Article by Chris Juergensen on half-whole scale

[joeyd929]

I was reading the article on the IBM articles tab by Chris Juergensen. I didn't realize that you can play some altered chords up a minor third and still have a chord that is relatively in the same key. He uses a c altered chord to make his point.

Of course, the values change but that's a great article for jazz newbies like me because this whole chord substitution concept seems to go off in so many different directions that it becomes simplistically complex and complexly simplistic.

Sooo, let me get this straight, If the measure calls for lets say a C7#9, I can play a C7#9, Eb7#9, Gb7#9, A7#9 (enharmonic) and back to C7#9, or into a IV minor chord in the next measure, just as a form of interesting substitution.

Of course, it appears that the enharmonic values of each of these chords can, in theory, can each be viewed as a form of C altered dominant. Very cool, gotta play around with this idea...

I guess my question is this. If it is a given that you can do this with altered dominant chords, do I really need to think of the names of each chord as it relates to C dominant if I am just doing a quick improv of chords or would it be safe to say that in the heat of the moment of improvising, just go for it because you know it works.

Maybe that's what they mean by learn it and then forget what you learn. ?? Any1

[JonR]

I was reading the article on the IBM articles tab by Chris Juergensen. I didn't realize that you can play some altered chords up a minor third and still have a chord that is relatively in the same key. He uses a c altered chord to make his point.

Of course, the values change but that's a great article for jazz newbies like me because this whole chord substitution concept seems to go off in so many different directions that it becomes simplistically complex and complexly simplistic.

Sooo, let me get this straight, If the measure calls for lets say a C7#9, I can play a C7#9, Eb7#9, Gb7#9, A7#9 (enharmonic) and back to C7#9, or into a IV minor chord in the next measure, just as a form of interesting substitution.

Of course, it appears that the enharmonic values of each of these chords can, in theory, can each be viewed as a form of C altered dominant. Very cool, gotta play around with this idea...

I guess my question is this. If it is a given that you can do this with altered dominant chords, do I really need to think of the names of each chord as it relates to C dominant if I am just doing a quick improv of chords or would it be safe to say that in the heat of the moment of improvising, just go for it because you know it works. The connection here is the HW dim scale.
Personally I associate it with 7b9 chords, not 7#9, but it does work with the latter too. Here's a chart showing how the four 7#9 chord arps align with various steps of the same scale:
HALF-STEPS: | | | | | | | | | | | | |
C HW DIM: C Db . Eb E . F# G . A Bb . C
C7#9: 1 . . #9 3 . . 5 . . b7 . 1
Eb7#9: . b7 . 1 . . #9 3 . . 5 . .
F#/Gb7#9: . 5 . . b7 . 1 . . #9 3 . .
A7#9: #9 3 . . 5 . b7 . 1 . . #9You can see that each 7#9 chord highlights different scale notes, but they all come from the same scale

Compare with the 7b9 chart below. I'm also showing the four dim7 chords - each different names for the same chord - which also line up as subs:
HALF-STEPS: | | | | | | | | | | | | |
C HW DIM: C Db . Eb E . F# G . A Bb . C
C7b9: 1 b9 . . 3 . . 5 . . b7 . 1
Eb7b9: . b7 . 1 b9 . . 3 . . 5 . .
F#/Gb7b9: . 5 . . b7 . 1 b9 . . 3 . .
A7b9: . 3 . . 5 . b7 . 1 b9 . .

C#dim7: . 1 . . b3 . . b5 . . bb7 . .
Edim7: . bb7 . . 1 . . b3 . . b5 . .
Gdim7: . b5 . . bb7 . . 1 . . b3 . .
A#dim7: . b3 . . b5 . . bb7 . . 1 . .You can see in this case each 7b9 is almost identical, each an inversion of the others (except for the root in each case).

IOW, the four 7b9s act as true subs for each other (almost identical), while the 7#9s are not so much subs as alternative harmonisations of the scale.

The useful link to remember, btw, is the derivation of both 7b9 and dim7 chords from the harmonic minor scale. In this case (C7b9) we need F harmonic minor:
HALF-STEPS: | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
F harmonic minor: F . G Ab . Bb . C Db . . E F . G Ab . Bb . C Db
C7b9 (V): 1 . . . 3 . . 5 . . 7 . . b9
Edim7 (vii): 1 . . b3 . . b5 . . bb7So the vii chord (Edim7) is a rootless version of the V7b9 chord (C7b9).
Both resolve to Fm.

