eddie van halen picking technique

[pewing33ny]

first post, been to this site for probably over a year now just never signed up.

i've been playing for about 3.5 years and have been stepping up my playing over the last coupel months. My left hand is pretty good but my picking has always beena problem. I was using my pointer and thumb and recently switched to middle finger/thumb with pointer as a stabilizer of sorts. It is much more comfortable for me but i'm still having lots of problems with speed picking on single strings. I can do the method that i've seen a few guys do and anchor it (i freehand pick) and kind of shake it violently but get that nice fast picking. Problem is it takes me a second to shift hand positions.

i've been watching alot of van halen videos and we play very much alike posture and technique-wise. We hold our guitars at the same height, arm at same angle, and even hold the pick the same way. I'm no EVH but single string runs give me lots of problems. He does it very oddly in that he floats his hand and does his "hummingbird" picking. There is a good amount of movement and it has been haunting me for the half year because I have no idea whatsoever how to do it.

Does anyone do the hummingbird? He does it on alot of videos that are on kazaa. The 5150 from 86, stompin 8h from SNL, and when he does single string picking in eruption from teh 83 us festival. in the 5150 video at 5:00 you can see it really well. I've been trying lots of methods and this is the one part of my playing that is really holding me back.

[Alan(Lost)]

What's "Hummingbird"? I probably know the technique, but just never heard the term.

[pewing33ny]

its really really hard to describe. i've seen alot of people speed pick (i think trem pick is the right term) on a single string while they rest their hand on teh bridge. I can do this but it takes too long to set up.

the hummingbird is when you free hand speed pick, he moves his wrist really fast with a lot of motion but it looks like a hummingbird. i made the term up myself so that's why no one has really heard of it.

last night after i made this post i spent half an hour just doing different things and i think i may be on the right track. it is extremely unorthodox. right now it isn't very accurate but i've only been working on it this morning and it has gotten alot better so i think i may have found how to do it. I'll probably watch more videos and tweeking it so its a little more accurate and efficient. i'll probably put in a few more hours tonight working on it and if it is possible to be accurate i'll post here.

in the meantime, does anyone have this technique down and what to give tips or opinions?

[Alan(Lost)]

I think I understand what you're talking about. The only way I can see a Hummingbird-like shape is by floating the wrist, and bending it slightly forward (so the top of the wrist points in the air slightly). Then, there's a very slight movement in the forearm, like a vibration, which can be done really quickly. If this is what you call "Hummingbird", I use this for really fast strumming (Johnny Greenwood style octave stuff), but I never have managed to tame it into something a bit more percise, even though it's the fastest thing in playing, mine anyway.

Am I way off?

[debaser]

I think you're primarily referring to his tremolo picking technique. As far as I can tell, that's the only time EVH uses that "hummingbird" picking style. I think it's interesting that he has two different methods of picking - anchored and unanchored, I guess. I know there has been some discussion about the pros and cons of each approach to fast picking here, but I still have to wonder what the point of having two totally different techniques, rather than simply focusing on one of them(unless it's injury-related, and then it makes perfect sense). Anyway, to the OP- I wouldn't recommend emulating the VH technique unless it's really working for you, because it is pretty unorthodox and seems to involve a superfluous position shift.

[Bizarro]

Van Halen developed that his picking technique so he could play on any style guitar equally well (Gibson, Fender, etc). I read this in an early interview, probably 1978 or 1979, that's really hard to find nowadays!

I know several people that use a similar motion but it's not very common. Tuck Andress explores this a little bit on his website and talks about various picking techniques. If you have some time I would highly suggest reading it!

I experimented with it myself but it doesn't feel natural to me. If it feels natural to you then stick with it! Everybody is different and no one way is correct for everyone.

[primal65]

I float my hand quite a bit when I play, especially when I solo. I anchor myself with the upper under part of my forearm on the body. I find it very liberating at times to not be tied to the bridge. It allows me to put a more natural wrist motion to my hand and picking motion. A kind of "floaty, at-ease" type feel to it. I kind of have adopted the idea that the more you try to make it look easy and flowing the more easy and flowing(and natural) it will be(if that makes sense).

Most of the time I do anchor on the bridge when I'm playing rhythm though.

