.
One of my former teachers told me to listen to a lot of music and especially a lot of different instruments... voices, piano, trumpet, sax... my phrasing definitely was influenced by trying to emulate and simulate those instruments and their sounds.
So I am not sure how much genetics are a part of this, and how much hard work is. I believe that you can compensate most of the "genetic" parts, like bad sense of rhythm, small hands...
Because the players I consider great regarding their technique, tone and phrasing are the ones who worked on that for hours a day, for many years, or they played a huge amount of gigs...

Just my opinion, though
Warm regards
Eric

[Wizbit81]

Hi guys!
What we're talking about here is the good old nature/nurture debate, a favourite amongst psychologists, geneticists, developmentalists etc. I can share with you my limited understanding on the topic.
1. Current feeling about nature/nurture generally, (despite a lot of individual variance), is that skills are 65% environment and 35% natural. For instance, perhaps some players are born with larger cerebellums than others, granting a lot more fine motor control to a persons fingers therefore allowing them to play faster. But, it has been shown that musicians cerebellums can enlarge over a number of years with practice. So, although people can be born with a genetic advantage this doesn' t mean they are beyond what we can achieve. Also, people usually fail to take into account early exposure and natural traits when considering the role of the environment in development. In this case I can use an example of rhythm. Like Eric was saying, there are people who can't even tap eighth notes on a table in time, I know several of my friends are like this. A possible explanation for this is that they have simply never tried it before. As someone of a generally anxious disposition, I have tapped tables, fingers, toes etc. since I was about two years-old. My friend, who has no sense of time, has never done any such thing. Is it any wonder he can't play in time? My father is one such person, and with exposure to my music, over the years, has learned time ok. As regards people saying they don't have the genetic ability to play like someone like Steve Morse, I think that if they had played guitar every day for 12 hours since they were 2, they probably could. Remember, Morse practiced a ridiculous amount when he was younger, and claims to do things such as play while he drives his car with his feet!!! He may well have some form of genetic advantage over other players in a technical aspect, (larger cerebellum, high genetic ability to form neuronal connections, etc), but nothing that cannot be overcome by learning the right things. One last point, not all people have the same ability to learn things, some people develop techniques like mnemonics, story learning etc. naturally and therefore take less time to learn something than someone else. Also, how we learn is important, the old idea of doing things so slowly there is no possibility of mistake is dead right. Play a mistake twice and its hard to get rid of! So, if people learn with proper learning techniques, don't make mistakes, and put in a hell of a lot of time I think there is no reason why they can't play exactly how they'd like to, (it's what I tell myself every day when I can't play like Petrucci anyway) Hope this helped, feel free to cantact me with any questions,
Chris :p

[szulc]

you cannot change the ratio of white to red muscle fiber.

[The Bash]

Good Points, by all. And that’s the whole point. All opinions welcome, I have a curiosity as to how people’s minds work. I have a even deeper curiosity as to why people play/sound a certain way. Dedication/Physiological/Psychological/Theological/Metaphysical/Enviromental/Natural Ability and probably 100’s of others I can’t even think of. I think Genetics plays a role to some degree in all theses things. How much? Who knows I don’t. Whatever it is I’m it probably fluctuates from person to person.
And I don’t mean to understate dedication/hard work factor. That I believe is the most important factor of all. I can back up Eric’s statements, I don’t consider myself gifted by any stretch but I went further (for lack of a better word) than a lot of guys I knew who I considered far more gifted than myself. And I consider this work ethnic to be the Major Reason why Morse is Morse (how hard he works in unreal, and what he works: on stuff others would never even consider.)
Same goes for any other player: there a product of there work.
However, my superfluous (because this topic probably has no value outside my own curiosity) thoughts revolve around guys like say George Lynch for example. Now George is a great player, has great technique, and plays pretty darn fast, but not as fast as Malmsteen. Why? Grant it I’d rather listen to George Lynch (no offensive Yngwie), but why? It’s not that George hasn’t worked at it, and yes at least to me George has grow more and more technically capable through the years (the hard work thing again). But Yngwie’s still faster, but he’s probably no faster than he was 20 years ago. Why? Did he just stop and say “Ok that’s fast enough I’ll just rest here and see if they can catch me.” Or did he max out?
I have no answer, just a theory.
And why don’t they judge singers by how fast they can sing. Good Question James (I liked that one:) )
And I probably spelled that Swedish guys name wrong.