But because Edim7 is a symmetrical chord - any note can be the root - it can stand for three other 7b9s (Eb7b9, F#7b9, A7b9).
The logical extension of that is to look for a scale that will cover all of them - rather than switching harmonic minors each time. Step forward the HW dim scale! We get this by adding 4 notes, each a half-step below the dim7 arp notes (to represent the roots of the 4 dom7s).
This also contains the #9 of the dom7s (which the harmonic minor V mode doesn't).
The are only 3 different dim7 chords, each of which can have 4 names and resolve 4 ways.
The scale is also symmetrical (WHWHWHWH from the dim7 root or HWHWHWHW from the dom7 root), and the 7#9 chords are 4 alternative ways of harmonising the scale - and will also resolve 4 different ways.

But that resolution is important! The HW dim scale (and the 4 7#9s) won't work on just any dom7. The most conventional context would be from V of a minor key. (C7#9, Eb7#9, F#7#9, A7#9: any or all could - in theory - resolve to Fm, G#m, Bm or Dm.)
But it might work for the V of a major key too.
But it's NOT something you should do over (say) a IV7, in a blues or a dorian mode tune. (Not unless you want to sound a little c-r-a-a-a-zy! and you might... ;) )

The main to remember in all this messing around with chord scales is CONTEXT. I can't stress that enough. In a sense the whole edifice of jazz chord-scale theory is a vast distraction from what really matters. It is at least hugely controversial in many quarters. It's an artificial theory, developed out of an analysis of what certain jazz players did (or appeared to do) at certain times. But those players may not have thought in these terms at all. (Although Coltrane, for one, probably did.)
When you isolate chords from their context, it's easy to develop all kinds of fancy scale ideas built around the chord tones. But if they don't fit the context the chord is used in, they may well sound crap. (It would mostly be a matter of luck if they worked. So much for "theory" and "application" :rolleyes: .)

[joeyd929]

I often wondered why the dorian scale is not utilized for the 7#9 chord because the dorian scale has 1 b3 5 b7 and from an enharmonic standpoint, the b3 is the #9.

IMO the dorian scale is perfect for the 7#9 chord but it never seems to come up as an option in any music books or among the jazz community. Strange but true.

I realize it doesn't have the Major 3rd in the dorian scale but if you are playing in higher registers the b3 of the dorian can imply a #9 tonality. ??? :rolleyes:

[JonR]

I often wondered why the dorian scale is not utilized for the 7#9 chord because the dorian scale has 1 b3 5 b7 and from an enharmonic standpoint, the b3 is the #9.

IMO the dorian scale is perfect for the 7#9 chord but it never seems to come up as an option in any music books or among the jazz community. Strange but true.

I realize it doesn't have the Major 3rd in the dorian scale but if you are playing in higher registers the b3 of the dorian can imply a #9 tonality. ??? :rolleyes:Yes. But the major 3 of the chord is a crucial tone, and it would be perverse (to a jazzman) to employ a scale missing a crucial chord tone.
There is, however, the "bebop dorian" scale, which has a maj3 as the extra passing tone. ;) (Although it was supposedly designed for m7 chords, it makes a great blues scale on 7#9 chords.)
Another problem however (maybe not a biggie) is that dorian (and bebop dorian) has a 9th. A chord-scale with a #9 should not, ideally have a major 9th too. A b9, however, is OK.
Another problem (again maybe not a biggie) is that dorian (bebop or not) has an avoid note on a dom7 chord: the 4th. This is OK if the chord is a blues chord, but not if it's an altered V7.
("Context", see?...;) )

So remember the two kinds of 7#9:
The "Hendrix chord", used as a blues tonic chord, which has a perfect 5th;
and the jazz V chord, which usually has an altered 5th (even tho it's not mentioned in the symbol).

Jazz convention generally uses "7#9" - on a V chord - to indicate the altered scale (with HW dim as possible 2nd choice) and "7b9" to indicate HW dim (with altered as possible 2nd choice).
Jazz tunes do occasionally use "7#9" to indicate a blues tonic (eg Kenny Burrell's Chitlins Con Carne) - you need to check the context to know the difference.

And still - remember these are not hard and fast rules; just common practices. Anything can be made to work over anything: but it makes sense (IMO) to start with tried-and-tested strategies.

[joeyd929]

what I don't get is that if the altered chords have specific tones, like if you play a 7#5#9 chord and play the appropriate scale I get confused because the scale that is appropriate has sometimes altered tones in it other than the altered tones in the chord.

I guess that confuses me because it is so specific yet so vague, for example, as you said, the dorian scale doesn't really work because there is no third in the scale, because the 7#9 chord has a third. The reason I don't get this is because when you solo, you are not going to be playing the third all the time anyway.

Well, if you play an altered chord, you can apparently play a scale that has other altered tones in it that the altered chord being played does NOT contain. It's so specific on one side and so unspecific on the other. :confused:

I mean, if you are playing a 7#5#9 chord, why would you want to play a scale tone that has a b9 or something like that? Well, the good thing is I do have a decent grasp on the 7b9 without root and how it becomes a diminished chord.

