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szulc
07-29-2002, 09:47 PM
# I # ii # iii # IV # V # vi # vii
# IV # V # vi vii # I # ii # iii
vii # I # ii iii # IV # V # vi
iii # IV # V vi vii # I # ii
vi vii # I ii iii # IV # V
ii iii # IV V vi vii # I
V vi vii I ii iii # IV
I ii iii IV V vi vii
IV V vi b vii I ii iii
b vii I ii b iii IV V vi
b iii IV V b vi b vii I ii
b vi b vii I b ii b iii IV V
b ii b iii IV b V b vi b vii I
b V b vi b vii b I b ii b iii IV
b I b ii b iii b IV b V b vi b vii

Cycle 5/4

szulc
07-29-2002, 09:49 PM
# IV # V # vi vii # I # ii # iii
iii # IV # V vi vii # I # ii
ii iii # IV V vi vii # I
I ii iii IV V vi vii
b vii I ii b iii IV V vi
b vi b vii I b ii b iii IV V
b V b vi b vii b I b ii b iii IV







Cycle b7/2

szulc
07-29-2002, 09:51 PM
# IV # V # vi vii # I # ii # iii
vi vii # I ii iii # IV # V
I ii iii IV V vi vii
b iii IV V b vi b vii I ii
b V b vi b vii b I b ii b iii IV



Cycle 6 /m3

szulc
07-29-2002, 09:52 PM
iii # IV # V vi vii # I # ii
I ii iii IV V vi vii
b vi b vii I b ii b iii IV V



Cycle m6/3

szulc
07-29-2002, 09:52 PM
# IV # V # vi vii # I # ii # iii
IV V vi b vii I ii iii
iii # IV # V vi vii # I # ii
b iii IV V b vi b vii I ii
ii iii # IV V vi vii # I
b ii b iii IV b V b vi b vii I
I ii iii IV V vi vii
vii # I # ii iii # IV # V # vi
b vii I ii b iii IV V vi
vi vii # I ii iii # IV # V
b vi b vii I b ii b iii IV V
V vi vii I ii iii # IV
b V b vi b vii b I b ii b iii IV




Cycle 7/b2

szulc
07-29-2002, 09:53 PM
Put That in your pipe and Smoke it!

EricV
07-29-2002, 10:18 PM
Did ya ever check out the "Thesaurus Of Scales & Melodic Patterns" ? :)

szulc
07-29-2002, 10:28 PM
Slonimsky

I was hoping this thread would be thought provoking, and cause some people to think about cycle without key reference. I didn't intend for it to be a scale reference. Somthing like pick any major scale and b the 3rd and 7th, start on b7 ( b7 Major) or b 3 b6 and b7 start on b3 (b3 Major).

Does this make sense?

EricV
07-29-2002, 10:42 PM
Hey,

I do think it makes sense. I was just kidding, referring to Slonimsky... I actually was impressed by your posting,must have been a whole lot of work.
This really is an interesting concept, thanks for sharing !
Warm regards
Eric

szulc
07-29-2002, 11:04 PM
Excel makes this pretty easy!

Have you heard Skolnick's "Standards for a new Generation"?
It is refreshing to hear things like "Still Lovin You" and "Detroit Rock City" done in this style. I think I could play this for my Dad and he would like it.

EricV
07-30-2002, 09:41 AM
I only heard the "Detroit Rock City" version, and I liked that one a lot. Gotta check out the rest of the CD...
Itīs a cool concept...
Warm regards
Eric

szulc
12-18-2002, 12:10 AM
My resurrected thread for the day!
Since I have exhausted (temporarily) my cool thought provoking ideas, I am now on a mission to resurrect my old cool threads or answers to posts. This is one of my favorites!

Bongo Boy
12-18-2002, 03:53 AM
Not as baffling as the first time I saw it, but questions came up.

What's the underlying motivation? Why?

What's the basis for selecting a) the degree(s) to alter and b) the degree to cycle on?

These aren't actually cycles, right? I mean, they don't return to the original scale.

badgas
12-18-2002, 08:14 AM
Originally posted by szulc
Slonimsky

I was hoping this thread would be thought provoking, and cause some people to think about cycle without key reference. I didn't intend for it to be a scale reference. Somthing like pick any major scale and b the 3rd and 7th, start on b7 ( b7 Major) or b 3 b6 and b7 start on b3 (b3 Major).

Does this make sense?

I sure don't know what that means.
Maybe if I knew what the numbers like,
Cycle 5/4
Cycle b7/2
etc. meant.

I'm assuming that the horizonal list of numbers are notes, not chord progressions.
Each one is a scale of it's own, within ?.

