Learning the Fretboard...

[the new kid]

Hi. I'm new to the forums, and am a little confused regarding the scales and modes. I know a some basic scale patterns, but I am starting to get serious about my playing and I want to learn to play all over the fretboard, with different scale patterns. What is the best way to go about this? I have heard that the CAGED method is good, so is that a good way to learn the fretboard? Any help you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

[Bongo Boy]

Welcome to iBreathemusic!

You probably won't find one single 'best' answer for this. But, the topic has come up a lot over the past couple of years. Try using the 'search' feature on this site, and seach Forums for 'caged' and 'fretboard overload'. I think 'fretboard' will probably return too many threads not on this topic, but it won't hurt to see.

Here's a thread just started this week:

http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2354

[hellogoodbye]

Here is a non-iBreathemusic link to a simple, basic but nevertheless very clear explanation about the CAGED system:
http://www.highcountryguitar.com/caged.htm

I made a (basic but very clear) pdf with the basic patterns (there are only 5!) that will enable you to play in any key and in any mode all over the fretboard. Well, after practicing a little...

I started using what I call The Big Patterns just about a month ago, because I never knew what notes to play during improvisation. I just didn't know the fretboard.
Only a month later I can play in any key or mode and improvise all over the fretboard, only by applying that Big Pattern (which can be divided into the 5 well know, easy to learn patterns).
I have to say I that I'm completely lost (yet) when there are wieird chords changes: but that's just a matter of time: I just don't have the experience yet to quickly change to another key. I can, but it takes a few seconds.
But I'm already glad that I can play all over the fretboard in key after 1 month without mistakes! I spend a lot of time just improvising in a certain key and am still amazed to hear no wrong notes! :)

Give me your e-mail if you want the pdf. Or mail me at hellogoodbye100@hotmail.com

P.S. The pdf is no magic thing: it's a simple file which shows you the basic 5 patterns and how they relate to each other (where they overlap) and how they form the Big Pattern. Although you really only need the one big pattern to get going, I also included the same patterns showing Minor positions (just a different rootnote), the Major and Minor Penatonic modes (two notes left out), the Blues Scale (Penta plus the blues note) and how to easily play all modes (Phrygian, Myxolodian, etc.).

[Koala]

Hellogoodbye: If your CAGED pdf weighs less than 1mb why not upload it into this thread?

[hellogoodbye]

Originally posted by Koala
Hellogoodbye: If your CAGED pdf weighs less than 1mb why not upload it into this thread?
Oh! I never really noticed that option! That's great! Easy! Easy! :) Saves me a lot of mailing! ;) And it's less than 100 Kb, so... here is it.

And oh yes, it's not really a CAGED pdf... It just shows you the basic 5 patterns that form the big patterns, plus some info basic on CAGED. But I already said enough about that. ;)
If you find big mistakes in the pdf, please let me know!

P.S. I'm thinking about re-arranging the info, because I used a different order for the patterns (which I found more logical...) than most guitarplayers use. I didn't knew this 'official' order when I made the pdf. Still, the info is the same, so...

[the new kid]

Thanks for the pdf, I'll be sure to practice the scale patterns you showed. By the way, are the Fretboard Logic books any good? I hear that they go into detail about the CAGED system. Any expieriences with the books?

[Bongo Boy]

Maybe I really should find another instrument. I've read and re-read the explanation cited above, read two books that use the method (with Big Pictures), and have had it explained to me here at iBreathe, at length, at least twice. It still makes absolutely no sense whatsover to me--not even the slightest, most remote glimmer of usefullness AT ALL. I just don't get it. :(

[EricV]

Bongo,

don´t give up !!! First of all, it is actually a rather big thing to tackle, especially if you, at the same time, have to get used to other aspects of playing ( the physical side, techniques, gear etc. )

And... sometimes it doesn´t help to read 60 different explanations of a certain thing. Sometimes, you need to understand and explore it by yourself.
Example: I never understood the "the guitar is a chromatic instrument" type thing when I started out. I thought that you had to learn all those chords one at a time.. Am, Bbm, Bm, Cm etc.

