Tremolo picking

[Unhorizon]

I'm just curious if when you tremolo pick you can pick from the elbow, or where you should pick from. Because, if I try to tremolo pick from my wrist, I don't get very fast... when I use my elbow I can get up to a pretty decent sounding speed(I haven't checked it with a metronome, but I'd estimate somewhere in the 200 bpm range, which is good for me). So can you use your elbow to tremolo pick?

[Unhorizon]

Just gonna boost this back up to the top.

[Bizarro]

It doesn't really matter. Vinnie Moore is an "elbow" dude. More people seem to use wrist from what I've seen.

Do what feels the most natural.

[Schooligo]

along with what Bizarro said about doing what feels most natural,

it's important that whatever way is most natural for you to pick when using tremolo picking, that when choosing a method:

you take into account that you are able to keep a STEADY relaxed and in rhythm tempo, that will in turn allow you to have almost unlimited endurance for any future challenges.

[maglor]

I have been playing guitar for a long time. I remember when i was told it does not matter! the differance in the two styles of tremolo is one...wrist is harder a lot harder...no one ever just starts that natural. second..if you use the wrist correctly with much practise the articulation is of another quality all together...i remember once when i was a kid i saw roy clark do it on a mandolin..did some cool russian folk tune...the most famous user of wrist is prolly eddie van halen watch him truely unreal...oh one more thing...if you practise wrist you can use elbow better! lol but elbow yeilds no wrist

[ColoradoBulldog]

If you do choose to tremolo pick from the elbow, make sure you're loose and relaxed. If you're just tensing up your arm to pick fast, you can develop some serious problems later on.

You can get just as fast tremolo picking with your wrist (see Gilbert, Lane, etc), and there's less of a chance of you hurting yourself. You can go your entire life tremolo picking from the elbow with no problems, as long as you're tension-free and relaxed (this goes for all facets of guitar playing).

Of course you can hurt yourself just the same picking from the wrist, or the elbow, or the fingers or whatever. Just be sure with any method you choose, to be relaxed and coordinated.

[Diabolet]

DOing it from the wrist is more likely to cause damage as your rubbing the tendons against there tubeing, Its not a natural day to day movement, using the forearm to pick like mike angelo and vinnie moore is much more natural. On power licks it would seem lane is using his arm aswell. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1938099378022643751&q=shawn+lane&pl=true

[Jackel]

I use my elbow but that's what I did naturally. At first it was hard because my forearm would just give out on me, but now it's fine. Like all things' it just takes some time.

[superlocrian]

Initially I also used to pick from the elbow as it gave me more speed, but as others have said I tired quickly and my elbow got tense and stiff. I think a lot of players initially look to the elbow for speed because it's easier. I personally prefer using the wrist now. Using your wrist takes way more practice, but in the end you will find it worth it.

That is not to say that you can't ever use your elbow, I find that sometimes when I execute an agressive metal chog, I will put some elbow movement into it.

Perhaps you can also experiment with your grip on the pick. About 3 years ago I converted to the 3 fingered grip and found that suddenly I had more control, speed and attack.

[maglor]

i just found a cool article written by a mandolinist...she gave best guitar lesson in print i ever saw. basicly it went like this...test yourself...does the string move when you pick and does the string move the pick?..if so you are ready to proceed..*think thats saying dont hold pick tight* begin slowley and pick must pivot with each stroke..once you have speed you will begin to ad dynamics wich is the true strength of the technique...for us rockers tho there is a place for elbow for instance if you want muting....

[Padawan]

I always wondered if mandolists use their wrist or their elbow for AP...and if I can tremolo pick on the guitar, will it be easy to do that on Mandolin?
I fell in love with the sound when I saw the godfather and the mandolin played the theme...:rolleyes: ...best movie ever:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[ColoradoBulldog]

DOing it from the wrist is more likely to cause damage as your rubbing the tendons against there tubeing, Its not a natural day to day movement, using the forearm to pick like mike angelo and vinnie moore is much more natural. On power licks it would seem lane is using his arm aswell. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1938099378022643751&q=shawn+lane&pl=true

Lane and Angelo are wrist pickers -- they've said so themselves. When playing at the hyper speeds that they do, it can be easy to confuse wrist movement for arm movement. But both of them are, without a doubt, wrist pickers.

As for damaging your wrist, I believe you have things backwards.

Your arm really isn't built for the small movements that your wrist was made for. Make a fist and lift it with your arm in one big motion. No big deal, right? Now try to do it 10 times in one second, or 15, or 20. It can work (i.e. Vinnie Moore), but it takes special care to not damage anything. Try the same thing with your wrist; much less tense.

