Diatonic discontinuity...

[Bongo Boy]

This question comes from my Autumn Leaves project. The chord progression for this tune has been discussed elsewhere, and it's pretty easy to follow, except for a couple of nuances.

First, the tune's in G, yet after the F#m7b5, instead of the Bm7 I'd expect, we get a B7. This tells me we want a D# for some reason, instead of the D--but I don't know why or if that's the issue.

Second, at the end of this wonderful song, three things happen: a) I get a puzzling Eb7 right after an Em7, b) there's a Dm7 used instead of the D7 I would have expected, and c) the Dm7 is followed by a Dbm7.

What do I need to understand in order for these little quirks to make sense? I expect I'll be seeing this sort of thing again.

[The Bash]

The B7 Comes from the E Harmonic Minor Scale
the other are tri-tone subs for A7 the V of Dm7 and G7 the V of C Major. Least that's my view. I don't claim ta be a Jazz expert.

[The Bash]

My Question would be the CM7 could you/would you/ or should you view it as a tritone sub for the F#m7b5. That to me would keep that F#m7b5 B7 Em progression that occurs throughout the song intact.
I know I'm warped :)
But curious :)

[The Bash]

I guess u could say the B7 in the first case (before the first ending)comes from Melodic Minor since there's a C# in the Melody. The B7b9 though is Harmonic (b9 being C thus no C#)

[Guni]

Hi Bongo,

very good questions. Let's dig a bit deeper with analyzing Autumn Leaves.

1) Overall the tune is in G as you mention above. Standards in general move from one key center on to another one.

If you look at the first 8 bars we can identify two I chords. The Gmaj7 (bar 3) and the Em in bar 7. Although, Em is the VI in the key of G it here sounds as a Im, as it is proceeded by its II - V7.

Another way of looking at the first 8 bars:

we have a cycle of 4th in G:
let's just look at the bass line:

A D G C F# B E

now let's define our key centers:

A D Gmaj7 C F# B Em

Now I fill up the other chords in a way so it reflects the key centers

-------- key of G -------|--- key of Em --
Am7 D7 Gmaj7 Cmaj7 F#m7b5 B7 Em
IIm7 V7 Imaj7 IVmaj7 IIm7b5 V7 Im

The F#m7b5 functions as a pivot chord, meaning it is the VII in G but also the II in Em.


2) let's just view Em7 Eb7 Dm7 Db7 Cmaj7 on it's own.

Our target in this progression is Cmaj7.
It is proceeded by two IIm7 - subV7 chords.

Let's look closer:

IIm7 - V7 - Imaj7 in C = Dm7 G7 Cmaj7

A common technique is to use a tritone substitution for the V7 chord which in our example is Db7. So instead of the bass going down a fifth and up a fourth it moves down by half steps.

IIm7 - subV7 - Imaj7 in C = Dm7 Db7 Cmaj7

Still with me?

Now, we can expand this to Em7 A7 Dm7 G7 Cmaj7 with using subVs for the dominant chords, which gives us Em7 Eb7 Dm7 Db7 Cmaj7.

Hope that makes sense.

Guni

[Guni]

Originally posted by The Bash
My Question would be the CM7 could you/would you/ or should you view it as a tritone sub for the F#m7b5. That to me would keep that F#m7b5 B7 Em progression that occurs throughout the song intact.Interesting question. To me the main reason for the Cmaj7 chord there is the long descending bassline in half steps (E Eb D Db C B) which does give the ending this strong feel of 'going somewhere'.

I wouldn't call it a tritone sub, rather a reharmonisation, as the bassline requires a chord with a C in the bass. In the melody we have the note A, so it's actually a C6 chord, which is identical to Am7, which also is quite closely related to the F#m7b5.

So, from a listening standpoint it certainly does have the IIm7b5 touch / sound, just not that strong.