And then, one day, I asked myself "OK, why is that chord an Am and why is that one a Bm ?" Analyzed them, thought about it, then I suddenly understood it... I had read several explanations before, but none of them really made it clear for me.
But by looking at it and pretty much "explaining it to myself" ( and by working on small bits, one at a time ), I finally got it.

This is not unusual. For some people it doesnt work if you tell them the rules of something. They have to follow the thought process and understand the whole thing themselves
So don´t give up, k ?
It´s a big thing to work on, but I promise, once you understand it, it will be worth it
Eric

[hellogoodbye]

Originally posted by Bongo Boy
Maybe I really should find another instrument. I've read and re-read the explanation cited above, read two books that use the method (with Big Pictures), and have had it explained to me here at iBreathe, at length, at least twice. It still makes absolutely no sense whatsover to me--not even the slightest, most remote glimmer of usefullness AT ALL. I just don't get it. :(
Hm, oh dear... First of all, don't find another instrument. Yet. There is hope. I guess.. ;) What exactly don't you understand...? Which cited explanation? You don't understand what the use of patterns is, is that it...?

Before I begin another long post, it might be good to really get the problem clear. If you want to...

The simplest thing that I can say about the usefullness of it all is:
when you know the 5 patterns (or the big pattern), you won't be lost anymore while you improvise on the guitar.

I never knew at which frets I should press the strings in order to get notes that fitted with the scale I was playing over. I always hit wrong notes, because I was just guessing.
But now I know the patterns, I know at which frets I can play notes, and which frets I should skip in order to keep in key with the song.

But here I already go again.. ;)

[Tim]

I first started on mandolin because I figured it would be easier than guitar...but it was still so painful to know where the notes were on the fingerboard. Since I had played piano since I was a wee lad, I started penciling in the black keys under the strings (sharps and flats)--because that's where the notes are. I was trying to get the regular position markers to line up with black keys, but of course that doesn't work.

The idea developed into position markers under the strings. If you think of each string as a keyboard of notes, all you need to do is mark them and you can see all the notes. It doesn't work to put letter names down, like the dreaded "guitar grids" which just make your head spin. You have to have a streamlined type of mark that you just glance at...like piano black keys. Something to think about...I developed the idea much further to patent pending stage. So anyway I'll just throw that idea out there. This idea works for mandolin, bass, guitar, whatever has strings.

[Bongo Boy]

Okay, so now I've had my little tantrum and moment of self-pity--thanks for your indulgence.

I think Eric's comment is probably the whole deal--this is just something I'm going to have to work through. It's not a matter of learning the patterns or why they are what they are--it's the connection to the C, A, G, E and D chords that totally baffles me. Sure, I can see those chords are in the patterns--right now my brain just asks, "So what?" There's an infinite number of patterns that each of those chords are also in. The chords are not a useful mnemonic for me--I just don't understand why I should care about them.

For me, I think a big problem may be not spending enough time with the guitar AND the written materials at the same time. Everyone here has stressed the importance of immediate application of theory and concepts, and of course that makes perfect sense to me. I fail to actually DO it, though.

I chose guitar partly because of all the cool stuff it can be coaxed into doing. But I chose it also because I felt it was a huge, huge personal challenge. So...I got exactly what I asked for!

[xenor]

I applied myself a different way of learning the fretboard which is similar to Eric's thoughts.
I learned theory first. Before I knew the notes on the fretboard, I've learned the theory. But I didn't memorize them, I LEARNED. I learned the circle of sharps and flats and actually learned WHY they circulate in the same way. I never memorized scales or chords but when I think about them I can find the right thing in a moment.
For example: I've learned that the Major scale with only on sharp has F#. Then I've seen that every other scale with a sharp had F#. Then I've seen that only the scale with 7 flats had the Fb.
This is only an example but I've learned the theory part like this (including chord theory.)

Then, I had the same problems with memorization. I was playing notes and repeating myself through the neck but there was no proccess. Then I found solution. I've found a picture of a blank, white fretboard and printed thousands of it! When I've found myslef an empty time, I was taking one of them and writing the notes down! I suggest you to try it. It worked on me.