Your arm and shoulder work best when they're supporting your wrist in picking. I'm not just talking out of my arse here, look at Gilbert, Lane, Cooley, Petrucci, all of them use their arms as a "crane" to move their wrists around. Their arms are held still and relaxed, while the wrist is doing the majority of the work.

It's very possible to pick from the arm with no difficulty or injury, but doing it from the wrist is NOT more likely to cause damage. Tension can cripple both techniques; the key is relaxation and effortlessness -- the speed comes later.

[Diabolet]

Yea i see your right with lane for the most part.

Im not wrong with mike, the muscles are tensed in the arm. If you watch basic training by rusty cooley he says that fast picking comes from the arm with a little wrist action. Look how tense he is here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aVlLguYkIY&search=rusty%20cooley The force behind the picking is most certainly coming from the forearm. Compared to his sweeping and legato approach its very tense.

The way mike angelo puts his fingers between the pickups would limit most movement by the wrist leaving the forearm in control... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0TeVvLAm4M&search=michael%20angelo as you can see its slight movements from the forearm.

Those guys are masters of picking.

I have all of mikes instructional videos and alot of magazine interviews and iv never heard him talk of a wrist or arm action. He explains both methods usually but says that his own method suits him, using the pick like a pin on a record machine, all he says is that he doesnt flick the thumb.

What i was saying about carpul tunnel cyndrome is from watching stanley jordens master session, he talks alot about how you develop it and what to avoid and wrist action is one if the main causes. If you can control your forearm without tensing up you can attain much great speed.

[superlocrian]

Paul Gilbert definitely picks from the wrist and it's very visible on the Intense Rock I and II vids. His forearm hardly moves except for when the he needs to move the wrist to a new position.

Carpal Tunnel Syndrome as well as other tendon injuries result from incorrect technique and lack of stretching and warming up. Playing exclusively from your elbow or wrist will not result in injury if done correctly.

All guitarists need to find their niche when it comes to playing the guitar. Marty Friedman has got the weirdest grip on the pick ever, yet still produces quality with the instrument.

[Diabolet]

Doctors told stanley that he would get it in around 20 years if he continued to play the way he was, its consistant rubbing of the tendons against the tubes, its not the same as tendonitis. People like shaun baxter and guthrie govan have said that playing from the elbow or exclusivly from anypart of the body will end in injury later on, its not a natural human movement. Its hard to know exactly what your doing anyway. Having a developed forearm used for heavy loads and workouts will increase your picking stamina and wont be prone to pains.

Marty isnt much of a picker he says, somtimes its all legato somtimes is half and half, he never felt the need to develop it.

There both valid techniques but faster pickers seem to pick from the arm. Tremolo is about picking fast.

[superlocrian]

Paul Gilbert has been playing at the speed of light from the early eighties. If you consider all the albums, live shows, clinics etc that he has done for the last 25 years, according to youe theory he should already have an acute case of Carpal Tunnel.

In the end of the day it really doesn't matter as long as you feel you are not injuring yourself. If you find that you have pain anywhere in your wrist, forearm, fingers or hand then you need to review your technique.

I am not saying that you are incorrect about Stanley, but rather that just because one player experienced something that it does not apply to all.

Paul Gilbert and Bruce Bouillet played together in Racer X. Bruce was an amazing player and went on to develop problems with his tendons or muscles or something, (I am not sure on the exact story, maybe one you guys know) where as Paul continued. I guess what I am trying to say is sometimes it's just luck of the draw.

I remember Eric V saying that he has just been "lucky" with injuries.

[Diabolet]

Of course pauls very good at picking but you should check out the videos i posted to see the arm movement, mike and rusty are alot better pickers in terms of speed, and base most of there carriers on it, if you want to play fast with alternate picking, following in there example and what method they use, till you find your own, would be a good step.

Yea i didnt say its garunteed, i might be dead in 20 years anyway lol.

If bruce got problems, he was taught by paul. so him using his picking technique isnt a wrong asumption.

[superlocrian]

Yeah, picking fast is always a tricky subject as there seems to be so many theories. I myself can only hope to be as good as Cooley, Angelo etc. The wrist works for me at the moment, but then again I am constantly experimenting with my technique to hone it.

By the way, if you like Angelo go and check out www.angelo.com there is an insane dual neck solo to watch. very entertaining.

[Diabolet]

Lol yea hes great on that. Im a member of the forum there.

