Looking for lessons about improvising over 'weird' chord schemes...

[hellogoodbye]

I've been busy learning the big pattern, which enables me to play in a certain key all over the fretboard. It goes pretty well and I've learned it quicker than I though.

So... now it's time to go one step further. I still don't know really how to improvise over chord schemes that have chords that don't belong to the key the song is in.

Imagine I'm playing a song in C, and at a certain moment someone decides it's a nice idea to play a D instead of a Dm, to get a nice transition or whatever. What key should I temporarily be playing in now...? I now the F changes to F# for a moment. But there are cases when there are weird chords I don't really know: I only know that the scale I'm playing in isn't the right one...

Anyway, when the D is played I have to change momentarily to the scale (because that one has the F#). But I'm not certain about that. I guess I don't have to change to the D scale just because the chord is D...

So, to summarize my question: how do I know which key I have to play in when there is a chord that doesn't belong to the scale. Is there an easy way to know which scale you have to play momentarily, or do you really have to find out all the notes of the 'weird' chord and play them somehow...?

[forgottenking2]

I guess you could use the major scale, it wouldn't sound bad, or just sharp the 4th (F) and play G major against that D (which actually will make it D Mixolydian) A "trick" that works awesome on that (and then again it's not the only way to work that out) Play the lydian scale starting on the root of the "outsider chord" in your example being a D major you would play D lydian. This works for Major chords only though... for dominant chords you could use either Mixolydian or Lydian b7.... and there's more... well, just experiment and use your ear, don't try to force anything into a solo "because is the right way of doing it" just listen hard and experiment, you'll come up with your own choices.

I hope this helps.

Regards,

[hellogoodbye]

Well... I'm afraid that doesn't help enough... All things you explain are (somehow) clear, but a bit too complicated for me to figure out on the fly...

My example was rather simple, but there are also cases where a 'strange' chord comes along, and I really don't know what key I should be playing in.

I don't want to do anything just because 'it's the right thing to do', but I notice that I feel completely lost everytime there is an outsider chord: I suddenly find myself looking foor right notes and completely forget where I 'am' on the fretboard.

Aren't there any simple rules you can follow in cases like this? How do Jazz players know which scales they have to play? They have to change scales with every chord, it seems to me.

WHEN do you have to change to another scale and how do you know to WHICH scale you have to go? A beginner might think that when there suddenly comes a D in a C chord scheme, you'll have to play the D-scale. But that's not right. You're better off playing the G-scale. But what when you get a Bes? Or whatever?

There must be some basic rules here that could help me along. I guess...

[kotzen]

Hey Jason very cool exercises !! THANKS !!! :) more soloing ideas over "weird" chords please !!

Regards.

[S.Carter]

There's one simple concept that will take you a long way in improvising over chord changes:
To determine the scale for a chord, determine the chords effect on the preceding scale.

So you are on the right track when looking at the F# in a D major chord in the key of C.

"The preceding scale" simply means the scale you played over the preceding chord. So write out the notes of THAT scale, and change only the notes that are changed by the non-diatonic chord. Then look at the resulting scale and try to recognize it as a major or minor scale. In this case, it's just G major.

Here's are some examples:
CMaj7 BbMaj7

C D E F G A B C
C D E F G A Bb C = F scale

CMaj7 Bb7

C D E F G A B C
C D E F G Ab Bb C = F Real Melodic Minor scale

Steve

[hellogoodbye]

Jason! I see you posted some stuff while I was typing... My remark about not understanding it yet was not meant for your powertabs... I'll check them out now!

BTW What is the latest version of Powertab...?

Edit:
Well, I just looked at the powertabs, but... it doesn't explain me anything... I can't see why or how or when scales change... I need some theory, I guess...

[szulc]

In general you want to change as few notes as possible to get to the new key.

So I suggest you study the circle of 4ths/5ths.
If you raise the 4th tone 1/2 step (F to F# in the key of C)
and start on the 5th you have one of the two closest related major scales (F [Bb] and G [F#]Major).
If you lower the seventh tone 1/2 step and start on the 4th you are in the other closest related major scale, in this case F.

A similar process can be used to navigate to Melodic or Harmonic Minor tonalities.
You can get to the Parallel MM by lowering the 3rd 1/2 step, you can get the II MM by raising the root 1/2 step, you can ge tto the relative MM by raising the 4th and 5th tones.

You can get to the Relative HM by raising the 5th 1/2 step.
You can get to the Parallel HM by lowering the 3rd and 6th 1/2 step. You can get the II HM by lowering the 7th and raising the root.

[chris]

Hey Szulc, can you elaborate more on the circle of fifths/fourths? Do you have any links to in depth articles? Thanks

[hellogoodbye]

Originally posted by szulc
raise the 4th tone
start on the 5th
lower the seventh tone
start on the 4th

lowering the 3rd
raising the root
raising the 4th and 5th tones

raising the 5th
lowering the 3rd and 6th
lowering the 7th
raising the root
Hm, I think I'd better work hard on getting to know the notes better (relative to the root)! Apparently you can't get any further without that knowledge. I knew that, of course, but I was hoping for an easy way out...

I know my patterns and the root, but when I have to lower the 5th note (for instance) I still have to count too much... I think it's HIGH time to say each note number (relative to the root) aloud while playing. That might help.

