How do you read sheet music in different positions?

[Mikeman9412@gma]

I read it one way but I'm not sure if it's the right way, How do you guys do it?

[ChainsawGuitar]

Heh...well whats your way? You started the thread so you should go first :p

Anyway, it might allow others to give better answers...

[forgottenking2]

I like the William Leavit approach of treating each position as a different instrument. You are basically re-learning to read the same notes when you move up on the neck. While this may sound extremely inefficient I have used this approach with great results on my students for the past 4 years. Check out the Modern Method for Guitar Books for a structured, logical way to teach using this approach.

I hope this helps.

-Jorge

[Mikeman9412@gma]

Yeah I own both 1 and 2 of the William Leavit books, The way I do it now is I'm in a key let's say, A major, I slide up to the A fret and use a scale pattern and figure out the notes so when I see the notes A D B I think hum, A-D is 4 fingers away so I do that, and I realize that A is next to be so it's just a finger up from where I started, or the same thing an octave up on the higher strings, And about the William Leavit, I can't seem to get the idea of this finger=___Note, I just use intervals to help me, and the other thing, With William Leavit books, Isn't that difficult to learn all the notes at every fret? Once you move up, its like playing a whole different instrument?

[forgottenking2]

Intervallic thinking is great and it will speed things up. The problem is when you are sight reading something you just don't have the time to do all that analyzing (think of it as the crutch in a second language of translating back and forth. There's too much thinking involved for you to be fluent). I am not too keen on memorizing things either but "just knowing" where the notes are is the only way I have found to get people to sight read decently.

It takes some time but with between 6 months to a year of study you will be able to sight read in every position. It's not that difficult people just THINK it is.

My 2 cents.

-Jorge

[Mikeman9412@gma]

Yeah, I'll do the interval thing sometimes like when I first get a piece but then after I look it over the interval thing really comes quick like I don't have to think I see a note and subconsciously think like this note is ___ many notes away, and my finger just goes to it, I'm just wondering if this is OK because I don't want to learn the wrong way, Can you explain a bit more about the Leavit approach, as I said I own both books and I'm trying but I don't think I'm doing it right?

[forgottenking2]

What is it that you are concerned about? If your fingers automatically "know" where to go when you see a note then you are doing it right. Who cares HOW they know? If you own the Leavit books then it's all in there. You can clearly see his approach. Maybe if you told me how YOU do the reading I would be able to see how to help you.

Let me know and I'll try to help.

-Jorge

[Mikeman9412@gma]

OK so, Sometimes my fingers go right to the notes but it's not always perfect and when I move positions I have to take a bit to reconfigure myself, any ideas?

[JonR]

Isn't that difficult to learn all the notes at every fret?Not IMO.

Here's what you need to know:

1. The open string notes. E A D G B E. Got that? ;)

2. The step formula of the natural notes (ABCDEFG) = 2 frets between every pair of notes, except B-C and E-F, which are 1 fret apart.

With that, you can calculate a note on any fret on any string, just by counting up.

OK this is slow, but it gets quicker the more you use the notes in question. Eg, you can calculate the 7th fret on the A string is E - 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
|A|-|B|C|-|D|-|E| - but soon you just know, by playing it a few times, that the 7th fret note is E, without counting up.

3. Now, the hard part is linking these notes with how they appear on notation! :rolleyes:
Start with the open strings:
top E = top space
B string = middle line
G string = 2nd line up
D string = space under staff
A string = 2 ledger lines below staff
bottom E = under 3rd ledger line below staff

Each of those has 2 notes between, except G and B (just one, A).
Every line and space on the staff is a different note (different letter), but not every fret is shown. The missing frets (between the natural notes ABCDEFG) are shown as # or b variations of the notes below or above.

Of course the guitar makes things complicated by being able to play the same note in lots of different places! (This is the hardest thing about learning to read on guitar, and is the main reason guitarists tend to prefer tab.) Eg:
Top space (E) = open 1st string; 2nd string 5th fret; 3rd string 9th fret; 4th string 14th fret; etc.

There's no short cut to remembering all these options, just getting familiar with the patterns. Chord shapes help a lot here: ready made, easily remembered shapes (as long as you know the notes in each chord, or course... :rolleyes: ).

[Mikeman9412@gma]

Yeah, I have all the scale patterns down but now what?

[Malcolm]

Now What? Is not it obvious. You have to figure some of this out for yourself. You take some sheet music - read a note and then find that note on your fretboard once found, sound that note, read another note, sound it, read another note sound it, etc, etc, etc.

[Grep]

OK so, Sometimes my fingers go right to the notes but it's not always perfect and when I move positions I have to take a bit to reconfigure myself, any ideas?Well, like most things, it's practice, practice, practice.