Rusty cooleys basic training is a good dvd to get if you want to get your picking and legato skills increased, he says at the start that both methods of picking are ok, you dont have to pick like him to play like that. Even if your an advanced player dont let the 'basic' part ruin any interest. The examples are as worthy as those on Intense rock 1, but theres alot more of them, rusty used to use rock disipline alot he mentions.

[ColoradoBulldog]

I think you're right on Cooley, my apologies. But Angelo...

The way mike angelo puts his fingers between the pickups would limit most movement by the wrist leaving the forearm in control... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0TeVvLAm4M&search=michael%20angelo as you can see its slight movements from the forearm.

Actually, watch his index finger. His arm is just moving his wrist around the strings, but his arm isn't doing the actual picking, it's supporting his fingers and wrist.

You sound much more familiar with Angelo than I am, but from that video, doesn't it look like he's using his fingers? I'm not trying to disprove you or anything, just...please clear this up for me :p

And to be honest, Gilbert can keep up with the best of them when he wants to, it's not a bad idea to follow his picking example at all.

As for Bruce developing problems from following Paul's teaching...When Bruce and Paul met in GIT back in the 80s, Bruce already had his technique down pretty well. Paul, to my knowledge, didn't teach him as much in terms of picking or speed in general, as he did composition, and phrasing.

Gilbert also taught Buckethead, who's an incredible speed picker. But I don't think that argument is very valid.

[Diabolet]

Heres a better video, mikes thin enough to see the muscle working near his elbow, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JclbDms4kjw&search=michael%20angelo

Compare that to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pja0IQnZcH8&search=george%20lynch You can see the difference.

I didnt say it was a bad idea to copy him, but for good fast alternate picking mike angelos one of the best as is rusty cooley.

Alot of guitarists do use picking from the wrist when there playing legato or string skipped legato ideas though. Even when a guitarist is speed picking there wrist will move as it is relaxed but if you look at the forearm, which has back up from the biscep, when thats tensed or being used all pressure and movement is coming from there.

[maglor]

i'm sorry guys who are these great pickers you speak of. if you want to see the real deal watch van halen live without a net. i mentioned roy clarck..another friend mentioned an unkown actor playing in god father 3..now thats picking.. its not a matter of what injurs..one is to never never press pain...its the quality of articulation...dynamics etc...with us rockers we have to use a variety of technique to produce the sounds we love and not sound like ....whats the word...i have seen guys...really good players use the elbow to convey a van halen tremolo run. yes they were fast ..yes it sounded fine..but when compared to the real deal the tech comes up way short..way short...i have heard on other forums that ed is an alien and it cant be done..but thats lazyness. my limited practise has already produced great results in all ereas of right hand development from wrist tremolo practise. one of our friends here mentioned using a 3 finger pick i think it was..i dont do that myself..i decided to switch to using my middle finger instead of index about 6 years ago and have not looked back..way more attack...i bet this guy sounds terrific

[vaiaficionado]

hey maglor, not to bust ur bubble or be offensive or anything but most people here are quite aware that it's not technique that's the big picture but articulation, variety and all the things that could possibly make ur music interesting. van halen is a good guitarist but even taking eruption short or long version into account, he isn't that much of a shredder compared to guys like rusty cooley and michael angelo.

the point of this thread is for technique. just so that no one runs into a wall physically when trying to express. articulation and all that type of stuff are a whole different ball game.

[maglor]

*looks up rusty cooley* hi friend i'm sure rusty is great player..but thats not the point. we are talking tremolo. are you saying that rusty is an elbow player? everyone uses elbow..weather they are good at it or not..but not everyone can flick that wrist as the saying goes..."its all in the wrist"

[vaiaficionado]

heyo maglor. yep, i think he's an elbow player. i'm sorry, it's been a while since i've seen a video of him playing. haha.

well, as for wrist players, although vai's specialty isn't picking, i remember seeing him use his wrist during some of his fast picking runs.

[maglor]

heyo maglor. yep, i think he's an elbow player. i'm sorry, it's been a while since i've seen a video of him playing. haha.

well, as for wrist players, although vai's specialty isn't picking, i remember seeing him use his wrist during some of his fast picking runs.

lol...i'm not a vai student yet but i heard one of his students once.. gods..as i understand tremolo picking its not that big a deal(lazy practise since my first post proves that)...not lot of talent involved just practise...like i said wrist practise yeilds what an elbow can do or better put your elbow will be better...my guess is vai can haul *** either way...its eds thing tho so prolly kept undercover...first time i ever saw it done was on he haw..yeah ed was watching it too..old man he is...*wants to throw up*

[Dommy]

Make sure you're getting a good solid tone on your tremolo at lower speeds...build up. It's important to know how to use movement from your elbow.

