Harder pick + slant + relax = YES!!!

[hellogoodbye]

First of all: I love the internet. Thanks to all the info it gives on sites like this one, I learned more about the guitar in the last few weeks, than I did in the last 25 years. Really! Only problem is... there are so many sites and... so many forums! I currently visite (only) three forums daily (or better said every 15 minutes... ;) ): a dutch forum, the forum on guitarprinciples and this forum. I try to keep things seperate and don't double post. But yesterday I had a breakthrough and I really HAVE to share it with you all, because this is my most favorite site! (No kidding!) So I copied the post from that forum and I will paste it here. Don't be afraid: I won't make a habit of it. Unless I have breakthroughs like this daily... ;)

Here it goes:

After reading a lot on this site and the forum I decided to buy a stiffer pick. I had an old flexible one. I bought (amongst others) a Dunlop Jazz III (red) which is something like 1,38 mm thick.
I had lots of problems with Troy Stetina's exercise 25 from Speed Mechanics: I couldn't do it faster than 110. The book says you have to do it at 132 before you proceed... My plectrum frequently got stuck behind a string. Whe I tried to play it at 120 it was a mess. Specially the thicker strings...

When i came home I stumbled accross the page on this site about 'slant' (edit: http://www.guitarprinciples.com/Guitar_Technique/Slant.htm). I never heard of that before! I thought: I have to try this!

I picked up my guitar and played the exercise. I had to get used a bit to the thicker pick and the slant position, but after a VERY short while I suddenly had a nice, steady pick! I also paid close attention to any tension I noticed. I've read a lot about it on this site, but haven't got the book (yet) so I don't know ALL about it, but, well, there's quit some info here if you look well! Anyway, I noticed (indeed) that my shoulders were tense. And both my arms. Specially my pick arm, when I tried to pick quick.
But after paying attention to it all, I suddenly had a nice, light but still very pick-sounding pick. The exercise went quit well.

I wondered how fast I was playing.

I took the metronome and set it to 120 immediately: I felt I was doing better than yesterday, so...
I started to play with the speed I just played in and to my surprise I was faster than the metronome. So I went to 130... and I still played the exercise well. Although not quit good on the tick strings.

I had to go away for the evening. When I came back I thought: was it really true...? So I picked up my guitar and played th eexercise at 120. Easy! Smooth! I went to 130: pretty nice!
How fast can I get, I thought, so I went to 140. And even that went well. Just as 'well' as 130 was earlier on.

So... I thought, what will happen when I try 160...? Believe it or not (I hardly believed it) but it went well on the thin strings! And when I went back to 140 that went even better than before!

So thanks to a harder pick AND slant (I really notice a big difference when I go back to my old position) I've made great progress!

But what also surprised me a lot: until today, even yesterday, my right arm sort of froze when I tried to play at 120. I could play the exercise on two or three strings, but then I couldn't do it anymore, because of the stiffness and pain. My arm would just block.
But today, by just paying attention to play it all VERY relaxed and allowing no tension AT ALL in my arms, I could play the complete exercise over and over! Without ANY pain ANYWHERE! Really, I'm not kidding!

I already said: I don't even have the book, I didn't even follow a lesson, but if only this can give me such a progress, I can only say, without having seen it: this method MUST be great!
Just as my new pick and the 'slant'!

I'll go on tomorrow with doing the exercise at a slower pace, because it's not perfect yet. And also my coordination isn't very good yet (this exercise focuses mainly on the right hand: I can't play 160 yet with both hands having to work hard...!), but I know now I will get there!

I don't think I will be able to make such a progress in such a short time anymore, even though it's a progress in just a small part of my guitar plpaying (the picking speed)... Going from 110 to 130/140 and even 160 here and there is incredible.
I'm a happy man!
Well, maybe this can help someone to progress a little further! :)

[EricV]

Hey there,

yeah, the slanted-pick-issue has been discussed at the forums a few times. Most rock-players slant their pick... it helps to speed up, and I ( and I am not the only one ) prefer the sound of that... it sounds different than holding the pick the regular way.
And I always preferred hard picks myself. The first pick I ever bought ( mainly because I had no clue at all ) was the one I bought the day I bought my first guitar... a white sharkfin... VEEEERRRY thin.
I used that for a while, and once I wswitched to electric guitar, I bought some cool-looking Pickboy-pick. Never mind the look... what was cool about it was that it was VERY heavy... and from then on, I never went back to light picks.
Congrats on your progress !
Warm regards
Eric