One thing I did pick up from EVH was the holding of the pick. I experiment alot with holding the pick with my thumb and middle finger like EVH does quite often. I still use my index/middle finger most of the time, but it's a nice change to try new things and experiment to see if they produce any new ideas or techniques.

I've been playing for quite a long time and my usual techiques are quite solid so I see no harm in experimenting with new techniques to see what they yield. Exploration leads to new ideas.

[Alan(Lost)]

Everyone always says that the best way to pick is by using wrist movement only. But for really fast picking (not necessarily tremolo picking) - 32nds at 120BPM sort of speed - is it possible to pick with just wrist movement. I find it near impossible, and find it easy to just do a small forearm movement, while staying relaxed. Ideas?

[primal65]

Anything is possible. I would say just try it out for awile and see if you like it. Generally, there is no wrong way to do anything. Do it the way if feels and sounds best to you.

If I were to suddenly find out tomorrow that some style or technique I liked and had been doing on the guitar was not the "right way" I would not change. I would find out the "right way", try it out, and if I liked it I would use it. If I didn't like it I would just continue doing it the way I had been doing it. Experimentation is key in music, in my opinion. For me, I use the "right way" as a stepping stone to finding "my way". I think it would do you well to try the same.

Good luck. I hope you find your way soon.

[Bizarro]

Who picks 32nd notes at 120bpm? That's ridiculously fast.

I wonder if Thorsten could pick that fast? I don't know anybody that can do it.

[debaser]

I don't even know if Petrucci picks that fast. Doesn't he struggle trying to play 16th's at 208 in Rock Discipline?

[Alan(Lost)]

Hmm, how about 6ths then (4 groups of 6 semi-quavers in a bar, whatever the US term is). I normally practice this sort of Paul Gilbert stuff with 6 notes per beat/3 notes per string etc.

There is such thing as "right" and "wrong" as in there are known easiest and best ways to doing things. Obviously there are always going to be people who find exceptions to this, but generally, there are "best" ways to sweep, economypick, tremolo pick etc. (ie. there is a high percentage of people who do this successfully). There are always guidelines to playing, even if people do make successful exceptions to this.

So as I was saying, does anyone picking that trademark Paul Gilbert exercise (below) thing at around 115BPM+ with ONLY wrist movement?

E|-------------12----------|
B|12-13-15------15-13-|

[debaser]

In sextuplets, you mean? Yes, definitely. I've gotten it much faster since using my wrist exclusively, and building the movement up slowly.

[Thorsten]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bizarro
Who picks 32nd notes at 120bpm? That's ridiculously fast.

I wonder if Thorsten could pick that fast? I don't know anybody that can do it. [/QUOTE

Only if I use my drill...] ;)

Seriously, I think with straight AP it´s almost impossible, using sweeps on arpeggio patterns it ´s quite easy.

Let´s say, there´s licks you can play at that tempo and there´s licks you can´t.

TK

[Bizarro]

So as I was saying, does anyone picking that trademark Paul Gilbert exercise (below) thing at around 115BPM+ with ONLY wrist movement?

It isn't too hard to play it at 115bpm with some concentrated practice and hard work! Lots of hard work sometimes! I use only wrist movement...

I generally practice it like Paul Gilbert does in the videos, which is in 16th notes. I think you're playing 8th note triplets. The difference is that 16th notes will be 16 notes (4x4=16) while 8th note triplets will be 12 notes (4x3=12). (per measure)

Most "fast" guitar players can play it around 160-180 bpm before losing control. Insane guitar players (like Thorsten :)) can go quite a bit faster. :eek:

There was a clip awhile back where I gave an example of this.... Edit: found it!
http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1128

[Alan(Lost)]

In that little clip you posted, what tempo was that, and what time sig.?

[Bizarro]

I wasn't playing to a metronome so I'm not sure of the tempo, and therefore a time signature doesn't really apply either! :)

It's probably around 170-190bpm if you counted it as 16th notes. It's right at the speed limit of my picking ability! I doubt I could ever play that lick any quicker. Thorsten and a few other folks around here can play it quite a bit faster! :eek:

[Alan(Lost)]

I can play it a bit faster, but using forearm movement, which is my whole problem in the first place. I've began practicing my "intensive" wrist-only picking practice, and also floating hand at the same time.