I read about the circle of 5ths. Is this simular?
I'm really lost with this one.

szulc
12-18-2002, 10:37 AM
Following the columns up or down gives you the cycle.
One number gives you the cycle inteval moving up the column and the other down the column.
The row that starts with I is your starting reference.
This can also give you the information about which notes to raise or lower to move from one key to any other key, by any interval jump. Several of these are not complete cycles, because they are an even number of half steps apart.

badgas
12-18-2002, 05:35 PM
Oh, up and down.
I was going across.

Thanks szulc.

Bongo Boy
12-19-2002, 02:45 AM
Originally posted by badgas
I read about the circle of 5ths. Is this simular?Similar in terms of the mechanics of producing each row. For example, in James' first installment (Cycle 4/5), find the major scale structure--it's about the middle row. Instead of applying the circle of 5ths rules to generate the next 'row', look at his next row and see what rules he applied to get it. 'Programatically'...similar.

badgas
12-19-2002, 04:36 AM
Thanks for the instructions, Bongo.
Sorry but I'm a bit dense sometimes and it adds to the confusion. :confused:

I see what's going on now.

szulc
12-19-2002, 05:16 AM
The purpose here is to demonstrate that there is a mathmatical way to get from any key to any other key by applying the accidental to the correct scale degrees. And it is organized by interval from the original root. You will see that the same transform is applied to each successive generation away from the original root. This is exactly like the circle of fifths (the first one is the circle of fifths) except it is completely dereferenced and I am demonstrating the relationships in other interval rings beside the usual fifths and fourths.

badgas
12-19-2002, 05:58 AM
Bingo, the light just clicked on, szulc.
Thanks for that extra explaination.

szulc
12-20-2002, 02:14 AM
Lets say you wanted to be able to move from a particular major scale to the relative minor.

What is the relation ship between the root of the original scale and the new major scale (Ionian Mode).
You can look at this a couple of different ways.
Lets use some specific examples.

In C major there are no sharps or flats.
What is the Sixth tone of C major? (A)
What is the relative Minor of C? (A Minor)
What is the interval between A and C? (m3)
So up a m3 from C is what note? (Eb)
So C should be the sixth tone of Eb Major and C Minor must be the relative minor of Eb Major.
So to use the rings you want to move up a m3 (with cycle 4 this is 3rd order F Bb Eb, so it takes three jumps in the cycle four ring to make this move, adding 3 flats)

The m3 ring get you there in one jump, adding three flats. To move from a minor to the relative major you just need to go the other direction subtract three flats (or add three sharps).

Chim_Chim
12-20-2002, 03:24 AM
I'm glad you resurected this thread.I was thinking about doing this myself.I saw this awhile back and was just thinking about it and wanted to ask how to read the columns and what the point was you were trying to make.Luckily you've all asked all of the right questions already and so all that is left for me is to maybe print this stuff up and study it really closely and re-read all of the fine points.

All I can say is (((WOW)))!

Thanks szulc,very thought provoking stuff indeed !

Chim

szulc
12-20-2002, 04:05 AM
Cool I am glad you dig it!

Chim_Chim
12-20-2002, 06:29 AM
Okay I thought I was understanding this fully except that maybe I needed to re-read and study it further.

Then I thought maybe I didn't quite understand and I was trying to work up some questions and was working on a rather large post but was having trouble forming my questions and then my phone kept ringing and and ringing and I got all screwed up by one long conversation and then the damn thing just kept ringing... :mad: frustrating ! ! ! ! arhhhhh...

So I went back and studied and re-read some more and then studied the images and now I think I understand once again ;)

:confused: I swear I'm gonna shoot my damn phone

Stand by...more questions may indeed arise...

Chim_Chim

badgas
12-20-2002, 10:16 AM
I know what you mean Chim.
I live alone with some animals. My daughter and her kids are here for the holidays. No peace. No privacy. I can't study nor practice without someone wanting me to teach them something.

I know what you mean.....

szulc
12-20-2002, 12:21 PM
I am waiting patiently!

Bongo Boy
12-20-2002, 07:05 PM
Well, looks like we need another iBreathe Award category--this time a "Most Interesting Thread that Initially Appeared DOA but was Only Lying Dormant for a Long Time Award". :D

NP: Shortnin' Bread, The Cramps

Chim_Chim
12-20-2002, 09:04 PM
Ha ha,you nailed it badgas...it's the "holidays" !
My family kept calling trying to coordinate gifts etc. - LOL !

badgas
12-21-2002, 12:36 AM
Sorry Bongo.
Rest assured, it will not happen again, Ever!

szulc
12-21-2002, 01:01 AM
What are you apologizing to Bongo For?
This thread is getting hard to follow.

metallibeast
12-21-2002, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by Bongo Boy
Well, looks like we need another iBreathe Award category--this time a "Most Interesting Thread that Initially Appeared DOA but was Only Lying Dormant for a Long Time Award". :D



Juz wondering what the other iBreathe Awards are?