[DanF]

Interestingly enough I've been working on this same problem with poor results (I made a conscious choice not to slant my pick but maybe I'll try it again). I've been playing with Fender Heavies for a few months but yesterday I actually bought some Dunlop 1.5 mm (hard as an F'ing rock). Picking is a bit easier but it makes my chord stuff sound crappy (I think I may be able to correct this with some technique modifications though). My chords sound much brighter and have more bite (not what a jazzer wants :P) and you can hear the pick hit everystring on the way down (or up as the case may be).

Congrats on the progress and thanks for sharing your experience.

-Dan

[ChainsawGuitar]

After reading this post, I decided to try out the difference (I always have a selection of different spare picks for my students to use). I, personally, have used the slanted, thicker plectrum method for years (despite many many other guitarists telling me its wrong!)- I just prefer the sound!

As for how my experimenting went, I found that it does take more effort to play with a thinner pick, but only a little bit more. Make sure when you pick, you hold the pick near the pointed end aswell- which helps reduce friction and reduces the likelyhood of the pick bending as it hits the string.

But as I said, I've always used thicker picks anyway, so I totally agree with what you're saying! Good job someone agrees with me! :)

[Keith Alex]

I too tried to learn how to play the guitar and was able to play one song, but that is all, but never really learned to be a good guitar player. I really love to learn but music instrument is not for me. Even if i never learn how to play i really like reading article about it.

[bluesking]

There is only one pick worth considering from my point of view. Its got to be silver. Silver can be kept thin for precision and agility, but is very stiff. Plus it doesnt wear down so easy like other metals and doesn't leave a black residue all over your strings and hands.

Just my experience, I appreciate a lot of people wouldn't like the tone but I love it!!

[Darkman]

So... I thought, what will happen when I try 160...? Believe it or not (I hardly believed it) but it went well on the thin strings! And when I went back to 140 that went even better than before!Hmmm. So playing that fast is so easy after all...... pardon my cynicism.

One of the best tips I could give for playing faster is simply don't fret the strings very hard. Use a very light touch, and hey presto your left hand can jump around. It's obvious when someone points it out, but not so obvious if you've spent years fretting chords very firmly to avoid buzz.

But who am I to lecture? I can't jump by 30 bpm just by changing my pick position! ;)

[magpie74]

Slanting the pick is the only way I can reach any reasonable amout of speed, but I try to avoid doing so for a number of reasons:

First, to play that fast without tension, I need to rest my palm on the strings above the one I'm picking. That's fine for strings 1-4, but for strings 5 and 6 there's nothing to rest my palm on. On guitars with flat tops and low bridges I can usually rest my palm on the body of the guitar, but on carved tops with higher bridges it's considerably more difficult to do so. The posture also seems more awkward standing versus sitting. If I am going to invest the time cultivating a new technique, I'd like that technique to work on every guitar in every posture.

Second, while the slanted technique sounds fine on the plain strings, I find that the pick makes a scraping noise on the wound strings. The noise can be drowned out with enough distortion, but I play pretty clean these days and can't stand the sound of it. To my ear, the unslanted pick has a much bolder and more musical tone.

Third, even though I can play very fast with the pick slanted, it feels like uncontrolled speed. That's fine for tremolo picking, but not so good when I need clean sixteenth notes at 140 bpm, so I only really use it for tremolo picking.

All that being said, I have a student who plays ridiculously fast by slanting his pick and he sounds great. I'd like to spend a couple of months exploring the technique to see if I can resolve some of the issues I've had.

[Darkman]

Maybe I'm simply not understanding the technique. The link said slant it towards the neck. That means the pick is still flat side horizontal to the strings, but the point is rotated to the left? I tried that and saw no difference in results. They don't mean slice across the strings with the pick more angular?

Anyway, it's impossible to explain heh

[NG7]

It makes sense.

When looking down on the face guitar, think of the pick as the side of a hill that's sloped towards the neck side of the guitar.

I think this forum could seriously benefit from stickied threads for things like the picking angle and various speed building threads, modes, etc.

[Darkman]

Studying the pic, the plectrum is slanted slightly downwards towards the floor at 45 degrees (if you were sitting) as opposed to towards the neck. It's like 45 degrees *away* from the neck downwards to avoid a flat-on contact with the string.
That's just me clarifying it for myself. I'll give it another try this evening...

