OCD while learning arpeggio inversions

[shredlogic]

Hello everyone,

When I learn an arpeggio I try to learn it in as many forms as I think will allow me to play it at will, while I'm in any scale pattern or position. So pretty much I end up learning the arpeggios in every possible inversion, generally a bunch of two-octave ones and a couple of ones that stretch the whole neck for those times you really want to tear it up.

But when I learn things, I feel like I get obsessive-compulsive, mostly regarding how many "patterns" to learn, and how many ways to play those patterns. For example, sometimes a slightly different way of playing an arpeggio can make it sound a lot more amazing, like tapping the highest note as opposed to sliding to it, or even little slides in the middle octaves can change the sound. And then I start wanting to practice every variation I like, because I'll think of one in the middle of improvising and then I don't execute it cleanly because I haven't practiced it.

I just want to hear some input about this, whether other people experience the same "obsession", and how they decide when to move on. There are so many arpeggios out there, and so many ways of applying them, you could be learning things forever.

I also experience this with scales and ways of playing them. For example, you can dream up any sequence (descending quadruplets, skipping thirds, etc) and then learn it alternate picking, legato, economy etc. And I feel like every one of them sounds great and then I go crazy haha

Thanks,
Frank

[Teletubby]

...


wow...


your dedicated man.

I am trying to familiarize myself with arpeggios right now too...but im not nearly as far as you are haha.

[shredlogic]

...


wow...


your dedicated man.

I am trying to familiarize myself with arpeggios right now too...but im not nearly as far as you are haha.



Haha I just love playing guitar more than anything. I just got out of college so I don't have as much time anymore. I can't sit in a dorm for 8 hours practicing so I have to really have to make use of the 2 hours or so that I get.

I also forgot to mention broken arpeggios and sequences, so much fun haha

[jade_bodhi]

I use a lot of arpeggios in my playing because my lead chops are not great. The arpeggios sometimes can fill a lead in.

As far as learning all the possible inversions and fingerings, I don't bother to learn any that I won't conceivably use regularly in my songplaying. I don't learn things that I can't apply on a regular basis. I don't see the point of that kind of abstract learning. This attitude vastly cuts down on the number of different arpeggios I need to master.

Hope that helped.

JB

[shredlogic]

I use a lot of arpeggios in my playing because my lead chops are not great. The arpeggios sometimes can fill a lead in.

As far as learning all the possible inversions and fingerings, I don't bother to learn any that I won't conceivably use regularly in my songplaying. I don't learn things that I can't apply on a regular basis. I don't see the point of that kind of abstract learning. This attitude vastly cuts down on the number of different arpeggios I need to master.

Hope that helped.

JB

Thanks for the input. That's the thing, I wouldn't learn it if I thought it was useless. Many times I'll improvise in a certain position using one of the scale patterns I know, and in the middle/after the lick I improvised I'll want to have an arpeggio as part of it, and then I'll realize I don't know how to play the arpeggio around the position. So I thought maybe people memorize a lot of them. Or perhaps they are just thinking ahead more in their solo, preparing to get to the position at which they know the arpeggio shape?

The thing about bending and slides within the arpeggios is more of just obsessive than useful probably haha Although sometimes I will sweep all the notes and think it sounds just ok, and then I'll learn a fingering that requires some slides and all of a sudden the arpeggio comes to life.

[Jed]

As far as learning all the possible inversions and fingerings, I don't bother to learn any that I won't conceivably use regularly in my songplaying. I don't learn things that I can't apply on a regular basis. I don't see the point of that kind of abstract learning. This attitude vastly cuts down on the number of different arpeggios I need to master.

Jade's logic (while perfectly reasonable) is the exact opposite to mine. I assume that all the "easily picked fruit" has already be taken by the thousands that went before me. So I concentrate on studying these things more deeply than most people consider prudent. My hope is that by searching into every possible nook and cranny, that I will gain some insight that most of those who take a more casual approach miss.

