Escape from the box

[Devon8822]

So, I have been dabbling with 3&4 note per string scale, I have gotten the hang of the technique required but I am not sure if its worth memorizing them. People talk about it being an escape from the box, but I don't see how 3&4 per string patterns is any better than say learning all the 3nps patterns and moving up and down the next with them.

Here is an old Tony Macalpine article/lessons I found with Am in 3&4 notes per string.

http://tonymacalpine4.tripod.com/Macalpine_Lessons/GFTPM_guitar_secrets_Feb_1991.jpg

Can we get some discussion on why 3&4 note per string patterns are advantageous? You cannot get as much speed as with 3nps with them. But is the phrasing really any different?

[Malcolm]

I think you are saying you do not see where playing a 4 note per string instead of a 2 and 3 note per string or even a 3 note per string does anything to help you move out of your box. I agree you just gave up a 3 note per string box to jump into a 4 note per string box. You are still in a box.

Now I'm not going to address which is faster than the other. Fast is not my thing. The video I'm sending you to talks about moving your patterns to where they flow seamless. Breaking out of a box to a seamless flow is what I think you have reference to. Take a look:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=K_qw03-3gFg

Connecting your pattern notes so they flow into and out of each other....... will in the long run help flow and speed.

[Chim_Chim]

You cannot get as much speed as with 3nps with them3&4 NPS patterns are good for legato playing and speed.

3&4 NPS patterns get you moving more laterally/horizontally across the fretboard instead vertically in one tiny little box where you only move across the strings in one tiny little area of the fretboard like the basic or "caged" 2plus3 NPS patterns. Not that those aren't great and useful patterns too.

Playing up and down the length of each individual string one at a time is an even better way to escape the box.

Ideally you want to play all sorts of patterns which move in all different directions. In every direction.

[Jed]

Playing up and down the length of each individual string one at a time is an even better way to escape the box.

Ideally you want to play all sorts of patterns which move in all different directions. In every direction.

The whole concept of breaking out of the box is ultimately about switching our thinking from patterns to individual notes and eventually ending up at a place where we see the individual notes in lots of various patterns as both notes and in patterns at the same time. All of this is commonly approached by practicing various scales and modes in as many different fingering patterns and melodic sequences as possible.

The challenge is to learn the patterns in terms of notes on a deep level for each of the pattern groups. Then moving between patterns and pattern groups becomes a non-issue - at that point you have "broken out of the box" thinking.

The most important piece of advice I ever received to achieve this was to "Know each note by name and function, before you play it" and it's alternative "Make each note you play a conscious choice and be ready to explain why you chose to play that particular note at that particular time."

cheers,

Jed

[curiousgeorge]

Why does one need to be accountable for the notes they play? One of the reasons I love playing guitar is that I don't have to justify why I played something, but if I did, the answer would always be the same: "because I felt like it". I'm not knocking theory, but making it mandatory to learn and making musicians justify what they play just sucks the life out of the fun of making music and experimenting IMO.

[Devon8822]

Thanks guys, I realize now what they mean "exactly" by breaking out of the box... thats not a problem for me as I am a very good improvisor and I normally use 3nps patterns (all 7) up and down the neck, switching constantly.

I am however, experimenting with 3&4 NPS... the only "advantage I have heard for these is "breaking out of the box"... which as I said is not a problem for me or anybody else who has put some hours into practicing...

I want to know what other advantages 3&4 NPS patterns give too you... surely Tony Macalpine doesn't have a problem with phrasing in 3NPS patterns to have to force him to use 3&4... do you get what I am saying? The must be something mroe too 3&4 NPS patterns? What other advantages are there? thanks

[Crossroads]

Well you already said you knew what it meant to “break out of the box”, but I’ll explain it anyway - it has nothing to do with 3nps (4nps is ultra rare, and afaik only Alan Holdsworth really uses 4nps).

“Breaking out of the box” just means getting out of the habit of playing in one fixed scale position (say 5th position). The phrase really comes from the time when almost everyone began by learning Aminor pentatonic pattern-1 (ie 5th position). The idea being that you should expand your playing ideas by moving from pattern-1 into the adjoining patterns (patterns 2 and 5) ... so you’re not soloing in one fixed position, but instead soloing by moving through the patterns up and down the neck. That’s all there is to that idea of “breaking out of the box”.

The value of 3nps scales is simply that it’s much easier to play really fast alternate picked scale runs on adjacent strings (eg Paul Gilbert). You can’t do that so quickly with 2-3nps scales such as the traditional major/minor diatonic scale patterns or the traditional pentatonic patterns...it’s just much harder to play really fast with those.

Personally, apart from speed, I prefer the traditional scale patterns using 2 & 3 notes per string.

Of course when you get really good, and when you know all the notes on the fretboard instantly, then you can do as Jed says and just play the scale notes anywhere on the neck, ie without using any pre-determined patterns.

Ian.

[Jed]

Why does one need to be accountable for the notes they play? One of the reasons I love playing guitar is that I don't have to justify why I played something, but if I did, the answer would always be the same: "because I felt like it". I'm not knocking theory, but making it mandatory to learn and making musicians justify what they play just sucks the life out of the fun of making music and experimenting IMO.
Who's making it mandatory? Last time I checked the Theory Police don't have any enforcement powers. You are free to play anything you want and can choose to know or not know the notes you are playing.

The most important piece of advice I ever received to achieve this (a concious facility with the instrument) was to "Know each note by name and function, before you play it" and it's alternative "Make each note you play a conscious choice and be ready to explain why you chose to play that particular note at that particular time."

I was relaying advice that I received many years ago that I felt might be of interest to anyone who aspires to play jazz and / or improve their level of musicianship. You of course are not bound by my opinions and can take or leave these comments as they were presented - just advice that I found to be valuable. YMMV

cheers,

Jed

[ChrisJ]

It is only a matter of being satisfied with what you play or not. When you get to the point in your musical adventures when you start to say to yourself; "Man, I'm playing the same old crap day after day, solo after solo, year after year" is when you have to try to lose the old patterns. So you have to set up parameters in your practice. I'll give you a few examples. You are tired of your solos and you use the typical 5 scale patterns (the ones based on the caged system). You could practice improvising using only:

1: 3nps patterns
2: Scales that incorporate open strings. In other words, you have to play the C major scale with all six strings open when possible.
3: Scales only on one or two strings at a time
4: You have to take off one of the strings on your guitar (B or G string are good choices)

All these things will force you to play new things.

I've attached a C major scale that incorporates open strings. Even an experienced player will find it challenging to use this pattern instead of the ones he would normally use. It takes time but the rewards are well worth it because when you get good at it, you will no longer sound like everyone else.

-CJ

[chengiskhan]

For me it took some hard core ear training (ie, dictation on guitar and transcribing) to finally get out of the box. Once you learn to let your ears lead your fingers, you can go anywhere. However, as long as your visual and motor memory are leading your fingers, you will have a hard time getting out of that box.