Maximum Speed Limit Question

[tonyguitarbyz]

Hey there. Maybe you guys can help me out here. I have a very serious problem with my picking in that I absolutely cannot play three-notes-per-string ideas any faster than sixteenth notes at 135BPM. I can't sweep at all either even though I know all the most common shapes in every key. Now here's a short history of the problem:
I've been playing for about 22 years now, have music degree and am a part-time guitar teacher and pro musician. I always practice with a metronome and have for about 20 years. As a result of my limitations with a pick, I've developed a kind of Satriani/faux-Holdsworth style and my legato seems to be OK. But to deal with picking once-and-for-all I have been playing the same 4 alternate picking licks for the last month for hours every day and really watching my right hand, but so far nothing. I can't get over the 135BPM hump and still have any tone or control. Has anyone else had this problem? How did you get over it? And finally, is it possible that I've reached my speed limit due to possible physiological shortcomings in the arm, wrist, and fingers or is it possibly my brain's inability to process the tiny, rapid, pick movements at fast tempos? I'm kind of at my wits end here! LOL. Am I a genetically inferior guitarist? Thanks for your help.

[magpie74]

I am also a professional musician of twenty-plus years experience and, like you, I also struggle with right hand control. In my case sweep picking hasn't been much of an issue -- not that I do much of it -- but I have extreme difficulty when alternate picking past the 120 bpm range. From one frustrated guitarist to another, you may well have reached your limitation regarding speed, although without knowing you personally I would hesitate telling you to throw-in the towel. Instead, I'll recommend a scientific approach.

In alternate picking, I have theorized that the upstroke is the natural reflex to the downstroke, and should be performed in the reverse direction but with the same ease and control. In other words, if a person can down pick eighth notes at a perticular tempo, then he ought to be able to alternate pick sixteenth notes at that same tempo, as doing so requires the same amount of motion. Even accounting for string resistance on the upstroke, surely a person could be expected to gain, say, a 75% increase in speed when switching from downstrokes-only to alternate picking. If this is true, then, in theory, a person could find the maximum sustainable speed at which he could straight down pick, roughly double it and find the maximum sustainable speed at which he could alternate pick.

For example, lets say, for sake of numbers, you could down pick eighth notes no faster than 200 bpm without introducing tension. By introducing the alternate stroke you should, logically, be able to play those same eighth notes at 400 bpm, or, more likely, play sixteenth notes at 200 bpm. Accounting for string resistance and the inherent weakness of the upstroke, that number might be reduced to eighth notes at 350 bpm or sixteenth notes at 175 bpm. In any event, any of these numbers would be a vast improvement over the 135 bpm you claim as your maximum.

To test this theory, I'd recommend keeping a daily practice log and use it to chart your progress. It may be that over the long haul you are making gains that aren't so obvious in day-to-day practice. Start by playing any given exercise with all downstrokes and note your maximum tempo. Then try the same exercise with alternate picking and note that maximum tempo. Compare the differences in tempo daily and see if over several weeks the differences become smaller and smaller, even if only by a few beats per minute. If so, then you have scientific proof of your development, even if you don't yet notice it in your own playing.

I hope this method is of some help in your journey. Many who frequent this forum would have you believe that with a metronome and enough time and effort a person can achieve whatever technical feats he can imagine, but I don't know that any of them have ever truly struggled with the issue as you and I have. One thing is for sure: if you've been doing the same thing for twenty years and it hasn't gotten you anywhere, then you're doing something wrong. Good luck, and don't forget that there's more to music than pure technique.

[Crossroads]

I have been playing the same 4 alternate picking licks for the last month for hours every day and really watching my right hand, but so far nothing.

One Month??????? Are you kidding? Would you expect to win the Olympic 100m Gold after running around the block twice?

OK here's how it works - first be sure to practice from a serious tutorial program, ie the obvious one is Paul Gilberts DVD ("obvious", because it's by far the best)...next, & leaving out 100 pages of tips & explanations about what to do & what not to do, the bottom line is - work from that DVD at least 2 to 3 hours a day for at least 18 months ... then see how far you've got. It may take a further year or two after that.

Ian.

[Padawan]

I had the same problem, I call it the alternate picking crisis. But have you ever considered to use your arm? Or maybe a different pick size? Since I've changed to bigger picks I have much more control.

[tonyguitarbyz]

Hey. Thanks for the responses. Much appreciated.