My approach has OCD and impracticability written all over it, and yet my progress accelerates each day. For example I spent a year working on arpeggios, at first the focus was 7th chord arps. But within a few months I switched over to the more challenging (at the time) triad arps. I learned the (nine or so 2-octave) forms within a couple of weeks but spent a full year working on triad arps in every variation I could think off in order to learn to think of any chord from bottom to top, top to bottom, inside-out, outside-in and in every conceivable location and approach on the freeboard.

After a year of that, even I started to think it was time to move on but I felt there was still much to learn about triads and arps. So I started to work on converting those triad arps into all the various chords that they were parts of. This of course gave me a concrete and musical way to see how an Amin triad for example relates to not just an Amin7 chord, but also Cmaj, Gsus4, Fmaj7, F#min7b5, D7, Dmin7, Bmin7 (b9), Bbmaj7, etc, etc.

I used those lowly triad arps to develop new (to me) triad voicings, an expanded understanding of scale patterns, chord substitutions, 7th chord voicings, freeboard awareness, ear training, etc, etc.

I still use triad arps and voicings every single day to help me gain a facility with each of the 12-13 keys, every diatonic and borrowed chord for each of the keys and every mode of those keys. It's as if by looking "too deeply" I've started to see how it all connects, not just in theoretical terms but in actual practical application.

As long as you are happy with your progress there no reason not to keep rummaging around with triads and arps. When you start to feel that you've learned everything that is possible . . then you can move on. But why change your approach if it's working? I don't think there is any such thing as "one-size-fits-all" when it comes to learning strategies.

cheers,

[shredlogic]

Jade's logic (while perfectly reasonable) is the exact opposite to mine. I assume that all the "easily picked fruit" has already be taken by the thousands that went before me. So I concentrate on studying these things more deeply than most people consider prudent. My hope is that by searching into every possible nook and cranny, that I will gain some insight that most of those who take a more casual approach miss.

My approach has OCD and impracticability written all over it, and yet my progress accelerates each day. For example I spent a year working on arpeggios, at first the focus was 7th chord arps. But within a few months I switched over to the more challenging (at the time) triad arps. I learned the (nine or so 2-octave) forms within a couple of weeks but spent a full year working on triad arps in every variation I could think off in order to learn to think of any chord from bottom to top, top to bottom, inside-out, outside-in and in every conceivable location and approach on the freeboard.

After a year of that, even I started to think it was time to move on but I felt there was still much to learn about triads and arps. So I started to work on converting those triad arps into all the various chords that they were parts of. This of course gave me a concrete and musical way to see how an Amin triad for example relates to not just an Amin7 chord, but also Cmaj, Gsus4, Fmaj7, F#min7b5, D7, Dmin7, Bmin7 (b9), Bbmaj7, etc, etc.

I used those lowly triad arps to develop new (to me) triad voicings, an expanded understanding of scale patterns, chord substitutions, 7th chord voicings, freeboard awareness, ear training, etc, etc.

I still use triad arps and voicings every single day to help me gain a facility with each of the 12-13 keys, every diatonic and borrowed chord for each of the keys and every mode of those keys. It's as if by looking "too deeply" I've started to see how it all connects, not just in theoretical terms but in actual practical application.

As long as you are happy with your progress there no reason not to keep rummaging around with triads and arps. When you start to feel that you've learned everything that is possible . . then you can move on. But why change your approach if it's working? I don't think there is any such thing as "one-size-fits-all" when it comes to learning strategies.

cheers,

I too have the feeling that the "easily picked fruit" have been taken by everyone. For example, I play a lot of heavy metal, and I think I have heard the same fingering for the 1st inversion minor triad countless times, so I try to learn other fingerings so that the top hammer-on pull-off notes are not the same as everyone elses'.

I actually started with the triads and add9's and 7th arpeggios, but only learned a few fingerings for each, which didn't really help me when my desire was to randomly execute an arpeggio I am "feeling" at that moment. I also agree that by looking "too deeply" I have understood music theory and the fretboard much more, it is just much more time consuming. So I sit there learning all of this stuff, but wanting to experiment with sounds I haven't mastered yet (the suspendeds, extended dominant chords, etc etc). So that becomes the debate I end up having - whether to learn many things at the same time, or to finish one thing in detail and THEN move on. In the end I usually move on to something new, but with this fight in my head of "I probably don't know this as well as I could, but it's allright for now".

