Fed up with my playing, do I accept mediocrity? How do I get BETTER!?

[6StringShredder]

Heres the deal...

Ive been playing for 4 years now. I've come a long way (self taught), but I am not satisfied with my playing at all. I have terrible hand position, picking (fast downpicks, my alt pick is good), and when I solo I just head for a nice pentatonic box.

I've watched instructional video tapes from George Lynch, Ywingvie (sp), and a few others, but I am just clueless as to how they move their fingers that fast and effortlessly. I want to develop a fast fluid style but just dont know where to start.

My style is mainly metal and 80s 90s rock. I would like to develop a meaner style and solo technique. Are these guys like Lynch et al just natural talents, or is that something anyone can work up to? It seems like everything I try to do requires 1000s of attempts even to get it right at a slow speed.

Thanks

[6StringShredder]

followup:

What should I practice: licks, scales, songs, exercises, focusing on the mechanics, etc?

Right now all I do is try to learn songs (most popular songs on the radio, but I know some Van Halen, Slayer, Metallica), I noodle around with the minor scale patterns, and try to write heavy chunky power chord stuff.

Basically I want to get really good really fast, but I need a plan of attack. Also what about lessons? I've heard bad things about lessons from music stores. What I need to find is a Ywingvie (sp) that lives near me and is willing to teach me stuff.

Thanks again.

[EricV]

Hi there, and welcome.

Ok... how do I start ?
One thing that you always have to remember when you listen to and watch yer role-models / favorite players is... it took those guys years to get that good...
It´s an extremely time-consuming process, and there are no shortcuts. Some of them might be a bit more talented and might hav eprogressed a bit faster, but for all of them, it took a few years to get where they are. That might sound frustrating, but it shouldn´t be.
Instead, you should let that motivate you to pick up your guitar right now and work on it.

So you wanna get fast... well, select some ( SOME ! ) material, a few basic exercises ( say, soime of the technique articles available here at ibreathe, or say the first Paul Gilbert-video ), get a metronome and work on it.
Set the metronome to a slow tempo, and work one or two exercises up to speed.
If you don´t like your picking technique or your right hand technique in general, try to find out how to change and improve it. Watch some vids or take a look at some pics of guys with a good picking-technique, and try to hodl the pick and use it the way they do.
Always remember that trying a differen picking technique for only a day or two is not enough. It took Paul Gilbert about 6 months to get from anchored picking to the floating hand...
Start with the basic techniques, and start out slow, even if you have to take a step backwards. If you have learned something thewrong way, you have to invest twice as much time, since you have to "unlearn it" and then learn it again the right way. But it´s worth the effort.
If you´re really in a rut, I´d recommend to get a teacher. I know that some people complain about it, or do not recommend taking lessons. But you might luck out, and find someone who can play the way you wanna play and can show you the way.
What´s so cool about a good teacher is not only that he can motivate you and push you into directions you weren´t even aware of yet, but he can actually show you exactly how something is done... if you read and hear about how to execute fast picking, it might help, but to see someone do it, and have that someone watch you and tell you what to pay attention for can be way more helpful.
Take one step at a time. Work on basic picking- and legato licks, and work them up to speed before you try others. Take one pattern of one scale (i.e. 3nPS-scale ) and use it to practise, don´t try to learn 29 scales at once.
Try to analyze yourself to see what needs work, and then work on that. And don´t get frustrated. Remember that it takes time, and that on some days it works better than on others. If you´re frustrated or angry or unpatient, it will be even more difficult.
Hope this helps
Eric

[min7b5]

Get a good teacher. Also, check in with how much pressure you are using. You should be able to see light under your left hand fingers. That is to say, don't press the string down to the wood, just make light contact with the tops of the frets. The trick is staying that relaxed when you're trying hard. But again, any good guitar teacher is going to go over basic techniques stuff like this.

[Bongo Boy]

Originally posted by EricV
It took Paul Gilbert about 6 months to get from anchored picking to the floating hand...I'm SO glad you mentioned this. The desire to 'get really good really fast' is just our culture speaking. Trying to float that arm for the first time makes you ask yourself a) do I really believe it's worth the effort, and b) am I willing to stay the course long enough to find out if it really is?

