practicing troubles

[jwilliams]

I was never one to really just sit down and practice guitar. I would always end up messing around with a progression or something. Now I have to really buckle down, but I'm noticing some issues.

Mainly, it's that practice on my acoustic is much more difficult than on my electric. I find myself wondering if I should even be practicing on my acoustic, since it might just be that the instrument is limiting me technically. Then again, I figure if I can master it on acoustic, what couldn't I do on electric?

Any suggestions, thoughts, anecdotes, etc

[Jed]

I utilize both: the electric for fluidity and speed, the acoustic for hard-core accuracy and strength. The acoustic has a way of making even the most minor technical problem stand-out load and clear. The electric really encourages me to relax my hand and push myself further with regard to speed, slides and large intervallic jumps.

[bluesking]

Archtop: best of both. Also the worst of both (in all the right ways to improve your playing).

[jwilliams]

Also, anybody else seem to just have "off days"? I seem to be having one today..bad timing, guitar lesson today..toodles.

[bluesking]

Also, anybody else seem to just have "off days"? I seem to be having one today..bad timing, guitar lesson today..toodles.

Yep,
Strangely enough off days seem to occur more often the more I play. Maybe its because my expectations increase or maybe its just accumulated fatigue. I once didn't play any guitar for about 3 months. The first time I picked it up again was for a live gig (yes, we didn't practice for those 3 months). One of the best gigs I ever had.

[Jed]

Archtop: best of both. Also the worst of both (in all the right ways to improve your playing).

http://www.benedettoguitars.com/model_lavenezia.php

I was thinking the same thing. The only thing keeping me from one of these is a divorce, about 26K USD and a few other small things - kids, college tuition, etc

[JonR]

Also, anybody else seem to just have "off days"? I seem to be having one today..bad timing, guitar lesson today..toodles.I sometimes think I have an "off life"... :(

[JazzMick]

every guitar has its own personality, so before practising with it we must identify with the unique properties it has.

string gauge, fretboard width, tone, sustain, size, dead notes? ect....

I find these things are all equally important when assessing my strengths during practice. meaning what?
meaning, i practice acoustic for acoustic sounds and electric for electric.
There is no point practising tunes on an acoustic if your going to gig those tunes on electric. Its all about feel.

peace

[bluesking]

http://www.benedettoguitars.com/model_lavenezia.php

I was thinking the same thing. The only thing keeping me from one of these is a divorce, about 26K USD and a few other small things - kids, college tuition, etc

Crickey. My archtop cost me about £150 ($300). Its a fantastic player and sounds great too. I can't see how any guitar could be worth 26k. Still, that one sure looks pretty.

[bluesking]

every guitar has its own personality, so before practising with it we must identify with the unique properties it has.

string gauge, fretboard width, tone, sustain, size, dead notes? ect....

I find these things are all equally important when assessing my strengths during practice. meaning what?
meaning, i practice acoustic for acoustic sounds and electric for electric.
There is no point practising tunes on an acoustic if your going to gig those tunes on electric. Its all about feel.

peace

Couldn't agree more. I often switch between guitars. I try to play at least 3 different ones a night. It develops your hands for all kinds of situations and causes you to get profficient at all the sounds; humbucker, single coil, archtop, steel string acoustic, nylon string acoustic, clean, distorted etc.

Its one of the best things about our instrument: how many different sounds it can produce. But with this comes a great burden. Each guitar or effect or amp is like playing a completely different instrument. You have to be able to adapt readily to your axe.

[Crossroads]

If the aim is to play electric, then personally I wouldn't bother practicing with an acoustic.

Sure, an acoustic will teach you some slightly different things, and develop some aspects of your playing which are relevant more specifically to acoustic playing. But electric has a completely different set of attributes which are either impossible or rarely attempted on acoustic.

IOW - if you want to play & learn electric, then practice that. Don't practice something else!

I agree that each guitar has it's own character in the way Jazz-Mick & Bluesking say ... mostly various minor deficiencies peculiar to each individual guitar (they are never perfect). But my response to that is, I mainly play the one single guitar which I prefer the feel and sound of, and I try to work with the individual characteristics of that guitar ... ie as opposed to swapping between lots of different guitars (though I do sometimes have to swap them around for practical reasons).

Off-days - yes, strange isn't it!? We all have them. Maybe sometimes it's because some days we just feel better in ourselves (health wise), and other days we're less than 100%.

I hope Jon isn't really cheesed off with life!? If you are ... want to talk about it?

Expensive guitars - the best guitars I have, have always proved to be the cheaper ones. The expensive top name brands have always been poor in my experience (those guitars sit unplayed in their cases - they look great, and the brand name is "impressive" (duh!), but as musical instruments they are inferior to most of the cheaper ones I have).

Practice - yes! That's it really lol :D .

All personal stuff ... so obviously just 2:cents.