I have a lot of work cut out for me so I'm gonna just keep working out of the real book. I think it is the right path to get a better understnding of this information because it is all structured to be used in the context of songs.

I like all kinds of jazz but the classic stuff from Charlie Christian up through Pat Metheny.

[joeyd929]

The useful link to remember, btw, is the derivation of both 7b9 and dim7 chords from the harmonic minor scale. In this case (C7b9) we need F harmonic minor:
Code:
HALF-STEPS: | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
F harmonic minor: F . G Ab . Bb . C Db . . E F . G Ab . Bb . C Db
C7b9 (V): 1 . . . 3 . . 5 . . 7 . . b9
Edim7 (vii): 1 . . b3 . . b5 . . bb7

So the vii chord (Edim7) is a rootless version of the V7b9 chord (C7b9).
Both resolve to Fm.

But because Edim7 is a symmetrical chord - any note can be the root - it can stand for three other 7b9s (Eb7b9, F#7b9, A7b9).
The logical extension of that is to look for a scale that will cover all of them - rather than switching harmonic minors each time. Step forward the HW dim scale! We get this by adding 4 notes, each a half-step below the dim7 arp notes (to represent the roots of the 4 dom7s).
This also contains the #9 of the dom7s (which the harmonic minor V mode doesn't).
The are only 3 different dim7 chords, each of which can have 4 names and resolve 4 ways.
The scale is also symmetrical (WHWHWHWH from the dim7 root or HWHWHWHW from the dom7 root), and the 7#9 chords are 4 alternative ways of harmonising the scale - and will also resolve 4 different ways.

Thanks for the help, it's alot of stuff to take in but Im gonna try and focus in on this harmonic minor aspect for a while. Like the jazz players say, it's a whole different bag. Lol.... :cool:

[Jed]

what I don't get is that if the altered chords have specific tones, like if you play a 7#5#9 chord and play the appropriate scale I get confused because the scale that is appropriate has sometimes altered tones in it other than the altered tones in the chord.

There are fewer rules about these things than you might think. It's entirely possible to work solutions out to these questions out logically based on the notes diatonic to the key, the target chord / tonality, the notes of the chord and reasonable accomodations relative to the chord function.

It's only complicated until you sort out the system. The problem is that none of it makes sense until you down to the last 10% or so. You almost have to jump in with both feet and go for broke. Within a short period of time all sorts of stuff will makes sense. Just don't try to start with the complicated stuff. Learn how the diatonic sequence and chord functions work first - they are the basis upon which all other musical constructs are built and defined.

cheers,

[Jed]

Joe,

Think C major scale:
Now look at the V7 chord (a G7)
The notes are G B D F, but more importantly the chord tones are the 5, 7, 2 & 4 of the key.
In every major key the V7 chord is make up of these scale degrees of the key. This collection of scale degrees define the sound that we label "dominant" or "the dominant 7 chord". For a minute, forget the chord name, forget the key and think in terms of just the scale degrees.

What kind of 9th would the V7 chord have in the key of C major?
. . . . . . . What is that note's function in terms of scale degree of the C major scale?
What kind of 11th would the V7 chord have in the key of C major?
. . . . . . . What is that note's function in terms of scale degree of the C major scale?
What kind of 13th would the V7 chord have in the key of C major?
. . . . . . . What is that note's function in terms of scale degree of the C major scale?

What's true for the above over the V7 chord in the key of C - is true for the V7 chord of every major key (in terms of scale degrees vs extension types / quality). It's harder to see this stuff if we only think in terms of chord symbols. You have to dig into the actual note names so you can convert those notes names to chord and scale degrees in order to see the simple logic behind the kinds of scale choices you are asking about.

Now go through the same process for the key of C minor:

What kind of 9th would the V7 chord have in the key of C minor?
What kind of 11th would the V7 chord have in the key of C minor?
What kind of 13th would the V7 chord have in the key of C minor?

