Non-blues fingerpicking

[Mr JJB]

I'd like to learn fingerpicking for pop / rock music so that I can play both some melody and chord together, or at least so it just doesn't sound like background arpeggios.

The few proficient guitarists I've personally met and whom I caught casually playing were not strumming but indeed playing with all their fingers.

A good example of the type of stuff I'm aiming for is Stairway to Heaven (which I've learnt): both a melodic and harmonic (i.e. supporting chords) effect.

I've worked with blues / ragtime books, but the sound that comes out of it feels quite similar across the board and old-fashioned. The only exception that I can think of is Eric Clapton's unplugged album, but it's still based on old-fashioned blues in my opinion, so barely applicable to other areas of music as far as I know.

Who and what songs do you recommend I listen to? Any good books for me to work from? Any other advice? Disagreements with what I wrote?

Thanks.

[bluesking]

Classical?

Flamenco?

Folk?

Unfortunately all of these are generally rather "old" styles. I'm not sure if this is quite what you mean.

I would probably focus on folk though, its the closest to rock. Stuff like stairway to heaven sounds like classic folk to me. There is some good stuff by people like Leo Kottke for example which sometimes has a more modern feel, yet is still fingerpicked. Nick Drake is of course fantastic, but might depress you a bit.

Of course to me, folk fingerpicking sounds even more old-fashioned than blues, but ho-hum.

[gersdal]

There is ".... for classical guitar" books that is great. I've tried Beatles for classical guitar.

[Crossroads]

There a quite a few contemporary electric players who play with fingers in a partially classical style. It's not really a style I've ever tried to work on, so I can't think of loads of famous names immediately, but Brett Garsed plays that way with fingers and a pick, and I think it's pretty common amongst the jazzier players ... if that's the sort of thing you are thinking of.

Here's Brett Garsed (if you don't already know of him) - you can see the finger technique if you watch his left hand (eg very clearly at the end of the film)-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTMBVKfBcqs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTMBVKfBcqs)

Ian.

[JonR]

Non-blues fingerpicking?

Well, apart form the obvious classical technique, you could try any of the countless folk fingerstylists:

Bert Jansch (sometimes a bit bluesy)
John Renbourn
Davy Graham
Nick Drake
John Martyn (sometimes a bit bluesy)
Chet Atkins (ditto)
Merle Travis (ditto)
Mississippi John Hurt (surprisingly un-bluesy)
Martin Carthy
Jackson C Frank
Bob Dylan (check the Freewheelin' album in particular, also Blood on the Tracks)
Joan Baez
Paul Simon
Joni Mitchell
James Taylor
Leo Kottke
John Fahey
Richard Thompson
Kelly Joe Phelps
Jose Gonzales
Donovan
Beatles (check the white album)
Martin Simpson
Tommy Emmanuel
Dick Gaughan
etc
etc

There's websites too of course...
http://www.acousticfingerstyle.com/
and wiki may not be totally reliable all the time - :rolleyes: - but should point you in a few useful directions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fingerstyle_guitar

[fingerpikingood]

there are different kinds of fingerpicking?

[bluesking]

there are different kinds of fingerpicking?

At least as many as different kinds of flatpicking.

[ChainsawGuitar]

there are different kinds of fingerpicking?

I dont think there are that many in terms of technique, but from a theory/implemtation perspective there are.

[fingerpikingood]

I was semi joking. implying that your fingerpicking style does not dictate the style of music you're making.

to me, there is fingerpicking and that's it.

the rest style upon style is just the music you're making with your fingerpicking.

Blues is not a style of fingerpicking. styles of fingerpicking make sound from your guitar, the music you make using your fingerpicking will be of a style or other.

iow you can use every style of fingerpicking and play blues with it, and vice versa.

so to me, fingerpick every way you can figure out, that will allow to do different things, and then use those to make whatever style music you want.

like finger tapping can be used in blues. rasguedas too, why not?

[ChainsawGuitar]

No I agree, there is really only one way to fingerpick and it includes many different techniques- I.E. rasguedas etc...