[hellogoodbye]

Originally posted by Bongo Boy
[B]It's not a matter of learning the patterns or why they are what they are--it's the connection to the C, A, G, E and D chords that totally baffles me. Sure, I can see those chords are in the patterns--right now my brain just asks, "So what?" There's an infinite number of patterns that each of those chords are also in. The chords are not a useful mnemonic for me--I just don't understand why I should care about them.
O, is that all!!!! ;) Wel, in that case: forget about it! You don't have to care about them! Really!

I personally never 'use' the CAGED method: it just helped me a little in the beginning to remember the 5 patterns and in which order they should be played. That's all.

Still, I'll try to explain it my way, after which you can forget it all... ;)

By linking each pattern with a certain chord shape, it becomes easier (for some of us...) to remember the pattern itself AND the order in which the patterns have to be played. Everybody knows the basic chords C, A, G, E and D.

Well, it's not about the fact that there are numerous patterns with these CHORDSSHAPES in them (that's true): it's about the fact that each of the 5 patterns contains one of the 5 basis CHORD SHAPES with the RIGHT NOTES at the right spot!

Eaxmple:
Now, as you said, in the C-pattern you can see the C chord shape. Now you might say: I can see that C-chord-shape also in the pattern that 'belongs' to the G chord shape. Well, that's true. But... in the C-chord-shape-pattern the shape of the chord you see actually IS the chord!

If you play that C-pattern in a position where the root note is on the D on the fretboard, you will actually hear the notes that belong to the D chord when you play that shape you can see (not strum it as a chord, but play the individual notes that form the chord shape)!
Now play the G-shape-pattern at a position where the rootnote falls on the D too. When you now play that C-shape, which you can see in the G-pattern, you will hear a weird chord: not the notes that belong to the D-triad! The shape is there, but doesn't contain the notes of the actual chord. If you however play the G-shape, you WILL hear the right notes again!

Another example:
Take the E-chord-shape-pattern. Place it on the fretboard in such a way that the rootnote falls on the Bes. Now play (not strum, but note for note) that E-chord-shape. You will actually hear the Bes chord notes!
In the A-chord-shape-pattern you will also be able to see the E-chord-shape. But... If you place that A-pattern on the fretboard so the rootnote is Bes and play the E-shape... you will hear a weird chord! Only when you play the A-shape in that position, you will hear the Bes-chord notes!

The chord shape that gives its name to a certain pattern, actually contains the right notes from that chord (the triad)!

So... the CAGED system can help you to remember the 5 basic patterns more easily, it can help you to remember the order in which the patterns should be played and each chord shape is not only recognizable in the patterns, it can actually be played.

This system is only made to make things easier. Weird, huh...? ;)

As I said: if you already know the fretboard and where all the notes are and how to improvise... forget about it all! You don't really need it: it just might help you.

[Bongo Boy]

Thanks. Very nice job on the .pdf by the way. The way you laid out the patterns was also very helpful.

[szulc]

Bongo,
It is very simple.

The C chord hiding in the C Pattern is telling you where the roots are, just like the A chord hiding in the A pattern is telling you where the roots are. (or the N chord in the N pattern)

The idea is to learn the pattern that the roots of a particular major scale makes over the fingerboard and then to use the corresponding pattern from caged where the root of the caged chord is in superposition with the root of the major scale you are in. That is why the open position chord C maps into the C caged pattern at the open position or the open position A chord maps into the caged pattern at the 3rd fret (all in the key of C).

[SillyCone]

Originally posted by the new kid
By the way, are the Fretboard Logic books any good? I hear that they go into detail about the CAGED system. Any expieriences with the books?
I have it for a few weeks, and after reading the first few pages, I finally understood what the CAGED system was...

It's really all about finding patterns on the fretboard you can move to get other chords derived from the C,A,G,E,D form. The book explains the different forms you can make on the fretboard, then explains how to create chords with them.