Guni

[szulc]

Em7 Eb7 Dm7 Db7 Cmaj7
(Em7 A7 Dm7 G7 Cmaj7 )

I look at this as a ii V in D ( down a fourth from G)
followed by a ii V I in C. ( up a fourth from G)


Isn't this CM7(6) just a sub for Am6
which is a sub for F#m7b5?

F#m7b5 = F#ACE
Am6 = ACEF#
Am7 = ACEG
CM6 = CEGA
CM7=CEGB

[The Bash]

Ahhh, Good Answer. The way I kinna fill in the blanks is by asking, what may appear to be, strange questions :) That Makes Perfect Sense, or least I follow you.

Ok as and observation if you take Db7 to be sub to G7
you get Dm7-G7-CM7 (ii7-V7-IM7 in C) so could you look at that as a loose allusion to C Major. I guess I'm thinking solo wise as treating that as a C Major tonal aerea. I know You Could but (course one could do anything) but how would that be completly conviental.

Not being a jazz player I'd take the Coltrane pattern approach over the tri-tone subsection and treat the CM7 as I (by either using arps or running C Major Scale).

Second silly question is why in the first part of the tune is the F#m7b5 the pivot chord and not the CM7 to me the CM7 kinna links to strong ii-v-I (i) progressions. That's how I'd view it so there's a reason for the F#m7b5 being the pivot chord I'm missing. Unless your viewing the B7 as the first sure fire indication we can't possibly be in G Major anymore.

[szulc]

B7 is the fisrt chord that cannot be in G or E natural minor.
The D# indicates E harmonic before that everything is diatonic to G or E natural Minor.

[Guni]

Originally posted by szulc
Isn't this CM7(6) just a sub for Am6
which is a sub for F#m7b5?

F#m7b5 = F#ACE
Am6 = ACEF#
Am7 = ACEG
CM6 = CEGA
CM7=CEGB [/B]

Yeah it is.

The f# comes in through the overall key, so when playing Lydian the Cmaj7 will even stronger sound like the II in Em.

Guni

[Guni]

Originally posted by The Bash

Ok as and observation if you take Db7 to be sub to G7
you get Dm7-G7-CM7 (ii7-V7-IM7 in C) so could you look at that as a loose allusion to C Major. I guess I'm thinking solo wise as treating that as a C Major tonal aerea. I know You Could but (course one could do anything) but how would that be completly conviental.Well, on paper you can look at it like this but how does it really sound? I mean play from the top and stop at the Cmaj7 - does it sound resolved - is this really a I. I don't think so. There's a strong tendency to move forward - to continue. So, although it's a II V I it doesn't have the I character ...

Second silly question is why in the first part of the tune is the F#m7b5 the pivot chord and not the CM7 to me the CM7 kinna links to strong ii-v-I (i) progressions. Again, I think the answer is in listening to it. First there's a strong II V I in G so the C is set in relation to this key. Then comes the F#m7b5. Ok my ears still tell me we are in G. But f#m7b5 is very unstable. It sounds like 'oops, what's coming up next - yeah i know we are in G but will we stick to it'. The B7 tells me 'no - we are going someplace else', which turns out to be Em as our new I.

And, yes, the melody is taken from melodic minor for the first B7.

Guni

[Bongo Boy]

Okay...looks like I asked "How do I make a thermonuclear device?" without first knowing basic physics. I was lost at the first mention of "key center"--I don't know what that means.

1st, what general topic area does this thread fall into? Is this discussion one of 'harmonization' (great entry for that glossary!)?

2nd, can you recommend a resource or two that I can study? I'll try to outline what I think I know. First, I think I understand most of the material in Guni's Chord Scales series. He may make a comment or two that I don't get, but I've memorized the structures for all the modes and the chord types they imply, tensions, avoids, etc. Basic cycle of keys is no problem, and I understand the 'what' of chord inversions, probably not the 'why'.