Magpie74 your theory is sound except for one thing which is unfortunately the source of my problem: Yes, we should, in theory, be able to use the upstorke as an equal subdivision of the downstroke except when crossing from a lower string to a higher one (outside picking). Going from say the D string to the G on an upstroke requires additional travel time. And that is the source of my frustration. Going from a lower string to a higher one on an upstroke has really been the source of my trouble especially with regard to three-notes-per-string ideas since every other string is an upstroke!
<p>

Crossroads I see your point and I think you misunderstood me somewhat. I'm not trying to take the licks into lightspeed territory. I just want to able to go from 135BPM to say 138BPM and still have some tone. Thats all for now. I've got all of Paul Gilbert's columns from Guitar Player and they are a fantastic resource. He's so good he pisses me off! LOL!
<p>

Padawan I use my arm only for death-metal style speed picking riffs. For lead playing the "stiff arm" approach just doesn't sound musical to my ear. But that's just me. I have changed picks in the last year. Now I'm using the Dunlop Tortex M3. They are the same size and shape as the Jazz3 but not quite as thick and "dull" sounding off the string.
<p>

Thanks for your help guys. This is the first time I've posted anything on this problem in a forum and I really appreciate the feedback. Anyone else have any ideas?

[furiousnewf]

Yeah, I think its something that a lot of guitarist stuggle with, and to me, its one of those things that if you don't keep it up it quicky goes away.

There was a good strickly thread awhile back about this.

http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9086

Has a good exercise and practice routine.

[Crossroads]

Crossroads I see your point and I think you misunderstood me somewhat. I'm not trying to take the licks into lightspeed territory. I just want to able to go from 135BPM to say 138BPM and still have some tone. Thats all for now. I've got all of Paul Gilbert's columns from Guitar Player and they are a fantastic resource. He's so good he pisses me off! LOL!


Ah, OK I get you now. And also, my post was a bit aggressive lol :) . But in my defence I was just trying to make clear to other guys (all sorts of people read these posts without saying a word themselves) that it does take years to play with the speed and accuracy of someone like Paul Gilbert.

If you just want a slight speed increase then first identify what's holding you back. That could be a very long list! But 5 problems are very common -

1. pick gets "stuck" (especially when crossing strings with an up-stroke)
2. picking gets out of strict alternating sync.
3. playing some notes by legato, when you should be picking
4. lack of sync between the two hands (different from “2” above)
5. failing to get the pinkie down quickly!

"1". To avoid the pick seeming to get stuck, grip the pick like Gilbert does. That alters the angle at which the tip & edge of the pick strikes the strings. It gives a twisted angle which reduces the tendency of the pick jamming/sticking by about 50% (the other 50% is partly down to no "5", see below, and partly just practice). Have alook at this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-NOMn3P9AE ... forget the noisy music stuff for the first min., but watch what he explains about the pick, not about the "sound of the pick", but look at the twisted angle of the pick...that comes automatically from the grip he describes...try using that grip to avoid the pick sticking.

"5". The pick will also seem to "stick" is you don't get you fretting fingers down quickly enough to be in sync with the pick movements. That's not usually a problem with the main fingers, but it is a problem with the "pinkie", ie most player can't get the pinkie down quickly enough to be in sync with the picking as the picking gets faster. The trick is just to be aware of that, and to consciously try to get that pinkie down a bit quicker onto the fretboard...and one way to do that is not to ever raise your fretting fingers very high from the fretboard, just keep the fingers close to the fretboard, even if it seems rather unnatural (particularly the pinkie!).

"2". As you pick faster, it's very easy to lose strict sync. of the alternating pick directions. I'm not talking about sync. between the two hands (see "4" for that). I'm just talking about getting out of strict sequence on the up's and down's with the pick. This is very common and about 99% of players do it without realising. It means that some notes in the lick will cause a real problem because you are left trying to pick them with an up-stroke when you should be using a down-stroke, the effect is like a sudden log-jam where the lick suddenly seems to mess-up. The only way to fix this is to play the lick slowly and watch your picking very careful to be sure you have the up's and downs in correct sequence. As you speed up it gets harder and that's often when it gets out of sequence. It happens because some notes are easier to hit with two up-strokes in a row, but after that you are out of sequence and problems occur on the subsequent notes. So you have to be strict about that - watch exactly what you are doing and be 100% strict about the up's and downs.