Ian.

[JonR]

I was never one to really just sit down and practice guitar. I would always end up messing around with a progression or something. Now I have to really buckle down, but I'm noticing some issues.

Mainly, it's that practice on my acoustic is much more difficult than on my electric. I find myself wondering if I should even be practicing on my acoustic, since it might just be that the instrument is limiting me technically. Then again, I figure if I can master it on acoustic, what couldn't I do on electric?

Any suggestions, thoughts, anecdotes, etcDon't stop using the acoustic just because it's more difficult. That's a reason to keep practising on it. As you say, if you can do it on acoustic, it will be easy on electric.
The comments above (going for electric) are true if that's the only kind of guitar you really want to be proficient on - if you don't care for acoustic guitar much at all.
It's a different kind of instrument in many ways - not least the fact that the control of the sound is largely electronic; your fingers have less to do with it than on acoustic. (OK, your fingers twiddle the knobs, but you know what I mean.) Playing an electric also involves "playing" the amp and effects.

[bluesking]

Expensive guitars - the best guitars I have, have always proved to be the cheaper ones. The expensive top name brands have always been poor in my experience (those guitars sit unplayed in their cases - they look great, and the brand name is "impressive" (duh!), but as musical instruments they are inferior to most of the cheaper ones I have).

Its all about quality control. Cheap guitars have less stringent production tolerances.

This means that out of every 100 cheap guitars, 30 will be terrible, 30 will be mediocre, 30 will be good & 10 will be "really special".

Conversely out of every 100 expensive guitars, 1 will be terrible, 20 will be mediocre, 60 will be good & 19 will be "really special".

If you know what you are looking for, you can find a guitar of equal quality for a fraction of the price of a top model. Most people I know do pickup swaps etc. anyway, so it hardly matters what the electronics are like in an electric. Its just about how it is put together.

I have started to think that expensive guitars are actually designed for more amateur musicians, who can't be bothered/don't have the ability to find a decent & cheap guitar. They pay simply for the lower risk of getting a duffer. There is very little risk of someone who knows what they are looking for of ever getting a duffer!

[Crossroads]

Its all about quality control. Cheap guitars have less stringent production tolerances.

This means that out of every 100 cheap guitars, 30 will be terrible, 30 will be mediocre, 30 will be good & 10 will be "really special".

Conversely out of every 100 expensive guitars, 1 will be terrible, 20 will be mediocre, 60 will be good & 19 will be "really special".

Yeah, that's what should happen. That's what anyone would expect. But in my experience (with hundreds of guitars), it definitely does not!

What generally happens when you pay more, from the few well known really big names, is that you get more expensive fittings (which are by no means always better anyway). And the wood should be more carefully selected, but again in my experience it's very rarely, if ever, selected for anything except flashier grain appearance (I'm not talking about preference for different types of wood...ash, maple, mahogany, basswood, alder etc...that rarely if ever determines cost).

The one thing you absolutely should get when you pay top price, is a clearly better standard of playing quality in terms of finishing on the frets, and low action without buzzing or dead spots, clear and even tone on all frets across all strings. But again, in my experience there is almost no correlation there with price. However, having said that, it does vary a bit with different makers ... a few makers do seem to be slightly better on average with their top-line models vs. their cheaper range ... but even then, the playing difference is often debatable.



If you know what you are looking for, you can find a guitar of equal quality for a fraction of the price of a top model. Most people I know do pickup swaps etc. anyway, so it hardly matters what the electronics are like in an electric. Its just about how it is put together.

I have started to think that expensive guitars are actually designed for more amateur musicians, who can't be bothered/don't have the ability to find a decent & cheap guitar. They pay simply for the lower risk of getting a duffer. There is very little risk of someone who knows what they are looking for of ever getting a duffer!

Yep!


Ian.

[BONZZ]

Its all about quality control. Cheap guitars have less stringent production tolerances.

This means that out of every 100 cheap guitars, 30 will be terrible, 30 will be mediocre, 30 will be good & 10 will be "really special".

Conversely out of every 100 expensive guitars, 1 will be terrible, 20 will be mediocre, 60 will be good & 19 will be "really special".

If you know what you are looking for, you can find a guitar of equal quality for a fraction of the price of a top model. Most people I know do pickup swaps etc. anyway, so it hardly matters what the electronics are like in an electric. Its just about how it is put together.

I have started to think that expensive guitars are actually designed for more amateur musicians, who can't be bothered/don't have the ability to find a decent & cheap guitar. They pay simply for the lower risk of getting a duffer. There is very little risk of someone who knows what they are looking for of ever getting a duffer! how much would a guitar have to cost for you to consider it cheap? I realise we all earn different amounts and have different responsibilities etc so all our budgets will differ, so how much is cheap?