If you can work out the answers to these simple questions, you'll be much closer to understanding what you are looking for. Later you can workout this same information to the various secondary dominants in both major and minor keys. Later still the various subV7's. By the time you've done this relatively small amount of work you'll know most of what there is to know about dominant chords altered and unaltered alike. I promise you, it's not rocket science and it's not some kind of dark art. Pure logic will get you through this.

cheers,

[JonR]

what I don't get is that if the altered chords have specific tones, like if you play a 7#5#9 chord and play the appropriate scale I get confused because the scale that is appropriate has sometimes altered tones in it other than the altered tones in the chord.Every scale has tones that are not in the chord.;)
All the notes in the altered scale, however - unlike some other scales - will work as chord tones.
An altered dom7 is not a fixed entity. If the chart says 7#5#9, you could play 7b5b9, it probably would work just as well. Often the chart only says "7alt" and leaves you to decide which 5th (b or #) and which 9th (b or #) you want.
In a sense, the scale is simply a list of all the potential chord tones.
I guess that confuses me because it is so specific yet so vague, for example, as you said, the dorian scale doesn't really work because there is no third in the scale, because the 7#9 chord has a third. The reason I don't get this is because when you solo, you are not going to be playing the third all the time anyway.No, but it's good to have the 3rd as a reference point.
You don't have to play it in a solo phrase, but often it's a significant difference from the chords either side - eg, it's the leading tone of the key (if the chord is a V). As such, it ought to be in any scale (or set of notes) you choose.

I have a lot of work cut out for me so I'm gonna just keep working out of the real book. I think it is the right path to get a better understnding of this information because it is all structured to be used in the context of songs.
Absolutely. And Jed has excellent advice above too.

[joeyd929]

I feel like all the time I have spent studying theory in the past is starting to make some sense. I am focusing on learning songs and going to try and just work on memorizing the melody. I must confess I haven't spent ANY time learning melodies these days.

Thanks again for all the great advice, I can go to this site and it's like taking lessons or something. I was just flipping through the real book and stumbled on "blue bossa" so I downloaded a youtube video cuz I really need to hear the arrangement and you can find many different arrangements on youtube. Anyway, check out this link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww5f5aAk9Vk&feature=related

This cat named Matt Otten does a nice improv and although I would like to play solo like that some day, my main interest is in the chord rhythm style he is playing to comp behind the solo. Well now that I have the music I cn play around with it.

I can't sit too long on one tune, I get bored #hitless if I do that so I jump around but I gotta start learning the melody I guess in more than one place on the guitar.

Anyway, check out the link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww5f5aAk9Vk&feature=related

[JonR]

I feel like all the time I have spent studying theory in the past is starting to make some sense. I am focusing on learning songs and going to try and just work on memorizing the melody. I must confess I haven't spent ANY time learning melodies these days.

Thanks again for all the great advice, I can go to this site and it's like taking lessons or something. I was just flipping through the real book and stumbled on "blue bossa" so I downloaded a youtube video cuz I really need to hear the arrangement and you can find many different arrangements on youtube. Anyway, check out this link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww5f5aAk9Vk&feature=related

This cat named Matt Otten does a nice improv and although I would like to play solo like that some day, my main interest is in the chord rhythm style he is playing to comp behind the solo. Well now that I have the music I cn play around with it.Blue Bossa is a very popular beginner tune. Nice short structure, easy melody, and some standard challenges: ii-V-I's in minor and major key. (Nice modulation in the middle too.)

That is a good solo - maybe just a little too "scale-y" for my taste, and maybe too mellow too - but parts of it are really nice. Mainly I can hear that he is targeting chord tones. Most of the time he hits a chord tone on beat 1 on the chord (perhaps in the middle of a line), then goes off on a line towards a chord tone on the next chord. That conveys a sense of logic to the lines, even when they are just runs of 8th notes.
He also uses space well, and good rhythmic tricks here and there. Good variety of phrase length, and varying where he starts and ends phrases. And a couple of nice bluesy licks thrown in to change the mood a touch.
Lots to learn from!
(youtube is a fantastic resource! chaotic maybe, but plenty of nuggets among the dross.)

As he says, this is faster than the tune is usually played - commonly it's almost half this tempo (bossa feel).

[joeyd929]

OK so I have been experimenting with the half-whole and whole-half scale.

Please correct me if I got this part incorrect cuz I am dyslexic, which causes even more confusion for me.

OK, 7#9 chords would utilize the half-whole scale: From C:
C Db Eb E Gb G A Bb C I used all flats to keep it simple here..

And for diminished 7th chords use the whole-half.
C D Eb F Gb Ab A B C

Quite honestly, the half whole clearly sounds better for diminished to me but IMO both scales sound good over the 7#9 but I want to try and play what would be considered "normal".. normal for jazz I guess.

So half-whole for 7#9 (and other altered chords)
and whole-half for dim 7.

I know there is more to it than this but for the most part I hope I got this right. ? I mean, the half-whole DOES have the third in it for altered chords and that makes it more practical for #9 chords......

[JonR]

OK so I have been experimenting with the half-whole and whole-half scale.

Please correct me if I got this part incorrect cuz I am dyslexic, which causes even more confusion for me.