[lufc71]

Maybe I'm simply not understanding the technique. The link said slant it towards the neck. That means the pick is still flat side horizontal to the strings, but the point is rotated to the left? I tried that and saw no difference in results. They don't mean slice across the strings with the pick more angular?

Anyway, it's impossible to explain heh

I'm with you. The pics are not clear. I cannot see a definate slant in any direction. Having played for years, and tried various positions, I can't see why it would make that much of a difference. but whatever works for you is good :)

Could somebody post a pic with maybe arrows or something to explain this technique?

[NG7]

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g280/Norton7/Pick-1.jpg

[Darkman]

That's a much better demonstration pic, and it confirms they actually meant point the pick a little towards the floor at 45 degrees, as opposed to the neck. Playing with the pick flat to string is pointing towards the neck.

[NG7]

I'll stop arguing semantics after this, but the link never said to point the pick anywhere: it said slant the pick, that is, the pick as a whole is slanted in relation to the string.

Where does the pick slant towards? Well think about an elevated driveway; it slants toward the street. The pick in this case slants towards the neck.

As for where the pick is "pointing", to me it seems logical to say the pick is pointing into the soundhole, because that's where the point of the pick is after all (unless you pick with the round of it or something).

Sorry, I'm bored.

[bluesking]

Jesus christ, shoot me now.

[Darkman]

I'll stop arguing semantics after this, but the link never said to point the pick anywhere: it said slant the pick, that is, the pick as a whole is slanted in relation to the string.

Where does the pick slant towards? Well think about an elevated driveway; it slants toward the street. The pick in this case slants towards the neck.

As for where the pick is "pointing", to me it seems logical to say the pick is pointing into the soundhole, because that's where the point of the pick is after all (unless you pick with the round of it or something).
Yes that's true :D

[ragasaraswati]

I observed my picking and I have that slant, I think it's natural because the picking motion originates in the wrist and the movement is an arch rather than a line. Also I think there is less resistance that way and makes for more effortless playing.

[slash_ragnarok]

Firstly,
@ guys talking about pick angle.
Guys, What angle does the frets make with the string? If you paid attention in elementary geometry class, u'l know its 90 degrees. So 45 degrees with the strings is the same as 45 degrees with the neck. It doesnt make much sense. Full credos to NG7 for the awesome pic.

Secondly, My experiences with picking technique...

I state at this point that i'm not very fast. I can play 16th notes at 180 bpm.. and thats the absolute max limit of my picking. Maybe if u let my elbows do the picking i could crank it up to 190bpm but that would occur at a cost of technique.

I always play with hard picks. Very hard. Jim Dunlop 3 mm stubbys. Though Jazz III s once in a while arent that bad either. I do slant my pick. However the angle of slant is determined by the string im picking on. E.g 6th string picking is done with only a slight slant. The pick makes an angle of about 15 degrees with the STRING and NOT The FLOOR. For the high e or 1st string the angle rises to 45 degrees.

Next, I never ever rest my palm on the bridge, let alone pressing on the bridge (any floyd users to share my palm muting woes?). The heel of my palm might graze or brush the strings to mute them. Also most of the muting is done by my left hand fingers and my picking hand thumb. To change pick angle(slant angle) I rarely rotate my wrist. I bend my thumb at the first joint from the tip of my thumb a la Paul Gilbert.

I find it much easier to relax my shoulders and triceps(YES triceps) if the guitar is resting on my left thigh. Im a right handed player. This in fact best simulates the position of the guitar when u are standing.

Picking fast involves micro movements using fine muscles in ur forearms(if u r picking from ur wrist). So I dont curl up my picking hand fingers because curling ur three ( two for Steve Morse) unused fingers uses forearm muscles as well. I dont keep them straight out like Kirk hammett as well. That too uses my muscles. requires some effort. So i keep them a bit curled like ur fingers are when u r fast asleep(rings a bell?). By the way if ur wrist is the fulcrum where u pivot ur picking hand then straightening out fingers actually require ur wrsit to produce more torque to move ur hand(for details study Rotational Mechanics from any elementary physics book).