Several here have said it before--but to me it's worth repeating. It has GOT to be about the journey---NOT the destination. If you knew what the destination was and actually reached it, your life as a musician would probably be pretty much over at that point.

Really good is relative. Really fast is relative. Really rich is relative. Really successful is relative. Really bad is relative.

Really having fun is NOT relative. It's a place you can absolutely be.

[6StringShredder]

as far as my picking hand goes, i've corrected several flaws already. Here are some of them:

1) used to hold the pick with three fingers (thumb, index, and middle) the middle finger was sort of a brace for the pick. Now I pick with index and thumb.

2) After holding the pick with just my thumb and 1st finger, I noticed I was holding my other 3 fingers out. Now I curl them into my palm.

3) I used to anchor, but have been playing floating for about 1.5 months now.

Another flaw I think I have, not sure though, I turn the pick so its at a 10 - 4 o'clock position. 3-9 oclock would mean the pick is parallel with the strings. 12 -6 would be perpindicular.

Is this a problem?

Thanks

[6StringShredder]

does strap length have a factor in the mechanics of playing? I had the chance to play Kerry King's guitar at a clinic he did and the bridge of the guitar was almost at my knee (very long strap). I notice that when I am sitting down with the guitar and no strap, my LH feels more comfortable.

Can you have the strap too long or too short?

Thanks

[Bongo Boy]

Originally posted by 6StringShredder
Can you have the strap too long or too short?
Q: Can you have the strap too long?
A: For 80's rock, no.

Q: Can you have the strap too short?
A: For jazz, no.

:D

[eastwood]

I ALWAYS practise on electric guitar standing up - the strap is set to put the guitar in the same position as it would be sitting down but slightly lower.

I much prefer standing and playing now after forcing myself to do it for the last couple of months.

I practise on my acoustic sitting down while at my girlfriends (twice a week) - I run through scales / chords and such - tends to develop your strength a bit.

Daz

[EricV]

Strap length definitely has an influence on your playing... for some licks it´s a bit easier to have the guitar up high ( when I i.e. record something and wanna use the dreaded stretch pentatonic, it´s easier for me to play it with the guitar pretty high ), and also, it makes stretches easier to i.e. have the angle the guitar, to have the headstock point slightly upwards.

The straps on my guitars are adjusted in a way so that the guitar, when I stand, is at the exact same height that it is at when I´m sitting down.
Eric

[EricV]

Originally posted by 6StringShredder

Another flaw I think I have, not sure though, I turn the pick so its at a 10 - 4 o'clock position. 3-9 oclock would mean the pick is parallel with the strings. 12 -6 would be perpindicular.

Is this a problem?
[/B]

Not at all. A lot of people do that. It makes fast picking easier to angle the pick like that, and IMHO, it also improves the tone.

[BenoA]

Thanks Eric for the cool post!!!

I've been playing for too many years and stopped too many times (university studies, first job, kidz, house) well you see the point.

The past few weeks i've decided it was time for me to get my playing to a new level. The first thing i noticed is the *** information overload *** we have these days!!! Back in the mid 80s when i started we only had a very few guitar mags and no internet!!!

So, i'll do like you said, I'll concentrate on SOME exercises (I have Speed Mechanics by Stetina, and the Petrucci's DVD). Anyway, my "practice time" is so limited i cannot go through all of what is available. This web site (ibreathemusic.com) is really inpsiring too. Lots of quality infos are available.

About the right hand technique, well i'm a bit confused. One of my friends has lots of guitar videos and i watched a few of them and i noticed that "right hand" technique is different to all guitarist. Well, guys like Malmsteen and Angelo have a very accurate almost not moving right hand (impressive) but seeing others with a similar way of playing like i do gave me encouragement!!! :)

Finaly, you are true about "re-learning" to do it right. These days i feel like a newbie when playing!!! I gotta put the metronome sssoooo slow!!!

