Gear for technique

[Imyan]

I have been using 1.5mm of Dunlop Gator Grip series picks. I used them for like more than 6 years.

http://www.jimdunlop.com/index.php?page=products/pip&id=20&pmh=products/picks



I'm very much into shred. So I was wondering what kind of picks would help me improve my techiniques. I posted a thread some time back and a lot of you all suggested the Dunlop Nylon Jazz III picks with the sharp tip.

http://www.jimdunlop.com/index.php?page=products/pip&id=3&pmh=products/picks

This pick brought a lot of improvments to my picking. I felt a sharper contact and was more in control. The pick is smaller then the previous pick I was using so I had a more controlled grip. I also found out that John Petrucci uses the same kind of picks. I have been using the Jazz III pick for like 10 months now and I like them a lot.


Now, a few days back found the Dunlop Speedpick. The tip is twisted.

http://www.jimdunlop.com/index.php?page=products/pip&id=40&pmh=products/picks

I bought an H10 pick, the smaller one, the one in the botom left coner. I tried this pick and found it much smaller than the Jazz III picks. I felt that it was a btit too small and I wonder whether they have the same size as the Jazz III picks.

The twited tip gave a very precise and a very sharp contact. I think I like it but I'm not sure and I can't make up my mind to whether I should start using these Speedpicks, or whether I should just keep using the Jazz III picks.

Can anyone please tell me your thoughts about it. And does anyone know a pro shred guitarist who uses these Speedpicks?

Thanks

[Aresius]

The thing is just down to whatever you fancy the most. That pick isn't going to make you play any better, but if you feel like it, just go for it.

[Imyan]

Thanks Aresius,

You are right. I should go for what I feel. But I like both. and I haven't heard any of the pros using the Speedpick, and maybe that's what I need to know to decide.

I'm thinking is it really necessary to have a pick with a twisted tip when all of the shredders just use normal shaped picks?

[Blutwulf]

Guitar history is filled with anecdotal tales of guitarists and their picks. From shirt buttons to flattened pennies, they have used the gamut. A lot of times, it starts as a neccessity - broke gypsy with a shirt button, that sort of thing. Over time, the guitarist simply favors it. Sometimes, it starts as an affectation - a young guitarist chooses a cool pick and then over time sticks with it. Overall, it doesn't matter.

Alex lifeson is allergic to plastic/latex, though, so he uses odd picks. But I think he is protesting the ban on genuine tortoise shell. Perhaps I am just cynical.

Personally, I use whatever is at hand, as long as it is not too flimsy.

[JazzMick]

agreed with blutwulf.

If you do some research on the topic (should you feel the need) you will find all kinds of guitar players using all kinds of picks. No particular brand or type will make you faster, thats all up to you.

I would encourage experimentation though. After many years of playing, I'm still trying new kinds of picks and using them in different ways to improve my tone. Thats all they do though, Im yet to find one which makes me faster.

If you find a magical light speed pick, be sure to let us know;)

[Crossroads]

Well pick technology is not exactly rocket science lol. On the other hand, I think Imyan is talking from the narrower and quite specific perspective of ultra-fast picking, where the type of pick is important. For more general playing you could use almost anything (inc. fingers and thumbs), but if you want to play like say Paul Gilbert (he's my usual example), then you are going to find 99.9% of picks are less than ideal.

Of course we've had several thread about this before, and almost everyone recommends Jazz-III. But personally I find Jazz-III is too small and too thick - awkward to hold, too rigid, and sounds dull. Even the pointed tip is slightly too sharp. I have used Jazz-III in the past, & they are OK, but they are my third choice.

So talking specifically about really fast alternate picking, after trying many different types, my first choice (which I've used continuously for the past 3 years) are the black Dunlop USA 1.0mm nylon picks. These are rigid enough for very fast picking (only very slightly flexible), they have a grip area at the top (so they don't slip easily), and they are big enough to grip easily, eg big enough to use a Paul Gilbert type grip with a twisted playing angle. The tip is a little too rounded, but that's easily fixed by sharpening the tip slightly on a piece of fine glass-paper (takes about 20 sec., easy). Finally, thinner picks like this seem to give a clearer brighter more dynamic sound (compared to thicker picks like Jazz-III).