[EricV]

Hi,

well, about George Lynch... he was someone who impressed me cuz he never stopped developing. Did´cha know that he went to some classes at the GIT in the late 80s / early 90s.
I mean, he was a very high-rated and famous player back then, but he didn´t give a damn about it and went to that school and sat there among all the younger guys who had posters of him on their bedroom-wall, trying to learn something new and get inspired. Great attitude.
He never gave that much about techniques anyway. He was not as polished as some other players. His phrasing is very fluid, alive, hard to transcribe. He sometimes played unintented double-picking cuz his right hand was faster than the left.
But he didn´t care that much, and I like that approach. Great player.

Yngwie developed his technique to a point where it´s tough to play any faster. He didnt change that much about his music neither, seems to be content with it ( or maybe it´s because he wants to stick with the style that made him famous ), and therefore stays true to his style, doesn´t play a lot of different stuff. Maybe he does in his bedroom, who knows ?

Look at Paul Gilbert... he started out with all the neoclassical stuff... the Yngwie-stuff. But he developed and added more blues-stuff, hip notes etc. Made up his own unique style. That I do like a lot.
It is a choice... do you wanna get fast ? Then sit down and practise a few months / years.
Do you wanna develop after that ? Try to come up with new stuff you never palyed before. Listen to other music to get some new influences. Maintain your technique while "importing" different stuff into it. Try to not be bored.
Look at Steve Morse.. he started to work on his sweep-technique a while ago, and he even manages to use it in a cool sense at some rare occasions, while a few years ago he said he can´t do it at all. But he doesn´t stop developing and that, to me, is extremely inspiring...
Warm regards
Eric

[szulc]

I am not saying that I am too lazy to practice, I am saying I have spent many years practicing and I am not going to get much faster. Age is also a factor, I am 41. How Many 41 yer old boxers are there that still have speed? I believe that thinking is my strong point so I try to play smarter. Sure I f work at some little exercise incessantly I will get faster but that doesn't make pretty music, it becomes an esoteric exercise that makes your playing appealing only to other guitarists.
Speed is definately not what I like about Eric Johnson or Wes or George Lynch. I don't like singers based on how many notes they can sing in a second. You need to be fast enough to execute the music of your soul, to play what is in your head, not to make everyone in awe of your hermitage.

[EricV]

I didn´t say you were too lazy too practise. Didn´t say that about anyone here. :D

I believe it´s a big mistake to think of that kinda fast playing as something to impress other players, but that´s not the main intention. I know in my case it is not, and I happen to think it´s not the case with guys like Satriani, Morse etc. neither.

Frankly, I am sick of the old "Speed against feeling"-discussion that´s been going on for so long. It´s pointless anyway, but what bothers me most is that the guys ( and I´m not talking about anyone here ! ) that say "These guys are just playing fast, that´s brainless and lacks feeling" miss a point.
Have you ever spent a few weeks or months sitting there for hours with your guitar and a metronome, working on your speed, accuracy and dexterity ? Sitting there trying to get this cool melody or lick up to speed ?
For me, it was fun because I love the instrument, I love playing the guitar. If you listen to my music, you´ll hear more melodies than you´ll hear fast licks, but you´ll hear a fair amount of those too.
Cuz in my mind, I hear a mixture of nice melodies, countered / complicated / framed by some nice licks and runs. It´s a great dynamic tool to be able to play things at high speed, and it´s been a musical tool ever since classical music.
When I listen to Bach´s tocatta and fugues ( which were some of the most sophisticated and technically difficult pieces to play on the organ back then ) I never think "Dude, this guy lacked feeling, he should take it easy and stop trying to impress everyone"
hen I hear them, I hear music written by someone who loved music and loved to play, and dedicated himself to it enough to develop "chops"... which he used to create this music, adding fast runs as part of the composition.
I don´t think that ANY "shredder" spent years sitting there playing his fingers to the bone just to impress his friends or "get the girls". You just can´t do that, because it´s a big, time-consuming, difficult task that needs love and dedication to your instrument.
Those guys wanna be able to play fast cuz that´s the sound theyx like, that´s what they wanna use in their music. And because it is fun and an equal tool to many others.
Steve Morse once said that a lot of the younger guys use speed as a tool to get their agressions out, it´s a thing to do when you´re young.
Well, when you grow up you can still use it.
There´s a song by Vinnie Moore, called "Daydream". In that one, he plays a slow, melodic solo which gets faster after a while. All of a sudden he plays this amazing fast sequence down the neck. And at least I do hear a lot of emotion in that fast run.
Ever since I noticed that I knew that you can get emotion and feel across with a fast passage just as gopod as with one single, bent note.
Or listen to Joe Satriani´s "Always With Me, Always With You". A highly melodic song. One of the tunes that made me wanna play. And there´s a fast tapping passage in there, which blends perfectly with those pretty melodies and just fits in there.