However, I'd just work through Leavitt's book in order. I've gotten about half way through and it's pretty much written so you're not shifting. At least early on. No clue about later. One position at a time is the way to start. IMO, it's too early for you to worry about shifting positions (at least where sight reading is concerned).

If you want to sight read, those books are just excellent.

[Mikeman9412@gma]

Haha yeah, That is obvious, but is it just memory that helps then? Because let's say I use the same scale pattern on A (5th Fret) and on C (8th Fret) your notes will change?

[forgottenking2]

See your problem is that you are trying to bridge your knowledge of scale patterns with sight reading. I have found that for most people this just leads to confusion and frustration. Think like if you were learning to play the guitar all over again. Like someone here said, just work through the Leavit books in order. Follow ALL of his instructions and you'll be fine. If you are looking for some sort of short cut I hate to tell you this but there ain't none. No matter what approach you choose you are going to have to work, work, work. Either develop your calculation skills to the point that no lag time is perceived or just memorize everything it really does not matter. The end result (sight reading) is what's important.

Now get off the forum and put some time into your guitar.

-Jorge

[Grep]

Haha yeah, That is obvious, but is it just memory that helps then? Because let's say I use the same scale pattern on A (5th Fret) and on C (8th Fret) your notes will change?For the most part, I guess it's memory. But also the approach you take.

For example, I suggest learning each position independently. Sure, you can use the same scale pattern at the 5th, and 8th frets, but those are two different positions with different notes.

Let me see if I can make this clearer. Say you're starting at the beginning of Leavitt's esteemed book. It starts you out with C major in open position. So you learn where all the notes are in the C major scale in that position. Next up, I believe you learn G major in that same position. That changes one of the notes in the scale, and so you learn where that new note is located at that position. And so on through all the keys.

Note that once you know C major in open position, for example, adding the notes that aren't in C major (and thus the other keys) is a less work than it was learning C major. To learn C major, you had to learn 7 notes. There's only 5 more notes you need to learn, at that point.

At that point, you truly know the 1st position. Then move on to another position, and repeat that process. As you go, learning all 12 notes and which go with what scale, for each position.

Anyways, Leavitt's books take you through it step-by-step in a reasonably gentle way. Of course, as you go, it gets easier and easier, thank goodness. :) And you get quite a bit out of it, other than just being able to sight read.

[Mikeman9412@gma]

About Leavit's book, I already learned open position, but the instructions only show me the scale to play, then when it goes to pieces I don't know which notes=which fingers, It shows the scale in standard notation and the fingers but when I go to the pieces I'm lost?

[Grep]

About Leavit's book, I already learned open position, but the instructions only show me the scale to play, then when it goes to pieces I don't know which notes=which fingers, It shows the scale in standard notation and the fingers but when I go to the pieces I'm lost?Well, first of all make sure you use a metronome. Start very very slowly. Right at the start as you get your bearings, it's ok not to use the metronome, but once you get them ok, use the metronome.

So let's look at the start. Go to page 4 and look at that very first exercise. It gives you one octave of C major on the first staff line. The notes are named above the staff, and right below them there's the fingering. It's telling you what finger to use. The string that note is on is notated right below the staff with a number in a circle.

So first note is C, played with finger number 3 (look on page 3 for which finger is which number). It's also on string number 5 (again, page 3 for which string is which number).

Go through it slowly and carefully. Everything you need is there, and presented in a good order. But take your time, and start with the metronome very slow. Also, try and look ahead to the next note before it's time to play it, so it's not a complete surprise when you get to it. :)

Just keep at page 4, and it'll sink in, trust me. I had one small advantage when I started in that I already knew the notes on the staff from playing the flute. If you can find some way to drill note recognition, that would be useful.

Flash cards with a note on a staff and the name of the note on the back would be useful. There's probably software out there that will show you the note and get you to enter what note is shown, and that would probably help as well.

Anyone know of such software for Windows, or a website, by the way? There's one for Linux, though it's fairly poor.

[Mikeman9412@gma]

Oh, Thanks but I already read standard notation and know open position, What I'm talking about is that when I go to C major in 2nd position, or any key, it explains which notes=which fingers and stuff but in the order of the notes but if you were to pick a specific note say "G" I wouldn't know where it is?

[Grep]

Oh, Thanks but I already read standard notation and know open position, What I'm talking about is that when I go to C major in 2nd position, or any key, it explains which notes=which fingers and stuff but in the order of the notes but if you were to pick a specific note say "G" I wouldn't know where it is?Well, that's jumping ahead. Learn them in open position first. For example, on page 4, the G will be the open G string, right? You'll soon also learn the Gs on both E strings at the third fret, but first is the open G string. Learn that first, then worry about 2nd position later.