"3". About 90% of players do this without even realising it, ie play some note by legato, and they often swear blind they are not doing it (until it's forcibly pointed out!). It happens subconsciously, simply because it's very hard to pick every note alternately at high speed, so what happens is that guys inadvertently play the notes with pull-off's and hammer-ons without realising it. That changes the sound of the lick and they wonder why it doesn’t sound right. To check that just keep a very critical eye on what you are actually doing when playing the licks. To put it right, just practice any general alt. picking exercise (not the ultra fast stuff), just to get into a metronomic-like "groove" with alternate picking, eg just play scales purely by strict alternate picking, & practice that repeatedly until the alternation is automatic like a metronome!

"4". As you play faster, it's very easy to lose strict sync. between the two hands. The way to improve that is to practice it slowly at first, and then try speeding up, and then slowing down again. Sometimes it almost seems harder to slow down. But just keep a critical watch on that as you play...ask yourself is my fretting in correct sync with the picking?

Ian.

[Babsi]

Ian's "5" tip is great for building muscle memory AND accuracy.

[MAttButler]

The Tuck Andress article solved my issues after 20 years. "Benson Picking"

[NG7]

What helped me alot with my inside picking was to just sit down and play 2 note per string pentatonic boxes across and back the neck.

[tasdvl9]

It's extremely frustrating I know. Even more so when you see guys like Paul Gilbert
and Yngwie making it look so easy. I'll tell you something that you probably already
know but probably needs to be reinforced. RELAX. Tension and nervousness are two
limiting factors when attempting to break your speed barrier. Make sure you're only using enough tension when you pick to sound the note. Also, pay very close attention to the other muscles in your body. Are your tensing your shoulders when you pick?
Perhaps the muscles in your face are contorting when you attempt to move past
your picking threshhold. If so, then there's too much tension in your body.

This isn't a Zen philosophy towards picking. It really does help to slow down and
truly critique your posture and your picking hand form, as well as noticing any unnecessary tension in your body.

There are some really good picking concepts on youtube by a guy named Pebber Brown. He really breaks it down for you. You might not agree with his certain
picking motion but his ideas of slow practice will really help you I think.

Good Luck!

[Obivion]

Maybe it would be good to work on picking inside and outside the strings?

You can usually pick faster inside than out and it might be a factor in your 3 string patterns. Try to isolate and break down, analysing your technique in detail until you've found the weakest link.

[Crossroads]

Try to isolate and break down, analysing your technique in detail until you've found the weakest link.

That's the absolute key element imho. Whenever I had difficulty with a fast picking lick/excercise, it always turned out I was making a subconscious error of the kind I described above. It was never obvious, until I looked very critically at exactly what I was doing with both hands, then the faults were exposed.

It wasn’t always easy to correct those mistakes, because some of them had become ingrained, and anyway they are mostly natural shortcuts which almost all of use subconsciously to make the lick seem easier.

When you make the correction, the lick is not always easier to play, at least not immediately. But always I could immediately see & hear quite clearly how the lick would be corrected by the changes, and all it needed was to be very precise & observant about making those corrective changes & practicing the lick carefully like that.

Ian.

[furiousnewf]

For me its the pinky. It doesn't want to play nice. Its a bit messed up. Broke it playing basketball, but it still works. Players like Micheal Angelo will really stress minimizing all hand movements. So for me really concentrating on that helps.

[Crossroads]

For me its the pinky. It doesn't want to play nice. Its a bit messed up. Broke it playing basketball, but it still works. Players like Micheal Angelo will really stress minimizing all hand movements. So for me really concentrating on that helps.
Yes, and that can take a lot of head scratching before guys realise there's a problem with the pinkie.

Specifically - 99.9% of players naturally have far less power & control when fretting notes with the pinkie (even when you think you are really good with it ... it still isn't quite as adept as the other fingers), and although it's hard to spot, it seems many guys have a problem getting the pinkie down fast enough to fret the note in sync. with fast picking. There may be other problems with the pinkie, but that's the one I've seen most (& almost nobody realised it).

The solution is very simple - just make a conscious effort to keep the pinkie much lower to the fretboard, ie so it gets down more quickly to fret the note ... a lot of players would improve very noticeably & immediately if they just try that alone.

Ian.