If ever my day job calms down and i get a bit more time on my hands, i'd love to take some lessons from a real shredder (www.borislavmitic.com). Anyone knows this guy??? I'm lucky enough to have a met him a few times and i have his phone number!!! Like you said Eric, even you watch many videos and practice various exercises, having someone teaching you how to do it can greatly help ya and at least put you on the right track.

Keep rockin!!!

BenoA

[6StringShredder]

EricV,

Is that avatar (that pic by your name) how you have the guitar on your strap, or are you sitting down in that picture? Do you have any pictures of you standing that would show your guitar position?

My initial goal before I start to learn scales, patterns, etc.; is to correct all mechanical and technique flaws (hand position, strap length, etc). I believe that proper technique should be mastered so later on I don't have to re-learn everything. For example, my one friend has been playing for 20 years and he has always held the pick with his middle finger and thumb, and now want to change to index and thumb because he feels his way is holding him back. He is finding out that he can't switch and always goes back to what he always did.

Thanks

[6StringShredder]

EricV,

Is that avatar (that pic by your name) how you have the guitar on your strap, or are you sitting down in that picture? Do you have any pictures of you standing that would show your guitar position?

My initial goal before I start to learn scales, patterns, etc.; is to correct all mechanical and technique flaws (hand position, strap length, etc). I believe that proper technique should be mastered so later on I don't have to re-learn everything. For example, my one friend has been playing for 20 years and he has always held the pick with his middle finger and thumb, and now want to change to index and thumb because he feels his way is holding him back. He is finding out that he can't switch and always goes back to what he always did.

Thanks

[EricV]

Regarding the avatar... yeah, I was sitting when that pic was taken, with the guitar resting on my thigh, actually a bit higher than I usually have it.
See the pics below to get an idea of the guitar-position... the left and middle one were taken live in 2002, the one on the right was taken in January of 2001...
Eric

[Doug McMullen]

People move their hands at approximately the same speed. Steve Vai, Steve Morse, Yngvie etc... they can't swing their arms faster than you, shake their hands faster, or wiggle their fingers faster....

So what's their secret? They wiggle their fingers more _efficiently_... in general that means a shorter distance.

Imagine the 100 yard dash... The fastest runners are within 10ths of a second of each other... but what if you gave someone a 10 yard head start... a totally average high school track athelete would suddenly smash the world record... and with a 50 yard head start a fat man like me would be competitive. (I can run 50 yards in 9.0... I think.)

MOVE YOUR FINGERS LESS, NOT FASTER. They should press down very very gently (reread the very true comments made by m7b5 --because if you use to much pressure it is impossible to really play fast) and release effortlesslyt to just above the strings, NO WASTED EFFORT... NO WASTED MOVEMENT.

Drilling this requires truely intense concentration and effort. If you go about practicing with the same old same old mindset you use now, forget it.

Invent drills for yourself so that each finger is relaxed and under completely independent control of your mind.... if you want to move your ring finger, then nothing elese moves but your ring finger. Gain indepentdent control of the fingers of your left hand, press lightly, sooooooo lightly on the frets. You should press no harder than it takes for the string to not buzz. Try to press that lightly. When you release a fret, release so that your finger hovers above the string very nearby perhaps a 1/4 inch, or less.

All of this is for the left hand... for the right hand the same thing applies.... move the pick less... smaller movements = faster playing. The guy swinging the pick thru a 1/4 inch arc has to move the pick 4 times as fast as the guy swinging it thur a 16th of an inch arc... and that guy is working twice as hard as the guy swinging the pick thru a 1/32nd inch arc.

Speed is efficiency. when I was working on this stuff for myself, once I had developed sufficient independent finger control on my left hand I worked out some licks where when I released a note the finger releasing would pre-fret the next note it would be needed for... this burned the lick into my hands so completely that I'd just go screaming thru the lick. Try it... but don't try it first thing.


Good luck,
Doug

True focus and attention and a willingness to confront problems in an honest problem solving manner will get you to your goals.