You'll save yourself frustration if you just do what we're saying and follow the book in order. Every time there's new notes to learn, the book will cover it before throwing it at you. One thing at a time! :)

Second position starts getting coverage on page 60. I seriously doubt you've mastered all the preceding pages, though I could be wrong. But once again, on page 60, the notes are introduced complete with fingerings and string numbers. You can see there that the G is now played with the fourth finger, fourth string. Once you've practiced page 60, you should know where the G is located in that position.

[Malcolm]

If you are playing from standard notation use first position. If you are playing by placing the major scale at position 1, or 2 or 3 that's another thing and you have to remember where the notes of that pattern fall.

If you are improvising use patterns and place them at position 1, 2, 3 etc. If you are playing from sheet music then use first position.

You are trying to learn how to use both, fine, but, when you do you find your notes entirely different. That is the point everyone is trying to get you to see.

[Mikeman9412@gma]

Yeah, I was just practicing page 60 and it's starting to come to me, the thing is that when I just follow the scale up and down and up and down I don't feel like I'm learning because I don't have to think, I forget the notes and just remember what finger comes after, but when I start doing melodies it makes me think so that really helped thanks! BTW, I learned open position already just from thinking like, I have EADGBE and if I fret the first I have FA#D#G#CF and so on and I just see a note and my finger goes to it.

[Mikeman9412@gma]

Heres the big thing with me and my playing, I can play open position like I know that entirely, but then in different positions it's like learning the notes over again, just like if I tuned the guitar up a few notes, The fingerings for the notes change so, Is it just like you have to learn the instrument over again? And also you said to play in like 1,2,3 position, but what about all these guitarists I see playing high up the fret board? I've even played some songs like high up?

[Grep]

Heres the big thing with me and my playing, I can play open position like I know that entirely, but then in different positions it's like learning the notes over again, just like if I tuned the guitar up a few notes, The fingerings for the notes change so, Is it just like you have to learn the instrument over again? And also you said to play in like 1,2,3 position, but what about all these guitarists I see playing high up the fret board? I've even played some songs like high up?Yeah, in many ways, it's like learning a new instrument every time you change positions. Sight reading on the guitar is much more difficult than any other instrument I can think of.

Of course, I can sight read somewhat, but I can play all over the fretboard, even in positions where I can't sight read. The guitar is sort of a transposing instrument. As you've surely noticed, you can just move certain scale shapes to different positions to get a different key, and I know those patterns very well. You can learn those with or without sight reading. You'll learn them naturally (and much more) just by keeping at the sight reading.

[Mikeman9412@gma]

Yeah, I know (I think) all the patterns, But now I'm just getting into sight reading in different positions other than open, Although given alot of time (like a half and hour) I can sight read any position, Does it take you that long?

[Grep]

Yeah, I know (I think) all the patterns, But now I'm just getting into sight reading in different positions other than open, Although given alot of time (like a half and hour) I can sight read any position, Does it take you that long?Right now, if I'm not in one of the few positions I know, yeah, it can take me quite a while to figure it out. Wouldn't worry about it. Tackle each position one by one, and eventually you'll be able to do it anywhere on the neck.

I tend to play mostly by ear (which is also a valuable skill, I might add), so I can get by fine without reading. But I get so much out of learning it, I work at it as well. Learning all the notes in each position, one by one, allows you to learn the fretboard *extremely* well. And it's always really handy being able to read normal sheet music, like just about any musician on another instrument. Not to mention my rhythm has improved a lot since I started reading.

Anyways, sleep beckons.

[JonR]

Yeah, I know (I think) all the patterns, But now I'm just getting into sight reading in different positions other than open, Although given alot of time (like a half and hour) I can sight read any position, Does it take you that long?Used to. ;)
Like anything, the more you do it, the better/quicker it gets. You sound like you're doing OK so far.
It might help to map out a few common notes - like all the Es, say. Maybe draw a diagram of the fretboard and plot them (and play them of course). See the patterns between the octaves. Then add in (say) the Bs and Gs. (Now you have a full Em arpeggio pattern. ;).)

True sight-reading (see a note, play it anywhere you want immediately) takes some time to develop (can be years), and is more difficult on guitar than other instruments, simply because you have more choices.

[Mikeman9412@gma]

Wait, I still don't get Leavit's approach, So you have to learn all the scales for every key in every position and then memorize which fingers = which notes for each every different key and position because every time you move the notes change?

[Mikeman9412@gma]

One more thing, When I am learning all of this it seems like it's impossible to remember which finger corresponds to each note in every position, And with so many frets?

[Mikeman9412@gma]

Wait, I'm starting to get it, in book 2 it really only covers second position, what about when I see people playing really high up the neck?

[UKRuss]

There are only 12 notes, only 7 of which feature in any given key.


Like Jon says, take it a note at a time and see the patterns, building the arpeggios across the whole neck.