I also have some rare Japanese carbon fibre things which are the same size & thickness as the 1.0mm Nylon, but completely rigid like Jazz-III. These are a good alternative to the 1.0-nylon, but the carbon fibre tip wears out in about 8 hours!

Of course, the pick isn't the only problem when trying to pick fast lol!

It’s all personal choice of course, so just 2:cent’s on that lot. :)

Ian.

[Imyan]

Crossroad's got my point. I am very specific with the kind of pick I use because I want to be a shredder, and the kind of pick is very important when you want to do your picking with great precision and accuracy.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. I think I have decided to stick with my current Jazz III picks. For me I don’t have a problem gripping it and its small size doesn’t bother me. The rigidness feels good for me.

But after I played with the Speedpick and compared the sound, I found that the Jazz III picks had a more dull sound than the Speedpicks. But I think I'll worry about sound and tone a bit later.




Thanks again everyone... but do tell me more about your experiences with choosing a good pick for shredding.

[Aresius]

Crossroad's got my point. I am very specific with the kind of pick I use because I want to be a shredder, and the kind of pick is very important when you want to do your picking with great precision and accuracy.

Sorry if I sound like an ******* but in my opinion, gear has nothing to do with your actual playing technique. If it does, you're cheating yourself. If you have good quality guitar, amp and somewhat stiff pick, you should be able to play anything. Think about this: there are hundreds of mighty fine players out there who play with very different equipment each. Fine-tuning your technique with your gear comes to play only when talking about extremities, like shredding at ultimate speeds like 16th notes @270bpm (I'm (notes@270bpm (I'm) a shred fan but I think that's pretty ridiculous, I don't really any sense in that kind of thing). If your pick doesn't match your tonal ideas, then change it. In other cases it's not really necessary.

[Imyan]

You dont sound like an *******, I actually understand now. You are absolutely right. There are so many great guitarists out there with so many different kinds of equipment.

And you are right, even I dont like when guitarists are all speed and no melody.

You brought a very good point to this thread. If your pick doesn't match your tonal ideas, then change it. In other cases it's not really necessary. I think this is something very important that I have not thought about.

Thanks.

[Crossroads]

Yep, it's certainly true that fancy guitars and fancy amps are irrelevant compared to putting in the practice time and the dedicated work needed to play well ... it's the time & effort that counts, not the guitar or other gear.

Sad fact is - for many people it's much easier to spend money buying a new guitar or amp. So buying new gear often becomes an excuse to avoid facing the real problem. Forums like Harmony Central are crammed full of posts like that, arguing about who has the best or most expensive guitar. But the real problem is the need for serious dedicated practice., and you just can't "buy" that!

Ian.

[Aresius]

You brought a very good point to this thread. I think this is something very important that I have not thought about.

Great that you got my point ^^. When talking about guitar picks, I recommend thinking what kind of pick attack you like. When using sharp picks, the attack sound is more sharper and snappier than with blunt ended picks which are smoother and warmer. I've been trying to get rid of pick attack and at the same time have precise and clear attack. My guitar teacher has somehow managed to achieve it through practising but I've never figured out the proper way to do it. Check out Matias Kupiainen in YouTube if you're interested.

[Babsi]

Is it just me or has iBM approved gear-related threads?
Well, to stay at the topic, I personally prefer Jim Dunlop Tortex picks (the purple ones... about 1.1mm thick) and their little purple Jazz picks. I don't know if it is just me but I tend to reach greater speeds when I use Jazz picks instead of regulars.

[Crossroads]

I don't think picks really count as "gear". Though guitars certainly do, which is why I can't comment on the other thread :) .

Ian.

[ChrisJ]

I remember having to break a LP and using the broken pieces as picks when I was 12 and broke.