[bluesking]

how much would a guitar have to cost for you to consider it cheap? I realise we all earn different amounts and have different responsibilities etc so all our budgets will differ, so how much is cheap?

£500 would be the highest price I would class as a cheap guitar. That doesn't mean you need to spend £500 of course. As I say above, I have a great "Stagg" Archtop (yes, they are the company that make all those mic stands!) which cost me £150 second-hand.

My favourite strat is Mexican.

My favourite superstrat cost me £150 S/H.

My favourite acoustic cost £300 new.

When I say favourite, I do mean "favourite out of all that I have ever played" rather than "favourite for the price".

I've played all the top consumber brands (Gibson, Fender, PRS) and don't find anything special in them over a good quality cheap guitar. I've played a lot of boutique guitars, and these almost always disapoint (especially at the prices they expect).

The only place where more money seems to keep getting you better kit is with amps.

[bluesking]

The one thing you absolutely should get when you pay top price, is a clearly better standard of playing quality in terms of finishing on the frets, and low action without buzzing or dead spots, clear and even tone on all frets across all strings. But again, in my experience there is almost no correlation there with price.

Absolutely. You would think this would be one of the main reasons to pay the higher price. Of course all of that stuff is temporary anyway. If I get a cheap or an expensive guitar, it needs a re-fret within 2 years anyway.

I always believe you should know your instrument both musically & mechanically. The only thing I would use a tech for nowadays is full-refrets & finish work. I never have any finish work done anyway, I like my dings, I like my guitars to feel like workhorses, not like presentation pieces. Fret leveling can be a bit tricky too of course, but anything else can be done easily at home with just a few basic tools & a bit of reading + common sense.

[BONZZ]

£500 would be the highest price I would class as a cheap guitar. That doesn't mean you need to spend £500 of course. As I say above, I have a great "Stagg" Archtop (yes, they are the company that make all those mic stands!) which cost me £150 second-hand.

My favourite strat is Mexican.

My favourite superstrat cost me £150 S/H.

My favourite acoustic cost £300 new.

When I say favourite, I do mean "favourite out of all that I have ever played" rather than "favourite for the price".

I've played all the top consumber brands (Gibson, Fender, PRS) and don't find anything special in them over a good quality cheap guitar. I've played a lot of boutique guitars, and these almost always disapoint (especially at the prices they expect).

The only place where more money seems to keep getting you better kit is with amps. Unfortunately I am guilty of buying my last 2 guitars off the internet, i figured whatever comes my way i should be able to adapt to , part and parcel of learning the guitar i thought , doh! PS my first electric guitar cost me 6 subbuteo teams , the Beatles white, red and blue compilation albums and the strings off my accoustic guitar! it was white 3 gold (coloured) pick ups shaped like a les paul and was called a Maya. my mate had a kay , and i am almost certain there was a stagg something somewhere. cheers

[BONZZ]

I find no matter how much I practice it has a domino effect, one door closes another ten open up. If I feel ive got something down i move on to something else etc only to return to the beginning to find what i thought i had learned needs practicing again, it gets to the point were you feel as if you are just increasing your practice schedule more and more but not being able to increase the time you have available to cope, this seems to create a pressure/ urgency to be progressing faster than i am able to and at worst leading to frustration and disappointment.Theres just so much to learn,its addictive, theory adds to it ,its a puzzle, wouldnt change it for the world, i am trying to accept its just not easy! SIMPLE. at the moment I am moving into the fascinating world of effects pedals so i do expect some more ups and downs as its something else i am new to. had i stuck to just playing the accoustic i think i would probably be a better guitarist than i am ie less distractions, as for now though i will probably only pick up the accoustic when i snap a few strings.PS appologies for not introducing myself previously. :o

[bluesking]

I find no matter how much I practice it has a domino effect, one door closes another ten open up. If I feel ive got something down i move on to something else etc only to return to the beginning to find what i thought i had learned needs practicing again, it gets to the point were you feel as if you are just increasing your practice schedule more and more but not being able to increase the time you have available to cope, this seems to create a pressure/ urgency to be progressing faster than i am able to and at worst leading to frustration and disappointment.Theres just so much to learn,its addictive, theory adds to it ,its a puzzle, wouldnt change it for the world, i am trying to accept its just not easy! SIMPLE. at the moment I am moving into the fascinating world of effects pedals so i do expect some more ups and downs as its something else i am new to. had i stuck to just playing the accoustic i think i would probably be a better guitarist than i am ie less distractions, as for now though i will probably only pick up the accoustic when i snap a few strings.PS appologies for not introducing myself previously. :o

No worries mate, good to have you on board.

There is good practice & there is bad practice. You can forever learning hundreds of licks or scales and be no better off than when you began. Depending on what you want to achieve you may need to take a different tack.

I personally work on two things:

1.) Song writting in the form of chord progressions & harmonising melodies
2.) Improvisation abilities for soloing and melody construction.