For me (for now), the CAGED system just means that you can create barre chords based on the C open chord, the A open chord, etc. For example : the usual F maj full barre chord : it's really just an E maj moved 1 fret up and the index is used as a capo. But you could create a F maj barre chord also using a D form. Just make an open D maj chord, move it 3 frets up (D -> F = 3 frets) and place your index to barre the open chords : again an F maj. So you have 5 positions for any chord, each based on C, A, G, E, D forms.
I'm not sure everything I said sounds clear to anyone : 1 picture is worth a thousand words, and that's what provides "Fretboard Logic" along with a few explanations. All in all, a great book, usefull for any style of guitar music.
Of course, there's much more to "Fretboard Logic" than just some barre chords, there's also scales forms and in volume II all the other kinds of chord forms (7th, sus4, etc.) The author explains everything to help you understand why the fretboard is designed the way it is : out of pure genius !

Bongo Boy, if you don't have the book, get it first time monday morning :) If I understood well, you are quite a technical-logic-type-of-guy, and maybe it would be a nice way for you to get the intelligence under the hood of the guitar... At least it did it for me.

Cheers,
SillyCone.

[hellogoodbye]

Originally posted by szulc
Bongo,
It is very simple.

The C chord hiding in the C Pattern is telling you where the roots are, just like the A chord hiding in the A pattern is telling you where the roots are. (or the N chord in the N pattern)

The idea is to learn the pattern that the roots of a particular major scale makes over the fingerboard and then to use the corresponding pattern from caged where the root of the caged chord is in superposition with the root of the major scale you are in. That is why the open position chord C maps into the C caged pattern at the open position or the open position A chord maps into the caged pattern at the 3rd fret (all in the key of C).
Hm, how come you can tell it so clearly in a few words and I need ten times the amount of space to make it only more complicated...? ;)

BTW That 'pattern that the roots of a particular major scales makes' is my Single Note Pattern (see another post of mine)! This pattern is always the same and easy to remember. So there was no need to say 'the roots of a particular major scale' (which makes you think you have to learn diferent patterns for every particular scale) because EVERY SINGLE NOTE can be played all over the fretboard with this Single Note Pattern.

Just try it: play all C's on the fretboard and you'll see a pattern. Then play any other note and you'll see the exact same pattern, only in a different position.

Anyway, I didn't use the Caged idea anymore: I used my Single Note Pattern and just placed the patterns on it, not thinking about the Caged stuff anymore. But now you've said it this way, it is indeed easier to combine them both!

And once more I've got the feeling I'm trying to explain something in a simple way, but end up making a confusing (and long) mess off it... ;)

[hellogoodbye]

Originally posted by SillyCone
I have it for a few weeks, and after reading the first few pages, I finally understood what the CAGED system was...

It's really all about finding patterns on the fretboard you can move to get other chords derived from the C,A,G,E,D form. The book explains the different forms you can make on the fretboard, then explains how to create chords with them.

For example : the usual F maj full barre chord : it's really just an E maj moved 1 fret up and the index is used as a capo.

Is that all the book is about?!? I thought that was basic common knowledge...!!!
I thought Caged was meant to help you remember the patterns so you can play solo all over the fretboard in every key you want!

But maybe that will come after you've read some more pages of the book...? Have you already read more? I think this was just the intro to the real stuff...

[szulc]

Hm, how come you can tell it so clearly in a few words and I need ten times the amount of space to make it only more complicated...?

I try to be concise. I have been playing for over 30 years, so I think I understand this pretty well, by now.

It is all just one form of mathematics* or another, therefore it is pretty easy to be succinct.

*
Set theory; Study of collections of objects
Topology; Study of shapes and forms
Number Theory; Study of Numbers
Algebra; Tool to manipulate systems of numeric equations

[Bongo Boy]

Originally posted by szulc
It is very simple.Not just yet :)The C chord hiding in the C Pattern is telling you where the roots are, just like the A chord hiding in the A pattern is telling you where the roots are.They tell you where just ONE root is, correct?

[Bongo Boy]

Okay, if I don't ask these questions I'm going to fuse a neuron. These are True or False statements. Help me out.

