I need help with a song! Please!

[Mikeman9412@gma]

Hey guys, I'm learning the song, Royal Orleans by Led Zeppelin, and I just can't get the intro! I've tried different positions, open position all sorts of stuff but I just can't get it! :( If you need to hear the song it's here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QDCMwoP-jw

Tabs are here http://www.guitaretab.com/l/led-zeppelin/10242.html



Now I know what your gonna say, LOOK AT THE TABS! But here's the thing, these tabs are very awkward to play and I'm wondering if there's another way? Plus I have the sheet music so I like to figure the sound using standard notation/sheet music, Thanks!

[JonR]

The tab - at a quick glance and listen - looks right to me. Just face it that it's difficult :( (there's no easier fingering I can think of). You're dealing with Jimmy Page here, remember! He was a pretty good guitarist... ;)

[bluesking]

As Jon says, the tab looks right. It might require some practice and thought to play it well, but the positions seem optimal to me too. Try playing the shapes shown in the tab but experiment with using different fingers to fret each note untill you find the most comfortable way to play it. I would bar both strings where the same fret is used across both strings in the above example.

One of the great things about avoiding open positions is that when you finally do manage to play it, you will be able to move the whole thing up and down the neck to play it in different keys, or even re-use it when soloing over other songs.

Also Mike, I think this highlights where you are currently at. Push ahead and you will get stuff like this so quickly it will astound you. Practice, practice, practice. Stop worrying about matters of theory. A lot of your posts seem to be asking questions which your mind wants answered, but your fingers are not ready to even consider. This post is exactly the kind of thing you should be worrying about right now.

[Mikeman9412@gma]

Yeah, I'm still thinking about theory but I'm really taking your guys advice and I'm starting to learn a lot of songs, I just bought a few books and a Complete Zeppelin sheet music book, I'm thinking about getting a band together and other things, But one question about the tab, It's played on B and G but I was playing it on B and E because the first note on B in the tab is E, is that OK?

[bluesking]

Yeah, I'm still thinking about theory but I'm really taking your guys advice and I'm starting to learn a lot of songs, I just bought a few books and a Complete Zeppelin sheet music book, I'm thinking about getting a band together and other things, But one question about the tab, It's played on B and G but I was playing it on B and E because the first note on B in the tab is E, is that OK?

Sounds like a great plan mate. Zeppelin is cool stuff to learn. I started off learning most of the AC/DC songs, a long time ago. All that classic rock stuff is good for your playing I think. Its all blues in the end.

As for playing the section, I personally would always play it exactly the way it is shown in the tab. I would find it uncomfortable to play that on the B&E strings. Don't forget, you can't just shift the pattern to the B&E strings (the interval between B*E is a 4th, whereas between G&B its a 3rd). So I pressume when you are playing it on the B&E you are using different shapes. The shapes on the B&E require your hands to do quite a lot more work.

As I say, make sure you bar the doublestops on the 7th fret. You can do this with either your 3rd finger or 4th (pinkie). You may be trying to play one finger per string: this is not appropriate for the above example.

Get a metronome and play the pattern REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY (I mean really!) slowly. Speed up very gradually and only when you can play the pattern at the current speed without even thinking about it.

[Mikeman9412@gma]

OK, Sure I'll try the tabs method! I do like the pattern idea and that you can just slide it up or w/e as opposed to the open position, Thanks!!!

[Mikeman9412@gma]

Hey, So i tried the tabs, and tried all different positions, two things stick out, In the song it sounds much lower so I'm not sure if the tabs are correct (Maybe the notes not the right octave) And the other thing is it just sounds wrong/bad, Like most songs even if you do it slow it's recognizable but when I tried it just sounded wrong, Any ideas?

[bluesking]

Hey, So i tried the tabs, and tried all different positions, two things stick out, In the song it sounds much lower so I'm not sure if the tabs are correct (Maybe the notes not the right octave) And the other thing is it just sounds wrong/bad, Like most songs even if you do it slow it's recognizable but when I tried it just sounded wrong, Any ideas?

I've just played it here along to the recording. Pressuming we are only talking about the intro (I havn't looked at the rest) it all seems fine. Sounds to me to be the right notes in the right octave. Its a quick little lick, so maybe you havn't got the timing yet. Don't despair, keep playing it slow (it could take days till you do it on autopilot, thats where you want to be).