[furiousnewf]

yeah, the pinky is the devil

[tonyguitarbyz]

RELAX. Tension and nervousness are two
limiting factors when attempting to break your speed barrier. Make sure you're only using enough tension when you pick to sound the note. Also, pay very close attention to the other muscles in your body. Are your tensing your shoulders when you pick?
Perhaps the muscles in your face are contorting when you attempt to move past
your picking threshhold. If so, then there's too much tension in your body.


Thanks everyone. I really appreciate all of your suggestions. I think the quote above really gets to the heart of my issue. I notice all kinds of tension in my right forearm as I'm picking and I'm not sure how to get rid of it. It seems to me that the faster you play, the more relaxed you have to be. And its mastering that idea that is really hanging me up. Thank god for legato! LOL

[curiousgeorge]

Make sure you're only using enough tension when you pick to sound the note.

Gonna have to strongly disagree with this advice...You should be using all sorts of different picking intensity to create some dynamics in your lines...Only picking hard enough to just sound the note will sound weak, dynamically boring playing at the same volume level all the time, and your playing will have no conviction to it. If you were referring to the fret hand, however, than that is sage advice and forget what I just said above. All the pressure you need from the fret hand is just enough to sound the note, but the trick is to keep that consistent while your pick hand varies the dynamics. One of the things you can do to prevent cramping and lactic acid build-up, is to stretch thoroughly before you play, including your arms, hands, and fingers...John Petrucci's Rock Discipline DVD has some great exercises for warming up and stretching. You should also be taking regular breaks and focus on playing relaxed while you are working your way up the speed ladder...By the time you reach the blinding speed you want to be at, your body should automatically be able to relax while you play.

[furiousnewf]

I believe they're referring to muscle tension.

I guess the trick is to still be able to use dynamics but not to cause tension in your muscles, is that even possible?

[Sperzel]

I've struggled with the same problem for about two years now. No matter what I did I could NOT get past 112 BPM cleanly when playing 16-notes. I got so mad about it I almost cried during one practise session lol!

But just recently, I discovered that when I played something at a low tempo to get it in my muscle memory, I changed the way I pick! I played more with my fingers, and I use my wrist when picking fast. So when time came to speed things up, I changed my technique and all the practise was pretty much useless (except for the left hand of course).

Problem was that this bad habit, playing different slow/fast, was now very stuck in my muscles. So it was back to basics, tremolo picking one note and then slow down to find my "true motion". I think that this is a common problem, and I strongly suggest you to really try and find any differences in your right hand motion when playing slow and fast. If you do, you know what to do.

Cheers and good luck!

[curiousgeorge]

I just wanted to add that it also depends on the person...Everyone has different levels of experience and natural talent, different finger lengths, different finger calouses etc etc.... Crossroads, I don't believe it would take years and years to attain those goals with FOCUSED practice and visualization, but some may take a few more months than others to attain them. Just look at these young shredders like Trivium and Alexi Laiho, or the 17 year old high school kid who walks into a guitar store and out-shreds his guitar heroes. I know a few kids who have more technical skill than even Steve Vai or Joe Satriani... Some people are just not physically or mentally made for shredding either...

[superlocrian]

I know it's been said before but I must say that consistency is the name of the game here. It doesn't help to practice 8 hrs on a day at alternate picking and then skip a few and think you will catch up by doing another 8 hrs. You need to practice it everyday.

I while ago I though that it was physically impossible for me to play 8th note triplets past 180. Now I do them at 200 and laugh at the fact that I even thought that.

Another interesting aspect of AP is endurance. I find sometimes that I may be able to play 8th note triples at 220 at short bursts, but not able to sustain it. That's what I am really working on now. If you look at guys like Paul Gilbert, they seem to be able to play at crazy speeds for long periods. Just look at the intro to Intense Rock 1. Oh well, back to the practicing room!!!!

[Crossroads]

.... Crossroads, I don't believe it would take years and years to attain those goals with FOCUSED practice and visualization, but some may take a few more months than others to attain them.
Sure, there are always exceptions. And there may be many reasons for that.

But two things.

First, notice how many guys come onto the forum saying "I've been trying to learn to shred for 3months/1year/2years and I just can't get faster than 140bpm 16ths, what am I doing wrong?". That's probably the most popular type of question on the entire forum.

So that's the first thing - it shows how many guys try very hard at this for a very long time, and they can't get anywhere near their goal.