OK, 7#9 chords would utilize the half-whole scale: From C:
C Db Eb E Gb G A Bb C I used all flats to keep it simple here..Yes. 7#9 chords can use the HW dim, but are more often associated with the altered scale (with b5 and #5). Although "7#9" doesn't mention an altered 5th, most jazz players would feel free to add one.
"7b9" is the more conventional indication for the HW dim (even tho altered would also fit that!).
And for diminished 7th chords use the whole-half.
C D Eb F Gb Ab A B CYes.

Quite honestly, the half whole clearly sounds better for diminished to meWhen I first started looking at dim scales, I thought either HW dim or WH dim could work over a dim7. Why not?
But the more I used them, the more the WH dim made sense and sounded better. You can add higher chord extensions to a dim7, a whole step above any note. It doesn't sound so good to add notes a half-step above.
I just think of it as the dim7 arp, plus a dim7 arp a half-step below. A dim7 arp a half-step above (which is what HW dim gives you) sounds quite different, and not "jazzy" in the conventional sense.
It also doesn't align so well with the normal usage of dim7 chords.

The best way to remember the link is (again) with 7b9 chords:

G7b9 = G B D F Ab
Bdim7 = B D F Ab
Both chords take the same scale.
G HW dim = G Ab A# B C# D E F
B WH dim = B C# D E F G Ab A#

Both chord-scales resolve to Cm or Cmaj. *

If you used B HW dim on Bdim7, you'd lose the association with G7b9. The pointer is the G note, which is not in B HW dim.
And (OTOH) G WH dim misses a lot of chord tones of G7b9.

but IMO both scales sound good over the 7#9 but I want to try and play what would be considered "normal".. normal for jazz I guess.

So half-whole for 7#9 (and other altered chords)
and whole-half for dim 7.

I know there is more to it than this but for the most part I hope I got this right. ? I mean, the half-whole DOES have the third in it for altered chords and that makes it more practical for #9 chords......Like I say, think of altered scale for 7#9 chords.
For the purposes of practice, and seeing how the dim scales work, use them against 7#9s if you want. But a 7#9 in a jazz lead sheet will normally be suggesting the altered scale. (Unless it's a tonic, in which case blues scale, or dorian bebop.)


* Opponents of chord scale theory can simply say G7b9 is V and Bdim7 is vii of C harmonic minor. So use the C harmonic minor scale, it will fit both chords and be diatonic to the home key.
I have a lot of sympathy with this view, if only because it's simpler.
The idea behind the use of the dim scale is that it has no "avoid notes". The context of the chord is ignored, IOW, and the sound of each scale note against the chord is what decides it.

What rules both viewpoints is MELODY. Don't focus on scales to the point of forgetting how the chords move and resolve, and how melodic lines flow across the chord tones, not just sit against them.

[joeyd929]

I think I have stumbled on a key element that will help me remember where I am regarding the fretboard after spending time with the half whole and whole half scales...I am a bit Dyslexic so the hw and wh scales work better for me because they are symmetrical

I remember a comment about some players focusing on chord tones to start their improv so I am working out my own method for remembering this idea. I want to remember chord tones without being tied to a shape or pattern...

It seems that good jazz players can pick up a solo line from where ever they are and the less "reference points" you have the less likely you are to get lost. I personally get stuck in one position by remembering reference points although they are essential for the most part.

Maybe it doesn't make sense to anyone but me but here is how I plan to remember the chord tones as well as the altered tones..but if I learn to use the scale itself as a reference point it makes more sense.

Considering all the educated listening and playing that goes on in jazz, I figure it's time to utilize some theory into practice without complicating it too much so here is what I have discovered about the scale .

Keep in mind my entire objective here is to be able to go anywhere on the neck and still NOT loose my place with the particular HW scale I am in.

C Db D# E F# G A Bb C

If I land on R #9 #11 13 It is 1/2 step up to the next note of this scale, or a whole step down to stay in the scale. Yes I'm using some pattern logic but remember I'm dyslexic and this works for me. It does require memorization of chord tones and altered notes..whatever..

So, if I am on the b9 3 5 b7 I move up a whole step or down a half step to stay in the scale.

I'm also taking chords and trying to see the pattern around the chords as well because it's always good to have the notes available at the chord.

Interesting thing I discovered, there are several different ways to execute the HW scale but the most symmetrical scale fingering I found works with a rotating pattern of 1 2 4 and 1 3 4 on each string.

Also noticed that there are only two of these patterns that make up the entire fretboard with this fingering... It just repeats the two scales all the way up the neck.

I think this is a good path for now because although it does not contain the #5, I can simply work that note in if I need it. I guess my objective is becoming more clear as I am typing. I think for me, the best way to learn ALL other scales is to base them off of where the notes sit in the HW and WH scale.

