Oh no... more modes!!

[chengiskhan]

I have a question:

If I understand correctly, modes are not really that useful in terms of understanding diatonic theory. I mean sure, if you are playing a solo over a I-IV-V progression in the key of C, you could think of it as playing in C ionian, followed by F lydian, followed by G mixolydian, but that's not really the point is it? I mean really, it's just better to think of this progression as being in the key of C and just play C major over the whole thing...

So then the real point of modes is to get a modal sound, as each of the modes has a different flavor. Accordingly, you want to play a progression or vamp that helps you achieve that sound. What is the theory surrounding what chords sound good together in the various modes? For example, I understand that playing ii-V is great for soloing in dorian mode, but what is the theory behind it?

BTW, I realize that relating modes to the major scale may aid in learning the modes more quickly, but at the end of the day, doesn't that more often than not just confuse the student?

[dublshot]

if you are playing a solo over a I-IV-V progression in the key of C, you could think of it as playing in C ionian, followed by F lydian, followed by G mixolydian

Well, you could use those modes to come up with extensions for those chords - if you want to stay in key. You’ve heard about using every third note of a scale to construct a chord? Another way is to just study formulas of chords and their extensions and compare to mode formulas. You can use the modes to understand where triads and their extensions actually come from given a home key, that is, if you want to get into the ‘math’ of it - overdoing this not nesseasary unless you want to build your own system for accessing chords from scales.

Soloing in dorian just means you are making ‘D’ the bass, or main note, right? That makes sense simply because Dm (or ii) is the main chord, just like Dm - F, or Dm - C, just because it comes first. Just playing off of the main note or chord is what modes (in practice) are all about, for me at least, Eventually, you work past the theory stuff out of books.

As far as theory, maybe you should just think of a mode as just a 7-note extension of a chord - the root becomes the tonic. Whatever works for you.:cool:

BTW Any questions?

[JonR]

I have a question:

If I understand correctly, modes are not really that useful in terms of understanding diatonic theory. I mean sure, if you are playing a solo over a I-IV-V progression in the key of C, you could think of it as playing in C ionian, followed by F lydian, followed by G mixolydian, but that's not really the point is it? I mean really, it's just better to think of this progression as being in the key of C and just play C major over the whole thing...Yes.
Modes are merely descriptive or analytical terms, to talk about the sound of the scale over the various chords, or the various diatonic extensions available.

"Playing C major over the whole thing" doesn't mean you should ignore the chords completely, of course. Each chord "colours" the scale, by emphasising a different group of notes (its arpeggio), against which the remaining scale notes may (or may not) enhance the function of the chord.
That's the essential point in key-based music: you need to be aware of the function of each chord, the job it is doing in the sequence. Some scale notes may sound bad against the chord, if (and because) they disrupt the chord function.
Modal terms will not help you here. (They name the effects but don't tell you what's good or bad.)
In addition, thinking modally on each chord means not seeing the wood (the key) for the trees (the chords). It makes you focus too much on the "vertical" (how notes stack up on each chord) and ignore the "horizontal" (how chords work functionally and melodically).


So then the real point of modes is to get a modal sound, as each of the modes has a different flavor. Accordingly, you want to play a progression or vamp that helps you achieve that sound. What is the theory surrounding what chords sound good together in the various modes? For example, I understand that playing ii-V is great for soloing in dorian mode, but what is the theory behind it?
The difference in modal music (at least as the term is used in jazz and - to a certain extent - in rock) is that the harmony is "non-functional". Chords don't "move" anywhere (much), the harmony is static.

So a ii-V sequence will normally make you expect a I chord to follow. That's the usual function of those chords (represented by the roman numerals).
But if you alternate them, and never play the I, the effect is make the root of the ii sound like the keynote.
So in effect it isn't a "ii-V" (in a major key) but a "i-IV" in dorian mode.

IOW, Dm7-G7, round and round, is no longer "in the key of C (major)", it's "in D dorian mode". Meanind Dm7 is "i", not ii, and G7 is IV, not V. (You have to be able to hear it that way.)