Thanks for the reply

[Jed]

I actually started with the triads and add9's and 7th arpeggios, but only learned a few fingerings for each, which didn't really help me when my desire was to randomly execute an arpeggio I am "feeling" at that moment. I also agree that by looking "too deeply" I have understood music theory and the fretboard much more, it is just much more time consuming. So I sit there learning all of this stuff, but wanting to experiment with sounds I haven't mastered yet (the suspendeds, extended dominant chords, etc etc). So that becomes the debate I end up having - whether to learn many things at the same time, or to finish one thing in detail and THEN move on. In the end I usually move on to something new, but with this fight in my head of "I probably don't know this as well as I could, but it's allright for now".

"When is enough enough" really depends on your individual learning style, short and long-term goals. In my case the goal is to be able to see multiple / alternative fingerings quickly enough to assess the variations in sound and phrasing concerns so that I can pick not just the correct notes but my preferred phrasing option in real time / at tempo. Note that I'm old enough that I have no career pressures that interfere with this type of "over-learning" approach. If I was younger and a working musician then I might not take the time and effort to look this deeply. But since I am currently between serious musical commitments I can afford to explore these issues in depth and at my leisure.

The irony is that when I was an active working musician, I could not take the time to explore these issues due to work / performance / life-style constraints. Now that I worry less about performing and no longer feed my family via music, I am finally reaching (and in many ways surpassing) the performance goals that I have sought for so many years.

These days I think in terms of efficiency and efficacy relative to how much time I put into working on the bands material. But my own personal exploration of music takes a more strategic / in-depth / leisurely approach.

At the end of the day, these are really questions that you must answer for yourself. Hearing the thoughts of others may provide some sense of range or behavior but it never really takes into account how effective or how pertinent those other ideas might be relative to your situation.

I'm in the process of formalizing a new practice program. Once I've got it all worked-out I'll submit it for you to see as one "way-over-the-top" example of an "over-learning" strategy.

cheers,

[Revenant]

The key is to make the arpeggios sound like music and not exercises.
Far too many of those "shredders" just fly mindlessly up and down the neck with no aim for creative melodic applications at all. But if that's the way one wants to go I'm not saying its wrong or anything, just suggesting that arpeggios CAN be used as melodic devices and not only as show off tricks.
Learning the notes on the neck will unlock EVERY arpeggio for you as long as you know which notes they contain. Think about that, then you don't have to learn "patterns" but they will reveal themselves to you as you spot the notes in the chord you are playing over.
After you've mastered tonic root arpeggios, you can work on substitutions.
So, you never quite get finished with the subject of arpeggios if you have the mentality that the sky is the limit!

[shredlogic]

The key is to make the arpeggios sound like music and not exercises.
Far too many of those "shredders" just fly mindlessly up and down the neck with no aim for creative melodic applications at all. But if that's the way one wants to go I'm not saying its wrong or anything, just suggesting that arpeggios CAN be used as melodic devices and not only as show off tricks.
Learning the notes on the neck will unlock EVERY arpeggio for you as long as you know which notes they contain. Think about that, then you don't have to learn "patterns" but they will reveal themselves to you as you spot the notes in the chord you are playing over.
After you've mastered tonic root arpeggios, you can work on substitutions.
So, you never quite get finished with the subject of arpeggios if you have the mentality that the sky is the limit!

I totally agree about the overuse of arpeggios by people who don't understand (or don't care to explore) the fact that when you mix around the notes you open up a lot more doors.

However, in response to your idea of learning the notes on the fretboard, I do know where everything is (and the notes of many substitution arpeggios), but I was mentioning how if I haven't learned the pattern yet I can spot the notes and still screw up the arpeggio because I haven't got the "muscle memory" in my fingers to execute it. It's kind of like when you learn alternate picking and think you have it mastered, and then you still come across new scale patterns that can confuse your fingers.