Help me with melodic minor

[bluesking]

I've been battling with trying to incorporate the following 3 scales into my playing:

1.) Melodic Minor
2.) Lydian Dominant
3.) Altered Scale

As all 3 happen to be modes of melodic minor I have initially tried to get the fingerings of this scale learned all across the neck.

Now, something about the fingerings, or perhaps the way I am learning them is really difficult. My fingers just can't seem to get it no matter how hard I try.

Maybe the issue is the lack of a clear anchor point? For example when I play major scale patterns I tend to relate everything to a set of interlocking pentatonic scales. I have had some limited success with anchoring the lydian dominant to the diminished (or dominant) pentatonic shape.

Maybe the issue is lack of clear musical direction. Scale fingerings are obviously only of limited value without the knowledge of how to use them. Its a deadlock though, because my fingers can't get the patterns, I can't relax enough to try to be creative with them...

Maybe its just a case of my backing tracks. At the moment, when I practice the patterns I do so over a static chord of the appropriate type (mMaj7 & dom7). But in most of the music I hear the melodic minor & its modes seem to make only a fleeting appearance (a single bar typically) in a functional progression. Maybe I'm setting myself the wrong context to practice in and I should be practicing over a progression rather than static chords? I initially pressumed that I should start of with a static chord backing track so that I can familiarise my ears with the sounds of the intervals but perhaps this decision is what is holding me back.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

[gersdal]

Maybe its just a case of my backing tracks. At the moment, when I practice the patterns I do so over a static chord of the appropriate type (mMaj7 & dom7). The Lydian dominant should be ok over a dom7 backing. The Altered I think you would be better off practicing over a ii-V-I progression (and using the altered over the V). I've been looking at the Brett Garsed article on the melodic minor mode, and that is quite good in my opinion. http://www.ibreathemusic.com/article/201

My method for learning new scales has always been to write licks, song, riffs, grooves and chord progressions (vamps) stricktly in that scale. It does not always turn out to be great music, but it is a great learning and investigation process. I've got some cool stuff in Lydian dominant somewhere :D

[ChrisJ]

The melodic minor scale is difficult to get under your fingers, it takes a little time to get used to. You will only find one pentatonic scale inside, for example the B minor (D major) pentatonic inside an A melodic minor scale. You really have to take your time starting on one-chord vamps. You are right in thinking that this will help you become used to the sound of the scale.

One thing you might want to consider is rather than mixing it up with the one pentatonic scale that can be found inside, mix it up with the pentatonic scale commonly used for the chord in question, for example when playing over a C9 vamp, mix up C lydian dominant (G melodic minor) with the C minor pentatonic scale.

Or for C7#9, mix up the C altered scale (C#mm) with the Eb minor pentatonic scale (found inside the C#mm scale) and the C minor pentatonic scale. This is a very effective approach for one-chord vamps.

Also try mixing up the scale in progressions. A typical one would be Cmin7-B7#11 (C dorian-B lydian domiant). After that move on to Cmin7-B7#11-Bbmaj7 (C dorian-B lydian domiant-Bb lydian). You will have to do this extremely slowly at first.

Check out this video I did for LD:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTzzxJzuCa8

And the lesson:
http://chrisjuergensen.com/melodic_minor_modes_2_lydiandominant.htm

[bluesking]

You guys rule!!

[JonR]

One thing you might want to consider is rather than mixing it up with the one pentatonic scale that can be found inside, mix it up with the pentatonic scale commonly used for the chord in question, for example when playing over a C9 vamp, mix up C lydian dominant (G melodic minor) with the C minor pentatonic scale. :confused: These two scales are quite different. Do you really mean C minor pent?
(I'm not saying it won't work, only checking what you mean.)
Or for C7#9, mix up the C altered scale (C#mm) with the Eb minor pentatonic scale (found inside the C#mm scale) and the C minor pentatonic scale. This is a very effective approach for one-chord vamps.These are a little closer.
Eb minor pent is a great idea because (as you say) it's a subset of C#/Db melodic minor. It can be combined with C#m arps (but not C# minor pent of course).
I'd still say C minor pent was tricky because it contains F and G - not part of the C altered scale.
Again, I can see that such a scale mix could work, but I think if this about getting to grips with the altered scale specifically, we need to exclude notes that are not part of it.