The second thing is this - when guys like Paul Gilbert or Shawn Lane talk about how they learned to pick fast, they rarely if ever give a clear account of exactly how much work they were putting in, or for how long. But when they do talk about that, it's quite clear that they worked very hard on it for several years before we ever heard them playing anything like that in public.

So that's the 2nd thing - guys make all sorts of fantastic claims, and most of those claims are not worth listening to, but on those occasions where we do get some real insight into how even the exceptional "gifted" players progressed, it seems they all took at least a year or two.

We could ask guys here to reply if they learnt to pick at 200bpm in less than say 3 months, but frankly that's just inviting unknown faceless guys to make wild boasts about their own claims of brilliance. lol. You'll certainly get plenty of guys replying with all sorts of claims of talent & genius .... but imho those stories are worthless.

Bottom line - we can't provide answers/replies for the small percentage who may be truly exceptional & who actually can learn to play almost anything in a fraction of the usual time ... but for the majority of guys here, the hard fact is it will probably take at least a year or two of constant practice to reliably shred stuff anywhere near 200bpm 16ths.

On the other hand .... playing at that speed often sounds like a absolute mess to me anyway. For me, Paul Gilbert & Shawn Lane are exceptions because they can remain musical with cleanly articulated notes. But for many other guys, I think they would do well to concentrate on more musical & creative stuff rather than obsessing about picking speed.

All of which is personal opinion of course, and guys are welcome to try any approach they want ;) .

Ian.

[superlocrian]

I'd like to make a comment on these alternate picking threads. There seems to be a common "thread" with them and there have been a lot. It starts with somebody asking advice on how to pick faster. Then come the obvious replies of practicing with a metronome, consistency, angle of pick etc, etc, all of which have been covered extensively by Eric V in some brilliant, professional and helpful articles. There are also tons of threads with helpful hints.

Next come a few posts on how picking fast is not musical and that players should focus more on tone and musical lines. While I don't disagree that this is true, it is unfair to the original thread starter in not answering his/her question. Next come a few arguments of speed vs. musical.

Fact is both are equally important, as well as tons of other aspects of playing music.

So where am I going? This is a musical community, right! Let's help each other with practical exercises and not harp on about personal feelings about speed picking etc. Point is, if you are not into fast picking, don't knock some poor guy who's dream is to play like Paul Gilbert.

So let me lead by example or be guilty of the same pointless ranting :-)

Here is a link to the free lessons on alternate picking on the Theodore Ziras site. http://www.theodoreziras.com/free_lessons_alternate.htm

These exercises practiced over time, consistently and with a metronome WILL improve your speed! If you download the .zip files, you also get the vid.

[Crossroads]

Next come a few posts on how picking fast is not musical and that players should focus more on tone and musical lines. While I don't disagree that this is true, it is unfair to the original thread starter in not answering his/her question. Next come a few arguments of speed vs. musical.
Well I mentioned musicality & tasteful playing at lower speeds, so maybe your comments are aimed at me?

That's OK, because if you look at my posts in this thread (and all my other posts), you'll see ten times as much on constructive suggestions for how to pick fast, and only very brief comments at the end to say that I think guys often get too obsessive about speed for the sake of it, as if artistic musical phrasing etc. was something they'd lost sight of.

I'm not saying they have to become more musical and reduce their interest in fast picking. What I'm saying is fast picking is not the only game in town, and if you're having massive problems with it over many months (or even several years), then please don't think it's the end of the world, because there are other equally interesting & beautiful ways to play.

However, I entirely agree that if someone is asking about how to pick fast, it's useless for guys to reply saying "fast picking is outdated crap, you should play X instead!". If fast picking is his goal, then that's what he should try to achieve. And you can do it, though it may take a lot of dedicated practice. But at the end of that, don't be surprised if guys like me still say your playing sounds crap and sounds far worse than if you'd just learnt to play with some nice funky/jazzy blues phrasing instead! .... but of course, that last bit IS just about individual taste and opinion.

Ian.

[superlocrian]

Crossroads, definitely not aimed at you :-) Sorry, if it seemed aimed at you.

It's just that I have read hundreds of AP posts and the same stuff just comes up time and time again. Being a keen A picker myself I sometimes get frustrated how people have never really offered advice to the threads I started, but just post opinionated answers.

I would just like to see more helpful hints in the forums.