All practice I do can be catagorised into these two top-level ideas.

I went through a period of learning all sorts of scales & chords in different positions all along the neck. I was surprised how little this improved my playing. The improvement was no better than I could have expected from simply working on finger strength & agility for an equivallent time. Why? Because it didn't improve my musicianship.

What do I do nowadays? I learn chord progressions to songs I like. I learn licks/melodies I like.

There is no point storming through these kind of things. Simply learning how to play a lick is not enough. As you mention, what you have learnt falls out of your head 2 or 3 licks later.

You need to take the time to ruminate on each lick & progression. Savour it. Play it in every key. Play it in every possible position within each key. Apply it to improvisation over a CD. If you learnt a smooth jazz line, see if you can apply it anywhere in a hard-rock solo. Really milk each thing you learn.

This makes sure the concept stays put in your brain. Spending a whole day's practice on one lick is much more productive than rushing through 20 licks just enough to be able to play them at their original tempo.

Its a hard mental battle though. It feels like spending a whole day on a lick means it would take you forever to learn those 20 licks on your to-do list. But in reality it is much more productive because it teaches you about musicality, timbre, timing, rhythm.... all the stuff that gets left behind when you fail to steal ideas well. Its allways about theft. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Once you learn 3 licks of a similar sort you can create an almost infinite number of licks in that style without any difficult thought or practice.

[BONZZ]

No worries mate, good to have you on board.

There is good practice & there is bad practice. You can forever learning hundreds of licks or scales and be no better off than when you began. Depending on what you want to achieve you may need to take a different tack.

I personally work on two things:

1.) Song writting in the form of chord progressions & harmonising melodies
2.) Improvisation abilities for soloing and melody construction.

All practice I do can be catagorised into these two top-level ideas.

I went through a period of learning all sorts of scales & chords in different positions all along the neck. I was surprised how little this improved my playing. The improvement was no better than I could have expected from simply working on finger strength & agility for an equivallent time. Why? Because it didn't improve my musicianship.

What do I do nowadays? I learn chord progressions to songs I like. I learn licks/melodies I like.

There is no point storming through these kind of things. Simply learning how to play a lick is not enough. As you mention, what you have learnt falls out of your head 2 or 3 licks later.

You need to take the time to ruminate on each lick & progression. Savour it. Play it in every key. Play it in every possible position within each key. Apply it to improvisation over a CD. If you learnt a smooth jazz line, see if you can apply it anywhere in a hard-rock solo. Really milk each thing you learn.

This makes sure the concept stays put in your brain. Spending a whole day's practice on one lick is much more productive than rushing through 20 licks just enough to be able to play them at their original tempo.

Its a hard mental battle though. It feels like spending a whole day on a lick means it would take you forever to learn those 20 licks on your to-do list. But in reality it is much more productive because it teaches you about musicality, timbre, timing, rhythm.... all the stuff that gets left behind when you fail to steal ideas well. Its allways about theft. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Once you learn 3 licks of a similar sort you can create an almost infinite number of licks in that style without any difficult thought or practice. thanks a lot. I will try some of your suggestions asap. ie tonight.

[JonR]

If I get a cheap or an expensive guitar, it needs a re-fret within 2 years anyway.Yikes!
I've never had any of my guitars re-fretted.
My Guild acoustic is 35 years old, I've had my 60s Epi Casino 24 years (and it wasn't newly fretted then), and my 70s Fender Tele Custom 30 years.
There are maybe some fret wear issues with the Casino, up the top end, but nothing I worry about (doesn't affect my playing noticeably).

Do you have a really heavy touch? Or do I have a really light one? Or maybe I just don't play as much as you? :rolleyes:

Or is this just an example of YMMV? ;)

I mean I can see signs of wear on all of them (if I squint at them real close) but they all play fine, no fret buzzing. And I use quite a low action on all of them.

[JonR]

I personally work on two things:

1.) Song writing in the form of chord progressions & harmonising melodies
2.) Improvisation abilities for soloing and melody construction.

...

What do I do nowadays? I learn chord progressions to songs I like. I learn licks/melodies I like.
This also sums up my "strategy" precisely.
I never "practice", in the sense of working on technical issues. (Although I suspect I probably should...)
I learn and transcribe songs, I fool around with chords, improvising and composing my own tunes.
That's about it.

Of course, I practised a hell of a lot in my first few years, when building my technique. But even then, it mostly consisted of the same thing: trying to learn stuff off records, getting my fingers to do it through constant repetition. Learning theory (unintentionally) by reading songbooks. And fooling around making up my own stuff.
I never consciously thought about "developing my technique", never worked on scale patterns or fingering exercises. Just kept trying to play tunes I wanted to play.
Knowledge of chords and the fretboard developed naturally, through trial and error; and using a capo, which helped map the neck.