Another point is that C minor pent is great for a C7#9 working as a "Hendrix chord" - IOW a blues tonic, with an implied perfect 5th. The C altered scale is not (IMO) a great choice there - until or unless the chord is resolving to F (ie acting as a V7).

In jazz, a C7#9 is likely to be a V7, with an implied altered 5th.*
In that case, C altered is the indicated scale. C minor pent may be OK, but it's a bluesy sound that doesn't address the altered nature of the chord.

* In my experience, it's typical jazz shorthand not to tell you about the altered 5th :cool: . OTOH, plain "C7#9" leaves the way open for the HW dim scale, even tho "C7b9" is the usual indicator for that.

In short, we need to look at how a 7#9 is functioning before we choose a scale for it. I've come across one example in jazz of a C7#9 used as a tonic (like a Hendrix chord) - in Kenny Burrell's "Chitlins Con Carne". Burrell treats it as pure blues scale; no sign of altered scale.
There may be others, but the vast majority of C7#9s in jazz charts are V7 chords, normally in minor keys. As such, a C blues scale is not the usual first choice, although I can see it would work.

(Sorry if I'm splitting hairs here... ;) )

Also try mixing up the scale in progressions. A typical one would be Cmin7-B7#11 (C dorian-B lydian domiant). After that move on to Cmin7-B7#11-Bbmaj7 (C dorian-B lydian domiant-Bb lydian). You will have to do this extremely slowly at first.Nothing wrong with that, but I'd suggest beginning with the B7#11-Bb lydian change.
Or B7#11-Bbm, as bII chords are more common in minor keys.
The idea being to hear the role of the lydian dominant chord in resolving to its target.
The preceding ii chord of the key is then an optional addition. (Cm7b5 in the case of Bbm.)

In fact, make it Bb7#11-Am, to start with a common key ;). The Am would be A melodic minor, so this is about switching betwen two melodic minor scales: Fmm and Amm.
Fmm is also the scale used over E7alt of course, which also resolves to Am.

You can even use a melodic minor over the preceding ii chord (as I guess you know ;) ):
Bm7b5 = D melodic minor (B locrian natural 2, or aeolian b5)
Bb7#11 = F melodic minor
Am = A melodic minor

[JonR]

I've been battling with trying to incorporate the following 3 scales into my playing:

1.) Melodic Minor
2.) Lydian Dominant
3.) Altered ScaleThe real trick to the altered scale - as with most superimposed jazz scales - is to see the voice-leading links with the chords either side.
Eg, using (say) E altered over an E7 chord, resolving to A or Am, is all about using half-step chromaticisms between a (probable) preceding Bm7 or Bm7b5 and the following A or Am (including likely 6, maj7 or 9 extensions).

Here's how it works - all the half-step possibilities from chord tones on E7alt (F melodic minor) to Am (A melodic minor):
E7alt Am(6/9 or maj7)

F > E or F#
G > F# or G#
G# > A
A# > A or B
C > BIf resolving to A major, you have an additional couple of half-step options: C or D > C#.

I'm sure you can work out the half-steps from the preceding Bm7 or Bm7b5 too... ;) Those are not as important tho, because the prime dissonance is on the altered dom7. The whole purpose of those added dissonances (b5, #5, b9, #9) is to create expectations of half-step resolutions.

This is underlined by the fact that the tritone sub for a V7 is a bII, a half-step fall to I. The bII chord - a lydian dominant - is barely altered at all; the #11 is the normal 5th of the key. Almost everything else falls a half-step to the tonic. (The significant exception being the b7 of the bII = the 3rd of the V7.)
Eg, - as I mentioned above - a Bb7#11 chord is essentially identical to E7alt: both resolve to A or Am.

In short, don't think "scale" at all (despite what I said above in response to Chris :rolleyes: ). Think melodic voice-leading: esp half-step moves, up or down.

On the subject of melody, another strategy is to have a few licks that incorporate good altered notes along with neat resolutions.