[bluesking]

Well, I personally believe there is only one way to play the guitar, just different techniques. ;)

I also believe that there is only one way to make music, just different instruments. :cool:

Of course we all know there are only 12 notes in Western music, just different ways of arranging them. :rolleyes:

Likewise, there is only one way to discuss guitar technique, just different levels of pointlessness between everyone's statements. :p

[fingerpikingood]

I'm not sure i understand really what you mean by "way".

what's the one way to play guitar?

and one way to make music?

I find there's a zillion ways of playing guitar, which makes things like this difficult too because people talk about "playing guitar" whilst imagining some kind of concept, like jimi hendrix, or tommy emmanuel or bb king, or some flamenco great, or shredding, or whatever.

and for making music there's different ways too, start with a beat, cut up other tunes into soundbytes and re arrange them, you could draw your own waveforms, program music in, write in on a score sheet, record instruments yourself, start with lyrics and them make the music or vice versa, start with a scene in a movie and then write the score, start with a chord and build something around it. start with an unusual sound and build something around it, like some object you found that makes an interesting noise when you bang it, or some exotic instrument, or some cool synth sound you found or even made from the ground up.

so idk if that's what you meant, but i find there are infinite different "ways" of making
music, and playing the guitar.

but when it comes to playing blues or heavy metal, or whatever, imo there's no technique that is specific to a style, there are techniques that are commonly applied in certain styles for sure.

but to me you can play any which way, with your toes even or your teeth or whatever, and make any style of music that way.

because like you said it's all in the way you arrange the notes. also in the tones and stuff, volume, but we could include that in "arranging the notes" i think. and for this certain techniques come into play. to get certain tones, certain effects, certain styles of music use certain specific ones of these kind of tones or effects than others, but imo you can use any one wit any style of music and so take it to the next level.

that's why to me, if you want to be a heavy metal guitarist, or a flamenco guitarist, or a blues guitarist or whatever, I would learn lots of other songs that don't fall into these categories, that use chords that aren't common in these categories, i would use techniques that aren't common in these categories.

because then when you go to the category you like, of your favorite kind of style you can make it your own and add some other stuff to it. mix and match styles.

like bruce lee did with martial arts.

right?

there are different techniques and ways to fight, but fighting is fighting.

"you've got to be shapeless, formless, like water. you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle.
now water can flow, or it can crash. be water my friend." -Bruce lee.

iow. listen, react, don't do.

possess the style of no style at all.

i find the great wisdom from most things is interchangeable.

right? you can learn styles, kung fu monkey style, or crane style, or aikido, or karate, or whatever. learn shapes, learn how to move your body. train to resist shock, gain flexibility. you can learn patterns. but learning these things does not make you a great fighter. and you can mix and match things you've learned in all these styles of fighting.

fighting is fighting, how it gets done doesn't matter. but to fight your best you need to be free, not caught up in directions, patterns, specific styles. you need to be honest, and free. shapeless. like water.

[bluesking]

It was meant to be a joke. You know, like a more entertaining and succinct way of stating that I believe chainsaw is wrong, and regardless, the conversation is irrelevant. :p

I shan't elaborate any further because you have already observed that this is a semantic issue. Unlike with some more delicate matters of music theory, a semantic discussion over this topic is not going to help anyone in any way.

[fingerpikingood]

the misunderstanding is semantic, but you meant to say something, and your meaning i think is important for any discussion. otherwise there is no point to speaking.

my point was that i was uncertain exactly what you meant by "way" if you don't want to explain it exactly that's fine.

but if you don't, then you essentially said nothing. unless of course what you meant by "way", was the same "way" I was talking about.

chainsaw was agreeing with me too, so i guess it was aimed at me too, it's too bad it's a little tough to write sarcasm.

but i think maybe my post served it's purpose still to explain properly my position. and i guess chainsaw's as well.

you know?

fingerpicking is fingerpicking.

there are lots of different techniques of fingerpicking, a whole bunch.

but none of them are blues, none of them are rock, none of them are R&B, none folk none country.

those things are what you choose to play with your fingerpicking, not the fingerpicking itself.

fingerpicking is fingerpicking.

using a pick is using a pick. you can play harmonics with a pick. is that blues? no. rock? no. country? no.

those are styles of music within which you could use any kind of picking under the sun.

right?

i think the distinction is important.

because if one asks "how do i fingerpick blues?" well the answer is not in your fingerpicking technicue, it's in your groove and choice of arrangement of the notes you fingerpick. not the property of the technique itself.

seems like a pretty central point to the discussion to me.

