Forget scales and modes...

[curiousgeorge]

Don't mean to sound like an arrogant bastard, but why is everybody so concerned with learning scales and modes? Think about it. In the time it takes to learn all of these scales and modes, you are missing hours and hours of actually playing and jamming, discovering what sounds good to YOU, and learning how to improvise. I never used to know that the scales I were playing over the neck were Lydian, Pentatonic, or Phrygian. They just happened to be the sounds I gravitated towards and it turned out those were the names of the scales/modes. I think you should learn intervals though. They are much more important in my opinion.eg.) Memorize what it sounds like to go from the 4th fret on the b string to the seventh fret on the b string, and in reverse. Do the mirror image of what you play and see if you like it better forwards or backwards. Form opinions of these intervals and only incorporate those you like into your playing. I am not trying to tell you what you should do because learning the guitar and music is very subjective. Just my thoughts. What's your opinion?
The Beav.

[UltimaRage]

I used to think what you thought, but seriously. If scales and modes were unnessesary, then why do so many use them? They are mainly used for more patterns for you to work with, and to develop your muscle memory, and in the end, you'd regret not learning them. You don't have to learn all of them.

[Bongo Boy]

You sound arrogant at all, but is 'everybody' really all that concerned about scales & modes? Folks want to know what they are and where they are on the guitar--they're kind of the basis of most music.

We all know there are many ways folks learn to play guitar, and I think we've all had about a million discussions about pros and cons of music theory, reading music and so on.

The basics of music can be applied generally--that is, outside the tiny little world of the guitar. Learning to play guitar by what sounds good and the physical relationships on the fretboard has got to be a good thing. Knowing what scales and modes are and how they work is also a good thing--even if you don't worry about them in the context of guitar.

Knowing how to play basic scales on your instrument of choice would seem to be a huge advantage to speeding up creativity though, compared to trial & error. If the guy calls out "Autumn Leaves in Bb", it would be useful to know right away what that means on the fretboard.

I'm using improvisation as a key technique to learning scales though, more than the other way around. So, step one is to simply learn a given scale all over the fretboard. Then step two is to use improvising as a meaningful way of learning to transition between positions in a given scale--and to avoid box playing. At least that's my approach.

I agree that The Objective is to play and enjoy music, not play scales. If your objective includes playing professionally with others, I think it's often got to be a minimum requirement to know your scales inside and out--I don't know. I do know you won't get into a lot of music schools if you don't know them--if that's of any interest.

Let's not assume that interest in scales & modes means preoccupation with them, or that folks want to spend all their time practicing them. It's just an important approach to understand music and musicmaking. I think.

My last assertion may be total crap--but I think if you're playing in the context of a tonal center, a tonic is implied, which to me means a scale is implied. This may not be an accurate or valid thread of logic, but I think it's close. Now, YOU may not be using a common scale or one that even has a name, but if there are elements of tension and resolution, then I believe it's true that you are using one or more scales, even if you are also using a lot of outside stuff.

If this is the case, then it's a great communication tool to be able to give these elements names. Naming and classification is huge in helping us speak to one another.

[DanF]

I have a few ideas.

Maybe some (many) of the people on this forum learn better by intellectualizing things (it's a learning style that is more effective for them).

Perhaps with a question, what would you play over a ii-V-I in Cmin? Then what if the key modulated to D? My point here is not necessarily that it's important to know the names of the scales but there are a lot of different ways to combine intervals and you coud either spend years re-inventing the wheel or you could learn the basic vocabulary that everyone uses and go from there.

Finally it comes down to your goals, what I said above has no meaning if you want to write your own music and play stuff yourself. But if you want to play in a band (or more so as a session player) you need to be educated enough to hold your own.