Perhaps it sounds lower on the recording because the bass is playing a complimentary part under the lick. Perhaps the tone on your guitar is too trebley.

Perhaps I am wrong, but the tab sounds just fine to me.

[Mikeman9412@gma]

You know your probably right, I;m listening to it right now and I guess it's the bass and yeah I mean the intro, I'll keep trying! I'll respond in a bit with my results, Thanks!

[Mikeman9412@gma]

Hey, I just can't get it :( lol I'm going to keep playing and practicing but I'm having SO much trouble :(

[jwilliams]

I haven't read the past posts, but I'll put it my two cents worth. Way I would play it..Finger 1 on e on the B string, finger two on C# on G string, then just hammer on the 7th frets of said string. Pluck strings again on e and C#, then just slide that shape up to the next phrase. Then the rest is basically the same, just a different order.

[fingerpikingood]

it might be too hard for you at first.

if i were you, just starting out, i would choose easier songs if i wanted to copy exactly what the artist was playing.

but you don't need to.

if you play the E mjaor scale pattern you'll find a gold mine of notes that work for this. practice a section of your scale on it. maybe you won't play the exact same notes. that's ok.

try to though at times withing that scale, as you would imagine it should be.

basically take guesses.

you should be able to come up with something similar that works.


another downside of this song for learning imo, is that there is not much musical structure around it, not much supporting cast. almost only the guitar riff and vocals.

i think you chose a song that had guitar you wanted to learn in it.

this is probably not the best of plans right now for you unless it is a simple tune.

you still need to work on your dexterity before you can tackle harder tunes.

you could even learn songs that have no guitar in it whatsoever.

the key thing is to learn the chord sequence, so a tune where you hear a chord sequence playing is good. you also need to learn the scale of the key it is in.

this you can at first learn a section, and then when you memorized it, play it over your music and just improvise right away.

that way you'll learn the pattern better, and what's more important what the pattern means in context, in music.

with music playing the bland pattern takes on a whole new life. and that same pattern depending on the music behind it will have different flavours, different kinds of lives, and those are what we call modes. but save modes for another day.

first get your major scale down, learn it with songs you like.

learning licks of songs is good, but i think you should first get your major scale down. otherwise, you won't have reference points where you can compare this riff to another song, and even use this riff in another song.

the key is.... well... key.

[bluesking]

Mike,
Don't give up on it. It might take you a couple of days, maybe a week. Thats not really a long time in the grand scheme of things. And what you learn in that week you will probably keep with you for life.

Don't work only on this song, but equally don't forget about it.

A good nights sleep does wonders. On day two you will be amazed at how much simpler it seems.

Practice slow and with a metronome and you will get it. If you don't have a metronome google "online metronome": there are plenty free ones online which will run through your computer speakers.

Generally, you should pick songs which you like which aren't too complicated. I don't think this tune is too hard even for a beginer. You may not be able to play it at full speed just yet, but thats what the metronome is for. You can go as slow as you need to make it all work, all the notes ringing out properly, not muffles. Better to play it correctly at half speed than try to keep up with CD sloppily.

Goals are a good thing. If you want to learn this, you can do it. You know you are practicing the right things when you try to play something that is just a little too hard for you.

[JonR]

Hey, I just can't get it :( lol I'm going to keep playing and practicing but I'm having SO much trouble :(Personally I think this riff is too hard for a beginner (not tricky in itself, but very fast).
I mean, it's good to get obsessed with something like this, and really go for it, push yourself. But don't get depressed if you can't get it - at least, if you can't get it up to speed. If you can play it at half-tempo, that's an important achievement.
Look for other stuff too.

I will say that you seem to have what it takes to become successful, in the long run. Success comes not from innate talent (if such a thing exists), but from sheer hard work and dogged persistence.
Everything is hard when you start. But if you keep on pushing - and enjoying the process - you will make it, as far as you want to go.
It's important you enjoy the process, otherwise what's the point? It's a mistake to go through pain and drudgery in the hope of enjoying it in the future.
If you're the kind of person who can't wait to pick up the guitar in the morning - and can't stand to put it down at night - (and you sound like you might be) that's the kind of person that becomes a great musician. And even if you don't (if you make some other career choice), well you'll have had fun along the way. That's what it's all about.