[bluesking]

My point is that this conversation has become pointless.

[fingerpikingood]

maybe you didn't fully read my posts then?

[bluesking]

maybe you didn't fully read my posts then?

I read as much as I could bear, but the lack of punctuation makes it extremely difficult to get your point. Regardless, this is a non-issue. I don't care what you call "a way". Equally I don't care what chainsaw classifies as "a way". I certainly don't care what I classify as "a way".

All I know is that most flamenco players can't play convincing delta blues and vice versa. I don't care about the philosophical implications of it.

[fingerpikingood]

I read as much as I could bear, but the lack of punctuation makes it extremely difficult to get your point. Regardless, this is a non-issue. I don't care what you call "a way". Equally I don't care what chainsaw classifies as "a way". I certainly don't care what I classify as "a way".

All I know is that most flamenco players can't play convincing delta blues and vice versa. I don't care about the philosophical implications of it.

some other people might care.

if you are to communicate with others i think the meaning of the words matters, but that's just me.



that flamenco guitarists can't play convincing delta blues is not to do with their hands. but with their minds.

technique is not the issue. the music they use their technique to produce is.

[bluesking]

if you are to communicate with others i think the meaning of the words matters, but that's just me.


I agree. Thats one of the reasons I find it so hard to communicate with you. Regardless, if there is no content behind the words it is pointless to discuss them.


that flamenco guitarists can't play convincing delta blues is not to do with their hands. but with their minds.

technique is not the issue. the music they use their technique to produce is.

Thats all well and good. It doesn't help the OP though. He clearly believes there are different "ways" to fingerpick. Whether they are in his mind or his hands doesn't seem to concern him so much right now. Either way, he still has to learn to play what he wants to play. The "way" he has been doing it so far doesn't satisfy him.

After all, lets not forget when this thread derailed. I believe it was around about here:

there are different kinds of fingerpicking?

I'm starting to feel like there is a taint in the air.

[fingerpikingood]

right the OP believes, or at least believed, there is a way to fingerpick blues.

so step one is clear it up that there isn't.

step two is to learn what makes blues blues, and for that you need to look at blues theory.

the bluesness of blues is not in the fingerpicking of it. not the technique at least, but the timing and the emotion put into it, which is an independent thing.

right?

so were my posts not constructive? i guess you wouldn't know since you haven't read them.

[Mr JJB]

Gentlemen, if I may interrupt this exchange...

First, thanks to all for your feedback. Useful tips and info that I've already started checking out. I'm sure I'll have more later. ;)

Secondly, I'm quite flexible in the styles that I play, so to clarify my intents, I was more after learning techniques specifically.

Thanks again.

[bluesking]

Gentlemen, if I may interrupt this exchange...

First, thanks to all for your feedback. Useful tips and info that I've already started checking out. I'm sure I'll have more later. ;)

Secondly, I'm quite flexible in the styles that I play, so to clarify my intents, I was more after learning techniques specifically.

Thanks again.

Just so you know. Its not always like this. We generally play nice. There is a whole load of amazing info and some trully gifted resident experts here.

I'm sorry that your post became hijacked.

Back on topic, I think learning from recordings is the way to go. Jon's list should hopefully give you some new material to be inspired by.

[Mr JJB]

To be honest, I find boards more entertaining when discussions occasionally get "passionate"...

[fingerpikingood]

I think i understand what you want. you just want to acquire as many techniques of fingerpicking as possible?

some of the answer depends on whether you want to use a thumb pick thingy, or grow your fingernails out long.

apart from that i would recommend rasguedas. and growing your nails at least a little, to the tips of your flesh. this will allow you to still be able to do finger tapping and will protect you for rasguedas and still allow you to strum and play rhythm without needing a pick or hurting yourself.

blues often uses bends and stuff, so it lends itself well to a left hand that wraps around with the thumb.

other more scaley choppy staccatoish quick runs as well as "bar scales" (not sure if a name for this already exists, but when you would play like a bar chord with index finger and then solo around in front of that with your other fingers, to give an improvisation with a kind of cordish feel, a fuller sound.)

i also like to pinch with my index and thumb on many occasions. i like the sound and the feel of it.

also you can do artificial harmonics this way, by fretting with your left hand and, the way i like to do it, is mute with your thumb twelve frets up and pick with your index.

there's also finger tapping, not sure if that counts, but you can tap down on string with right hand to play notes, you need to mute the higher string with your left hand to avoid a nasty second note ringing through and ruining everything, and you need to press down firmly up near the fret for the best sound i find.