I understand Guni's comment above regarding the Em and that it follows a II - V7 progression (with Em as the Im). What I don't get is why I would even think to look for that, since I was so pleased to recognize the cycle 4 progression thanks to James. In fact, if I saw ANY minor chord I wouldn't think to look at it as an I. In other words--I was getting a lot of comfort knowing I was in a major key--it provides so much information. I just wouldn't ever begin analysis by asking "What's G's relative minor?".

I'd like to learn a process (however informal, intuitive, sloppy or whatever) where it's just 'natural' for me to peek at those things. Will one of those "Modern Harmonization" books help, or should I find a college text or two on some other topic?

BRIEFLY, I don't understand:

1. Chord substitutions--why they are used
2. The concept of 'key center'
3. How ideas like 'tonal center' and 'resolution' can coexist with going outside the key you're in--this REALLY doesn't make sense.
4. Hardly anything in this thread.

So I'm thinking I need to do a lot of work with a good book or two, then if I don't see how actual music relates to the basics, you guys can help out. One title I've found that looks like it MIGHT help is Bret Wilmott's Complete Book of Harmony, Theory & Voicing for Guitar--I dunno.

I was waiting for the bus to stop and pick me up at the curb, but instead a 757 flew by--about 50 ft over my head. All you guys were in it, waving out the windows :D

[szulc]

To my ears this whole tune is in E Minor not G Major, with brief excursions to the two closest related Minor keys , A Minor ( up a 4th) and B Minor (Down a 4th). But this may be my minor centric view of things.
1. Chord substitutions--why they are used
I would not consider it a chord substitution to play Am6 in place of F#m7b5. Fr me this would be a matter of convienience in that I am more familiar with the forms of m6 chords (how they lay on the fretboard).
F#m7b5 = F#ACE
Am6 = ACEF#

The following are considered substitution:

Em7 Eb7 Dm7 Db7 Cmaj7
(Em7 A7 Dm7 G7 Cmaj7 )

These are tritone substitutions, very common in jazz.
Look at it like this:
A7 = AC#EG
Eb7= EbGBbDb(C#)

The two ACTIVE notes 3rd (C#,Db) and 7th G, occur in both chords. In jazz you usually leave out one or more chord tones, usually the root or fifth since the bass player will cover these.
These are INACTIVE tones anyway. From a functional point of view the Eb7 and the A7 are identical.
By ACVTIVE I mean these are the guide tones that are going to be involved in the tension and resolution throughout any piece.
2. The concept of 'key center'
A song generally is considered to be in one particular key, however temporary visitation to other keys (especially closlely related ones) is typical. Key center is just a way of organizing and anylzing the chord progression as it relates to various keys (either major or minor). If you are in C and you come up on an E7 chord you now have a different Key Center (in this case A minor) since E7 has G# which is not a member of the set of natural notes.
You might have an A7 chord in your C tune to me this would indicate (D melodic) depending on the surrounding chords.
3. How ideas like 'tonal center' and 'resolution' can coexist with going outside the key you're in--this REALLY doesn't make sense.
THe previous statement should help clarify this.

[Guni]

Originally posted by Bongo Boy
One title I've found that looks like it MIGHT help is Bret Wilmott's Complete Book of Harmony, Theory & Voicing for Guitar--I dunno.Hi Bongo,

A quick warning! Bret's Book is really advanced. Without having music theory in your bag it might be more confusing than helpful.

If you are looking for a general harmony book I really recommend having a look at The New Harmony Book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/3927190683/guitar4u/104-5638827-1819904) by Frank Haunschild. There's also a Part 2 available, which digs even deeper into jazz harmony. I have to write a review about these books at some point.

Guni

[Guni]

Originally posted by szulc
I would not consider it a chord substitution to play Am6 in place of F#m7b5. Fr me this would be a matter of convienience in that I am more familiar with the forms of m6 chords (how they lay on the fretboard).
F#m7b5 = F#ACE
Am6 = ACEF# It's not a sub as Am6 equals F#m7b5. Ok, I'm picky here but I don't know how we got to the Am6 in the first place. The note f# is nowhere in this bar.