[luca19575]

probably if you put a capo on the 5th fret it will become easier
you take the tab and every number is -5 (so when you see 5 its 0 , an open string)
the only problem is that you cant play the low e cause the lowest tone is the a ,but i think if you transpose these parts up an octave it will not sound bad
also when you see large numbers on the tab on the g and b string you can play them with the b and the e string (e.g. if you see 11-11 on g and b string with the capo on 5th fret it will be 6-6 on g and b string you can play 2-1 on b and e string)

[bluesking]

Look guys, perhaps I am out of line here, I don't know:

This lick is a bread-and-butter type of lick. As Jon says, it is quite fast, but learning it at a lower tempo is still a damn good idea. As I say, use a metronome and don't jump the gun.

The way it is written is fine. It doesn't require transposing, repositioning or the use of a capo.

Just learn it at whatever tempo you can & then move on.

I'm afraid that any alternative way of playing this simply side-steps the real issue. Most guitarists would play it exactly the way it is tabbed, probably using the same fingers as each other. Doesn't that say something to you all? I'm not saying there is a right & wrong way to play it, just worse & better. The way it is tabbed is the way a blues/rock guitarist would improvise it 99 times out of a hundred. Learn it this way, then think about different ways of playing it.

Lets not forget how it was for us when we were all begginers. In my first year or two of playing this lick would have taken me anywhere up to a week to become comfortable with (even then, probably not up to the required tempo, but close). Mike's post is only a few days old. Give him a chance to at least try to learn it properly before you suggest short-cuts or submission.

I am kind of glad I didn't even have a computer when I started learning. If I had people telling me not to try stuff which they thought was too hard for me or tell me to use a capo I don't think I would ever have learnt things the way I chose to. Thankfully, I was dogged in my pursuit of goals. This doesn't mean you need to be stupid with your choice of learning material. Mike, I'm sure knows what is too hard for him.

I don't classify something as "too hard" just because you don't pick it up in one day.

[fingerpikingood]

the OP is not you though. I've tried to teach some people where it didn't make much sense to jump into a riff like this.

people have different strengths and weaknesses.

yes, fingering is tough at first, you need to practice alot, but like you said in your post, you want to be practicing what's a little too hard for you.

not what's way too hard for you.

plus learning a riff on its own without being able to place within the key is not really all that useful.

you will have practice some rhythm, some dexterity, sure.

but that lick will seem to you pegged to a certain location on your fretboard.

so when you go to play a song in another key, it won't be useful in the location you learned it.

but if you recognize its location in the key, then when you play a song in a different key, you'll know where you can play that lick again, and the lick you learned becomes so much more powerful and useful.

you should always push yourself. but learning the key scale of the song you chose, and the pentatonic, will be more useful in terms of theory, will allow you to identifiy exactly what would be pushing you a little and you can push yourself at your own pace without getting ahead of yourself, it will at once practice your improvisation and your rhythm and your key scale and your pentatonic, and it will be more fun because improvising is fun, and you will more quickly be able to reap the benifits of your practice, because you can even improvise with only 3 notes.

this allows you to practice 3 notes, get dexterity doing that, and know those 3 in the key scale or pentatonic scale (the key scales includes the pentatonic within it). it allows you to go at your pace and push yourself from where you are.

I've not heard you play so i can't give you more appropriate directions, but a method where you can assess your level and push yourself as required i think would be best for you given you don't have a teacher sitting next to you.

imo this is the quickest, most complete, and most enjoyable way to learn guitar.

but everyone is different too.

[JonR]

Look guys, perhaps I am out of line here, I don't know:

This lick is a bread-and-butter type of lick. As Jon says, it is quite fast, but learning it at a lower tempo is still a damn good idea. As I say, use a metronome and don't jump the gun.

The way it is written is fine. It doesn't require transposing, repositioning or the use of a capo.

Just learn it at whatever tempo you can & then move on.

I'm afraid that any alternative way of playing this simply side-steps the real issue. Most guitarists would play it exactly the way it is tabbed, probably using the same fingers as each other. Doesn't that say something to you all? I'm not saying there is a right & wrong way to play it, just worse & better. The way it is tabbed is the way a blues/rock guitarist would improvise it 99 times out of a hundred. Learn it this way, then think about different ways of playing it.

Lets not forget how it was for us when we were all begginers. In my first year or two of playing this lick would have taken me anywhere up to a week to become comfortable with (even then, probably not up to the required tempo, but close). Mike's post is only a few days old. Give him a chance to at least try to learn it properly before you suggest short-cuts or submission.