[bluesking]

Yikes!
I've never had any of my guitars re-fretted.
My Guild acoustic is 35 years old, I've had my 60s Epi Casino 24 years (and it wasn't newly fretted then), and my 70s Fender Tele Custom 30 years.
There are maybe some fret wear issues with the Casino, up the top end, but nothing I worry about (doesn't affect my playing noticeably).

Do you have a really heavy touch? Or do I have a really light one? Or maybe I just don't play as much as you? :rolleyes:

Or is this just an example of YMMV? ;)

I mean I can see signs of wear on all of them (if I squint at them real close) but they all play fine, no fret buzzing. And I use quite a low action on all of them.

I'm not sure. I do have a pretty heavy touch. I don't let anyone set up my guitars. Everyone always sets the action too low. If I can't pluck a string at full strength without too much buzz I can't let rip.

I think the main reason I get so much wear is that I use really thick picks. I use silver plectrums a lot of the time and V-Picks otherwise. There is no give at all in either one. This means my left hand has to work a lot harder at keeping things fretted. I guess I must be pressing pretty hard with my left hand....

Just to clarify, I don't refret just because things start to look worn. I refret when my action suffers.

Most guitars come with fretwire that is much too small for me anyway. I like jumbo frets. Plus, regardless of how expensive or cheap a new guitar is, the fretwire is usually sub-par compared to the stuff I use for refrets. Depending on specifics, any new guitar I get needs a refret after 1-2 years. After the first refret it will need a level or possibly a refret every 2/3 years.

[JonR]

I'm not sure. I do have a pretty heavy touch. I don't let anyone set up my guitars. Everyone always sets the action too low. If I can't pluck a string at full strength without too much buzz I can't let rip.

I think the main reason I get so much wear is that I use really thick picks. I use silver plectrums a lot of the time and V-Picks otherwise. There is no give at all in either one. This means my left hand has to work a lot harder at keeping things fretted. I guess I must be pressing pretty hard with my left hand....Right.
I probably don't "let rip" like you do. Not on electric anyhow. I do get fretbuzz if I do - so, er, I don't. :rolleyes: (If I play that hard, the strings tend to go sharp anyhow.)
What string gauges do you use?

(On this topic, I have a close up pic of Django Reinhardt's left hand, and his guitar - the old Macaferri - is a mess: grime between the frets, and huge flat areas on the fretwire under the strings. And you can just tell those are damned heavy strings, and his left hand finger muscles are strong as hell... Clearly, he never bothered about re-frets. But then I guess he was Django...)

[bluesking]

What string gauges do you use?


11s droptuned (Eb) on my strats, 11 standard tuned on my archtop. 12 standard on the acoustic.

I used to use 12s dropped on my electrics, but it slowed me down too much (not that I'm really about speed or anything, but it was just too much for me...)

[Crossroads]

Jon obviously has a lighter touch than some of us ;) .... on my main 2 or 3 guitars, I'll also go through a set of new frets in a year or two...sometimes in just 6 to 9 months.

Actually, it's not so bad that it's unplayable without a re-fret, but after that time the frets are looking badly worn, and I prefer not to inflict further damage.

But instead of getting a re-fret, I prefer to just buy another used guitar with little or no fret wear (not much more expensive than getting a re-fret). I'm using 9's on everything by the way (I do play a lot though, obviously).

Re. what BONZZ was saying about feeling the learning curve just get's steeper and steeper, and more and more complex and diverse. I think that may be just a sign that you've reached an important leaning stage ... I think we all experience exactly that feeling ... where we think we've achieved a lot, but then we go a little further and a whole new set of hurdles appear ...

... I don't think it really ever ends, unless you make a deliberate cut-off and say "OK, I know I can play this way, in this particular style and genre (eg blues or metal), but now I'm not going to move into any other areas or techniques, just stick with what I have & slowly perfect that".

My practice schedule is probably very specific to me, so I won't bother describing all the bit's of that. But, in addition to what Bluesking & Jon were saying about practicing songs/licks and chord progressions ... I also practice a lot improvising in different styles over various backing tracks ... that forces you to play in time, to invent smart melody lines, to work rhythmically with various scales & arps all over the instrument, to identify and target chord tones, etc.

But I also practice improvising and phrasing separately from the backing tracks, to work with less familiar scales and less familiar ideas, eg more jazzy ideas...for which (to be really specific) I've spent a lot of time working with the DVD's from Scott Henderson and Don Mock (I've recommended them here many times before).

Does that work? Does it make you a better player? Yes, undoubtedly ... but you have to practice the stuff a lot (at least 4 hours a day).

Ian.

[fingerpikingood]

On my acoustic i currently use mediums which are the heaviest gauge you can find in average music shops. but if i could get my hands on heavier ones i would.

with heavier strings they are tighter, which makes for better harmonics, better finger tapping, and louder tone with a lighter touch. I also sometimes would lose my high E off my fretboard with bends on light gauge strings.

