Stagnation thread.

[The Jan]

I've gotten into a pinch. I've learnt my basic theory, and I've never had technical problems.

I'm playing songs (most of my practice regime consists of just playing various technically difficult songs, mixed with calmer ones, and spending 15-20 minutes on a technical aspect I sense I'm lacking in that day), but it feels like I'm suffering technique-wise. I've been able to improvise and play arpeggios, scale runs, triplets, quintouplets etcetcetc... basically everything I wanted to for about a year now, without missing notes and getting my fingers more or less jammed.

Lately though, it feels like when I hit a certain speed, my fingers "lock up". It's never happened to me before, but they just slow down. They won't do what I normally instruct them to, and even really basic EASY stuff like the stereotypical 3 and 5-string major/minor/diminished arpeggio inversions suffer from my fingers feeling uncoordinated and slow now. For some weird reason, the newer stuff I've been working on works well, (fully internalizing the harmonic minor in all keys, all over the neck, internalizing the diminished scales and the whole-tone, "modal" arpeggios made up from the basic chord tones + the modal "flavour tone"). The older stuff I've been able to do for AGES though, seems to just... slow down, get choppy and messy. Even playing songs I've been playing for literally 3 years tends to go to puh-shiz.

Does anyone know what's going on? It might be fatigue, as I've had my summer vacation, and I've been playing a lot more than before. However, I do powerlifting, and a guitarist I know told me that he's met a lot of musicians over the years that got "stiffer" and slower hands because of excessive weightlifting. I do stretch my fingers and arms a lot though. I've been lifting for 5 years, and that's almost as long as I've been playing for too. I just started noticing this trend of slowness... :(
My hands don't really feel fatigued though, just slow.

Anyone? :(

[gersdal]

Are you playing these tunes as much as you used to do?

I guess progressing furter and getting into new tunes and stuff makes your fingers "forget" the older stuff a bit. Usually I find it reasonable easy to get my playing up to speed again, but it depends on the level of difficulty, time since I've been playing that tune etc etc.

I have no clue how weight lifting will effect your playing ;-)

[Blutwulf]

If I go too long without boring speed exercises, I get the same phenomenon. That is, when I am satisfied with my playing and no longer care about practice**, eventually the same problem kicks in.

It is because my right hand and left hand are out of synch. The left hand unconsciously slows down to the max speed of the right. You might have seen this phenomenon in a gig or jam session after 4 hours or so. Its effect is relative from person to person, of course. You press the strings harder with your fingers, your forearm gets fatigued because of this, and you want to blame your left hand.

In the early years of playing guitar, your right hand can outrun the left. After years of playing and concentration, your left can outrun the right unless you are one of these guys who care enough to constantly practice speed picking.


**Utter blasphemy on this board, I suspect.

[The Jan]

Hahah, yeah. The only picking practice I do, consists of a couple of songs that work pretty well as exercises:

( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6TR9MGGXIg&feature=related at around 3:00->)
( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uigrp4beDc )
( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iymwK5ZZN8 )

I've got more, but those are the ones I found on youtube.

I find it boring to practice *alternate picking in __ pattern mixed with ___ major 7 arpeggio inversion etcetcetc* for an hour, so I find musical contexts to play them in.

My hands aren't at all uncoordinated though, it's just that my left hand tends to slow down, even if I haven't been playing at all for a day or two. Might be over-exertion... I don't know :(

I've never had technical difficulties though (woot reference), but my fingers literally feel like mush right now.

[ChainsawGuitar]

lol I know I probably say this alot, but its the muscles you're using. I lift free weights, and as the muscles get bigger they get slower. You really need to be using the muscles in your hand for speed, not your forearm. Thats your problem I think. See my website for information on my guitar technique.

I hope this helps, because this sounds like exactly whats going on, your forearm muscles are slower now because they are bigger and more powerful.

[Blutwulf]

Since flexor and extensor muscles are in the forearm, what hand muscles do you suggest using for extending and flexing the fingers?

[ChainsawGuitar]

The intrinsic hand muscles. Interossei and Lumbricals etc... They are in the hand. Again, see my website, there's an article on carpal tunnel syndrome.

http://www.chainsawguitartuition.net/index_files/HandMechanics.html

[Blutwulf]

Those flex the metacarpal (Hell, I forget... metacarpaleophlangeal or somesuch) joint. Even at that, they do not move isolated.

One can practice and use them to roll a quarter across their knuckles at a bar like a magician, but if you use your fingertips when playing guitar, it is impossible to play without the extensors and flexors in the forearm. You cannot curl your fingers to let the tips touch the strings without using the flexors in the forearm.

