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leegordo
08-07-2008, 02:20 PM
Hi leegordo here , while following a post re' modes, where the bulk of the comments were generally in favour of Modal stuff, what amazed me most was the length some of our members have gone into the study and use of Modes.
What struck me most was the fact that these guys have superior brain power to my own--I have been an expert at chords and harmony tor over 70 yrs- but, if MY studies had been half as difficult as studying Modes and their uses, then I would have never learned about harmonies Or chords. these guys not only seem to know their Modes, but they also seem to have a good knowlege of Chords
I mean, What gets me puzzled is which came first, and why choose to study two entirely different genre's of music? However I still say that modern day harmony was evolved as a more simple and more comprehensive method of learning harmonies and chords than the more difficult and less comprehensive study of modes That's why modes became outmoded- pardon the pun!!
leegordo

Obivion
08-07-2008, 03:32 PM
First of all, I think you are confusing the counterpoint used in JS Bach's Fugues and other classical composition with modes.

The interest in modes began with the release of Miles Davis' "Kind of Blue" in 1959 in which he had grown tired of the chordal system and wished to approach music from a different direction, based on Russells system of 1953.

The idea is not that modes are a far more efficient system, or a substitution for knowing basic chordal theory, Miles probably knew more of that than most people around here. But it offered a different way of visualizing the relationship between the melody and the backing, and took the focus away from the ridiculously complex chords of 40s bebop and focused instead on the melody.

I agree, modes are perhaps over emphasised in importance and it's sad to see a young guitarist thinking they are playing modally simply by shifting their hand position, but if used properly, they can be useful for making music more interesting.

JL_Shredder
08-07-2008, 06:51 PM
Hi leegordo here , while following a post re' modes, where the bulk of the comments were generally in favour of Modal stuff, what amazed me most was the length some of our members have gone into the study and use of Modes.
What struck me most was the fact that these guys have superior brain power to my own--I have been an expert at chords and harmony tor over 70 yrs- but, if MY studies had been half as difficult as studying Modes and their uses, then I would have never learned about harmonies Or chords. these guys not only seem to know their Modes, but they also seem to have a good knowlege of Chords
I mean, What gets me puzzled is which came first, and why choose to study two entirely different genre's of music? However I still say that modern day harmony was evolved as a more simple and more comprehensive method of learning harmonies and chords than the more difficult and less comprehensive study of modes That's why modes became outmoded- pardon the pun!!
leegordo

Well, being 16, I'd say I'm one of the "younger" musicians, and I agree that a lot of the people in my generation are distorting their own studies by focusing on 1 aspect such as modes far more than the others. It's all fundamental and all part of the same picture. The thing with modes is that they are another way to expand your pallette because each is unique and special, and they present endless possibilities, as do chords, interval recognition, and even single notes have their own distinct ring. The problem is that these people are focusing on modes almost exclusively and throwing chords to the wayside. They've got all this knowledge of modes, but when it comes to chords, they're stumped. And vice-versa, there are people who spend all their time working with chords and they never touch on modes, so while they may have some good chord changes in a piece of music, they don't have the slightest idea on how to highlight that with a melody.

Even with melodies, chords are fundamental though. I find that the best sounding melodies are built around chords even if the chord itself is never played or arpeggiated. Yet these melodies can still apply the feeling of a chord without ever actually playing them.

Los_Boleros
08-08-2008, 02:21 PM
Hey Leegorgo,

Yes Miles Davis is the first name that comes to mind when we think of modal music but modes have been around for hundreds of years.

I started a very contravertial thread a few years bask that started a lot of discussion about modes.

I suggest a system of using modes on a chord by chord basis as a tool for totally learning chord harmony. I am not into modal music myself but I use this chord by chord modal thinking and all my students that have devoted a little time to learning it have completely blossomed into better musicians.

Take a look at it and try the excercises.

http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6728&highlight=modes+hard

jimc8p
08-08-2008, 04:23 PM
I suggest a system of using modes on a chord by chord basis as a tool for totally learning chord harmony.
I understand the use of that kind of tool, but I also see the huge potential for confusion. Chord harmony is one thing, but modes are for the most part another. It seems like pairing key harmony and modes is the most typical recipe for confusion on these forums!

Los_Boleros
08-08-2008, 11:52 PM
Actually not, modes and chord harmony have alot to do with each other. The more in depth you become familiar with chord scales, the easier chord harmony can become. Modes are chord scales.

When I am playing and improvising i think of modes by the roman numeral associated with the chord being played. Instead of Aolean I think i for a minir key and vi for a major key. Instead of dorian, I think iv for a minor key and ii for a major key.

Either way when a given chord is being played, I think its not enough to just know the notes of the chord but how all the notes of the scale relate to the chord.

You dont have to be a genious to be able to train your brain to think this way but with practice and mental excercises you could be on your way to never getting lost in a solo.

Chim_Chim
08-09-2008, 12:59 AM
This reminds me of why I hate talking to guitarists,lol.

Why does everything with online guitarists have to be either this way or that way?

Why not do both?

Why not do both, and then some?

Why are guitarists so narrow-minded?

Do whatever it takes in order for YOU to be able to express yourself the way in which you want to express yourself, and then let others do the same.

If you have something against modes then that is just like someone who comes in and has something against the blues. Just keep it to yourself. Do your thing and let others do theirs. Or strive for more diversity and a broader knowledge and understanding as a common ground. But don't preach your narrow crap. I'm getting a little tired of that bag from guitarists.

Modes came back from being outMODEd quite a long while ago and they've been with us ever since. Like them or not they are a part of the modern musical language and of modern musical diversity.

Creativity should be a broad gig, not a narrow one.