Ok, you could think of it like this but again the most important note in this bar is C in the bass.

What you use for your improvisation is a different story and thinking Am6 certainly is a cool option.

Guni

[szulc]

My point here is F#m7b5 and Am6 are just inversion of one another. I don't play or think anything in terms of m7b5, I always use the m6 from the 3rd. Similarly if I were to have FM7 (FACE) I would think and play Dm9 (no root) (D)FACE. If it was FM6 (FACD) I would think and play Dm7. I try to use minor context for everything, I always have. This works for me.

The other thing is in 'Autumn Leaves' I don't hear major tonality
I hear only E minor, A minor and B minor. To me since the E minor scale is identical to G major ( except who is pretending to be the root) I don't have a problem 'borrowing' from G major to describe the ii V changes ( or in this case from C major or D major). Still this whole tune is minor the whole essence of the sound is sad and I think the tune should be described as being in E minor.

I chords and vi chords are so similar in sound to me they are interchangable.

[Bongo Boy]

Originally posted by szulc
The other thing is in 'Autumn Leaves' I don't hear major tonality
I hear only E minor, A minor and B minor. To me since the E minor scale is identical to G major ( except who is pretending to be the root)

When I first read this I just scratched my head...really didn't get your point at all. While I knew a few facts, such as 'Aeolian mode looks like this' and 'natural minor is related to degree VI', I wasn't able to put any of it together.

Then yesterday in my review I ran across a short article on relative minor construction--C natural minor was the example. The clincher of course was showing the scale on a staff having an Eb major key sig. Whoa! Never thought of THAT before.

So here's the goofball question--when I look at this lead sheet and the key sig is G maj, how do I know to say "it's in G" rather than "it's in E minor". Is it a matter of opinion, context, or what? Is this a question of "key centers" again?

[The Bash]

Or all the above :)
basically it depends on what note's in charge or what you hear to be the key. Some tunes (pop tunes a lot) will have a minor verse then major chorus (least that's they mood they hit as).
This tune, though there's a ii-V-I in G Major and you could say the first lines in major till the CM7, sounds like Em to me. I'm not a jazz player so a Lump sum of Minor makes more insant sense to me. If I were writing it out Number wise I'd call it ii-V-I in G for the first part but to me the whole songs in E minor. Either personal preference or limited perpective, I guess.

Same with modes you may see a F# in the key sign
so it's G Major or E Minor right?
Well, what it the chords are Am7-D7 vamp.
Well, Am7 would sound in charge so if you say Am is your key you not all wrong, but your not allright either it's actually A Dorian.
Same case for say a melody with a F# key sign if the tune revolves or sounds resolved by the A it's A Dorian. Same with any of G Majors other modes.

So I'd put hearing or how one hears it as the number one thing.
How you hear it or look at it may be personal
One could say it sounds great when ya play E minor licks over this Am7-D7 vamp. If they wanna think E Minor that's there choice, maybe it's not correct but hey are they playing music or taking a test.
Having said that, I do think knowing what your actually doing is far more helpful in the long run, and being abel to express what your doing correctly assist in one abilty to express ther thoughts to others.

[The Bash]

Just for a real life example of how I'd actually view something
(not necessary Test Time Correct)

I have a tune that I look at as being in
E Mixolydian for the verse there's only E-A-E chords so u couls say E Major but I hear it Sappy Happy and this sounds more springtime cheerful so that's my personal view.
The Pre Chrous I'd call minor (F#m-B-G#m7-A)X2 even though there's no Em the section to me sounds minor
The Chrous E Mixolydian (E-D-A)
The little solo melody C#minor

I could actually of cared less when I wrote it
I could actually careless what to call it
What I do care about is knowing how or why what I did worked
when I do this and that, hey sounds good
Ok so now we need sum means to express that thought either by having the sound in your head or the means to express it on paper. Again, you can't beat hearing it. No matter what you know on paper it means very little if you can't hear it.