You could of course, just play Dm7 on its own.
Or you could alternate the Dm7 with one or two other chords from C major. Eg these both make good dorian vamps:

Dm7-Am7
Dm7-Em7

You can also use C as the 2nd chord, but in that case you need to make C shorter, eg like this:

|Dm7 / / C |Dm7 / / C| - or - |Dm7 / / / |Dm7 / C / |

If the chords have equal weight it may just sound like a ii-I in C major, because C has a natural gravitational pull on that set of notes (I've heard that sequence in reggae) - assuming there is a B in the scale.

Ionian (the major key) is the strongest mode by far, which is why we need to limit the number of chords if playing in other modes, to stop the relative major key taking over.


A typical rock mixolydian vamp might be this:

|E / / / |D / A / |
or
|E / / / |E / D A |

The chords all share the A major scale, but the A chord has a weak role in the sequence, squeezed between D and the next E. The E chord will dominate, sounding like the key centre.

In fact, in rock, mixolydian is a very common and familiar sound, perhaps even more popular than the major key. For this reason, mixolydian centres are not too hard to establish.
(A recent discussion elsewhere on "Sweet Home Alabama" highlighted this. Most people hear the sequence - |D / C / |G / / / | - as a I-VII-IV in D mixolydian, even tho the IV chord (G) has more weight than the other two. In theory - and to non-rock ears - the sequence would be a V-IV-I in G major, but most rock musicians don't hear it that way.)

A more common (and well established) mixolydian sequence is this:

|I / / / |bVII / / / |IV / / / |I / / / | - or |D|C|G|D in D mixolydian. (Returning to D secures the key centre.)


Phrygian: The distinctive element in this mode is the b2. So vamps generally exploit that. Eg, for E phrygian:

|Em / / / |Em / F / |

You can probably include a 3rd chord too:

|Em / / / |G / F / |

|Em / / / |F / G F |

- as long as Em still sounds like the "home" chord.


Lydian: this is a trickier one. In theory, lydian is a highly stable tonality (more stable than ionian), but introducing secondary chords to the mode tends to draw the ear away, unless they're quite brief. The following could work:

|Fmaj7 / / / |Fmaj7 / G7 / |

Add a #11 (B) to the Fmaj7 to underline its lydian nature.


Aeolian: as the foundation of the minor key, this is a very familiar sound, so is pretty stable, admitting many other chords.
However, you have to make sure the v is minor (of course), as well as (probably) avoiding the III (the relative major tonic).
Aeolian is pretty common in rock. Here's a typical cycle:

|Am / / G |F / / G |

These sequences also work:

|Am / / / |F / G / |
|Am / G / |F / Em |

- as will any combination of Am, Dm and Em, as long as it returns to Am.
(REM's "Losing My Religion" works well as an A aeolian tune, using 5 chords from C major (Am, Em, F, Dm, G) - right up to the bridge where a C chord occurs, making it sound like the C major key straight away.)


Locrian: this mode is practically unusable as an orthodox tonality. (It was always theoretical only in classical convention.)
However, the b5 does give it bluesy connotations, and various riffs are perefctly possible from locrian mode. They will always sound unresolved - but that may be a desired effect.
But you can really only use one chord: a m7b5 (half-diminished).


In jazz they tend to use the following chord types to signal modal tonalities:

Lydian: maj7#11, maj9#11, maj13#11

Mixolydian: 7sus4, 9sus4, 13sus4

Phrygian: susb9 (7sus4b9)

Dorian: m11

Aeolian: mb6, m7b13 (very rare)

Not all those chords are exclusive to those modes (eg 7sus4 would fit aeolian, dorian and phrygian as well as mixolydian), but that tends to be how they are used.
This is in so-called "modal" jazz, btw (or vamp-based, non-functional sequences), not key-based jazz such as bebop.

[chengiskhan]

Thank, Jon. Very, very helpful. I think I'm finally starting to understand modes.

[Malcolm]

but at the end of the day, doesn't that more often than not just confuse the student?
We do tend to confuse -- not only students. How about this:

1) If we will be playing the tune use a chord progression and whatever scale the vocalist wants -- and then play the established tune. There is no need for modes or improvisation in this instance.