Idk, for my fender i always liked the lighter strings, and since improving alot with acoustic i've not tried heavier ones, but i'm not sure how i'd like that, mostly because i'm not much of a strummer and more of a bender when it comes to electric, but for my acoustic i'll take the heaviest gauge i can get my hands on.

[ChrisJ]

Refrets: It really depend on how many guitars you have. Obviously if you play one guitar all the time, you are going to need new frets or at least some fret work done every few years. I have about a dozen guitars and go through periods of a few months playing one or the other so once every several years seems enough. It also depends on the size of your frets. I use jumbos which are like bass frets so it takes a while to wear grooves in them.

Practice: The reason many aspiring musicians practice and practice and never seem to get anywhere is because they often forget the most important step in the process, the 3rd to be exact. In order:

1. Learning whatever it is through practice. In other words the technique or mechanics of whatever it is. Like new chord voicings or scales.

2. Conceptualizing it. This means that once you can play it, learning what its uses are. Figuring out how it can be used and how it can be manipulated to work under in different situations. For example, in our first step we learn a phrase in C major. The second step would be to figure out how to play it in C minor or how to play in G major. Or how to rearrange it to work over the ii chord (dorian) in C major rather than over the tonic chord, etc..

3. Getting it into your playing. This is the most overlooked aspect of practice and without this, the other two steps lead to nil. You have to make a conscious effort to incorporate the scale, chord voicing, phrase, or whatever into a musical situation.

This is why I constantly tell me students to practice with tracks because it forces them to do all three of the steps. A metronome, although it has a place in one's practice schedule, will not help you much with step 3. It may help you with step 1, but considering you can work out the technical aspect of whatever you are working on while practicing to a real progression with a groove, I prefer my students do it that way.

Many students think that once they are done with step 1 (and maybe 2), the work is done and can't figure out why they dont seem to improve. They are pretty much wasting all their practice time.

That is also why I tell my students not to bother with all that chromatic warm up crap. It seems better to warm up with something you need to remember rather than something you don't.

I would venture to sat that practicing a zillion chromatic licks will not help you become better at improvising using the major scale than practicing the major scale certainly would.

And I would also venture to say that practicing the major scale to a metronome will not make you near as good as playing a solo using the major scale as practicing the major scale to a rhythm section track.

I say it over and over and still catch my students practicing silly chromatic licks to a metronome. And when they get up on stage, they play nothing musical. And then they ask me why they sound like crap. And I say it is because they keep practicing sill chromatic licks to a metronome and..................

[JazzMick]

" And I would also venture to say that practicing the major scale to a metronome will not make you near as good as playing a solo using the major scale as practicing the major scale to a rhythm section track. "

I would have to disagree with that to an extent. For me, practice of this sort is usually balanced equally between backings and metronome/or silence. Simply for the fact that backings have a set harmony and it is easy to get sucked into that sound and feel as though your being melodic, when you actually aren't. I should point out, I'm speaking in terms of non diatonic progressions(where 'playing the changes' is a bit more important) and not just a Gmaj vamp. So It seems, to me anyway, that being able to pull off a convincing solo with no backing what so ever is just as, if not more, valuable than being able to do it over a recorded track. As for the more straight forward rock/metal style backings go, maybe It's a bit less important. I wouldn't know... I never play that kind of thing.

Strangely I find it harder to play over 32 bars of 1 chord than 60 chords in the same time span.. Go figure.

[ChrisJ]

Simply for the fact that backings have a set harmony and it is easy to get sucked into that sound and feel as though your being melodic, when you actually aren't.

The trick is to change everything up constantly. Besides, if you sound and feel as though you are being melodic, you probably are being melodic, which is the goal. I mean no listener would say to themselves, he plays and sounds melodic but he is tricking us by playing a solo to chord changes and rhythm.

But I can assume by your post and by your name JazzMick, that you play Jazz which would make me assume that you have taken the time to be able to play over changes. You have to remember, and take it from someone who has been teaching at some of the best known institutions in the world, that most guitar players cannot play over changes. Which is exactly why I say that a metronome is not near as important as some kind of track (like Jamey Aebersold or a sequenced track).

Think about it this way, what if you were a beginner and wanted to learn the Blues? Would you achieve better results practicing the minor and major pentatonic scale to a metronome or practicing them to Blues changes. One would assume that you could reach your goal much faster by practicing to the changes. This really goes for any style, yet most aspiring guitarists tend to focus on BPM, when as any experienced musician could attest to, making music from these scales is a much more time consuming process.