[min7b5]

Originally posted by Doug McMullen
... they can't swing their arms faster than you, shake their hands faster, or wiggle their fingers faster...

I don't know...maybe. I think some people really can move body parts faster than others. I was just watching Pat Martino play last week. I think Pat is a very fast and clean picker, and he's not just play symmetrical-three-note-per-string-type licks, he's really bopping through changes. I'd never seen him play before, I was amazed how his fingers came off the fretboard so much. I mean just watching him, you'd think he had the worst technique. Al Di Meola also doesn't seem to limit his range of motion so much. I know when I've tried to stay close to the strings it seems to impede relaxation, which has, for me personally, been the only way to play fast and clean. On the other hand, guys like Brian Sutton and Mark Whitfield are clearly some of the fastest, cleanist players around and don’t even look like they’re moving their fingers...go figure.

[Doug McMullen]

I don't know...maybe. I think some people really can move body parts faster than others.

I honestly don't think speed comes from that kind of movement.

But, I also know it's true what you say, some very very good (and rather speedy) players have what looks like fairly mediocre technique.

I think that there are several factors that can give a increased sense of speed to a musical line... good phrasing and a tight propulsive rhythmic sense and an interesting, tense, emotive, musical line will sound somehow faster than a flabby uniteresting line... even though both are objectively at the same speed.

But I think the main thing that allows a player with poor technique to play both fast and really great is "unconsciousness" ... or "talking thru the instrument" ...

There's something that happens to a guy's playing when he has truly completely stopped thinking about anything technical and is just letting music flow from brain to hands to instrument. When playing guitar is as natural and spontaneous as talking there's this speed that goes with that state, with or without "good" technique... I think that's what Pat Martino has... in a shredding contest or a sweep picking contest there are technique monsters out there who would crush him... but Martino can spin a line thru complicated changes while meditating on the I Ching. (Check out the "instructional" stuff at his website, If you want to see some very spaced out things).

John McLaughlin, Pat Martino, Barney Kessel... I mean those guys can/could play fast and they really don't have the best technique... I think it's that they're just so tuned in to music they don't need technique.

True originality sounds really fast :-)

Doug

[6StringShredder]

Originally posted by EricV
Regarding the avatar... yeah, I was sitting when that pic was taken, with the guitar resting on my thigh, actually a bit higher than I usually have it.
See the pics below to get an idea of the guitar-position... the left and middle one were taken live in 2002, the one on the right was taken in January of 2001...
Eric

Questions:

1) the pic on the left, are you grabbing the bar? It seems like your 3 fingers are out-stretched. Is this an acceptable hand position? I am forcing myself to curl all the fingers into the palm. This makes PM difficult, but I am getting used to it

2) you have the guitar very high on your body. I might have to look into this as being a problem in my playing. Like I said before, I can play licks that require wide stretching easier when I am sitting down with the guitar on my thigh.

Thanks

[EricV]

Originally posted by 6StringShredder
Questions:

1) the pic on the left, are you grabbing the bar? It seems like your 3 fingers are out-stretched. Is this an acceptable hand position? I am forcing myself to curl all the fingers into the palm. This makes PM difficult, but I am getting used to it

Well, I think I was playing a long series of artificial harmonics on the low E-string when that pic was taken. Sometimes, when I do that, especially live, I open up my hand, because for some reason, it seems to be a bit easier to really "squeeze" these harmonics then.
I usually do curl up my fingers, too. My right hand looks kinda similar to Greg Howe´s hand ( a bit more under tension though ) and PG´s hand ( a bit more relaxed, though :) )
There are SOME situations, especially when I am on stage, where I stray away from any "classical" or "acceptable" technique just to get the results I need. But 99% of the time, I play with the "floating, curled" hand, and either classical l.h. or thumb above the neck l.h.

Originally posted by 6StringShredder
2) you have the guitar very high on your body. I might have to look into this as being a problem in my playing. Like I said before, I can play licks that require wide stretching easier when I am sitting down with the guitar on my thigh.