I am kind of glad I didn't even have a computer when I started learning. If I had people telling me not to try stuff which they thought was too hard for me or tell me to use a capo I don't think I would ever have learnt things the way I chose to. Thankfully, I was dogged in my pursuit of goals. This doesn't mean you need to be stupid with your choice of learning material. Mike, I'm sure knows what is too hard for him.

I don't classify something as "too hard" just because you don't pick it up in one day.Agreed. Hope I didn't give the impression he shouldn't be trying it. Only that he should take it slow and get it right (as tabbed). But no big deal if it doesn't work out, or takes forever.
What's so special about this tune after all? It's one steep little rock he's trying to climb up. There's a whole mountain range out there - with big slopes, easy slopes, hard ones, great views, as well as many more challenging climbs... ;) (But get the footholds and techniques on this one right, or there'll be similar problems down the line...)

[bluesking]

What's so special about this tune after all?
Thats not for me to say, but for Mike. When I used to grind away trying to learn angus licks & malcolm riffs and someone came along and tried to get me to play some Oasis I would tell them to **** off. Theres nothing so special about AC/DC or Oasis or Zeppelin in any absolute sense. Thankfully, to their fans, there is a lot special.

[JonR]

Thats not for me to say, but for Mike. When I used to grind away trying to learn angus licks & malcolm riffs and someone came along and tried to get me to play some Oasis I would tell them to **** off. Theres nothing so special about AC/DC or Oasis or Zeppelin in any absolute sense. Thankfully, to their fans, there is a lot special.I guess I'm only saying that because I'd never heard of this Zep tune before... :rolleyes: :o
What about Whole Lotta Love, Immigrant Song, Communication Breakdown, Black Dog, Stairway to Heaven, etc etc? ;)

[bluesking]

I guess I'm only saying that because I'd never heard of this Zep tune before... :rolleyes: :o
What about Whole Lotta Love, Immigrant Song, Communication Breakdown, Black Dog, Stairway to Heaven, etc etc? ;)

They are fab songs. But you have to admit, that this song has an unusual funk about it. Moreso than most zeppelin. I think I get the feeling in this tune that Bonham was not altogether happy with playing it. You can hear him thumping away keeping to straight time as much as possible. Trying avoid the usual funk groove. But it seems the rest of the guys are funking it up something proper.

[Mikeman9412@gma]

Already learned all of those :)

[JonR]

Already learned all of those :)Haha, great stuff!
(You're one or two ahead of me then... :( )

[Mikeman9412@gma]

first get your major scale down, learn it with songs you like.

learning licks of songs is good, but i think you should first get your major scale down.
What do you mean?

[Mikeman9412@gma]

Mike,
Don't give up on it. It might take you a couple of days, maybe a week. Thats not really a long time in the grand scheme of things. And what you learn in that week you will probably keep with you for life.

Don't work only on this song, but equally don't forget about it.

A good nights sleep does wonders. On day two you will be amazed at how much simpler it seems.

Practice slow and with a metronome and you will get it. If you don't have a metronome google "online metronome": there are plenty free ones online which will run through your computer speakers.

Generally, you should pick songs which you like which aren't too complicated. I don't think this tune is too hard even for a beginer. You may not be able to play it at full speed just yet, but thats what the metronome is for. You can go as slow as you need to make it all work, all the notes ringing out properly, not muffles. Better to play it correctly at half speed than try to keep up with CD sloppily.

Goals are a good thing. If you want to learn this, you can do it. You know you are practicing the right things when you try to play something that is just a little too hard for you.

Thanks! My plan is to learn other stuff but still stick with this song and when I feel I'm ready jump head first into it and really try hard (when I feel ready of course) But anyway I've been breaking it down but still am having trouble but I'm getting faster day by day so that's a good sign but it still doesn't sound like the CD sound?

[Mikeman9412@gma]

Personally I think this riff is too hard for a beginner (not tricky in itself, but very fast).
I mean, it's good to get obsessed with something like this, and really go for it, push yourself. But don't get depressed if you can't get it - at least, if you can't get it up to speed. If you can play it at half-tempo, that's an important achievement.
Look for other stuff too.