Let people do their own thing creatively and see what pans out. But don't tell them or lecture them to not learn or not experiment. Let them learn and experiment as much as they want. Maybe if people have more knowledge and broader tastes then there just might be a chance that they will actually create something really interesting and original instead of being just another narrow-minded hack.

I really mean no offense, and if you are not a guitarist then I do apologize.

It's just that I would just like to see more experimentation leading to a better and more diversified music scene by people who take music seriously enough to appreciate a broad spectrum of genres, but not being so wacky as to be extremists or avant garde or weird or mired in controversy. Music should be broad but palatable. It should be pleasing to hear and it shouldn't just PANDER to one particular segment of society's particular fetish only all the time. Atleast mix things up a little bit so as to not be a panderer. Music stopped being music at some point and now it's just fans with sick fetishes and musicians pandering too hard to one particular crowd.

Los_Boleros
08-09-2008, 04:48 AM
Why are guitarists so narrow-minded?...........................

If you have something against modes then that is just like someone who comes in and has something against the blues. Just keep it to yourself. Do your thing and let others do theirs. Or strive for more diversity and a broader knowledge and understanding as a common ground. But don't preach your narrow crap. I'm getting a little tired of that bag from guitarists. .....................
Creativity should be a broad gig, not a narrow one............................

Let people do their own thing creatively and see what pans out. But don't tell them or lecture them to not learn or not experiment. Let them learn and experiment as much as they want. Maybe if people have more knowledge and broader tastes then there just might be a chance that they will actually create something really interesting and original instead of being just another narrow-minded hack.

.

Hey Chim Chim, wtf? Why do you have to be so offensive? this is a place to share knowledge, not vent your frustrations. Next time why dont you try posting something that we can learn from and not a bunch of whacky accusations.

Chim_Chim
08-09-2008, 07:02 AM
Hey Chim Chim, wtf? Why do you have to be so offensive? this is a place to share knowledge, not vent your frustrations. Next time why dont you try posting something that we can learn from and not a bunch of whacky accusations.

You forgot to quote the part where I said:


I really mean no offense

I am sharing my knowledge. This site is all about sharing knowledge. Sharing knowledge about music,music theory,chords,MODES and scales and keys,and thoughts on music and so on. So saying that you don't like modes or don't like chords or don't like arpeggios or don't like blues scales or don't like the harmonic minor scale just seems like alot of "waaa waaa waaa."

I think I'll go search the internet for some really informative sites about scales and modes and chords and then tell the people there how much I dislike scales, chords and modes.

:o

leegordo
08-09-2008, 02:39 PM
OK here is some stuff you can learn from...No1 guitarists soon found out that they could'nt get quite a good few chords on their instuments,sooo, they cast round for help; However, they avoided K/boards like the plague for various reasons!
No2, because the K/board IS almost essential to studying music properly,and, the guitar guys dismissed K/boards out of hand, it follows that , not wishing to give up on chords, and harmonies, because they loved their guitars, they took the next easiest and cheap solution to their dilema, and started to read up about guitars, and, it did'nt take long to get the message that Modes were the answer to all their prayers!
So-O-O, they misguidedly took the trouble of learning as much as they could[-Alla Modes- and-- ofcourse, to justify their choice of genre' they decided to swear by Modal music to the exclusion of all other Genre's which included Chord based music.
But, Hold On!They then found out that they still had to learn about chords if they wanted to study harmony, and then they were consequently having to study two different Genre's of music, which, if done properly, is twice as difficult as studyimg chords would have been in the first place, and ignoring Modes altogether.
despite all the hype about Modes, nobody has proved that they are in any way essential to studying ALL the facets of practical music making.
leegordo

jimc8p
08-09-2008, 03:17 PM
Instead of Aolean I think i for a minir key and vi for a major key. Instead of dorian, I think iv for a minor key and ii for a major key.
As you say, there is no need to think of modes from within a key. They are automatic! IOW the single key scale is "altered" as the chords change. Thinking of chord tones and extensions is fair enough, but there's no real need to muddy it with a load of mode names (or even worse positions). It's over-exertion for more advanced players, and beginners tend to think this is what modes are about, (that they are playing modally and hearing modal effects in a key)..All that's really happening is either Ionian or Aeolian harmony.

Los_Boleros
08-09-2008, 03:46 PM
Lets say that a progression has two chords only.
They are Dm and G

These can be found in the C major scale.

If you chose to think C Ionian, C major, then the notes of the Dm chord are your 2,4,6 starting from the C. The notes of your G are 5,7,9.

If you say this whole think has a Dorian feel, as may people probably do, then the Dm is easy cause its notes are now 1,3,5 but the notes of G are 4,6,8.

If you can train your mind to switch between Dm and G and can think D dorian and G mixolidlian but with out changing your hand positions, then the only thing that changes is your reference point. During Dm your arpegio notes are 1,3,5 and your tention notes are 2,4,6. During the G your arpegion notes are 1,3,5 and your tention notes are 2,4,6.

Although this seems difficult to memorize and I know alot of you would rather just pick a scale and fly with it, this type of organisational thinking can really make a big difference in total knowledge of where you are are all times.

The problem is how do you begin learning it. I posted a few excersises in my post, "Modes why are they so hard?" but I think a good starting point is to try ato learn how to play the same like in each mode.

Its not that difficult to figure out and the more you do it on paper, the easier it gets to do in your head.

Lets say you have a riff you like to do over A Aolean that goes 5,1,2,3 or in actual notes E,A,B,C

You can learn that same riff in D Dorian. 5,1,2,3 would be A,D,E,F.

For the G mixolidian the 5,1,2,3 would be D,G,A,B.

You can learn it over all the modes and the real trick would be to learn them all within a single hand position. Then move to another hand position and learn them again.

Imagine doing this with all the kool riffs that you already know. :)