Or are there any other nice tricks to get to know all the notes numbers relative to the root? I like it when there are shortcuts for something (like my own Single Note Pattern, which only I myself seem to understand... ;) ).

[szulc]

Search articles for "Alternate View"

[CURT #3000]

hellogoodbye ... thought it might be useful to give you a solid example of an ‘outside’ chord being thrown into the mix & how it can be approached in different ways.

Last night I had a very long ‘bluesy’ jam session with a few guitar buddies. Obviously with blues, we weren’t thinking too much about our note selection – we were just going for total ‘feel’ & emotion. Unfortunately a spanner was thrown into the works when it was my turn to get a tune going & I chose Badlands’ (or rather James Taylor’s) "Fire & Rain." The song is in C Major & the basic chord progression is …

C--- Gm --- F --- C then C --- G --- F --- C etc.
//// //// //// //// --------- //// //// //// ////

Now, if the chords were just C G & F, everybody could have just breezed over it with a C Major scale, but the inclusion of the Gm in the 2nd bar can throw you because the b3rd of Gm (Bb) doesn’t appear in C Major. If you substitute the 3rd of G Major (B) for the Bb (& no other notes) you will outline a C Mixolydian scale/mode. Compare…

C Major: C D E F G A B
C Mixolydian: C D E F G A Bb

You’ve now got a choice of how you approach the tune. A couple of my friends looked at the first 4 bars & decided that because the chords all fit in with C Mixolydian, they’d knock out some Mixolydian tonality over the C Gm ‘and’ F. They then switched to C Maj for the next four bars. This works OK, but personally I prefer to keep to the C Maj tonality on all the chords (apart from a few ‘passing’ tones for colour) until the Gm occurs. When I touch on the Mixolydian over the Gm & ‘tastefully’ emphasise the Bb, the chord change has so much more of an emotional impact to my ears. Another friend (who doesn’t like to ‘think’ about note selection at all) stuck to his trusty Maj pentatonic (C D E G A) over every chord, which, with some creative phrasing, also sounded really great. This ‘simplified’ approach should also not be ignored & a good mix of the two is how I like to approach my own improv/composition.

Check out the main theme to Steve Vai’s “For the Love of God.” The chord transition of Emadd9 to FM7#11 suggests a Phrygian tonality, but the real beauty of the melody is that Steve sticks to Em pentatonic. Just because he doesn’t hit the F, doesn’t mean that the Phrygian tonality disappears – you can still hear the FM7#11 in the background. In fact, in many instances like this, avoiding these key notes can actually have ‘more’ of an emotional impact on the listener. It’s as though your melody becomes the ‘grounded’ tonal centre & it's the job of the backing chords to move under you & produce the more sophisticated over-all tonality. It’s this sort of subtlety that, to my ears, really sorts the men out from the boys when it comes to really connecting with the listener on an emotional level. Just a few personal thoughts. Hope this helps ... CURT. :)

[hellogoodbye]

Thanks, Curt, it really helped. Now I know there is no easy trick to avoid hitting wrong notes... ;) First of all you got to know your chords and scales and modes! If you don't know the theory, you'll never make it. But I also learned (as I already knew, of course) is that you've got to listen to what you hear and play! Obvious, yes. But as you said in the example where Vai just 'follows his ears', you can get beautifull results.

All in all it 'just' takes a lot of experience...

Still, I really got to study on the scales, chords and modes. I understand your first example with the Gm, but I am not able to think of all that on the fly. At this moment this would require me to write things down, to study every chord and find out what's best to play against it.

Hey! While I'm writing this down I guess I found one EASY way out! (I usually discover and learn the most by writing things down: it's as if that forces me to think better about it all!)

One thing I learned now (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that the best and easiest thing to do is keep on playing in the scale you were playing and, when a chords comes along that doesn't belong to the scale, ONLY change the notes that have changed due to that chord!

So... there is no need to change to completely new scales, but, as in your Gm case, only change the B into Bes. In fact, while doing so, I don't even have to KNOW that the result will be Myxolidian!!!

I was thinking I had to know all those modes in order to know which one I had to play. But that's not necessary! You got to see it the other way around: only change the changed notes, temporarily altering the scale/pattern, and that's it! And if you realise afterwards you were playing Myxolydian or Phrygian or whatever, that's nice, but (in this case) not really necessary.

Right...?

So the most important thing right now is to know the chords: you've got to know which chords is 'non-scale' and which notes have changed.

Ah, learning and discovering the guitar this way is great fun! :)

[szulc]

I don't think Jason's native language is english or his native habitat is the computer room.

[hellogoodbye]

Originally posted by szulc
I don't think Jason's native language is english or his native habitat is the computer room.
Well... you're wrong... Twice! ;)

Jason Macedo's site! (http://www.geocities.com/perpetualburn/)

Edit:

I just saw you typed 'Be nice' above your post! Apparently I didn't add enough smileys... :) :D ;) :p :cool: :rolleyes:

For everyone who reads this: whenever I say something that sounds unfriendly, be sure it wasn't meant that way! I would never post anything hatefull, since I'm always in a pretty nice mood. So please read all my posts with lots of smileys in your mind! ;)

[szulc]

Sorry for misinterperting.
I was just trying to avoid the next flame war.

[hellogoodbye]

It's okay. All is deleted and forgotten now!

I'm going to look at Jason's Powertab now!