I will say that you seem to have what it takes to become successful, in the long run. Success comes not from innate talent (if such a thing exists), but from sheer hard work and dogged persistence.
Everything is hard when you start. But if you keep on pushing - and enjoying the process - you will make it, as far as you want to go.
It's important you enjoy the process, otherwise what's the point? It's a mistake to go through pain and drudgery in the hope of enjoying it in the future.
If you're the kind of person who can't wait to pick up the guitar in the morning - and can't stand to put it down at night - (and you sound like you might be) that's the kind of person that becomes a great musician. And even if you don't (if you make some other career choice), well you'll have had fun along the way. That's what it's all about.

Ya, I'll maybe take a break, I really haven't gotten frustrated with it yet so that's a good sign but I'll keep trying! And yeah I can't wait to pick up a guitar and can't put it down once I have one, :)

[fingerpikingood]

the major scale is gold.

that pattern (the pattern you get if you map out on the fretboard all the notes of the major scale) is the same pattern for all the modes. minor and major scale are the same pattern.

it's easiest to describe if you look at the piano.

on the piano if you start on C and play all the white notes, that's major scale C. If on the other hand you start on A and play all the white notes that's A minor.

on the guitar, that means that if you know C major scale you can slide all the notes of C major up one fret and you get C# major. alternatively, also if you play C major scale starting on C you get C major, if you play all those same notes, but start on A you get A minor.

there are 7 different notes in the major scale. if you start the scale on any of these you get what's called a different mode. Minor scale is aeolian mode, major i forget exactly i think it's ionian or maybe dorian, sorry i'm not so hot at the mode names.

all this to say that songs are always in a key (sometimes more than one if there is a key change within the song) the key can be any one of these modes. but it's all the same pattern.

so you find the song you like, find out what key it is in.

basically the key is which one of these patterns works with the song. all the notes of that scale will work with it. chord sequences generally use chords where all of their notes are part of this scale. sometimes they have one that isn't part of it, so during that chord you will find that one note that is part of that scale will cease to work and another one next to it now sounds good.

so knowing this scale, this pattern, is huge.

so if you can find the key of a song, learn the scale for it. this one pattern you're learning is the same for all keys. if you want to see what i mean, go here; http://all-guitar-chords.com/guitar_scales.php

and look at scales for the modes (in no particular order) dorian, ionian, lydian mixolydian, phrygian, aeolian, locrian. and then major and minor, you will see that they are all the same pattern. they are the same pattern but maybe slid over, like you would slide over C major one fret to get C# major. but they are all the same pattern.

if you find the key to the song, you will find a gold mine of notes that work with it. having found that you will be able to experiment with how this pattern works with music behind it, how it sounds. and you will be able to improvise right away. so it's fun to do too. you can even just work on a small section of it.

finding what key a song is is maybe difficult at first, but you can always ask on here what key a song is, if you're having trouble. then you can insert it into the site i showed you and practice a piece of it over the song.

the pentatonic scale is only 5 notes, it is the same pattern as the other one, the Major one and all those other modes i was talking about, minus two notes.

so to me this is a good starting point, because for one it is easier to learn, second you will have less notes to play around with so you will more quickly be able to get a feel for how they sound withing music, and last but not least it sounds really cool, and works real nice.

once you know the key, oncve you know this pattern. you will be able to compare songs so much better. what you learn in one song will be transferrable to another, because the riff you learn or the chord sequence or whatever is always relative to the key you're in.

so instead of learning a riff style 5th fret first string 7th fret first string etc... you would see it more as 1st note of the major scale pattern, second note of major scale pattern, so that way, no matter what key a song is in, you'll always be able to play that lick in it and it will sound good, different a little because of the backdrop behind it, but still cool, unless it's over one of those chords that use notes outside of the key scale.

[Mikeman9412@gma]

O yeah, I already know all that stuff :) I didn't tell you that?

[ChainsawGuitar]

Is that TAB correct?

I'm not talking about the notes or the frets, but is that supposed to be the fingering underneath? Its a bit odd...

Where it says use the fourth finger to doublestop, I find this impossible. Who came up with that?! Its easier to use the third, or the third and fourth IMO

Maybe this is why you find it hard?

[fingerpikingood]

O yeah, I already know all that stuff :) I didn't tell you that?
no, in fact you asked what modes were in another thread.

[Mikeman9412@gma]

Oh yeah, I was unclear but now I really get what they are fully :)