[Crossroads]

Ha, ha ... well it's OK if it was aimed at me, because I agree with you lol! :D

Also, to make a dangerous comment :eek: - I sometimes get the impression that many of the most experienced & respected guys here have never actually tried to play at high speed with alternate picking.

That's fine if they don't want to do that. But if they did try it then I think they might be quite shocked at how difficult it actually is.

For example - if you give me a typical complex lick from some celebrated guitarist, it might take me 2 or 3 mins to copy it exactly. But if you ask me to play a typical Paul Gilbert lick at 220bpm, then I'll probably have to work on that for months! IOW - whether we like the sounds or not, the fact is (imho), there is a vast difference in how tricky these things are to perfect.

Ian.

[superlocrian]

So that's the 2nd thing - guys make all sorts of fantastic claims, and most of those claims are not worth listening to, but on those occasions where we do get some real insight into how even the exceptional "gifted" players progressed, it seems they all took at least a year or two.



I agree with you here Crossroads. A while ago I posted a 16th note AP exercise from the Theodore Ziras site and a whole bunch of guys replied claiming to be able to play it at 200bpm!!!! which is very fast. If they really can play it that fast then let them post a Mp3 or more importantly offer some advice on how they got that quick instead of just saying "look at me"

[CC323]

The last time I checked my alt picking speed was friday, and for 3 nps diatonic style stuff, I hit about 160-166 w/ a metronome and accuracy, and for chromatic 4 nps, which are really quite pointless, I can get about to about 200-210 mostly accurately. I had a really hard time with alternate about 4 months ago when I learned my first 'difficult' guitar solo, Pull Me Under by Dream Theater. I struggled with the switches between legato and picking mostly, but now I can play it along with the CD almost perfectly. I think the reason that you hit a 'speed wall' is because your muscles are accustomed to the method of 'slow' practice, especially in your picking hand since you said you can do holdsworth-ish legato. In the book, "Fundamentals of Piano Practice," the author Cheng C. Chuan explains that by going from slow to fast, you teach your muscles to play the piece the wrong way for playing it fast, which is why he discusses how to bring licks to infinite speed(chords), and then seperating them into REALLY fast arpeggios(slowing it down). I'm primarily a guitarist, but after I read this I decided I'd try to whip through chromatics as fast as possible, but instead of focusing on accuracy focusing on using as small of picking motions as possible and minimizing stress. I have really found this to help, and, of course you still want to be accurate, but by pushing to very extreme speeds, you can condition the fast twitch muscle fibers in your hands to expand and contract when necessary and then focus on accuracy. I do alot of steve morse style arpeggio alternate picking exercises for accuracy (Tumeni Notes is great) as well as playing diatonic (including melodic and harmonic minor) modes as cleany as possible, then I go over the top (usu. w/ chromatics). Sorry for the long post, I hope this helps you out.

[NG7]

That's a good tip CC323. Shawn Lane give similar advice when it comes to playing fast.

[curiousgeorge]

The last time I checked my alt picking speed was friday, and for 3 nps diatonic style stuff, I hit about 160-166 w/ a metronome and accuracy, and for chromatic 4 nps, which are really quite pointless, I can get about to about 200-210 mostly accurately. I had a really hard time with alternate about 4 months ago when I learned my first 'difficult' guitar solo, Pull Me Under by Dream Theater. I struggled with the switches between legato and picking mostly, but now I can play it along with the CD almost perfectly. I think the reason that you hit a 'speed wall' is because your muscles are accustomed to the method of 'slow' practice, especially in your picking hand since you said you can do holdsworth-ish legato. In the book, "Fundamentals of Piano Practice," the author Cheng C. Chuan explains that by going from slow to fast, you teach your muscles to play the piece the wrong way for playing it fast, which is why he discusses how to bring licks to infinite speed(chords), and then seperating them into REALLY fast arpeggios(slowing it down). I'm primarily a guitarist, but after I read this I decided I'd try to whip through chromatics as fast as possible, but instead of focusing on accuracy focusing on using as small of picking motions as possible and minimizing stress. I have really found this to help, and, of course you still want to be accurate, but by pushing to very extreme speeds, you can condition the fast twitch muscle fibers in your hands to expand and contract when necessary and then focus on accuracy. I do alot of steve morse style arpeggio alternate picking exercises for accuracy (Tumeni Notes is great) as well as playing diatonic (including melodic and harmonic minor) modes as cleany as possible, then I go over the top (usu. w/ chromatics). Sorry for the long post, I hope this helps you out.

