Modes

[Batboy]

I need some info about modes. How they are constructed, formulas wathever you can tell me.

[Zatz]

Hi Batboy!

You could ask Guni to give you links to his articles which were published on Guitar4u. I like them very much because they are written with real music spirit and feeling. I hope he wouldn't mind it :) Plus I would also be glad to read them over again.

You could also check out these pdf articles by Joe Goldstein. I guess he's Berkelee man too. And you can trust these folks ;)

http://members.tripod.com/joey_goldstein/JGM/chap11.pdf

http://members.tripod.com/joey_goldstein/JGM/chap13.pdf

I guess it's free and hasn't been piratically distributed over the net.

Hope this helps.

Ultra mega best regards,
Andrew.

[Guni]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for ya comments Zatz. I've never seen this before but the links above don't work when linking form it remotely. So someone really has to put the url into the browser to get to the files directly (just to let ya know). I'll have a read through those articles. Thanks for that.

My articles that I wrote about scales are available for download here: http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=11

Have a look at chord scales 1 - 3.

laterz

Guni

[Schnautze]

Hello everybody...

I've been a few days out learning all the guni's articles and yes I learned a lot but my head is 100% fried so far...

I have a question:

I have done all the exercises (with A+ of course...) about modes and scales. I understand this stuff, I can find any mode for any Key with a pen and a sheet, but how do I apply all of this to the guitar?

Guni, you say in your article about improvisation that, we've to use the 3 step formula: chord tones, similar tensions and mode specific tension.

Right, ok. My first problem is I don't know my arpeggios... so I'm not able to get the first step, but I know all my major scales. The question is if we are playing A Aeolian for example, it is not the same than playing Do major but emphasising on the A notes and the tensions (if you want to)??

Because the notes are the same!! It is just a different approach and view of the fretboard but the same.

I really don't know how to think in all that amount of stuff while I am playing under Am7 vamp, I get completely blocked with the flow of information... With a pen it's easy, but to do this with the guitar for me is far to hard. How many times do you repeat all of this stuff I mean writing it down?

I think I know the answer... learn all your Arpeggios!! oh god....

Thanks for the advices.

Good luck!

[Guni]

Hi Schnautze,

I think I know the answer... learn all your Arpeggios!! oh god....

Yes, you pretty much answer your question yourself :D

Lemme first mention time!!! This is not something that you can learn overnight. The last thing I wanna achieve with my articles is that it leaves the reader with a feeling of being overwhelmed and frustrated.

This said, you could spend 5 years playing scales without ever thinking about chord tones or tensions and live a happy guitarist's life. That's how it was for me. But at some point you might ask yourself what you are actually playing or lets better say that you would like to play more consciously. Then taking apart scales is what you need to do.

For a long time I did exercises like the one below to break up the scale patterns.

Say Am 5th position.

Play Am7 chord
Play Am triad in this position
Play Am7 chord
Play Am7 arpeggio in this position
Play Am7 chord
Play Am Pentatonic in this position
Play Am7 chord
Play A Dorian
Play Am7 chord
Play A Aeolian
etc etc ...


Record an Am7 vamp.

On a daily basis improvise for 10 minutes using:

Am triad
Am7 arpeggio
Am Pentatonic
A Dorian
etc etc

Then use different keys or combine 2 minor chords, say Am and Dm.

Guni

[Schnautze]

Yep,

that sounds a good exercise, thanks. Yeah, I know what you mean, it will be a long way to put all that data in the brain and to make it useful, but that's the interesting thing of the guitar otherwise it would be too easy and less chalenging.

I'll keep working.

Cheers

[Guni]

Cool - feel free to ask anything anytime ....

I'm actually thinking of reworking the articles about chord scales so that theory and playing is 100% separated, as applying the learned theory onto the instruments is a different story.

.... but I'm still in the brainstorming process .....

... any feedback is very welcome :D ...

Laterz,

Guni

[Schnautze]

As I told you the articles are very good.
Some feedback to improve them a bit:

Triads and 7th chords:

_ The exercises are great and much more difficult than it looks (I am still only with the major triads!!:confused:) . As you did in scales would be great to have some real application of how to use triads. I am not experienced at all in Rock/Blues guitar playing, but I think Triads are commonly used in Rock (am I right?). Could you give us some examples? Power chords are basically triads aren't they? Some Jazz examples would be also great (Larry Carlton maybe).

Scales:

_ I have read all the articles and done the theory exercises but not the practical ones so I may be not very fair. However I feel a bit confused in the way you have to learn scales. When you're doing a solo do you really think in the notes you are and you are going to do? (because most of the time it goes to fast to think in anything) eg. the next chord is Dmin7 I am going to use this 13b to create some tension and then back to the arpeggio, or it's more kind of feeling/sound?