Everyone seems to find wrist movement to be the better option, and Paul Gilbert himself; I'm not going to argue with his technique.

Doing sextuplits, I can play wrist movement only up until around 110Bpm. I can go up to maybe 125Bpm with a combination of wrist and forearm. After that, the wrist movement just won't happen, like the muscle isn't there to move at that speed, and I can doing forearm up to 135Bpm (after ages warming up!) (which is why I've started strengthening my picking wrist: I have been doing left for ages after I broke it).

Does anyone else have that problem; wrist movement is possible up to a point, at which the forearm begins to take over (and feel quite comfortable I might add!)?

[Bizarro]

Vinnie Moore is a "move the whole forearm" guy. He's really fast too!

I don't think you have to limit yourself to just wrist or just forearm. Do whatever works for a given situation.

I do a lot of hybrid/chicken picking for some string skipping stuff. It would be great if I could just use a pick to get every note, but it sounds good with the way I'm doing it so what the heck! :) I'm not going to worry about it too much.

:D

[Alan(Lost)]

But can you tremolo pick, or pick really fast with just wrist movement (maybe 16th at 200Bpm - some would call it tremolo picking, but if it's at a musically measurable tempo, it's not). And if so, was it not just easier at first to do forearm for tremolo?

[debaser]

You seem really fixated on this issue, but I'm not sure what the problem is. It sounds like you are able to play pretty fast; probably faster than most people. Why change your technique if it's already working for you? I mean, objectively speaking, it's hard to argue that picking from the wrist is a more practical movement which involves less movement, and commits less muscles when compared to forearm picking. But, there aren't too many guitar players faster or cleaner than Vinnie Moore, so obviously it's not that cut and dried. Do whatever is working for you.

[Alan(Lost)]

Heh, sorry.

Nah, I'm just trying to gather different opinions on the picking movement, and also see what is possible. I ask if very fast tremolo picking is possible with wrist movement only because I'm not totally comfortable with my forearm movement; pretty heavy movement, can get tense. If someone says "I can do 16ths at 200Bpm with wrist only movement", I'd take that on board and work at it to reach that.

[debaser]

Well, I have to admit that I can't play 16th notes at 200 bpm right now. I have every intention of being able to do so in the next few months, but 168-172 is probably my cap for the moment. But if you're wondering it's possible to play that fast with a relaxed wrist movement, you should check out Yngwie's picking technique. It's like he barely moves his hand.

[Bizarro]

But can you tremolo pick, or pick really fast with just wrist movement (maybe 16th at 200Bpm - some would call it tremolo picking, but if it's at a musically measurable tempo, it's not). And if so, was it not just easier at first to do forearm for tremolo?

I disagree with your definition on tremolo picking... ;) "musically measurable tempo" and tremolo picking don't have any interdependencies. I'm not sure the term "musically measurable tempo" is even something that anyone could agree upon.

Tremolo picking should still be done "in time". It's not just a "pick as fast as I can" technique. Listen to Eruption. The signature tremolo picked part is very much in time and deliberate.

I don't mean to be obtuse, but I think it's an important distinction. :)

I don't do any picking just with my forearm. Everything is wrist for me. 16th notes at 200 bpm is certainly attainable. When I was a "technical guitarist" back in the 80's and early 90's I could alternate pick a single note very quickly, probably around 240-250, which was as high as my drum machine went. It was more of an exercise and not a musical thing at all. It wasn't something I could sustain for more than a minute or two.:D

It does seem like you're overly concerned with what other folks can do. Everyone is different, and what works for me might not work for you. Some people aren't very quick, some are blazing. And there is ALWAYS someone faster than you at something. That's just life. ;)

Listen to Thorsten's guitar playing. If you have any doubts about someone playing a certain technique at XXX bpm, listen to him and you'll realize he can probably do it 50% faster than you thought possible. He is very gifted and very dedicated. I'm certain that there are many things which I will never be able to play as quickly as he does. I'm ok with that! :p But more importantly than speed is the point that his music is very good and I enjoy listening to it, regardless of how fast he plays.

[Alan(Lost)]

Ok.

1) Where do you draw the line between tremolo picking and everything else? If tremolo picking is playing a specific amount of notes to a tempo, why does it have a name? If 16ths are played at 200BPM, why would it be called tremolo picking?