Don't get me wrong now, I'm not saying a metronome is useless (although bass great Jeff Berlin says it is), I think a metronome is very important to practice to, in order to develop ones inner clock. I'm just suggesting that musicality needs playing experience and the closest thing you can get to playing experience is tracks unless you can hire a rhythm section to play changes for you. Playing with a metronome is really nothing like playing music, it lack everything other then tempo.

[JazzMick]

I probably came off a bit negative in that last post.

Maybe I should elaborate a bit. Even for beginners who are just learning to jam out pentatonic's over a blues progression. It is my opinion that if they can spend say 5 minutes jamming over a backing and then 5 minutes jamming over a metronome(set to the basic pulse of that tune) whilst trying to feel the groove created by a backing track. They would get a whole lot more out of it then simply counting on a backing track to 'show them' where the groove is.

Both are equally important. I just find that If you can work toward creating your own mental rhythm section you will ultimately be a better musician. Not that I'm claiming to be a master of this, It's just something that has been working for me.

Anyway. xD

[bluesking]

Strangely I find it harder to play over 32 bars of 1 chord than 60 chords in the same time span.. Go figure.

Yup! 32 bars of many chords is hard on the brain & fingers. 32 bars of one chord is hard on the imagination. You can learn brain & fingers pretty easily compared to "learning how to imagine"!

[JonR]

Jon obviously has a lighter touch than some of us ;) .... on my main 2 or 3 guitars, I'll also go through a set of new frets in a year or two...sometimes in just 6 to 9 months.

Actually, it's not so bad that it's unplayable without a re-fret, but after that time the frets are looking badly worn, and I prefer not to inflict further damage.

But instead of getting a re-fret, I prefer to just buy another used guitar with little or no fret wear (not much more expensive than getting a re-fret). I'm using 9's on everything by the way (I do play a lot though, obviously). While we're sharing this somewhat OT gear information...

I use 10s on my Casino and Tele, and 11s on my Guild acoustic. I used to use 12s on the Guild, up to a few years ago, but felt the smoother feel and easier bending of 11s more than made up for the minimal reduction in volume and tone. I play mostly fingerstyle on it - not chord bashing, and actually not much bending either.
In contrast, many years ago, I began with 9s on electrics (might have even used 8s in the early days), but eventually got fed up with their weediness. I made a slow transition to 10s - keeping a 16 3rd for ease of bending, until my fingers strengthened.
I occasionally use flatwound 11s on one of the electrics if doing jazz (not very often).

Just to repeat: I use the Guild all the time for teaching, and it's one of my main practice guitars. It was last re-fretted 30 years ago, after a spurned gf attacked it with scissors (in my absence). :(
I use the Casino for rock/blues gigs (average one a week), but rarely touch it between gigs. Bought 2nd-hand 25 years ago. Not re-fretted in that time.
I use the Tele even less. It can sit in its case for months untouched! Bought 2nd-hand 30 years ago, never re-fretted. (It's a beautiful guitar to play, perfect intonation, but the Casino sounds so much better, even tho its tuning is less reliable...)
(I also have a nylon-string Aria electro-acoustic which I noodle around on.)

For those of you not familiar with how I play (and who want to be!):
http://www.myspace.com/jonpriley
Broonzy and Oily Rag are the Guild F30 (recycling some trad blues formulas, approaching - and occasionally exceeding - the limits of my chops);
30 Minutes is the Aria (the kind of noodling I tend to do instead of "practising");
Refractions of You is the Casino, somewhere in there (a "proper jazz composition" ;) ) - not sounding its best I have to say. :(

[JazzMick]

Yup! 32 bars of many chords is hard on the brain & fingers. 32 bars of one chord is hard on the imagination. You can learn brain & fingers pretty easily compared to "learning how to imagine"!

Couldn't have put it better myself!

JonR- I dig your oily rag :) will listen to the rest later on.

[Crossroads]

While we're sharing this somewhat OT gear information...
Yeah, it is a bit OT (& gear related), and largely my fault I think.:rolleyes:

I use 10s on my Casino and Tele, and 11s on my Guild acoustic. I used to use 12s on the Guild, up to a few years ago, but felt the smoother feel and easier bending of 11s more than made up for the minimal reduction in volume and tone. I play mostly fingerstyle on it - not chord bashing, and actually not much bending either.
In contrast, many years ago, I began with 9s on electrics (might have even used 8s in the early days), but eventually got fed up with their weediness. I made a slow transition to 10s - keeping a 16 3rd for ease of bending, until my fingers strengthened.
I occasionally use flatwound 11s on one of the electrics if doing jazz (not very often). ...

40 years ago when I first started playing, I had no idea about the availability of different string gauges. Afaik, at that time very few aspiring young players even realised you could buy different string gauges ... we just went to the shop and asked for a new set of strings ... I think that meant I mostly got Rotosound 10's.