It might have worked for Lane, but I doubt it would work for the majority...If you are starting as fast as you can go, you are training your fingers to play sloppily, and are risking tearing the muscles and tendons in your hand...Accuracy should be the first thing you focus on, not the last. I'm sure Chuan is a great musician, but I would have to severely disagree with his advice...I really don't see how starting out slow inhibited Steve Vai and many other shredders, or that it taught them the "wrong way for playing it fast". They certainly haven't showed any evidence of an inferior technique that exposes inaccuracies...

[NG7]

You don't start as fast as you can and you don't continue playing at your limit this way either.

You may do it for only abit each day, but you can return to slowing down again.

The idea is to break with the continuum your regular metronome routine of playing slowly, so your fingers don't get stuck memorizing how to play that way.

I don't see why you are risking tearing your muscles and tendons either because while you are pushing your speed to the extreme, you must also remain relaxed. CC323 says this in his post.

This is my understanding of it from hearing what Shawn said and I hope that made a few things clear.

[curiousgeorge]

Well, the thing is, many players have a hard time staying relaxed and tense up when they play fast, especially those who are anxious to build their technique up in a short amount of time (seems like everyone wants a magic bullet that will propel them into shred god territory immediately). This can cause a lot of damage if they attempt to play beyond their limits...I'm going to try this method on a few speed licks and see what happens anyways, just out of curiosity....Personally, I've always had success learning licks up to speed with a metronome, starting very slowly, and gradually raising the BPM's...I can usually advance quite quickly this way...I had Satriani's Crushing Day solo, for example, nailed up to speed within a week or two, so I think the slow-to-fast metronome method definitely has merit.

[NG7]

The following advice is really for anyone newish guitar player who's reading this and wants to give it a try.

I agree, players may be prone to tensing up when playing really fast, so it should be stressed for anyone reading this that you must stay relaxed. You play at your limit while also maintaining correct physical technique.

It should also be stressed that this isn't something you keep doing for hours a day, but something you just use to break the block of playing slow. If you practice this way too much you will be inaccurate with your picking.

Furthermore this isn't a separate method from the metronome method, but it's rather something used in conjunction.

[CC323]

Yeah, this is definitely not meant to be separate from accurate practice, nor do I believe it's a beginner technique. Tonyguitarbyz did, however, say he could do holdsworth-esque legato , which is something I would advise against if you are completely cold. I didn't mention this, but as someone with the left hand skill to play well and an above average right hand, I assumed he has some form of warm ups in his playing schedule. I also didn't mean to imply that 'pushing past accuracy' should be equal to one's accurate practice, just a brief, 5 minutes or less, muscular training. While many poster's on here have said that it take much longer than a month to get good, which I do agree with, you should not be stuck at one tempo with adequate practice, and when that problem may arise, I would then suggest squeezing a little bit of over-speed into your schedule. BTW NG7, I had no clue that was similar to something shawn lane said and I am in no way trying to take credit for it as an original idea, simply an adaptation of Chuan's advice for piano that helped me greatly, but thank you for the complement.

P.S. For warming up I generally actually do my daily circuit training (Alternation between freelifting and cardio) workout right before my practice sessions to get the blood flowing to the arms and really everywhere, then I do the rock discipline stretches & massages, after which I spend anywhere from 10-30 minutes of 16th notes diatonic patterns at 120bpm or under on the metronome to get the hands working, then increase the speed to about 140-145, get that clean, then 180ish as clean as possible but not very clean, down to 160ish and then that's my 'actual' speed. Then I do the 'over-speed' technique, then usually pickup some petrucci solos and fire away. The point of this supererogatory paragraph is to EMPHASIZE THE NECESITY OF AN EXTENDED WARM-UP! Playing fast will not hurt you IF you prepare yourself! People refuse to believe this, but why do relatively slow black metal guitarists often get tendonitis and have to quit, while guys like Rusty Cooley, Shawn Lane, Guthrie Govan, and John Petrucci can smoke? PREPARATION! I don't mean to sound hostile, but way many people try to tell me I'm wrong on this but having studied anatomy briefly at junior college, I know this as a fact.

P.P.S. To anyone try to gain technical proficency, good luck and best of wishes! (actually, just to anyone!)