Alas, I do not have a website, so you win the internets, and I must bow out, defeated.

[elmariachi]

your forearm muscles are slower now because they are bigger and more powerful.

Forgive me but surely that can't be definitively correct. If he has bigger muscles that would indicate that he has increased the total amount of type II muscle fibers in his muscles [acting ones anyway] and it is these fibers that are responsible for speed seeing as they are the "fast twitch fibers". Compare a sprinter to say a long distance runner. I agree that muscle tension however will lead to a decrease in flexibility and that will impair motion. But if you maintain your muscles correctly with adequate stretching and rest periods you don't have to sacrifice your speed. This of course depends on the nature of the exercise. Power lifting is obviously at the extreme end of weight lifting.

[ChainsawGuitar]

One can practice and use them to roll a quarter across their knuckles at a bar like a magician, but if you use your fingertips when playing guitar, it is impossible to play without the extensors and flexors in the forearm. You cannot curl your fingers to let the tips touch the strings without using the flexors in the forearm.


How often, when you play guitar, do you curl and uncurl your fingers between each note? No, your fingers stay curled and just move to fret each note- so the muscles that concern speed are the ones in the hand.


If he has bigger muscles that would indicate that he has increased the total amount of type II muscle fibers in his muscles


There are two factors, the actual mass of the muscle taking longer to act, and the larger muscles that he's building are being trained for strength, not speed. Strength and speed are two different things with muscles. I think this case is a good example of that :)

[The Jan]

More strength does equal a higher potential for speed though.

[elmariachi]

There are two factors, the actual mass of the muscle taking longer to act, and the larger muscles that he's building are being trained for strength, not speed. Strength and speed are two different things with muscles. I think this case is a good example of that :)

This is were things can get a bit convoluted because the application of the muscles is very different. I am aware of the difference between power-lifting and other forms of weight training. I am trying the high light that greater muscle mass does not = less speed. As far as reaction times that is a complicated matter. Starting strength [the ability for muscles fibers to react to stimuli] is balanced by explosive strength [the ability to continue accelleration] versus resistance. Resistance is the key here.

I always associate difficulties here with the associated tension caused by such lifting which impair mobility ans speed etc. As i said before powerlifing is the extreme end of this.

[ChainsawGuitar]

This is were things can get a bit convoluted because the application of the muscles is very different. I am aware of the difference between power-lifting and other forms of weight training. I am trying the high light that greater muscle mass does not = less speed. As far as reaction times that is a complicated matter. Starting strength [the ability for muscles fibers to react to stimuli] is balanced by explosive strength [the ability to continue accelleration] versus resistance. Resistance is the key here.

I always associate difficulties here with the associated tension caused by such lifting which impair mobility ans speed etc. As i said before powerlifing is the extreme end of this.

I think you have the right idea here but, as you say, reaction times are a complicated matter. Playing guitar isn't resistance training, and you dont need a huge amount of strength to play- more speed. I don't like to make things more complicated than they are, so thats why I'm saying that, in general, strength and speed are different things.

I guess in your equation there, playing guitar is more about explosive strength in your fingers (thats what you're using for speed), but they dont need a huge amount of starting strength. Freting a note, as actions go, doesn't really have much resistance.

Playing guitar uses different muscles to powerlifting anyway. What I'm suggesting is that you're trying to use the muscles of your forearm to play guitar- muscles that have been conditioned for powerlifting.

The correct muscles you need to work for guitar on are the ones in your hands. Think about finger independance- does powerlifting require that? Thats where the muscles of your hands come in- using the correct muscles will increase your finger independance (because the muscles live in your hand, right by each finger!).

Trust me, I've seen this before in my students. If your arm muscles are used to doing heavy lifting it will start to slow your guitar playing down. Try and focus on the muscles in between your fingers, rather than the ones that curl them.

I hope I'm actually helping here? Don't take it the wrong way, I'm just trying to give you honest advice.

[elmariachi]

The correct muscles you need to work for guitar on are the ones in your hands.