I learned a few years ago the major scales and I know the patterns, but when I improvise with them sometimes I think a little bit of what I am doing but most of the time I just let the fingers to find the notes I have in my head without any conciousness of what scale or mode I am. Depending on the jam, the mood and the amount of drinks... :D this works great or just all right.

So, I don't know how good is to know the shape or pattern in order to improvise properly, because sometimes when I just follow the pattern I fall into the "boring scale sound" and lack of creativity.

Arpeggios and Pentatonics.

Nothing to say. Maybe some examples as well, like Jimmy Page uses in this solo the E-W direction or this common Joe Pass lick is typical to link these 2 kinds of Arpeggios.

So I can see your pathway and development in Guitar theory through the years you've taken. All the articles are based to be for at least 4 years working regurlarly so the amount of information is really huge (but challenging :). Could you give us some logical steps to go through like:

learn pentatonics first of all, then major scales and then arpeggios, or no no the most basic thing are the triads master them before anything else... or take whatever you fancy and concentrate until you master it.... you know what I mean?

Cheers

[Guni]

phew - lots of good points in your post. Lemme see:

As you did in scales would be great to have some real application of how to use triads.yep, good point
I am not experienced at all in Rock/Blues guitar playing, but I think Triads are commonly used in Rock (am I right?). Could you give us some examples? Power chords are basically triads aren't they? Some Jazz examples would be also great (Larry Carlton maybe).Triads can be seen in 2 ways:
1) for writing songs: then, yes, I'd say they are widely used in pop, rock etc....

2) for improvisation. Then it's more into a jazz approach using upper structure triads etc ....

Power chords just include the Root and Fifth of a chord - so no third - thus they are no triads

I have something in mind to demonstrate some of Mr. Carlton's techniques.......

I have read all the articles and done the theory exercises but not the practical ones so I may be not very fair. However I feel a bit confused in the way you have to learn scales. When you're doing a solo do you really think in the notes you are and you are going to do? (because most of the time it goes to fast to think in anything) eg. the next chord is Dmin7 I am going to use this 13b to create some tension and then back to the arpeggio, or it's more kind of feeling/sound?What you are describing is a Jazz approach to improvisation, which is important if you have loads of chord changes going on.

Maybe this helps a bit:

Rock / Pop: most of the time you have one tonal center and you can play on top of this tonal center using the scale / pent / whatever. There's no real need for thinking in notes and depending on the situation I don't think either :D Or let's take a Blues - man I would not think about tensions or notes when playing a Blues - this is more about feel than anything else.

Jazz: loads of chord changes and it just doesn't sound right when playing without choosing the right notes (or the notes you want or know the notes that work ....)

Inbetween the above you could place Fusion, ie still lots of space for 'not thinking' and a few key / chord changes that will need your attention. learned a few years ago the major scales and I know the patterns, but when I improvise with them sometimes I think a little bit of what I am doing but most of the time I just let the fingers to find the notes I have in my head without any conciousness of what scale or mode I am. Depending on the jam, the mood and the amount of drinks... :D this works great or just all right.That's how it should be. Nothing wrong with that ......So, I don't know how good is to know the shape or pattern in order to improvise properly, because sometimes when I just follow the pattern I fall into the "boring scale sound" and lack of creativity.
Well, this can happen all the time, whether you just think in patterns or in single notes.

What I sometimes do is whenever I get into such a situation I need to push myself to break out of the 'safe-zone'. Then I tell myself that my b-string just broke. What can you come up with without the b-string?learn pentatonics first of all, then major scales and then arpeggios, or no no the most basic thing are the triads master them before anything else... or take whatever you fancy and concentrate until you master it.... you know what I mean?First of all don't forget the fun part. I mean it's no use to torture yourself with learning arpeggios if you don't apply them. If you like the style of Larry Carlton then you will need to get into arpeggios at some point.

if I would make a list for myself I'd come up with the following order for improvisation (that is really sujective):

Pentatonic
Scales
Arps
Triads

Guni

[The Bash]

The Part about having fun should be in big flashing neon letters :)
There’s such an overwhelming amount to learn, you’ll go nuts trying to learn it all.
It’s been over 10 years since college and I’m still learning/applying stuff that was crammed so far down my throat I didn’t know which end was up. Finally I said Hey, I’m getting worse instead of better. That wasn’t quite true but it sure felt like it. I had tons of new information I could barely use and the things that I was comfortable with were slipping. I was learning very basic classical guitar (that was a great mental experience). I went from not knowing jack to performing sum easy stuff for recital hour, but My Rock Chops were suffering etc.
So you really have to search for yourself find what defines you and work from there. When you wanna delve into something else real sum information in.
So don’t feel you gotta know it all or that it all has to make sense. Just ground yourself with what you know, apply it best you can. It’ll soon become second nature. Then throw sum more info on the fire and have another go. Bite what you can chew and most of all use it. If you don’t use it its really not that vital to your current situation.