I would recommend practicing all your fingers for fingerpicking including your pinky because it can really come in handy for some things.

not sure if that's the kind of thing you were looking for, but that's pretty much it of what i know i think.

[Mr JJB]

Thanks for the additional tips. That makes a lot of sense.
Could you clarify what "rasguedas" means? I saw you referred to it in another thread (on fingerpicking without long nails) but I still didn't get the exact meaning.

[JonR]

Thanks for the additional tips. That makes a lot of sense.
Could you clarify what "rasguedas" means? I saw you referred to it in another thread (on fingerpicking without long nails) but I still didn't get the exact meaning.The word is "rasgueado" (singular) which is what you need to google. Here's some of what I got.
http://www.ehow.com/video_2388129_rasgueado-techniques-flamenco-guitar.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rasgueado
http://www.learnclassicalguitar.com/flamenco.html
Lots on youtube too - here's a couple:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YUVIRp1yiE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsSvIl4gFEY&feature=related

[fingerpikingood]

thanks JonR ya rasguedos.. ooops my bad.

They will help strengthen your fingers.

to use them alot they are best suited for flamenco, but i find they are useful to thrown in a little here and there with just about anything you'll be finger picking to.

plus the finger strength you'll build for getting some extra speed, if you use them like you would a gym exercise.

[elmariachi]

Wow sometimes i wonder if people just answer questions on here to answer them and up their post-count rather than providing a useful answer based on experience and knowledge. I've witnessed alot of misinformation on here recently and people using semantics to justify pointless arguments. There is a difference between thinking something is the case and knowing that it is.

Finger-picking is a immensely complex technical area that comprises many different individual techniques [and yes they can be executed differently]. Anyone who has a background in classical guitar can testify to this. As far as what is usable to the OP it really depends on the sound you are looking for and also the type of mechanics you will use. If you want more on the finger strokes used in classical technique you should check out scott tenants pumping nylon. It gives good demonstrations of the two main strokes "rest stroke" and "free stroke". The latter is the closest to what most non classical players use when finger picking although most if not all have a tendency to pick from the small joint rather than the larger one thus resulting in a quieter sound. [Classical Players cant afford this obviously as they rarely amplify and the classical guitar is notoriously quiet]. Paco De Lucia is an example of someone he utilises alot of rest strokes. TBH he is prob the best at it i have ever seen. The bassist Billy sheehan does the same although has a slightly different technique. You can observe this over youtube easily. If you want more specifics just ask.

I have some good techniques garnered from masterclasses over the years for specific situations i can give you if its called for.

Have you tried thumbpicks? A great guy to look at is scotty anderson. He has a phenomenal hybid picking technique and you could learn alot from him. He has an instructional dvd out that i have yet to see surpassed in that area.

There is countless practice materials for classical guitar as it is the daddy of the technique so that would be my advice to you as far as developing finger picking technique. Also it incorporates most of the spanish/flamenco stuff as well. If you want specifics again just ask.

Oh and check out anything by tommy emmanuel. He is probably closer to what you are looking for than perhaps the classical stuff i mentioned. He is second to none on a steel string. Also he is a great example of one guy playing melody and accompaniement. His ability to voice both is amazing. Check his version of somewhere over the rainbow for example.

[fingerpikingood]

tommy emmanuel is hardcore eh?

[elmariachi]

tommy emmanuel is hardcore eh?


Are you asking me if he is hardcore or saying that he is?

[fingerpikingood]

saying i think he is and asking if you agree. it's a canadian thing. eh means right? or don't you think? it's kind of like "you know what i'm saying?" kind of thing. it's kind of a statement but also a question that would normally result in a response such as "ya i know h'es crazy" or conversely, "i don't find". but it's also kind of a statement.

....stupid canucks

[elmariachi]

Haha cool. I wasnt sure hence why i asked. I 100% agree. Tommy emanuel is the man for steel string. After Django of course ;)