I say this because a higher percentage of jazz is based on the dominant 7 and it's altered notes. Switching to different scales here and there is what my goal is so I can use the appropriate scales where required but I need a serious permanent reference point anywhere on the fretboard and I think I have found a way to make this happen.

Hey its a start I guess

[JonR]

I think I have stumbled on a key element that will help me remember where I am regarding the fretboard after spending time with the half whole and whole half scales...I am a bit Dyslexic so the hw and wh scales work better for me because they are symmetrical

I remember a comment about some players focusing on chord tones to start their improv so I am working out my own method for remembering this idea. I want to remember chord tones without being tied to a shape or pattern...

It seems that good jazz players can pick up a solo line from where ever they are and the less "reference points" you have the less likely you are to get lost. I personally get stuck in one position by remembering reference points although they are essential for the most part.

Maybe it doesn't make sense to anyone but me but here is how I plan to remember the chord tones as well as the altered tones..but if I learn to use the scale itself as a reference point it makes more sense.

Considering all the educated listening and playing that goes on in jazz, I figure it's time to utilize some theory into practice without complicating it too much so here is what I have discovered about the scale .

Keep in mind my entire objective here is to be able to go anywhere on the neck and still NOT loose my place with the particular HW scale I am in.

C Db D# E F# G A Bb C

If I land on R #9 #11 13 It is 1/2 step up to the next note of this scale, or a whole step down to stay in the scale. Yes I'm using some pattern logic but remember I'm dyslexic and this works for me. It does require memorization of chord tones and altered notes..whatever..

So, if I am on the b9 3 5 b7 I move up a whole step or down a half step to stay in the scale.

I'm also taking chords and trying to see the pattern around the chords as well because it's always good to have the notes available at the chord.

Interesting thing I discovered, there are several different ways to execute the HW scale but the most symmetrical scale fingering I found works with a rotating pattern of 1 2 4 and 1 3 4 on each string.

Also noticed that there are only two of these patterns that make up the entire fretboard with this fingering... It just repeats the two scales all the way up the neck.

I think this is a good path for now because although it does not contain the #5, I can simply work that note in if I need it. I guess my objective is becoming more clear as I am typing. I think for me, the best way to learn ALL other scales is to base them off of where the notes sit in the HW and WH scale.

I say this because a higher percentage of jazz is based on the dominant 7 and it's altered notes. Switching to different scales here and there is what my goal is so I can use the appropriate scales where required but I need a serious permanent reference point anywhere on the fretboard and I think I have found a way to make this happen.

Hey its a start I guessThose are all good ideas.
I know I've said it before, but the best reference points are chord tones. So this means learning ALL your arpeggios of ALL the chords you know. This is a more important exercise (IMO) than learning scale patterns and positions.
Knowing the chord shapes should be easy enough. In the CAGED system there are 5 for every major chord (and it's extended versions); 3 for minors; 2 or 3 for dim7 and half-dim. Arpeggios add 2 or 3 notes to each of those shapes (on the same string as a chord tone in the shape). And they all link and overlap up the neck, of course.
The point about knowing chord tones is that they peg out (as it were) your route through a tune, like a join-the-dots drawing. If you know your chord tones, you don't need scale patterns. (Working from chord tones sounds more musical than working with scales.)
Chord shapes and scale patterns are both "boxes" of a kind (ways of breaking up the fretboard into manageable chunks). But chord shapes have musical meaning and structure; scale patterns don't.

OK, you are already doing this with 7b9, 7#9 and dim7 chords! That's an important chunk of jazz harmony - maybe a 5th or 6th (or less) of what you need.
Remember there are 3 other basic kinds of dom7, let alone the other chord types: 7alt (altered scale), 7#11 (lydian dominant), 13, 9 and 7sus (mixolydian). If the chord is V, you can often pick any of these you like - but context (and notes in other chords!) will guide you:
DON'T look at a dom7 and say "hmm which scale shall I use?". Say "what's its function there? what key is it in? what's the melody doing?"
Thinking in scales is TOO COMPLICATED :) . Jazz musicians may know their scales, but they rarely think in them. They think melody, rhythm and chord tones/extensions.

You can actually apply your "half-step below" thinking to any chord type, in fact. Those notes don't all belong to a suitable scale, but they act as "chromatic approach notes", or "chromatic neighbour tones". IOW, if you want a quick, quirky, jazzy "outside" effect (without thinking scales at all ;) ), play a chord arpeggio interspersed with notes a fret below. Just make sure you end phrases with chord tones.

[Jed]

DON'T look at a dom7 and say "hmm which scale shall I use?". Say "what's its function there? what key is it in? what's the melody doing?" Thinking in scales is TOO COMPLICATED :) . Jazz musicians may know their scales, but they rarely think in them. They think melody, rhythm and chord tones/extensions.