I can too, I just angle the guitar, have the headstock point up in a certain degree.
As mentioned before, the guitar is at the same height that it is at when I sit down. And my right arm is angled the correct way when the guitar is that high.
Also, having the guitar up that high makes playing in the upper positions easier for me... I don´t have to twist my l.h. as much.
It´s just a matter of conditioning and habit. Steve Vai and Steve Morse wear the guitar pretty low ( well, surely not as low as guys like Slash or Jimmy Page ), while i.e. John Petrucci wears it even higher than I do,...
The way I wear the guitar is: when I sit down and rest the guitar on my thigh, the strap still is under tension... which shows me that I have the guitar at the exact same height when I stand up

Eric

[neo shredder]

i dont know if this will help you but it sure help me a lot. When i was in middle school in the eight grade i was really into players like kirk hammet randy rhoads and van halen who are mainly play in pentatonic scales in the Em Am and Bm. so i dint worry about my picking because i manily played pull off's and hammer on's.

it wasnt soon that my friend let me borrow a yngwie malmsteen cd wich at the time i tought he played so many sweeps cause at the time i tought was really fast. i got intrested in his style. so i started to look up tabs and found out he played a lot of scales. i then later went to guitar center and my mom bought me a yngwie reh video for my birthday. the video centered to his style of playing. it was then when i started to play 3 note per string licks.

In his video there was one lick that i still play a lot. most licks in his video are in Am. i now know the key of C and Am by heart. i can jam on that key forever. the ptb lick is the speed that yngwie plays it at in his vid. i started it of slow but my major problem was that i never pick hard. i use to think that i was playing accurate but it turns out i wasnt. so pick hard so you can hear everything. i also use to pick on the neck!. for me its easier to pick on the neck because your pick rests on the neck. i sstill do this only when im soloing on the neck pickup because it really sound like a flurry. but when i tried to pick on the place were you normaly pick i was weak i could not pick anything and this was just in feb. when i ran into this sight about feb i look at the paul gilbert article. thats were i read that he picks really hard. so then i started to pick hard and it really works.

i would get angry when i would try to play the intro to the solo of street lethal at the speed that paul plays it at. but it took time. i went from playing nothing when it came to pickng scales to being able to play really fast in a couple of months so im sure you clould do it also.

[neo shredder]

heres a picking solo. the tempo is at the original speed but you shoul slow it down to 140 or 120 or 100 if you really need to remember pick hard and use strict alternate picking it may take time to play this

[szulc]

What was this picking solo from?

[neo shredder]

its from that great boggie song from michael angelo the finish line. dont know if anyone has heard of him but hes another guy who copied Y.J.M in the 80's

[6StringShredder]

UPDATE:

My quest to become a better player has already made a huge leap forward. Being sucessful in many sports taught me that the proper form is critical for success. I noticed a lot of mechanical flaws in my playing and correcting them is helping a lot!


1) strap length - as silly as this sounds this has made a huge difference. I had the guitar really low. My picking arm was at about 150* angle. After watching my YMalmsteem tape, Lynch tape, EricVs pics, and other pictures of good guitarists, I noticed they all have their picking arm at a 90* angle. Not only has this made playing A LOT more comfortable, it helps me get the proper picking position, and helps a lot with my fretting hand as well. I don't get sore or tired like I used to, and I feel WAY more comfortable.

2) picking - for exercise I am watching my picking hand closely for proper positioning and trying to use the smallest movements as possible. The floating picking hand (after about 6 weeks now) is feeling a lot more comfortable. Now when I try to go back to my old way, it feels really awkward (which is good!).

3) I have a renewed sense of enthusiasm now to play. I haven't started on the 3 note per string exercises yet, but will soon. I wanted to correct any fundamental problems before I really start to iron this stuff out.

Thanks

[6StringShredder]

*The only problem now is I feel the guitar is up too high and I dont have that 80s metal low rider look now!

[EricV]

*The only problem now is I feel the guitar is up too high and I dont have that 80s metal low rider look now!

Everyone has to make some sacrifices to the art, you know :)

Anyway, glad you were able to improve things and change some details, thereby making it a bit easier to play...
Eric