Another observation about picks: My mother still finds them in the washing machine, even though I moved out 20 years ago.

I learned from recording that you have to change picks for certain sounds. Like when playing an acoustic, one of the thin floppy ones gives more of a shimmer. When I play an electric, I hit it hard so I use a 1.5 mm one.

-CJ

[Crossroads]

Yes, for such a small cheap insignificant looking thing, the pick is actually quite important. That's why I've ended up using just one favourite type of pick and nothing else ... I never use any other type unless it's unavoidable (& even then I might choose to play without a pick instead).

Rigid picks are necessary for really fast picking (you can't do it so well with thinner more flexible picks). But plastic picks like the Jazz-III are rigid because they are thick, and that does give a slightly more dead & dulled sound. On the other hand, with electric (as opposed to acoustic), most issues of sound & tone can be dialled in/out with the amp anyway (unless you're using a vintage valve amp with just minimal tone controls).

But the pick is really an extension or alternative for using your fingertips & fingernails, so the feel of the pick against the stings is important, as is the feel of the pick in terms of grip - it has to feel right, as if it's a natural part of your hand. In which respect - some very shiny or ultra smooth picks seem to slip slightly against the strings, whereas others such as the 1.0mm Nylon have a slight friction or resistance against the string.

I don't want to make a big deal of discussing different picks, because after all, in truth, you can play with any type of pick, and of course you can do as I did & play for many years without a pick at all. But picks only cost a few pence (cents) so it should be cheap & easy for any of us to experiment with finding our favourite pick.

Just 2:cents, of course. :)

ps:- by the way, Chris - I'm still greatly enjoying your book (& using it daily), though I have scribbled all over it in pencil now lol! ... but hey, that just shows it's a real "working" book that's genuinely paying it's way. :)

Ian.

[ChrisJ]

Hi Ian,
Thanks about the book. Glad you like it and that it is working for you. Is there anything in the book that you really liked? How about anything confusing?

I'm working on a new one now and looking for ideas.

-Chris

[Crossroads]

Give me a few days to think more carefully about what I really liked most vs. what I liked least, otherwise any quick reply here would probably be too superficial. But, right off the top of my head ......

I do find the presentation of the chord diagrams extremely useful, ie with their inclusion of scale steps (root, 3rd, 5th, b7 etc.), I use those all the time, and they also helped a lot when trying to explain chords to some students (free students!), ie explaining chord construction not just in terms of scale steps but also in terms of interval shapes on the fretboard, and how we go from one chord to the next by altering certain intervals on the fretboard.

I think I'd like more discussion on arpeggios, and clearer/bigger fretboard diagrams for arpeggio patterns. Eg; - I use Guthrie Govan's first book for arp patterns, simply because his diagrams are so clear and set out on two adjacent facing pages. But one thing that seems lacking in both books, is any clear patterns for the Melodic Minor arps (minMaj7)...I ended up writing out my own diagrams for those (inc. the 9th degree).

Several times here I've mentioned larger clear fretboard diagrams (eg Govan's arpeggio patterns and scale patterns, which he has on double facing pages, p80-81 for the arps, and p84-85 for the scales). The reason size and clarity is important is that I normally use the book open on a music stand whilst playing & following a DVD at same time (eg Scott Henderson), so the book has to be at a distance (well away from being knocked by the guitar headstock) ... at that distance you do need big clear diagrams.

If it was my book, I'd also include some clear diagrams specifically for intervals. I have a very old book called Teach Yourself Rock Theory (Amsco. Music Publ., 1978), which has a good chapter on intervals with helpful diagrams. As I say ... the point for me is to relate the intervals to chord shapes and arpeggio patterns on the fretboard., ie so that I understand the construction of different chords and arps in terms of interval shapes between successive notes.

Originally I bought your book intending to make much more use of all your stuff on improvising with different scales over different chords. However, the stuff in the book is almost identical to all the stuff presented on Scott Henderson's DVD (fantastic DVD, and worth ten times the asking price imho), so I've spent more time learning that from the DVD where I can see & hear what he's doing & where I can transcribe & then practice his examples. But the stuff in your book is still great as a printed reference matching all the stuff on Henderson’s DVD.