A bit later I started reading "Guitar" magazine, and saw interviews with famous guitarists claiming to use different brands and different gauges. At different times well known players claimed to use either very light, or very heavy strings ... so there were different years when each of those options became fashionable ... which first lead me try 8's for a couple of years, and then up to 12's for a few years, according to what was supposed to be favoured by famous players.

Frankly, all I ever found was that 8's broke too easily, and anything above 10 was just pointlessly hard work...I never found heavier gauges sounded any better (on electric).

Fast forward 30 years - on electric, for me, the obvious choice now is a standard set of 9's ... 10 and 11 are just pointlessly hard work, and to me they actually sound slightly dead on the top 2 strings. So, by that long process of elimination, I now use D'addario 9's on everything.


Just to repeat: I use the Guild all the time for teaching, and it's one of my main practice guitars. It was last re-fretted 30 years ago, after a spurned gf attacked it with scissors (in my absence).
I use the Casino for rock/blues gigs (average one a week), but rarely touch it between gigs. Bought 2nd-hand 25 years ago. Not re-fretted in that time.
I use the Tele even less. It can sit in its case for months untouched! Bought 2nd-hand 30 years ago, never re-fretted. (It's a beautiful guitar to play, perfect intonation, but the Casino sounds so much better, even tho its tuning is less reliable...)
(I also have a nylon-string Aria electro-acoustic which I noodle around on.)

The Guild sounds like a really lovely guitar. Though presumably the scissor wielding gf did more damage to the wood rather than the metal frets.

Over the decades I've picked up & kept about 20 different guitars, inc. a couple of relatively expensive 1970's Gibson and Fender models (I think they were in that photo of my old Marshall combo, if you remember that). But I never use stuff like that now. Nowadays I far prefer 24-fret shred-type models, simply because they are the most versatile across a range of styles ... and to be honest, they just play better and sound better than all the others.

Until recently I was mostly using an Ibanez RG1550, and before that a Charvel 650xl, which replaced an older Jackson ... all those have various replacement DiMarzio pups. But recently I bought a bog standard 1999 Ibanez PGM-30, which turned out to be exceptional in every way (and also feather light), so I mostly play that now ... I've been playing that for about 2 months now, and the frets have gone from "as new", to very obviously grooved and worn ... if I carry on like that for 6 months, then it will either be approaching a re-fret, or more likely I'll just look in the meantime for another one in relatively un-played condition.

Ian.

[Jed]

Nice post ChrisJ. Certainly many of us are guilty of practicing and not going the distance to your #3. I've never worried about the chromatic warm-up exercises but I did get your point just the same. Well said.

cheers,

[Crossroads]

I really agree with Chris on the question of metronome vs. backing tracks or drum machine -

- just for practicing scales, then a metronome is simpler and more direct. But to practice improvising, in time with real music, it seems to me backing tracks or a drum machine are required.

I don't think J.Williams has said any more about his question on acoustic vs. electric., but if in the end the question is really more about what to practice and how to practice, then I think the vital thing is to know what your goals are, and to be really clear about aiming for that.

But just clarifying the goal is not enough. How are you going to get there? What elements are you going to practice to achieve the goal? Specifically which exercises & which music are you actually going to practice? Where are you going to get that practice material from? How much time do you think it will require practicing according to that plan each day?

IOW - you have to have a clear and detailed plan. And you have to stick to it!

Ian.

[fingerpikingood]

I've never used a metronome. I find backing track is the way to go. it allows you to practice scales if you want, i don't find it a problem to just focus on the rhythm and use the beat for a metronome, I sometimes even ignore the backign track completely and practice my scale at a faster rate for a bit and then go back to it. what else is awesome with a backing track is you can also practice your scales and stuff on a swing beat. on interesting rhythmic patterns. stuff that imo a metronome can't really provide in terms of rhythmic framework.

and you can quickly and easily go into solo mode, and then back to scales a bit for a part. or anything.

the only downside compared to a metronome for me, is that really for backing tracks i find if you want to change tempo you need a difference song. which is not such a big deal because you're only going to play real songs. but you'll need a library of different ones instead of just a metronome.

but even at that, you could practice 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32, triplets, all on one tune at one tempo, so that's alot of different speeds right there.



basically, imo, a backing track IS a metronome, and much more.

as for a metronome being useless i think it's different for different people.

i've always been able to tell immediately if i was on beat or not, i never needed to do the counting thing, and i never needed a metronome.

I in fact can't stand them because they are so cold and rigid and always on the quarter beats the same. kind of like house music except no other structure. and the tone always sucks. it's little more than an annoying noise that rings on constant rhythm and the only way to get rid of it is to play at the same rhythm it is. which also sucks about it.

if i want to all of a sudden practice a scale faster 3 times, and then slow down again once, i would need to change the bpms on my metronome every time. whereas without one, i can choose to practice at any speed as many times as i want and go back and forth to different bpms at my leisure.

so for me, i'm with that bass player. they are useless.