I know that in the 80´s, there was a lot of competition going on,a nd there were a lot of records that seemed to be more about fast licks. ( Spell "Varney" )
But I still hear the player in those, and since I know a bit about how stuff at the Shrapnel label was handled, and how much all thse players were pushed to just record another version of "Rising Force", I know that this is not the fact to judge all the fas stuff by.
Ì´m getting longwinded here... I guess that´s because I just wanted to get that point across after hearing that kind of discussion going on for YEARS. This might not even have to do anything with the rest of the thread. ;)

I just wanted to say: Speed is a musical tool, always has been ( the thing about the fast singer... first of all, there are technical limits to that, second of all, have you ever listened to rap ? Or ever listened to that old bavarian art called "yodeling" ? There is your "how many notes a singer can sing"-thing´)
And I do not believe that ANYONE practises playing fast for years just to impress his friends. That´s not enough of a goal. It´s a dedication.
Just my opinion though
Eric

[The Bash]

I don’t think speed or lack of has anything to do with feeling. I think technique is the main thing. To me everything is a technique. There’s a technique to everything Gilmoure does, everything Beck does, even Neil Young has a technique. We usually reserve that term for the Vais, Morses, Petruccis of the world. Point is everything they do, or can’t do is a part of their palette. Having lots of colors doesn’t necessarily make one a great painter. Having an extensive vocabulary dosen’t make one a great writer: Melville’s Moby Dick and Hemingway’s For Whom the Bells Toll are both great books, though I often need a dictionary by my side to read Melville. Hemingway in contrast is very basic (small words, simple sentences).
I Love Petrucci (great songwriter/great guitarist) he does things that I’m in awe of, but my all time favorite Petrucci lick and maybe one of my all time favorite licks ever occurs about 2:20 into the Scenes from a Memory Overture (played over the One Last Time progression). I can just sit and listen to those 20 secs over and over.
I’ve see plenty of guys play fast without feeling. I’ve seen plenty of guys play slow without feeling. Feeling is what it is: Feeling. Speed is nothing more than speed. Those two can overlap, can become and extension of each other.
Sure Lynch worked constantly on his technique, I’m sure he became somewhat faster as a by product of that work but more importantly he got better.
I work on technique to get better, I’ve never (until about a month ago) focused on getting faster. Working on techniques lick picking etudes, or trills etc made me faster, but most importantly it made me feel more in control. Maybe that’s purely psychological, but I feel more confident when I work on those things. I also work on little things like seeing how many ways I can bend one note up a whole step, (kind of like Vai’s musical meditation.)

Bach’s Chaconne from Violin Partita No.2 is a moving work and maybe the most technically challenging thing for a Classical Guitarist to play, on the other hand Erik Satie’s Gymnopedies are equally as moving and easy enough I could actually pull them off technically speaking, about 12 years ago when I studied some Classical Guitar (though I never quite sounded like Parkening). The Chaconne, forget it that’s well beyond me.

I guess the point is when you learn a G minor scale, you get a G minor scale and that’s it.
If you practice speed, you get faster (if done correctly that is), nothing more.
It’s all in how you use theses things that matters.
I listen Malmsteen, I listen to Albert King.
I listen to James Labrie, I listen to Bob Dlyan.
I think there all great at what they do.