-Beast

szulc
12-21-2002, 01:27 AM
Juz wondering what the other iBreathe Awards are? All in Bongo's Mind

szulc
04-12-2003, 02:54 PM
I have resurrected this once again since I have now decided to compose an artice based on these concepts. Add comments and question so I can address them in my next article.

The Bash
04-18-2003, 11:06 PM
Hey James,
Looking forward to the New Article.
Other than that I ain't got anything intelligent to add, so consider this a Reassurance vote :)

szulc
05-17-2003, 03:12 AM
(Cycle 4)
1473625

(Order of Flats to add to change keys, up N fourths.)
7362514

Flats cancel sharps in the above order.

(Cycle 5)
1526374

(Order of Sharps to add to change keys, up N fifths.)
4152637

Sharps cancel flats in the above order.

For instance Eb Major up M3 to G Major.
To get to G from Eb you need to move 4 P5's up from the root (not necessarily in that octave, but in ANY octave Eb Bb F C G), so
you need to raise (sharp) the following scale degrees 4 1 5 2 or Ab to A, Eb to E, Bb to B and F to F#.

Conversely lets move from C up a m3 to Eb this is 3 P4's up from C. C F Bb Eb, so you need to lower the following scale degrees,
7, 3 and 6 or B to Bb, E to Eb and A to Ab.

Notice how the Cycle 4 is exactly the opposite of Cycle 5 (Duh!)
This is because 4ths are inveted 5ths and vice versa.

Ever notice how (vi ) ii V i is a Diatonic Cycle 4 progression?

Or V I IV?

If you are a fan of Bach or Paganinni vi ii V I IV viio III7 (V7 of vi ) vi.

If you analyze most popular tunes you will find plenty of examples of diatonic Cycle 4.

The Bash
05-20-2003, 06:19 PM
This is cool, but I like mind games.

I tend to see this as a circle (which it is, brillant huh), that you just go forward or backwards around (again another brillant idea).
Though laid out in a never ending straight line the point to me becomes clearer.

14736251473625

For instance Eb Major up M3 to G Major.

14736(2514)73625

C up a m3 to Eb

14(736)251473625

Since there inverses of each other

14(7362514)73625

I've complteted a set.

Ok I know seeing this in this way makes no sense to no one but myself. But besides my view being rather strange I belive the point is correct. Or maybe my views not all that out there as I'm viewing it as a small pattern extracted from a larger pattern without begining and end. (ok that was out there I know :) )

The Bash
05-20-2003, 06:22 PM
I guess the point is view it as 1 item. In this case one set of numbers in endless circle and simply roll around the wheel forward or back. All things must balance when viewing inverses.
Trust me this makes sense to me, though I might need to see a shrink :)

The Bash
07-07-2003, 11:27 PM
I Guess this is obvious, but perhaps overlooked.
But this entire thought process can be apllied to Minor as well.
Am-Em-Bm etc.

Raise the 6th of Am to go to Em
Raise the 6th and 3rd of Am to go to Bm etc.

As I said obvious, but perhaps overlooked.
I tend to think in Minor as opposed to Major so maybeit might make more sense for someone to view it that way.

I see a lot of questions on scale pattens.
They have there use.
But really there are no "Almighty Scale Patterns"
There are only Notes.
We cut them up all nice and neat into patterns.
This is very useful for consumption, but at som,e point we must put them all back togher again.

Hey, James mind sharing some various ways to practice/aplly this stuff. I've been practicing this stuff myself and would like some inspiration/ new ideas etc.
Once you get familar with where the note changes occur it becomes easy to fall into that non-thinking trap again.
I find maybe mixing it up say instead of C-G-D-A-E Etc.
Play C-D-G-A-B-E etc. major scale wize.
or C-A-G-E etc.

szulc
07-07-2003, 11:42 PM
Take some chord changes that change keys (Jazz tunes).
Record them and apply this concept to navigate from key center to key center. Another side to this is navigating to Melodic from the dorian mode (#7) or from ionian (b3) or from Aeolian (#6).
To harmonic from Aeolian (#7). This is a method of playing over key changes.

szulc
07-07-2003, 11:46 PM
Analyze a chord progression make some choices about what major scales or keys must be chosen to improvise over these changes. Then apply this concept to navigate the key changes.

The whole point of this thread was to de-reference the actual key just like using roman numerals for chords. So once you know a chord change structure, you can apply this concept to navigate the key or mode changes.