[Hypnus9]

One good way to learn to read all across the neck is to learn one piece with several different fingerings. For instance, you could sit down and learn "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring" at the first position, then in the fifth position, the in the seventh position. After this, then learn it utilizing several different positions. After all is said and done, see which fingering you like the best in terms of tonality first, then for ease of fingering.

Learning to read will take you some time, but the benefits are manifold. Another thing I personally am an advocate of is to take a piece of music, get some manuscript paper, and write down the notes of the piece verbatim. I believe that if you want to read well, you have to be able to write, just like with the English language. Music is another language, and you must be able to write in order to read.

[Mikeman9412@gma]

So here's where I am, I know (i think) all the scales and patterns, I know all the modes in one pattern, I know the major arpeggios in all patterns and I'm pretty good at sight-reading with 1 or 2 positions. My goal is to get better at sight-reading in all positions and the only problem is I'm not always sure which fingers=which notes, I'll have to count up like if I see a G and I'm in C major Ill have to count up from C to G to find it so what do you think?

[JonR]

So here's where I am, I know (i think) all the scales and patterns, I know all the modes in one pattern, I know the major arpeggios in all patterns and I'm pretty good at sight-reading with 1 or 2 positions. My goal is to get better at sight-reading in all positions and the only problem is I'm not always sure which fingers=which notes,The choice of fingers is down to what other notes you need to be playing - and this may also govern exactly where you play the note in question.
Say you have a G above the staff. You know (I presume) you can find that note on 3rd fret 1st string. You can also find it on 8th fret 2nd string and 12th fret 3rd string (and 17th fret 4th string). Which you choose depends on what else you need to play, before or after, and how the whole phrase sits under your fingers in the various available patterns at those frets - also maybe on what you need to do with that note.
Eg if it's in a blues in E major, you might want to bend that G, and that may be easier (or sound better) on 2nd or 3rd string than on 1st string - or not, as the case may be.
I'll have to count up like if I see a G and I'm in C major Ill have to count up from C to G to find it so what do you think?I suggest learning all the positions for certain common notes - as I suggested above - as well as using the counting-up method. Use one to back up the other.

So you could find that G this way: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|-C-|---|-D-|---|-E-|-F-|---|-G-|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|Or this way:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
|---|---|-G-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-G-|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-G-|
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|Or maybe by learning the CAGED system chord shapes (the shapes below all give the sound of a G chord, or a G major arpeggio):
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
|---|---|-G-|---|---|---|-x-|---|---|-x-|---|---|
|---|---|-x-|---|---|---|---|-G-|---|---|---|-x-|
|---|---|---|-x-|---|---|-x-|---|---|---|---|-G-|
|---|---|---|---|-G-|---|---|---|-x-|---|---|-x-|
|---|-x-|---|---|-x-|---|---|---|---|-G-|---|---|
|---|---|-G-|---|---|---|---|---|---|-x-|---|---|
(..E shape...) (...C shape....)
..G shape...) (...D shape.....) (...A shape..)
Or - ideally - with a mix of all three methods. (The latter includes lower octaves of G of course.)

[Mikeman9412@gma]

Yeah, I'll have to try those, but is the way I'm doing it OK? Like when I start a song I'll have to do "some" counting, I do remember some fingerings but after a bit I'll start to remember which notes = which fingers just from practice, so am I doing it right? I just don't want to learn wrong?

[JonR]

Yeah, I'll have to try those, but is the way I'm doing it OK? Like when I start a song I'll have to do "some" counting, I do remember some fingerings but after a bit I'll start to remember which notes = which fingers just from practice, so am I doing it right? I just don't want to learn wrong?I don't think there's any wrong way to learn, as long as your info is correct (and it seems to be).
Do what you're already doing, but try some of those other ideas too. Different methods can reinforce each other and make it quicker.

There's really two different issues here: learning to sight read (translate notation into fingering); and learning the fretboard.
If you only know frets 0-5, you can still practice sight-reading well enough - that area covers a hell of a lot of notes (well over half the range of guitar). Work with written vocal melodies (which rarely go higher than that), looking for new ones all the time (buy or borrow songbooks). That will not only improve your reading, but get you playing good tunes too - which will build you a library of improvisation licks.

[johnreynolds10]

Finally, after almost an hour, I have finished reading all the post. But it is worth it. I have learned a lot. I am a novice guitarist but I know through everyone's help I can be good at it.
Indie (www.DigBands.com/indie)

[Mikeman9412@gma]

Hey guys, Its been a while since I posted in this thread but I have another question :) LOL anyway, So when I use the method I use where I find the key, Let's say D, Ill slide up do the D fret on either E or A and then use the "interval" method I described earlier I only somewhat know where to put my fingers to get the note I want but after I get into the song I start to remember/learn where they go and by half way into the song I have an idea of which note=which finger, but then when I'm done I totally forget?