+1, cheers

[joeyd929]

I know I've said it before, but the best reference points are chord tones. So this means learning ALL your arpeggios of ALL the chords you know. This is a more important exercise (IMO) than learning scale patterns and positions.

That's what I figured, if I can just focus on recognizing chord tones for now, I should be able to navigate up and down the half-whole scale where ever I start once I get these memorized.

Also what's cool is to change to the whole half I guess I can just move everything up a half step and play the same scale pattern, i believe that would put me into a whole half if I need it. Gotta research that a little more though but i think it would work

[joeyd929]

Just so I'm on the same page here. When you say "Chord tones", are you referring to the triad, quartal chord, or any of the "chord tones" be they altered, or whatever? I assume any of the altered notes would be considered a chord tone.

Just wanted to make sure cuz chord tone could be just the triad.

[All_¥our_Bass]

He means any of the chord tones, altered or not.
Although the root, third, fifth (and arguably seventh) of the chord are the most essential ones.

[JonR]

^ What he said ;)
3rd and 7th are most essential ("guide tones"), followed by root, then 5th.
If the 5th is altered, it's more important than the root (will likely lead to the root, 3rd or 9th of the next chord).
But you can count any extensions mentioned in the symbol (b9, #9, #11, b13, 13) as chord tones for this purpose, tho they are secondary.
Of course, that ultimately includes all the notes of the scale... ;)

[Jed]

These, of course, are things one would "know" if they set their sights to learn the foundation upon which such things are based. If it's worth asking about repeatedly, then it's worth studying. Go to the foundation, go to the basics. Get the basic sounds into your ears and their explanations into your head. Then you can explore how, where and when to break the "rules".

The place to learn about dominant chords is not with their altered versions.

Edit: I would say that the 3rd, 5th & b7th of a dominant chord are by far the most important functional "features" - since they define the antithesis of the tonic to follow. If you want to understand dominants, you'll have to understand that sentence - a thousand different ways.

[joeyd929]

You can actually apply your "half-step below" thinking to any chord type, in fact. Those notes don't all belong to a suitable scale, but they act as "chromatic approach notes", or "chromatic neighbour tones". IOW, if you want a quick, quirky, jazzy "outside" effect (without thinking scales at all ;) ), play a chord arpeggio interspersed with notes a fret below. Just make sure you end phrases with chord tones.

Ahhh, as long as it resolves to a chord tone, I see. so are you saying instead of sliding into a chord a half step from below, instead, play the arpeggio for the chord a half step below and then slide up into a note from the target chord that would would normally slide into. Like if the next chord was Em7, play an Ebm7 arpeggio and simply slide up a half step into an Em7 chord tone. I think this is what you mean, just want to be sure, it sounds cool.

[joeyd929]

I got to thinking how the diminished chord is really a 7b9 without a root, or something like that well I was wondering if this works or not. I believe this would be a minor II V but I'm not sure it that's the correct term. I played the Em7b5 at the 7th fret and was looking for another way to play the A7b9 chord other than the fingering I already knew. (My foolish heart is the tune) Em7b5 to A7b9.

So I realized if I play Em7b5 and then for the A7b9 chord I can just switch to Edim7, I noticed it's the same notes as the A7b9 without the root.

Is this acceptable, I mean it works and the fluid motion of the chord tones and the changes are much smoother. I guess as long as a bass player has the root covered for A this should work.

I also noticed if I play the diminished chord from C# it implies the third of A a little more clearly, I love the dim chord..

So Em7b5 to A7b9 I am using Em7b5 to Edim7 instead. Theoretical logic tells me this would work but my question is would a jazz player do this?

[JonR]

I got to thinking how the diminished chord is really a 7b9 without a root, or something like that well I was wondering if this works or not. I believe this would be a minor II V but I'm not sure it that's the correct term. I played the Em7b5 at the 7th fret and was looking for another way to play the A7b9 chord other than the fingering I already knew. (My foolish heart is the tune) Em7b5 to A7b9.

So I realized if I play Em7b5 and then for the A7b9 chord I can just switch to Edim7, I noticed it's the same notes as the A7b9 without the root.Er, joey, do you actually read my answers to your posts?? ;)
Check back on post #13 above...

[joeyd929]

Yes I read the posts, I guess the point of my question may have been a little foggy. I do get the whole deal with dim7 and 7b9 is same without the root, all I was asking is about the ii V progression so I will assume using E diminished is cool for A7b9. I only ask because with jazz there are some things that work in theory but experienced players would never do them. (like playing an altered scale with no third for 7#9)

I really do appreciate all the great knowledge you all share freely with this IBM forum. I'm a little thick headed when it comes to some of this stuff. Sometimes I think I get it and then something new comes up and I don't always do a good job on relating it to something I have already learned.