[EricV]

Of course pauls very good at picking but you should check out the videos i posted to see the arm movement, mike and rusty are alot better pickers in terms of speed,

Of course all this is a matter of opinion, so I guess I can throw in my opinion without this turning into some wild flame war.
I think one aspect people tend to forget about this kinda stuff is "control" and tone. Don´t get me wrong, Rusty and Michael A. are great pickers, but a) does it really matter if they´re, say, 15 bpm faster at picking 16ths on a string than Paul ( if they really are, because I don´t know whether any of them ever displayed their absolute top limit on record ) ?
Even though I know that some people might get more nps than Paul, what I always liked about Paul was his control, and the volume and attack he gets out of his picking.
Not that Rusty and Michael don´t have that, but I prefer to listen to Paul when it comes to fast picking ( which is due to some other factors too ). And I do respect and like Rusty and Mike a lot.
I at some point slowed down some fast picking runs by guys like Gilbert and Buckethead, and some guys who allegedly were even faster ( and I think I saw someone else did the same at some other forum ). And when you slowed it down, some of them didn´t sound as fast and controlled as Gilbert did. At some point you´d hear that not all the notes were picked anymore, that some were accidentially picked twice, that the attack would greatly differ between notes etc. This is stuff that, at certain speeds and with certain sounds, tends to become less obvious.
I am not a Gilbert fan boy who won´t accept any negative thing said about him, but in my experience, even though the mere NPS of someone might be higher, I find it highly debatable whether it really is or how much the higher speed actually is worth, when tone, difficulty of the lick played and control are factors often left out. And once again, I am not saying Cooley and Angelo lack those things or anything.
I just always felt more attracted by the sound and attack Gilbert got, and care for that more than for the fact that some other player is 10 bpm faster than him
Again, just my opinion
Eric

[Thorsten]

I think players like Gilbert, Malmsteen or Vinnie Moore are playing at the highest possible speed that is still musical. Anything faster than that simply isn´t physically controllable anymore with your left and right hand in terms of tone, attack and synchronization and it´s just a fast, sloppy blur of notes that doesn´t make any sense musically. Think of it like a classical violinist: He/she would never play a note that isn´t clearly defined or has a musical value just for the sake of being fast. Paganini played at top speeds that had musical expression...

If it´s just about the fastest tremolo picking you can attache three picks on the end of a cordless drill and hit it...Paul was clever enough to do this...

Just my two cents...

[EricV]

Completely agreed on, that´s what I meant by "control".
I remember us talking about playing "beyond the actual limit" one day, great conversation
Eric

[EricV]

I remember Eric V saying that he has just been "lucky" with injuries.
Yeah, I have been, and for another example, I don´t think Thorsten ever mentioned injuries.
I assume part of it is luck, and the rest is just warming up, and not pushing it too far.
I did have a slight sinew inflammation ( first warning sign ) before, a few times actually, and after giving it a rest, it went away. Last time it happened, I had been practicing and recording one day, and I guess I hadn´t warmed up well enough. Later that day, I had an acoustic session with a singer, and my arm simply fell down... felt kinda numb, with an ever so slight pain. COoled it right away, didn´t play for 2 or 3 days, it went away.
Andy, the drummer of the EVB, is very disciplined, and warms up quite thoroughly, but he did have some more serious problems about 2 or 3 years ago. So I guess it´s a combination of several factors, as mentioned above
Eric

[maglor]

i practised very hard once perhaps two months of segovia scale exersises for classic guitar..i got pain...i found out that was not right way to go. the exersises are fantastic btw..but rest seems to have cured that...some people i think are inclined to injury...but i never came close to it without really pushing the limit

[Invictious]

I shall make my first post here

Definitely using the wrist is superior, doing it from the elbow can definitely cause tennis elbow due to repeat movement of joints, thus wearing out the sinovial sac. it can also cause tendonitis(same for wrist too, if improper exertion).

Using the wrist, will definitely get you much further, doing it from the elbow can make you tire out very quickly, tense up and perhaps damage some of the muscle fibres.

If your technique is improper from the wrist, then you will get Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, probably the most common injury that musicians get(yes, even vocalists ;))

If you relax, use your wrist, then elbow movement is not needed.

RELAX! All your problems will be solved.