As far as the pattern thing: use it. The guitar forms nice easy patterns. That’s an advantage.
The disadvantage comes when we overlook the notes.
Play scales as mindless shapes. Then play them naming the notes or focusing on chord tones etc.
Another great way to get out of Shape Land is practice all your scales on one string. Or two, or three.

[Schnautze]

Thanks for the advices folks...

I think you understand where I am positioned regarding the instrument. I have a "medium" knowledge of the guitar which sometimes is equal to nothing...I can play a bit of everything but I am not very good in anything....

I know my goal (at least!), and my goal is to be a brilliant Jazz guitar player + compostion in that style, so what I am trying to figure out is what do I need to become that?

And I really don't know!!

So the only Idea I've found is get Jazz Guitar books and learn as much theory as possible, get a lesson sometime, learn a song sometime and try to apply concepts in a real jam session which is by the way pretty hard to find. I don't know in the states but in Western-Europe you don't find easily a Jazz bass guitar (or even a jazz guitar player) to jam. Anyway it's very hard to know what do you need to play a style of music and it's even worse for composition.

I think I have a big lack regarding real Jazz "songs" (and that's the real "fun" part you mean folks) because I can play a very few standards. With the above mentioned, where can I get some "free" jazz standards in the Web? or a good fake book?

By the way what's "upper structure triads"?

What happens if you apply the Drop 2 and drop 3 concepts voicings to the triads? Is there anything interesting to discover there?

Have fun

Cheers

[szulc]

I think I have a big lack regarding real Jazz "songs" (and that's the real "fun" part you mean folks) because I can play a very few standards. With the above mentioned, where can I get some "free" jazz standards in the Web? or a good fake book?
There are thousands of freely available MIDIfiles of Jazz Standards on the Web also Consider getting Band in A Box Software it is like a backup band in a box.
By the way what's "upper structure triads"?
All seventh chords and above ( 9, 11,13) can be reduced to two or more superimposed triads.
Em7 (Notes: EGBD): EGB E Minor Triad ,GBD G Major Triad
The GBD triad would be considered the Upper Structure Triad in this case.
What happens if you apply the Drop 2 and drop 3 concepts voicings to the triads? Is there anything interesting to discover there?
Well lets see Drop 2 lets take C Major in root position (Close Voice) C E G to make this a drop 2 we would drop the E down 1 octave E _ C _ G this is just the Open Voice First Inversion Triad.
Drop 3 would just move the root down 1 octave (Not a True Open Voiced Triad).
The idea of Open Voice Triads, build chords on 6th intervals instead of 3rds.
Remember that a m6 is an inverted M3 and a m3 is an Inverted M6. So chords built on diatonic 6ths will be Open Voiced Triads.

[Schnautze]

Thanks Szulc!!

oK for the upper structure triads, but when do you use them?? (I mean in Jazz...) do you have an exercise or example?

I think the drop 2 and 3 for triads can be pretty interesting for guitar duets. Using the bass E for the ECG of your example it's quite simple to build up a bass line and then just play the corresponding triad while the other guitar player can improvise behind.

I learned a method a few months ago to make bass lines while chords. It's a bit hard to explain in an email, but it's not so complicated, eg:

Progression I-vi-ii-V-I in C major so

Cmaj7/ A-7/ D-7/ G7/ Cmaj7

The bass line could be (whatever actually): B-C-A#-A-C#-D-G#-G-B-C (starts again). Played on the 6th and 5th strings.

To play the chords with the bass line, play the bass line in the down beats and the chords in the up beats.... confusing??

B(down beat)-C(down beat)-Cmaj7chord (upbeat quick)-A#(db)-A(db)-A-7 chord (upbeat)....

The advanced players have probably a better example of what I am saying......

See u later.

[Bongo Boy]

Originally posted by Schnautze
where can I get some "free" jazz standards in the Web? or a good fake book?

A list of jazz standards has been compiled (with commentary) at http://www.guitarmain.com. You'll have to look carefully down the lefthand column of the home page (it says "The Top 10 Jazz Standards are Here")

You can use free software to search the web for MP3's (of any kind)--the software can be downloaded from http://www.winmx.com (it's a Windows application). It allows you to do interplanetary searches for anything you can type in--artist name, song title, etc. You'll want to use high-speed internet connections for this, though.

ALso, do a web search for Jazz Guitar Online--there's some useful information there as well.

[Schnautze]

I know Guitarmain.com it is actually the site I recommended in a thread 2 weeks ago, it's pretty good isn't?

In Guitarmain.com you can find a list of the 10 first standards to learn but the guy doesn't give the chart for all of them, only 2 or 3 actually.

And for http://www.winmx.com I don't have access to it because I am at work and they have some knid of restriction with mp3's sites so....

But thanks anyway.

Take it easy bongo boy