But seriously, thanks very much cuz this is stuff I would have to pay a teacher to learn about so it is greatly appreciated. ;)

In my younger days I had lots of sheet music for jazz tunes but in the early days of my guitar based life, I was introduced to chord substitution but only learned the chord forms to follow a chart.

The whole b5 sub was explained to me but at that time only in simplest terms. G 7 can be replaced with Db 7. That was all I was told and back then didn't get the tri-tone. Since then, as I stated earlier in another post, understanding the tri-tone made all the difference for me.

This time I am attempting to to it the right way and without the information you guys have shared I don't think I would be anywhere near my goal. Yes, I probably knw 1/5 of what I need to know but it's a start.

It is interesting that the key chord tones are the third and seventh. They have a distinct sound. Im gonna spend some time doing ear training with intervals. I did that a while back and it seems to help recognize tones.

It's funny how the pitch of the note doesn't change but when you change the root it changes the tonality of the note's context.

Like if you listen to a E note while playing an A chord it sounds like a 5th but if you keep the E note droning and then play a Bb root, even though the E has not changed, it's amazing how the whole tonality changes cuz that E is now a b5.

One of my issues is that I have trouble recognizing these altered tones so some good ear training practice with single notes over a root bass note should help me.

I can spot Major thirds, minor thirds, perfect fifths no prob, or even minor 7 intervals, but when a b5 or #5, b9 is played I don't recognized the off color tonality so I need to practice this..

Thanks again all. :p

[JonR]

Yes I read the posts, I guess the point of my question may have been a little foggy. I do get the whole deal with dim7 and 7b9 is same without the root, all I was asking is about the ii V progression so I will assume using E diminished is cool for A7b9.Yes!

It's funny how the pitch of the note doesn't change but when you change the root it changes the tonality of the note's context.

Like if you listen to a E note while playing an A chord it sounds like a 5th but if you keep the E note droning and then play a Bb root, even though the E has not changed, it's amazing how the whole tonality changes cuz that E is now a b5.

One of my issues is that I have trouble recognizing these altered tones so some good ear training practice with single notes over a root bass note should help me.

I can spot Major thirds, minor thirds, perfect fifths no prob, or even minor 7 intervals, but when a b5 or #5, b9 is played I don't recognized the off color tonality so I need to practice this..
Right. Those things are a lot harder.
- except the "off color" quality itself should be easy to spot. Eg, I find it easy to spot an altered note - it just sounds "out" somehow - but not always which altered note it is! :(

Can you identify chord types? (not just intervals) In many ways I find those easier than intervals on their own. The 6 basic types of 7th are what matter:
maj7
min7
dom7 (no alterations)
m7b5 (half-dim)
dim7
m(maj7) (tonic minor)

Altered dom7s are a 7th type, I guess. (7b9 would be close to dim7 in sound, but 7#9 is more unusual, and comes in two kinds: blues tonic (with perfect 5th) and jazz V7 (with altered 5th).)

[joeyd929]

Can you identify chord types? (not just intervals) In many ways I find those easier than intervals on their own. The 6 basic types of 7th are what matter:
maj7
min7
dom7 (no alterations)
m7b5 (half-dim)
dim7
m(maj7) (tonic minor)

I can recognize most of these it gets kind of fuzzy for come chords. The minor 7b5 chord you play on the second fret that covers 4 strings..I have trouble distinguishing between that and a minor 6, or a 9th chord.

What I have found that helps is if I know the song arrangement, and know what the root bass note is supposed to be, this makes it easier to decipher.

I mean, like with a Bm7b5 if you change the root to G it becomes a G9th but I still hear 7b5 in my mind sometimes. for the most part I can recognize the basic chords.

[joeyd929]

Sometimes minor-major 7 chords sound like augmented chords for some reason, I think part of the minor-major 7 chord contains notes of an augmented scale

I dont have my guitar in front of me and I jus got off a long shift of work, cant think straight but all I know is aug sounds like min-maj7 sometimes.

:rolleyes:

[All_¥our_Bass]

Yeah a min-maj7 chord will sound kind of augmented because the 3,5, and 7 (ifp layed by themselves) will be an augmented hcord.

Example:
Amin-maj7 = A C E G#

C augmented chord = C E G#

[joeyd929]

Yeah a min-maj7 chord will sound kind of augmented because the 3,5, and 7 (ifp layed by themselves) will be an augmented hcord.

Example:
Amin-maj7 = A C E G#

C augmented chord = C E G#

Thats cool cuz if you hit a minor major 7 chord you can do a little augmented run a minor third up from root of the min-maj7 chord. Very cool. Just for a nice change up instead of using harmonic minor or whatever.....