2) Improvising 101 - If we are just starting then use pentatonic scales to improvise - use a chord progression and move the pentatonic scale to match the chord. That's 101.

3) If we plan on doing an improvisation with modes - then use a modal vamp and the mode that fits the feeling we are looking for. This is 210.

Up to now that is a simple rule of thumb that could be followed quite easily There could be a step inserted to cover progressions with modes, but, I would try and leave it out and pick that up in the next step. Which should be considered advanced playing and should be stressed as such.

4) If we plan on embellishing the tune -- then use a combination of 101 and 210 and take than into jazz theory.

One step at a time. IMHO we tend to bite off great big chunks and that makes it confusing.

[Meds]

Again, Jon clears it up. That was really helpful. I always get a new insight when I read your posts!

[dublshot]

JonR, you have really got some fans here!

How about letting us hear your music?

[Crossroads]

JonR, you have really got some fans here!

How about letting us hear your music?
I think he likes Jazz. You could listen to some Wayne Shorter ... I think that’s his sort of music ;) .

Ian.

[JonR]

I think he likes Jazz. You could listen to some Wayne Shorter ... I think that’s his sort of music ;) .

Ian.

Yes, I like Wayne Shorter.
I also like (in no particular order) Howlin' Wolf, Bob Dylan, Big Bill Broonzy, Thelonius Monk, Radiohead, the Memphis Jug Band, the Bulgarian State Female Choir, Little Richard, Blind Blake, Toumani Diabate, Django Reinhardt, Jimi Hendrix, Bert Jansch, Tom Waits, Captain Beefheart, Joni Mitchell, Muddy Waters, John Lee Hooker, Elvis Presley (Sun period), Hank Williams (I), Miles Davis, Buddy Guy, Blind Willie Johnson, Diblo Dibale ....

...you get the picture ;) (not a lot of rock in there...)

[JonR]

JonR, you have really got some fans here!

How about letting us hear your music?I have 3 old tracks on soundclick. They're some 2 years old now, but I think they're still there, let me check...
...yup here it is...
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_music.cfm?bandID=564951
They're all improvisations on acoustic - stuff off the top of my head at time of recording, but (of course) based on various habits of playing picked up over the years.
Lots of mistakes, but I quite like that "touched by human hand" effect... ;)

[Crossroads]

Ahh...very nice :) . Well there ya go ;) .

Ian.

[dmsstudios]

I have 3 old tracks on soundclick. They're some 2 years old now, but I think they're still there, let me check...
...yup here it is...
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_music.cfm?bandID=564951
They're all improvisations on acoustic - stuff off the top of my head at time of recording, but (of course) based on various habits of playing picked up over the years.
Lots of mistakes, but I quite like that "touched by human hand" effect... ;)

Excellent tracks, JonR! I'm glad you finally posted something of yours. You have a wicked right hand. Hopefully I'll get there someday...

[dublshot]

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_music.cfm?bandID=564951
They're all improvisations on acoustic - stuff off the top of my head at time of recording, but (of course) based on various habits of playing picked up over the years.
Lots of mistakes, but I quite like that "touched by human hand" effect... ;)

I Enjoyed listening to all three! If there were any mistakes, I didn’t notice them. Besides, small mistakes add to the appeal of live acoustic recordings, IMO.

Of course I know what you mean about the effect the guitar has. The enjoyment of playing and hearing live guitar is always more than the enjoyment of just listening to a CD. Personally, I miss my connection with my guitar, and with an audience. I strained my hand one night -feeling nervous was probably the cause. Now whenever I play, it will start to cramp up before long. After more than 30 years of playing, all it took was that one event.

I can still be creative, with my midi/chord program, so all is well. Still, it’s a different kind of connection using generative tools on the computer - no physical/demonstrative involvement …. , no live audience. BUT, you get to make a lot of artistic choices using tools that you just click on.

On the other hand, maybe use it to compose for band instruments (channel per instrument) and call yourself ‘The Arpeggiators‘!:p I know - 'no thanks'!

[giggedy]

And then there's the other modes - 32 of them where you don't change the root or 5th.