2) What way did you practice to be able to play very fast with wrist movement? Just some tips and pointers would really help me.

See, my whole thing is; take a random person who doesn't play guitar. This person would be able to do the forearm movement really fast, even though they can't apply it as a musical technique on the guitar. But this person wouldn't be able to do the fast wrist movement.

So basicallllllyyy........just point towards any exercises you know to build wrist movement speed. I can already do 16ths at around 160 BPM (and sixtuplets at around 110BPM). The speed picking I'm talking about, and aiming for with wrist movement (which I can do with forearm movement) is the Yngwie style broken scales sliding up and down the fretboard like:

B|12-11-9-7-11-9-7-5-9-7-...etc|

He does this sort of thing all the time with 16ths at around 200BPM as you know.

[debaser]

I think the point that you might be missing here, is that any exercise which builds technique for any style of picking will also build technique for any other style of picking. If it's an alternate picking exercise, it doesn't discriminate between individual techniques. That's a choice on your part. There is no particular exercise which will develop picking from your wrist if you continue to play it from your forearm. By contrast, any exercise will help you develop your wrist picking if you make sure to pick excusively from there. It's difficult to refine your technique, but it's usually worth it.

[debaser]

Btw, tremolo picking refers to playing the same note repeatedly, not just playing rapidly at a particular tempo. It's the sustained picking of the same note quickly and in time which makes it tremolo.

[Bizarro]

See, my whole thing is; take a random person who doesn't play guitar. This person would be able to do the forearm movement really fast, even though they can't apply it as a musical technique on the guitar. But this person wouldn't be able to do the fast wrist movement.

This is an incorrect assumption. I taught guitar for years and nearly everybody can do the wrist motion, including beginners.


FWIW, Tremolo definition:
a. A tremulous effect produced by rapid repetition of a single tone.
b. A similar effect produced by rapid alternation of two tones.

The term applies to much more than just guitar.

Some people can't play as fast as Yngwie. Take Joe Satriani for example. From everything I've heard, he can't pick as fast as Yngwie, but it doesn't really limit him as far as I've been able to tell :)

I'm not aware of any secret or super-special speed building techniques besides lots of dedicated and well thought out practice. :)
About the only thing I would suggest is playing "fast songs" all the time. When I was a beginner I played YRO, Black Star, Eruption, Scarified, Attitude Song, and every other shred thing I could find. I worked on these things every day for years. By the time I'd been playing for 3-4 years I was very quick. I don't play that style of music anymore (and haven't for quite some time) so I'm not as quick. It doesn't mean I'm not as good, since speed isn't a requirement for playing well.:D

[Alan(Lost)]

Ok, maybe I havn't been very clear with what I'm saying.

I'm not a beginner by any means. I can play all the old favourites like "Baroque and Roll"..."Technical Difficulties"..."Let The Computer Decide" (well, I give it a bash!)...etc. and whatever. I'm making myself sound a beginner because I'm trying to learn of a technique.

I do pick from the wrist...for everything below a certain speed. This certain speed is fast, probably 16ths at 160bpm or so. This means (with my band anyway) 95% of my playing is with wrist movement, and now floating since I've learned that over the last few days. But when it comes to the top speed type stuff, like Yngwie broken scale stuff on a single string (maybe 16ths at 200bpm), I slip into forearm movement as the wrist just won't move that quickly, and I'll argue the point with anyone who says a beginner who has played very little before can pick wrist movement that fast straight away without practicing it.

Bizarro - You're telling me your beginners can pick 200bpm 16ths with wrist movement only? I seriously doubt it. I remember some songs I'd play a few years ago when I was starting out which would involve rapid picking/strumming. I used forearm movement because that's all that would move that fast!

Maybe I'm being confusing because I'm setting the bar of what I consider fast playing quite high. It's just an opinion I suppose of what is fast. What I'm aiming to do is be able to play everything with wrist movement. It's just always been the way with me that I can do wrist movement up to a certain point (a point at which maybe most would call very fast) but then it locks into forearm movement.

I'll probably say no more on this topic; it's not really going anywhere!

[debaser]

I'll probably say no more on this topic; it's not really going anywhere! [/B][/QUOTE]


Finally - something we can agree about.