One thing I found quite hard getting to grips with, was/is use of the melodic minor scale when improvising over different chord types. Again I was following Henderson's DVD, but using your book for the scale diagrams (p168). Somehow those diagrams just aren't big enough or clear enough for me (it’s partly just a matter of page layout and diagram size), however, Govan doesn't have any diagrams for melodic minor at all. In an attempt to get a better grip on melodic minor, I also bought Don Mock's book Melodic Minor Revealed, but I just found his diagrams & his approach very confusing (despite the very helpful inc. of his demo CD).

The reason for wanting to get into scales like melodic minor and half-whole diminished, was of course to develop a playing style more like Alan Holdsworth ... Scott Henderson's DVD is the nearest I can find to that.

On this forum many people ask about ways to learn the notes on the fretboard, and they say it takes a lifetime. I once tried to tell people it was actually quite quick and easy to do that, but they didn’t believe me lol. However, it is very useful to name/identify any note on the fretboard quickly & easily, and there are two great ways I’ve found to learn that.

The first way is simply by playing octaves rising up the neck,. Eg pick any note, say the note F at 1st fret low E-string. Now go to the next F one octave higher (3rd fret D string), then the next F at 2 octaves (1st fret top-E string), the next F (6th fret B string), & next F 8th fret A string, etc etc. That will give you all the F notes anywhere on the fretboard. So what? Well, if you look at the geometric pattern created by going up like that in octaves, you see it is a clear repeating zig-zag up the fretboard. And of course it’s exactly the same zig-zag pattern for any note. Eg start on say G at 3rd fret low-E, and go up in octaves using the same zig-zag pattern...now you’ve found all the G notes anywhere on the fretboard.

If you practice that octave method for just a short while (say 10min), then you can identify any note anywhere of the fretboard pretty quickly. If guys say they want absolutely instant identification, then just practice that octave method a bit more. The method is explained in Barrett Tagliarino’s book “ Chord Tone Soloing”, see his diagrams on p28 (very useful little book, inc a CD)

The other aid I use to learning/teaching the fretboard, is a typical classical method of just taking a chunk of the fretboard, eg say 5th position (ie 5th to 7th fret range), and learning the main notes going from high strings to low. So for example - you’d learn A, B, C on the top E-string (ie frets 5, 7 & 8), then E, F & G on the B string (frets 5, 6 & 8), then C & D on the G string (ie frets 5 and 7), and so on across the fretboard to A, B, C on the low E-string. That method is given for example in diagram form in David Oakes book “ Music Reading for Guitar “ (see page 42). If you just repeat that exercise a few times then in 5 mins you’ll easily learn a major chunk right in the middle of the fretboard. And you might also notice that if you add the note B one fret below C (on the G string), then you in fact have pattern-5 of the Major scale in C.

So...if it were my book, I’d probably include those methods for learning the fretboard.

OK, over the next few day's I'll try to have a more critical & focused look, and perhaps have something more constructive to say. :)

Ian.

[ChrisJ]

All good points Ian,
I never thought about including more arps from melodic minor. Also the diagrams could be bigger.

It is no coincidence that Scott and I approach things the same, he was my teacher 20 years ago. I also started working at MI around the same time Barrett.

Thanks for the ideas.

-CJ

[Crossroads]

It is no coincidence that Scott and I approach things the same, he was my teacher 20 years ago.
Yes I thought that was the case, and it's all darned good stuff too, from both of you. So huge thanks for that. :)

Incidentally - how did you get on with Scott? On the DVD, I think his teaching is unusually good ... covers some very important stuff in a particularly clear and helpful way.

Ian.

[ChrisJ]

Scott was a great guy and still is. We have daughters the same age (even though we are ten years apart) so talk a lot about "Dora The Exporer" and Disney.