1. Each of the five major-scale patterns can be played in any position of the fretboard, depending on the major scale I'd like and where on the neck I'd like to hear that scale (within the physical limits of the fretboard). Y/N?

2. For a given major scale pattern, the scale played is determined only by the placement of the pattern on the fretboard. Y/N?

3. If a chord is played using a particular set of notes that belong to a selected pattern, the name of that chord (using degree notation) is the same, and the voicing is the same, wherever that pattern is moved on the fretboard. Y/N?

[szulc]

I meant roots!

The C pattern C open position chord C CAGED pattern has a C on the third fret of the A string and a C on the first fret of the B string.

THe A pattern has C on the third fret of the A string and C on the 5th fret of the g string.

Look at the diagram I posted. The red squares are the roots the yellow box is the C position. The aqua box is the A position.
Notice how they overlap. The Green squares are the Major thirds, the Blue Squares are the Perfect Fifths. THe upper auqa box is in a slightly different place, I could have made it the same but I might play patterns that fit into either of these boxes similar reasoning could shift the E box slightly.

[SillyCone]

Originally posted by Bongo Boy
Okay, if I don't ask these questions I'm going to fuse a neuron. These are True or False statements. Help me out.
Okay, stay with us :)
A pitty coz I'm always curious about human minds reactions at extreme heats :p

If I understand english well enough, as well as the fretboard, I'd say :

1. Y
2. Y
3. Y

For me you pretty well got it. But hey, that means I got it too :)
Now the only thing that we've left to do is learn all the patterns and the notes on the strings so we can place them...
Hmm, that's a loada work, I shouldn't be hanging around like that in the forums, you make me remind it... Okay, guys, see you in a year or two :D

SillyNoMore.

PS : btw, all those questions are exactly those answered in "Fretboard Logic SE", in extensis, but amazingly simple to understand. In fact, it's very simple, once you see the fretboard as a matrix and understand the forms of the scales and chords, it kinds of comes totally clear. The fretboard is so theorically beautifull I'm amazed at it everyday. It's possible to approach the whole thing very scientifically and that makes it easier to some I guess, to me at least. Now I find it difficult to find the musicality in all that theory, maybe we just need to learn how to "write" before we "compose" a play ?

[szulc]

1 and 2 are yes,

I'll add to 1;
You can play any major scale anywhere on the fretboard.
CAGED doesn't allow for this by itself but you can do it.

I try and take a stab at 3;

If a chord is played using a particular set of notes that belong to a selected pattern, the name of that chord (using degree notation) is the same, and the voicing is the same, wherever that pattern is moved on the fretboard. Y/N?

The inversion/voicing is the same only the names are changed to protect the innocent.

[Bongo Boy]

Thanks for your time & patience, and for answering my silly questions. This has been difficult. I believe I understand the method now; still, its utility escapes me. All treatments of this topic are exactly opposite to the approach my dysfunctional brain expects, I guess.

It may not seem like 'the opposite approach' to you, but to me the logical sequence is:

1) Here are 5 patterns that allow you to play intervals in major scale sequence within a single position on the fretboard. [No brainer--you can 'see' the interval structure and count it out on the fretboard].

2) Notice where the roots are for each of the 5 patterns and memorize those root locations. [Another no brainer--you can hear the roots when you practice the patterns].

3) Notice that for any root note on any string, there are two patterns to choose from. [Seems that would be useful to know.]

4) Notice that all five patterns must be used to play a particular major scale over the entire fretboard, if you want to play in position. [Not intuitive, but easily verifiable.]

5) Since chords are scales and scales are chords, chord behavior corresponds to scale behavior when the patterns are moved around the fretboard.

I'm thinking that 15 years from now, after I've learned this all the 'hard way', I'll revisit CAGED and it will all make perfect sense. There is no way on Earth those 5 open chords are going to help me remember where root positions are--especially if I'd never actually play the chords as depicted in the Method. It's weird beyond belief. :)

[szulc]

Kirk,
Look at the diagram I put in this thread

http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=131

This might help you