[Bizarro]

Alan, re-read my post. That's not what I said at all. I didn't make any mention of playing in a musical settting or in terms of BPM. I quoted your post of a person being able to move their arm quickly from the forearm.

I too think this is a "going nowhere in a big hurry" topic. ;)

Next! :D

[Asse]

Originally posted by Bizarro
Some people can't play as fast as Yngwie. Take Joe Satriani for example. From everything I've heard, he can't pick as fast as Yngwie, but it doesn't really limit him as far as I've been able to tell :)

Is he actually able to pick fast at all? I haven't heard any fast passages where he picks every note. If Satch's playing fast, I guess he'll always use legato. Am I wrong?

[Bizarro]

It depends on your point of view. To 99% of the world he picks VERY fast. He doesn't do much mega-wankering like Paul Gilbert, but he does pick some really difficult stuff very quickly.:D

Satch is extremely technical at times but sometimes we overlook that when comparing him to some other great guitarists.

[debaser]

I think of Satriani as someone who focuses more on expressive techniques than one particular technical skill(not sure if I'm phrasing that well). I was watching the new G3 dvd last night and was struck by how many different effects he really has at his disposal. Some great legato stuff, some picking, tapping and great vibrato and bends. He's not awesome at any of them(except vibrato and bending), but very competent at all of them - probably more so than anyone who had focused on one technique exclusively.

[fred]

Have a question: When you say you pick with the wrist do you mean you only move the wrist are primarily the wrist?

When I pick at slow tempo I usually use the wrist with some finger movement too. But at higher speeds, at around 140 bpm 16th notes, and above, I use the whole forearm. It just happened naturally when I started coming up to that speed.

So far so good. The problem is that when I pick from the elbow both the wrist and the fingers move too. They kind of compensate the lack of accuracy I have in the elbow picking. I think (not sure though) that because I have 3 different movements when I pick, I need very long warmups before I can play anything accurate. I often need 45 minutes while my friends need like 10.

If anyone have suggestions on how I can improve my picking they are appreciated ;)

[debaser]

Of course, none of us have seen you play, so it may be a little tough to say for sure. I would say though, that your technique should really be the same, regardless of what speed your playing at. You should really be practicing your fast technique at slow speeds so that the motions are very refined when you speed it up. Also, a point about forearm picking that hasn't come up yet, but should, is that it can easily lead to a RSI because of the degree of muscle tension which is often involved.

[tom_hogan]

Originally posted by Bizarro
I wasn't playing to a metronome so I'm not sure of the tempo, and therefore a time signature doesn't really apply either! :)

It's probably around 170-190bpm if you counted it as 16th notes. It's right at the speed limit of my picking ability! I doubt I could ever play that lick any quicker. Thorsten and a few other folks around here can play it quite a bit faster! :eek:

christ

i play eugines trickbag at 160 and i thought that was fast

i used to play faster but my tone is comprimised and it was sloppier than i would like

so im building it up again :)

faster isnt better though just different

[Alan(Lost)]

Fred; yes I mean only wrist movement while picking on one string; for string skipping I'd use a forearm movement to make the reach, but primarily wrist for the actual picking motion. For adjacent strings I still only use wrist (as I've said before, for speeds below 16th at 160BPM or so - which is the bulk part of all my playing!).

Fred, the problem I have, and probaly you too, is that the muscles in the wrist just don't know how to move that quickly; they never have moved in that way before. I've been going into great detail over the last few days and have made extensive progress. Forget about your guitar. Sit down at a table, hold your forearm down to table so that it can't move, and move your wrist on the one axis parallel to the flat side of your forearm (ie. the way one normally moves it when playing). Really push it far, stretching it out, and also do it as fast as you can, making sure that it's only the wrist that's moving. Gradually ease your forearm off the table and try to get your arm used to wrist-only movement with your whole arm floating.

As I said, wrist movement is my main technique. It's just that I'm focusing on the top end speed stuff for wrist movement.

[fred]

Thanks for the help guys. I have started working on getting my wrist-picking better and try to eliminate the other movements.

Alan, thats a great exercise. I tried it out with a metronome and noticed my wrist moved faster than I ever thought it could! Hopefully, in time, I will be able to get rid of that forearm picking. :)