[CC323]

...Personally, I've always had success learning licks up to speed with a metronome, starting very slowly, and gradually raising the BPM's...I can usually advance quite quickly this way...I had Satriani's Crushing Day solo, for example, nailed up to speed within a week or two, so I think the slow-to-fast metronome method definitely has merit.

Slow-to-Fast of course has merit, especially for learning a run and keeping it fresh in your kinesthetic memory, but would you say that Satriani's Crushing Day is the pinnacle of alternate picking velocity? Of course not. He' an awesome player, please don't misunderstand, but trying to get Shawn Lane, Rusty Cooley, and even alot of more recent Yngwie runs can be a very painstaking process that, in my opinion, can be sped up quite a bit by using the 'extreme speed burst' technique. I watched Rock Discipline today because I thought I remembered a similar statement that went way over my head when I first watched it, and JP mentions a similar technique for overcoming tough spots. It is the first exercise, the chromatic one, in the speed & accuracy section, and once he gets up to 200bpm, he says if getting to 208 is kind of impossible, take it to 216, try it there, then bring back down and it should be much easier. Good Luck with whatever you try though, and please don't misinterpret that I think everyone should do this. If you try it and like it, great, but if you prefer your method, who am I to say what the Be All End all is for you.

[NG7]

I was just about to mention that I also rememeber JP demonstrating the same thing in that video.

And not at all. It didn't look like you were trying to take credit for it haha.

Another thing you know you can edit your posts to add more instead of making a separate post. :)

[CC323]

Thanks, I'll do that if that happens again...:D

[harmonicsex]

I feel just as long as you practice correctlly and use the proper technique --using pinky at all times when needed---eventually you WILL get there. SLOW ACCURATE reps and your brain will learn... and try to stay away from Satriani or those that don't prioritize technique..nothing against satch just his picking sucks lol I think crushing day was the only picking i ever heard from him and it was at 16 notes at 160 or 170 bpm lol Don't waste your time with sloppy players like herman Li as well.. another disaster. I'd stick to MAB, Rusty, yngwie, pettruci, Lane, those that have great tech, Vinnie Moore, Greg Howe, you know the lot... They might not have the best sounding songs some of them.. but they know their **** when it comes to technique.. oh and make alt picking a must. that with legato forget tapping and the rest.. prioritize picking ...I always had more respect for those that can pick like a mother ****er! Just something about that machine gun sound and the swells that hits you in the balls haha
It is Just a matter of how far you want to go. I feel a lot of people give up out of fustration along the way but for those that don't and can play with perfect picking tech I'm sure they worked very hard to get there. It is not impossible at all just it's gonna take a lot of work and fustration perseverence and motivation! I know because i'm not there yet but I know I'm gonna get there at some point at the rate i'm going. There are so many mistakes I was making at first it was pathetic and most was cause I was copying players that suck hahaa Anyhow yesterday I was watching ij awe a dude play from a guitar world forum ..I wonder if anyone knows how fast this guy is playing cause it's unbelievable.
Check out the second link called endurance that type of clean picking is way sick lofl Nevermind the link below this one cuase I can't get this one to be blue clickable type. Most of the sick as hell picking is towards the middle of the jam. I think that's a jackson soloist guitar damn fine guitar too!

http://www.guitarworld.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=47&p=658183



THIS ONE:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q8rU-13eC4

That is the kind of technique I'd sell my soul for :cool:

[The Pecker]

Hey, I posted a thread similar to this one since I hadn't seen this one before. I'm having problems breaking 100 BPM sixtuplets. I know my left hand has the speed because I can hammer on 3NPS exercises at about 120. I have Paul Gilbert's Intense Rock, I know the exercises, etc. I've narrowed my problem down to picking from the wrist. I tried the "pick one note on one string as fast as you can while still relaxed" to find my "max-speed" and I can hit about 105. It used to be worse for me. I used to anchor my palm, then I started floating but anchoring with my pinky, which only bumped me up about 5-10 BPM. I'm going to start trying to pick only from the wrist, because I've noticed all the really fast alternate pickers go straight from the wrist. Here's my problem - Almost no matter how slow I go, I can't seem to pick completely from the wrist. My forearm is always moving a little bit, and I can see my hand actually move up and down just a little bit. Does anybody have any tips for picking strictly from the wrist? I've been stuck for MONTHS now and its really frustrating. Any help would be appreciated.

[NG7]

You're probably using your forearm/elbow to move between strings, which is fine.

As long as you're using the wrist for the actual picking motion.