Need some help! Thrash Metal/Metalcore "Machine-Gun" Rhythms

[pfizer]

Hey guys, long time no post http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/smile.gif

I just have a question about something I've been hearing quite a bit in metal these days. It's a kind of rhytm that's used quite a bit these days, and I've come to call it the "machine-gun riff".

I've been trying to play stuff by Trivium like "Gunshot to The Head of Trepidation", "Suffocating Sight", and "Entrance Of The Conflagration" and I just can't figure out how to practice that ultra-fast, machine gun type riffing.

In the first part of this video, Mark Morton from Lamb of God shows how to play a riff with a nu-metal, bay-area thrash type style and a more contemporary style, which is what I'm talking about (00:20-01:31) . In the later parts, Willie Adler , also from Lamb Of God (02:55-3:11) and Matt Heafy & Corey Beaulieu from Trivium (03:43-04:12), among other guitarists, also demonstrate this technique:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lx7cLwvQ24Q

Gunshot To The Head of Trepidation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp3n6RGDCck
- The opening/verse riff that goes DAN-trrrd-DANAN-trrrd-DANAN-trrrd-DANAN-trrrrrrrrrrrrrdDANANtrrrd is what I've been trying to play for a while now and I just can't do it consistently. Furthermore, my technique completely changes when I attempt this. My shoulder tenses up and I just don't feel the control. Strict, consistent alternate picking is less of problem for me since I can basically "set" the speed I want my hands to do and start doing it.

Suffocating Sight
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WHEgRdPc3c
- This one is insane. The riff basically has a rhythm and lead part done at the same time, trrdtrrd-danananan-trrdtrrd-danananan. The rest of the song is similar, with variations on the friggin' machine gun riff. At 1:56, the guy does a more basic variation, the common trrd-trrd-trrd sound.

Other bands that use that sort of "trrd-trrd-trrd" are All That Remains and Killswitch Engage:

This Calling by All That Remains
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_MlC534sco
- The guy seems to be enjoying himself http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/smile.gif Anyways, really good cover and most of the song uses the machine gun style riff.

Daylight Dies by Killswitch Engage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbRgmUnMjfw
- The opening riff has a down-down-down-up-down-down-down-up technique which I've attempted before but my hand always wants to go back to alternate picking or pure downstrokes. The machine gun riff starts at 0:49. This is actually the first song I heard that had the machine gun riff in it.

Some more iconic metal songs that use this technique quite a bit are Pantera's "Hostile" & "Heresy", Metallica's "Disposable Heroes" and Slayer's "Angel Of Death" & "Raining Blood". It's quite different from standard 'shredding' which focuses more on fast, alternate picked notes. For instance, Paul Gilbert and Yngwie Malmsteen rarely, if ever, use this rhythmic style. The one Malmsteen song I know that uses this rhythm is the opening riff from "I'll See The Light Tonight". John Petrucci used quite a bit of this technique in Train Of Thought and some songs on Systematic Chaos, particularly in "Constant Motion".

Now, when I practice this rhythm, I use a different technique than when I do my standard alternate picking. My shoulder and forearm contribute to the wrist movement, and while I can achieve the machine-gun effect, it's very tiring and I don't feel any control or even any progress in my skill (I know, it's supposed to come with time but I'm not even getting used to it; like every time I try to do it, I'm like a beginner...). Is this the right thing to do? One thing I've noticed about a lot of the guys in the video is that their technique remains pretty much constant and they are able to switch seamlessly between playing alternate-picked lead lines and fast rhythms.

For some actual training material, I've been looking at some stuff from Troy Stetina, namely his books Thrash Guitar Method and Metal Rhythm. I'm a bit intimidated since some people say the exercises can be scary and downright tough at times. Some instructional vids I saw are from Theodore Ziras who has a DVD called The Complete Metal Rhythm Guitarist (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA_KyhcUF14) and Lick Library's Metal Edge Series: Metal Rhythm, taught by Andy James (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd_NRWwE6v8&feature=related).

Whew, that was a long post! I'd really like your thoughts, opinions, advice, etc. guys :D They really help...

[Aresius]

The cure for this problem is again the good ole practice. I think that your problem comes from the lack of control of your right hand technique. The reason why those tough guy's playing look so seamless is because they have developed their technique in a way that allows them to execute everything in a same way without changing or altering their technique. I recommend you to sit down and analyze your right hand when you're playing. Practice that wrist motion 'cause it's the healthiest way. If you watch all those guys picking hands, only their wrist moves when they're doing those fast rhythms(except Jeff Hannemann, but he's not really that accurate and clean). And in my opinion, your right hand and pick angle shouldn't change at all, no matter what you're playing. Experiment with them when you're looking for a different tone for your picking but they have nothing to do with the technique itself because it is possible to play really fast picking even with your pick angle relatively flat. It's just a matter of practice. And do not try to dig holes with the pick, try to use only the tip. Using too much of the pick or too much force will tire you out and make your playing sound jerky.

About those songs: Gunshot to the Head... isn't really that difficult. The main riff is just 16th notes with quarter note accents in between. Figure out the rhythms slowly without a metronome at first. When you think you've got them down, then bring in the metronome and start slowly. And keep an eye out for your technique all the time and make sure you are doing everything correctly.

[Locrian]

Practice that wrist motion 'cause it's the healthiest way. If you watch all those guys picking hands, only their wrist moves when they're doing those fast rhythms
This is completely correct, I just thaught I'd add that there is a little bit of sympathy movement in their forearms. So you just have to make sure all the movement comes from your wrist but it doesn't matter if that makes your arm move a bit.

[pfizer]

Hey guys, thanks for the responses.

I will try to analyze my technique the next time I practice. I'm studying for board exams this summer and guitar playing is taking a back seat to that :p

A quick question though; I know that to get the basic machine gun type sound, there must be a sort of triplet feel. What I want to know is the way to play it:

--0-0-0---0-0-0---0-0-0---
^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^

This technique is strict alternate
picking and I thought it was the
only way to play it.

What I just realized was that this machine-gun rhythm is really an off-shoot, a modification if you will, of James Hetfield's all-downpicking style. When I took a closer look, I saw some guys playing it this way:


--0-0-0---0-0-0---0-0-0---0-0-0
^ v ^ ^ v ^ ^ v ^ ^ v ^

In this version, I start on a down-
stroke after every 3rd note. I accidentally discovered this while trying to play "Master Of Puppets" and I realized that whenever I would move the pick upwards, I'd still hit the string occasionally, even though my intention was to play everything using only downstrokes.

I hope my explanantion was clear enough guys :) Also, I'd still like your opinions on the instructional materials I've mentioned. Thanks!

[Heyjoe87]

what he said LOL DUDUDU DUDDU DUDDU w/ pauses in between. Now...go blow some heads off :D

[Death (Chuck)]

Are we talking about the gallop riff?
I wasnt watching all the vids, but it should be the gallop, right?

The best song to learn this is Battery - Metallica.
So basic , so simple , so good

[Death (Chuck)]

I am just listening to Davidian (Machine Head)
Wow the outroriff really rocks... I almost wish to have long hair again :D
A good and very easy exercise also !!!
I recommend it highly.