I've posted this several times before, but one of my favourites is the "Cry Me a River" lick:
|-6---4-------------|-----------------------------------------------------
|-------4-----------|-----------------------------------------------------
|----------4--3-----|-----------------------------------------------------
|----------------6--|-----------------------------------------------------
|-------------------|-----------------------------------------------------
|-------------------|-----------------------------------------------------

That's in Ab minor there. (Not exactly melodic minor, but we don't need every note! ;) )
As we know, Ab melodic minor on a G7 is G altered. Resolve it to Cm by dropping the last note by a half-step:
G7#5#9 Cm
|-6---4-------------|-----------------------------------------------------
|-4-----4-----------|4----------------------------------------------------
|-4--------4--3-----|5----------------------------------------------------
|-3--------------6->|5----------------------------------------------------
|-------------------|3----------------------------------------------------
|-3-----------------|-----------------------------------------------------Or maybe up to the 6th (could be on a minor or major chord):
G7#5#9 C6
|-6---4-------------|-----------------------------------------------------
|-4-----4-----------|-----------------------------------------------------
|-4--------4--3-----|-----------------------------------------------------
|-3--------------6->|7----------------------------------------------------
|-------------------|7----------------------------------------------------
|-3-----------------|8----------------------------------------------------And it's a simple change to make the first chord a lydian dominant (the #11, G, is not present in this case, but is implied):
Db9(#11) Cmaj7
|-6---4-------------|-----------------------------------------------------
|-4-----4-----------|5----------------------------------------------------
|-4--------4--3-----|4----------------------------------------------------
|-3--------------6->|5----------------------------------------------------
|-4-----------------|3----------------------------------------------------
|-------------------|-----------------------------------------------------

[bluesking]

JonR, you double-plus rule!!!

Thank you very much. It suddenly seems a great deal clearer!

[ChrisJ]

:confused: These two scales are quite different. Do you really mean C minor pent?
(I'm not saying it won't work, only checking what you mean.)
These are a little closer.
Eb minor pent is a great idea because (as you say) it's a subset of C#/Db melodic minor. It can be combined with C#m arps (but not C# minor pent of course).
I'd still say C minor pent was tricky because it contains F and G - not part of the C altered scale.
Again, I can see that such a scale mix could work, but I think if this about getting to grips with the altered scale specifically, we need to exclude notes that are not part of it.

Of course as a functioning V chord or bVsub the C minor pentatonic scale is not a great choice, I was referring to a one-chord vamp, as John Scofield uses in "Techno" for example. More specifically, mixing up Blues and the the mm mode in question for this type of situation.

C9 = C Blues + C LD
Calt = C Blues + C ALT

MM works well over both static and functioning dominant chords if one prefers to create contrast.

[JonR]

Of course as a functioning V chord or bVsub the C minor pentatonic scale is not a great choice, I was referring to a one-chord vamp, as John Scofield uses in "Techno" for example. More specifically, mixing up Blues and the the mm mode in question for this type of situation.

C9 = C Blues + C LD
Calt = C Blues + C ALT

MM works well over both static and functioning dominant chords if one prefers to create contrast.Point taken. :)

[gersdal]

A great idea for what ChrisJ is mentioning is described in Scott Henderson DVD. If you're playing over a ii-V-I e.g. in C you can play A minor pentatonic over the Dm, Bb monor pentatonic over the G7 (from the altered scale), and then B minor pentatonic over the Cmajor7 (from the lydian scale).

Another way to treat a ii-V-I is E minor pentatonic over the Dm, F minor pentatonic over the G7 (a lot of altered tones, but the C is not in the altered scale), and then E minor pentatonic over the Cmaj7.

This way you may get used to the sound, and still be playing in familiar patterns.

More ideas like this is mentioned in ChrisJ's article on pentatonic scale uses, and in his book "The infinite guitar". Highly recommended!

[gersdal]

Ah, and my Lydian dominant idea over a E7 static vamp. Hope this help you in getting your creativity flowing ;)

[bluesking]

Wow,
Yet more fantastic ideas and advice. I love you guys. I'm feeling real ill at the moment so although I have lots of time to practice these ideas, I don't have much energy. There is enough info here to keep me going for a month at least.

Thanks everyone!

[JonR]

A great idea for what ChrisJ is mentioning is described in Scott Henderson DVD. If you're playing over a ii-V-I e.g. in C you can play A minor pentatonic over the Dm, Bb minor pentatonic over the G7 (from the altered scale), and then B minor pentatonic over the Cmajor7 (from the lydian scale). Very cool! :)