Economy of motion. Very important. If ur hand goes only a li'l distance it'l come back faster. In fact making the first small movement isn't tough. Its making ur hand oscillate in the small frame thats tough. No sooner does ur hand move in one direction than it has to make its way back in the opposite. ur hand feels trapped.

lastly I urge all those with picking problems to work it out urself. try different methods. Give each one some time before rejecting it. Listen to ur body. It can be ur best guitar teacher. for those who can pick satisfactorily(Satisfactory to themselves) dont change a thing cuz it aint broke.

Finally(more last than lastly) I apologize for all the typos and grammatical errors. this post was posted in a very short time. I had to go out.

Cheers..:D

[Ameretat]

This is for the guys saying they notice no difference when slanting the pick: Pressure = Force / Surface. Funny how physics can improve your playing. I guess Musashi was right after all - if you want to be a great swordsman you have to learn all crafts. :D If you want to apply the same pressure with less force, just minimize the surface. By slanting the pick you play with just the edge, not with the flat side of the pick - how's that for minimizing the surface?

As for the issues magpie74 raised, they can be all solved relatively easily through observation and experiment. For example:

I find that the pick makes a scraping noise on the wound strings.
That can by worked out with a closer look at your technique. It just takes some observation, analysis and practice but it can be done and is quite easy - or else no one would play classical guitar with their nails. It took me some time to find the right angle and direction of motion (very subtle stuff) but I finally managed it. And if I can even do it with classical guitar (much thicker strings), nails or pick, it proves that you should be able to do it too, with just a fraction of the effort.

I need to rest my palm on the strings above the one I'm picking. That's fine for strings 1-4, but for strings 5 and 6 there's nothing to rest my palm on.
Again, just a problem of observation and a bit of getting used to modifying your technique. Don't rest your hand on the body. Rest it on the strings when palm-muting and on the bridge when not pm-ing. It works because of 2 reasons:
1. You don't need to rest the whole of your hand, just a bit of it to have a kind of reference point.
2. You shouldn't really "rest" your full arm's weight, just slightly touching will do. Not to mention, resting your hand with too much pressure will cut off your circulation. Every apparently minute detail affects your playing. It's the same principle classical guitarists apply when slightly resting their RH elbow on the guitar - you don't need to "rest", just a slight touch as a reference point will do.

Third, even though I can play very fast with the pick slanted, it feels like uncontrolled speed.
Again, o problem of adjusting your technique, paying attention and optimizing. Picking is just like throwing a punch, a compound motion, starting in the feet, of all places and involving your whole body. The same way, you pick with your whole arm, despite what fast pickers usually say.

The tendons do run through the forearm, don't they?
There are 3 major joints relevant to picking: 1. the elbow 2. the wrist and 3. the knuckles of your thumb and first finger. Adjusting the motion in these will optimize your picking and speed things up, in a controlled fashion.

Also, consider that when you play slowly, almost all the motion comes from direct pressure exerted by the muscles, but the faster you go, the more important momentum becomes. Physics again, yay. :D That means that when playing really fast, your muscles will have to start contract for upward motion while momentum still drives the hand down. You have to accustom yourself with momentum and the feeling of the pick pulling through the string. Keep the pick as close to the string as possible at all times. AND. For maximum control, minimize the motion in your elbow. It might take some while of getting used to, but putting emphasis on wrist-motion and even more emphasis on knuckle motion, things start to change noticeably after some weeks. Adding that knuckle motion maximizes control but it takes a lot of finesse to combine knuckle- and wrist motion. It took me some long months to master this, but I can currently play 16th notes at 220 bpm, ad nausea with no sweat and 240 bpm on short passages (1 bar tops). I can go to about 260-280 bpm if I add some elbow motion, but that makes it virtually impossible to properly change strings without stopping for for a beat or missing beat - and it feels very out of control. "Tremolo picking" does not exist in my dictionary, at least not without a well defined rythm.

So, you see, attention and experiment make your life much easier. The trick is that just reading some formulas in physics (or anatomy or whatever) books doesn't bring you anywhere. You have to feel the concepts, as in kinesthetically. Your eyes are virtually useless when playing guitar and your ears can't play, just hear the end result. But it's your sense of TOUCH that gets the job done.

Hope this helps some observant and patient fellow enjoy the easy life in the fast lane.

[grrlwitgumption]

oh wow, i was doing this with fast picking on my own (i dont have a teacher) and always thought it was just crappy technique i should probably correct.

yay!