Sixteenths and triplets - on the beat only?

[Darkman]

I've been learning strict sixteenths and triplets to a metronome, and now I'm beginning to apply them in solos. Obviously some neo-classical runs sound great played tight to the beat, and don't make sense otherwise. While other fragment patterns could be more flexible?

My question is, do these fragment patterns (practiced to a metronome) only sound "right" when played in time to the tempo? As opposed to drifting over the beat.

If they need to be applied to the tempo strictly, then you gotta be pretty fast to play decent stuff at tempos of 130bpm and above right? You have to reach a high standard before you can even think about applying patterns in your solos.

Am I making sense here? :)

[jessmanca]

hmm interesting, you're talking about say, eighth note triplets starting on the "and" beat, so that it overlaps the next downbeat. I'm sure i've used them before while improvising without knowing it, but, how exactly would it sound? i'll have to play around with the idea, thanks :)

[Jed]

I'm not sure what you are asking.

But for example while triplets are normally constrained to the beat or the half-measure (first two beats or second two beats in 4/4), it's not uncommon in latin music to have 1/4 note triplets that span the mid-bar line (between beats 2 & 3) or an actual bar line (between beats 4 & 1). It's a very common sound in latin percussion.

More likely what you are noticing is how a soloist might play around with the meter by breaking away from strict subdivision of the beat. These events are difficult to represent in traditional notation and might use quintuplets, hept-tuplets or some other tuplet figures to approximate the rhythm. Often times these figures are intended to represent a meter-less passage in a solo.

cheers

[Darkman]

Hmm how can I explain this better.....

The points you've both made a relevant to what I'm talking about, but not specifically perhaps.

Let me put it really simplistically. Say you've learnt to play a quarter note pattern at 120bpm. That's your top speed. But you have a song running at 130bpm. What to do?

You could slow your pattern right down of course to half of 130, but that would sound ridiculous. Or you could play your pattern at 120bpm, even though the songs running faster. What you end up with is your pattern played evenly in it's own rhythmic tempo, but it drifts/lags over the songs tempo. See what I mean?

And my question is, would doing that sound "wrong" musically. Would the whole point of learning strictly to a metronome be lost in a way?

You couldn't do this with any form of arpeggio obviously, because an arpeggio pattern has to fit the chords beneath it very precisely (well you could if you added/subtracted notes to suit, but that's crazy talk haha). But perhaps with a scale run?

I don't know. I'm rambling now :)

ps- as far as notating is concerned, yes it would probably have to be meter-less, even though the player would be following his own strict tempo independant of the songs tempo

[jessmanca]

And my question is, would doing that sound "wrong" musically. Would the whole point of learning strictly to a metronome be lost in a way?

Yes. It'd sound... wrong. I don't usually say wrong, just different, but in this case it's definitely bad. If you've ever been to an amateur rehearsal where people are playing the right notes at the wrong speeds you'll know what I mean.


You couldn't do this with any form of arpeggio obviously, because an arpeggio pattern has to fit the chords beneath it very precisely (well you could if you added/subtracted notes to suit, but that's crazy talk haha). But perhaps with a scale run?

I don't know. I'm rambling now :)

ps- as far as notating is concerned, yes it would probably have to be meter-less, even though the player would be following his own strict tempo independant of the songs tempo

The scale and the arpeggio have to fit the chord, it depends on the progression I guess, but it would certainly change the aural characteristics of the scale, if certain parts of the scale were played over chords they normaly aren't. You just have to practice to the faster speed or get the rest of the track down to your speed.

One thing you could do is record yourself at the lower speed and then speed it up with some audio software..

[borge]

actually, it *can* sound great and much more interesting than the original pattern as long as you're in time.

eg:take a simple ascending diatonic pattern.

6 notes per beat, up 6 back 5 (123456, 234567, 345678)

which sounds very much like an exercise. lets say you can play it at 110bpm max.

now, say you're playing a song at 130bpm, which you can play 5 notes per beat max and you play the original pattern over it, it now becomes:

12345 62345 67345 67845 ect ect

so you're playing the same notes at around the same speed, both are in time, but they will sound VERY different.

i *think* this is called rhythmic displacement (and/or the hemiola effect, same thing?)

its very tricky to get the hang of but can make simple patterns sound very interesting.

petrucci and zappa (among many others) use this idea frequently.

[Darkman]

Interesting :)

I guess it depends how you apply it. Some will work and others won't.

I wouldn't resort to any tape speed stuff, I'd rather either play it for real or remain humble you know?

My further thoughts on this are : what singles out precise fragment patterns in time to a beat to sound so "good"? Silly as it sounds this is perhaps a small discovery for me, because I just assumed speed players could play fast (but evenly spaced notes) over any tempo and it could rip. But it seems (to be really effective) those patterns have to be played strictly to the tempo of the song i.e. 16 notes to 4 beats.

It's a suprisingly hard subject to describe.

Those ideas of rhythmic displacement are quite intriguing, but again, a very high standard has to be reached I think before attempting them at speed. And that's beyond me at the present time. Oh well :)

[JonR]

Rhythm is absolutely fundamental to music. Relating properly to the beat (pulse) is even more important - at least in rock, blues and jazz - than getting the right notes or chords.

"Relating properly" doesn't necessarily mean being right on the beat all the time. Just as singers can sing slightly late or early, to be expressive, so can soloists. But you must be aware at all times where the beat is, and where your notes are in relation to it.

In your example, if you have a 16th note phrase to play that you can manage at 120 bpm, but not at 130, there's three options:

1. practice until you can! :rolleyes:
2. don't play that phrase, play something different
3. play the phrase, but leave out a few notes, so that important ones do fall on the beats.
Eg, you might have 5 16ths, where the 1st and last are on a beat. If you can't get the other 3 in the space, use just 2 of them.
4. start the phrase early, so that the last note falls where it should. (Final notes usually matter more than starting ones.)

Generally, this matters because notes that fall on beats usually match chord tones. A solo phrase or lick will bridge chord tones. It may run up and down a scale, but it will be stepping between chord tones at important points; not necessarily beginning on one, but almost certainly ending on one.
If you end a solo phrase on a note that's not in the chord, it will sound bad!

IOW, you can mess around with timing quite a lot, but you need to be aware of "target" notes - where the phrase is going to end up.
That target note can even be delayed a little - as long as it doesn't then fall on the next chord, where it doesn't fit!

I wouldn't want to suggest that improvised phrases have to be mechanically metronomic! (Otherwise we might as well leave it to computers to play music...) But an awareness of time is crucial.
Delay or slow down phrases if you want - but don't do it simply because you can't play fast enough! If it's beyond your current chops, play something different, or adapt it to fit.
ALWAYS listen to how what you're playing fits with the backing. (Maybe a slowed down lick will work - but don't bank on it.)

TIP: a few notes played with perfect timing sounds much more professional and musical than a lot of notes with sloppy timing. Less is often more!