[Diabolet]

I always thought Paul gilbert got the idea for the drill from van halen? Remember that song where he puts the drill over the pick up?

Yea control is somthing we should all strive for certainly.

Playing fast should never be seen as pointless, think of it like this, in a circus you have a guy who breaths fire and another who jugles knives, there both completly useless jobs yet no one cares, most people applaud them and love it, yet when a guitar player plays fast and has obviously spent as much time as the juglar on his technique, people smirk and even try there best to offend and belittle them. Everyone here is good on the issue which is great, iv seen other forums where shred is a disgusting word. But i think its a big issue that some people need to think about.

Its almost a case of 'my noise is better then yours' i think. Music like painting is an art, and art could always be seen as a pointless persuit.

I mean would this song be the same if the solo were slower?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wabu6JIolXE&search=nitro%20freight%20train

There is always a need for speed in other forms of music, if you play hard rock then as a single player speed isnt needed, but saying in general that speed is pointless, like alot of players seem to do, is quite inconsiderate of other music IMO. Speed is fully intergrated with Speed metal, neoclassical, Thrash metal and a number of other things including jazz, just check out shawn lane who is possibly the fastest player ever. To actually make a name and be succesful in those areas of music you need to strike fear in to the hearts of your fellow guitarists! Well maybe not in jazz. But you have to have good technique and speed. And maybe some theory if your IQ is high enough.

I dont listen to much of that music but i understand the concepts and there is a valid reason for speed.

Paul gilbert is amazing, you can hear each note when he alternate picks, especially on that live mr big dvd during his solo spot. Also his dynamics are great like EricV was saying. I liked that about intense rock 2 alot. He's picking was alot faster but not as clean back in the Early racer x days though. Not that i could have done better lol.

But i have to say that on Michael angelos Starlicks video his picking is so clean and acurate its hard to believe. Definatly somthing to watch.

But I dont think this is really about alternate picking so much, as i think tremlo and speed picking are different things from alternate, as steve lukather calls it 'double picking'. Its more about intensity then anything, somthing inbetween the melody. Like Kee marcello does, Almost like a sound effect or dynamic like a dip or harmonic dive bomb. Like john petrucci has said, 'i use these techniques to fire off a fast amount of notes during a solo'.

Make sure you realise that the elbow and forearm are different things though. I dont pick from my elbow, i use my forearm with a small amount of my wrist.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoID=722540553&n=2&Mytoken=64CF7AE5-117C-156B-F6D7149452834E6E16124537

I feel it works for me and i can play at an alright speed i think. Fast enough for most of my needs.

For some people picking from the wrist just wont work, so you've got to keep it open.

[Len H]

The funny thing about fast picking, or fast playing for that matter, is that if you are trying to push for more speed it sounds like you are rushing. The notes don't have the separation and clarity that they should. If I find myself getting to this point, I actually try to slow my picking hand down. It is picking with fluidity that will give speed and separation. One analogy is trying to hit a baseball. The batter who is anxious and jumps toward every pitch is the one who either misses, pops the ball up, or grounds out. The batter who is patient, waits on the ball, and executes a smooth swing is the one who hits with authority and consistency. Forgive me for comparing a sport to music, but I see some similarities.

[denis]

Αlso if anyone wants to practice fast picking i think he should do it in front of a mirror.cause that way you get instant feedback of what you are doing.When for example you can play at 160 bpm 16nth notes lower it down to 110 or 120 and try to play them without any tension whatsoever.The mirror will give you the continous feedback and you ll relax and play your exercises effortlessly.thats the key.Dont strive for more speed when you play like you gonna struggle someone.When you reach a point that you tense up in order to play that fast then you are not yet trained to play at that speed and you should lower the metronome.What Len H said was very important:speed up your transition time.That means let the note rings and move to the next one only the exact time you have to hit it.With a snap.That should give anyone good articulation and clear tone and i think that it is the most important thing alongside with tension release for fast picking.

[Diabolet]

yea i think troy stetina talks about that abit in Speed mechanics, and guthrie govan does in his Creative guitar books.

Some guitarists get away with having little or no picking technique, like reb beach, he hardly ever picks but is still a great guitarist.

Im not sure if transition time applys much to tremolo picking, people just tend to slide about with it.

[schematics]

I'm just curious if when you tremolo pick you can pick from the elbow, or where you should pick from.

Tremolo picking, picking with "the elbow", picking with the thighs, the tongue, with my d**k maybe......I read about it from time to time, but I still have absolutely no clue what "tremolo picking" is.

Probably playing the axe with parkinson at the age of 82........