Sorry buddy i don't mean to argue with you but this is over-complicating things and is also untrue. I've heard you argument regarding intrinsic an and extrinsic muscles and it doesn't make sense. You don't mention the fact that these muscles are in most cases interconnected. That most of the extrinsic muscles are located in the fore-arm, not to mention the extensors and flexors. In fact the muscles you mention using only control very limited ranges of motion. I get it your argument is that this is the motion required. But this is also incorrect. Guitar playing requires the use of various types of motions which require extensive use of the entire musclature of the lower arm. Your theories arent based on a professional knowledge of how the anatomy of the hand works. Just because it says in a book this "muscle's main action is this" does not mean this is the only muscle required the perform the mechanic. Anatomy is far more complex that that. The truth is everything is connected. If you want to help students i suggest something like alexander technique which is already an established practice in conservatories around the world and focuses on "correct use" of muscles to minimize tension and use only the muscles required for the task. The latter focus is similar to what you are trying to achieve.





I hope I'm actually helping here? Don't take it the wrong way, I'm just trying to give you honest advice.

I promise i'm not taking anything the wrong way. I'm just giving you an objective response. I hope you don't take what i said the wrong way either. Discussion like this breeds progress afterall :D

[fingerpikingood]

I think this debate is easily solved if all you do is take your guitar and try to play faster, or play as fast as you can for an extended period of time repeating the same loop or scale or whatever.

you will invariably notice that you end up with a burn in your forearms.

because your forearms are the muscles you are using the most or the hardest or pushing the most beyond their ability.

those are the ones getting the workout.


simple.


not moving your forearm also helps force you to use your forearm muscles because you rely more on moving your fingers.

so keeping everything still will cause you to notice the burn in your forearms more easily.

I don't see how anybody who can play really quickly can not have noticed that.

or maybe on electric guitar it's less noticeable because the strings are so soft? but i seem to remember encountering the same when i used to play electric.


you do use the muscles in your hands as well, but they are not the main ones. they are not the most important ones. they are not the ones you really feel the burn with when you are improving your speed.

no you don't excessively curl your fingers in and out. but you do apply pressure in those directions, transfering that energy into the strings, and the better you get the less energy you waste and the more you only use to move the string, so you end up not moving much. but the kinetic energy that is vibrating your guitar strings came from your forearm.

and with the other hand as well.

but like i said. we can talk all day about websites and anatomy, but it's so simple. just play your guitar and see for yourself.

if you don't immediately agree with the forearm thing, then you've been missing out, and once you notice that in practice (no pun intended) then you'll have discovered something amazing that can help you improve your speed quickly.

there's no point in arguing about it. it's a simple fact. just play your guitar and see for yourself. once you notice your wrong keep doing what you were doing until you must stop, then rest a short time and then do that same thing again.

finding the burn is sometimes hard, but it's indication your technique is correct.

[ChainsawGuitar]

Ok this is my response...and I will go into more detail on everything on my website at some point. I didn't realise what I was saying was so contraversial, but it would be irresponsible of me to teach by a method other than the one I use myself.

You don't mention the fact that these muscles are in most cases interconnected

If you've heard my arguement before, from me, you'll notice that I actually have mentioned this. Almost every action we do uses more than one muscle group.

But this is also incorrect

Please explain this more.

Your theories arent based on a professional knowledge of how the anatomy of the hand works

Your theories about my theory aren't based on a professional knowledge of my technique. I have said before, I'm not a doctor. My theories are based on my knowledge of guitar technique, and my profession is as a guitarist- but then I'm not trying to write a medical book, I'm trying to talk about guitar. Are you a medical person? (thats not supposed to imply that you're not, and if you are maybe this is why we seem to be disagreeing? because we're looking at things from different angles).

i suggest something like alexander technique

Yes, I am aware of this technique. Don't think I've just come out with a crazy theory without doing any real research. I have also looked at techniques for different instruments, as well as looking at how the hands work.

you will invariably notice that you end up with a burn in your forearms.

No, not really. Playing something fast doesn't require a great deal more effort than playing slow- and I don't see how it should use more force.

or maybe on electric guitar it's less noticeable because the strings are so soft? but i seem to remember encountering the same when i used to play electric.

I practice on a steel string acoustic strung with thirteens, and I play bass. So I dont think its to do with the "softness" of the strings. I do believe, however, that playing with thicker strings helps to strengthen all the muscles you use- but pressing a string down doesn't use more force at speed.

you'll have discovered something amazing that can help you improve your speed quickly.

Sorry, I don't need to increase my speed much. I don't "shred" all the time and I can easily play sixteenth notes over 160bpm. I think my top speed is around 200bpm...but thats just as fast as my metronome will go and I cant do that so easily lol

Anyway, my point is I don't particularly need to play faster than I do. Sure, I'm not the fastest guy in the world...but I'm not trying to be.

I really hope that answers some questions.