When I went to MI in the late 80s, Scott was 33 years old I remember because, as I said, we are ten years apart and I was 23 then. He was a no-nonsense teacher. You had to be able to play some standards to be able to learn from him. You couldn't go in there and ask him to teach you some licks or something. So we would play standards like "Stella" or "Footprints" or some of the harder tunes that I can play now but couldn't play then like "Giant Steps" or any of the Wayne Shorter tunes. He reamed me many times about things, mostly about my timing. It was a good lesson at the time. He told me that if I'm going to play triplets that I should play triplets and if I'm going to play sixteenth notes, to play sixteenth notes. He said I play in the cracks too much and said if I didn't get it together, I wouldn't even be able to play in a top forty band and a local bar. So I got on it and made an effort to nail the rhythms. It was good for me but I can see how if you didn't have a thick skin, it would be very intimidating to play with him. He would let you play and then give you advice, sometimes harsh but all true and valuable.

He was always more than happy to describe what he used over chords and didn't have any secrets so to speak.

He has mellowed over the last twenty years, mostly because the students can't give him a run for the money like they used to. So he will play some of the easier standards if that is all you can play (like Blue Bossa or All Blues). I still teach in the room next to him so I get to hear him all day on Mondays. He is probably the greatest guitarist I have personally met and believe me, to sit with him and listen to him play some standards will humble you.

A sort of funny thing: I remember being 23 and playing with him, and him sounding great as he always does. I looked at him and thought to myself that he is great but that he has ten years on me, and that in ten years I will probably be that good. Boy, was I fooling myself. When I was 33, ten years after the fact, the same age as he was when I was thinking that, I remember listening to his Tribal Tech CD, I can't remember the name now but the one with "Elvis at the Hop" and laughed at myself. I hadn't even come close. It taught me a good lesson though, that you should never consider time an advantage because it doesn't add up to anything. I should have listened to him play when I was 23 and been more urgent to equal him. I won't do that again.

-CJ

[Crossroads]

Ha, ha (smiles) .... OK. well I don't want to turn this into a Scott Henderson appreciation thread, because we were really talking about your own book (& Imyan was originally talking about picks), but .... I'm also very impressed by Scott's playing & also by his teaching, so I'm very envious of you getting lessons from him in your youth. Yep, I understand you earned that by getting into MI in the first place.

Well it does sound as if he worked you hard ... but then, as I found out myself from occasional teaching, it's absolutely no use being soft about it ... so even though my so-called "lessons" are usually free, when the lesson begins I change from Mr Nice Guy to Mr Slave Driver lol.

Anyway - imho, on that DVD his playing is simply beautiful.

His phrasing and the actual "articulation" of each note (ie the way he expresses style in each & every note) is very charismatic...eg guys could listen to any of it, but listen for example to his "Jazz Blues Solo #2" which is on page 29 of the printable pdf file. In fact his playing & his examples were all so good that I made a point of transcribing everything on that DVD (not too hard, because 50% of it is already transcribed in the printout) and trying my best to copy everything he played ... I also tried to think about what he was playing, & why he was playing it, so hopefully I learned something more than simply copying him, at least that was the general idea.

As you say, a lot of that stuff is also explained in your book, and that's a big help because of course Scott didn't intend that DVD for complete beginners, so he assumes guys already know all the patterns for scales, modes and arps, eg melodic minor & minMaj7arps etc. So for me it's invaluable to have your book and the two books by Guthrie Govan, ie both as reference to printed diagrams & for text explanations of what can be used, when, & how.

Ian.

[ChrisJ]

Scott is an interesting player to play with because the way you would usually approach improvisation, sounds really weak next to him. Where most people would tend you play D dorian over a Dmin7 chord, you are very unlikely to get that from him, he would play something crazy like a whole tone scale down a half step. So when you play after him, if you are not on the same wave length as him you'll sound like a pre-schooler. After you get home and try to do what he does, it sounds wrong. It takes a lot of playing to develop a style like his.

I tried to explain very complex concepts in the book in an easy to understand and apply way.

-Chris