-Dan

[Metalliska]

It's alright to play by ear and improvise around your own personal sound, but you are more limited. Using scales can give you a frame work to follow, give you a rough idea of where to take something. All scales have different sounds, different feels, some darker, some warmer, others more poppy. When you're writing a lick or a riff for a song and you're looking for a particular sound it might take you hours of noodling to peice together the right intervals, if however you have a scale that you know has a particular sound, you have a platform to work from. Your ears are the final word when it comes to writing any piece of music, but theory can give a direction or open up certain door that might have taken you forever to stumble on just by noodling.

[phantom]

it depends in how good you want to be as a guitarplayer or overall musician.

you definately don't need to know that stuff to become a rock/popstar or to write hits or look cool on stage.

but if you want to be the best guitarplayer that you can be, then it is all about control. it is about having control over everything that is taking effect on what comes out of your guitar/amplifier.
what you play and how you play it should not be a matter of coincidence but a matter of controlled actions.
to know what you are playing helps substantially to gain control.
it also helps to play with conviction.
if you are listening to a guitarist you can hear if he is playing with or without conviction and you probably ask yourself why he plays that if he is not sure of it... i love to listen to players were every note is a statement.

to really master your instrument you need to know your enemies ;)

sven

[RandyEllefson]

I also find the modes obession a bit silly:rolleyes: , and I don't equate knowing a bunch of modes with being a great player. There's certainly something to be said for keeping your creative options open, but some people seem a little too concerned with them. Still, it's better to leave the obsessed that way if that's what they want:cool: . I only worry that people sacrifice other things in pursuit of modes as if they're the holy grail of guitar playing or something.

If you can't sound great with major/minor, you won't sound great because of a mode either. Trust me.

Rand

[Metalliska]

Yeah, I never really understood the modes effect either. I always saw them as sort of another way of looking at the major and minor scales. If you play E through to E in the key of G it's an E natural minor to me, not a mode. Every mode of a key to me is just another pattern of the same notes, giving them fancy names like Dorian and Ionian doesn't change the fact they're the same major scale, just played from different degrees.

[Stranger]

I havent read all the opinions here ( time limitations :( ) but would like to mention that what you're talking about is DISCOVERING things.. now think if it would be easier to discover America by boat without map and compass being a European(like Columbus) or just take the first class seat on boeing747 and get there in 7 hours?! :)

It's ok to discover undiscovered, but why bother when someone already invented that and shown the best way to learn it :)

That's why people go to school, college, university etc :D

[debaser]

I also find the modes obession a bit silly:rolleyes: , and I don't equate knowing a bunch of modes with being a great player. There's certainly something to be said for keeping your creative options open, but some people seem a little too concerned with them. Still, it's better to leave the obsessed that way if that's what they want:cool: . I only worry that people sacrifice other things in pursuit of modes as if they're the holy grail of guitar playing or something.

If you can't sound great with major/minor, you won't sound great because of a mode either. Trust me.

Rand

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting what you are saying here. But with all due respect, you sound a little overly dismissive. I certainly wouldn't say that modes are the key to anything in particular, but they are useful tools, just like any scale. For one example, if all you know is major and minor, good luck trying to improvise over a dom7 vamp. On the other hand, a mixolydian mode, or lydian b7(4th mode of melodic minor as some might say) could come in pretty handy. Modes are really just chord scales that allow you to emphasize different tension notes, and in that respect they are a good weapon to have in your arsenal - I'm sure even Vito Bratta would agree with me on that.

[Carvinite]

I think you should konw the Pentatonics...and the 7 modes...but dont get caught up in them (ex. My teacher) If you write somthing that doesnt correspond with theory and it sounds good to you....then dont try to change it up to where it works....

Just my $0.02

[Leviathon]

Watch some of the lessons by Satriani and you will know why IMO it's important to know scales and modes and why I am so eager to grasp them as well...

O by the way, you have to be a member of guitar.com... It's free so sign up and watch some of the vids... Very intresting...
Satriani Video Lessons (http://www.guitar.com/VideosMain.aspx?ParID=J)

[mjo]

Scales - seems too me they're usefull tools to help learn/play music.

curiousgeorge, as you stated, you were actually using some scales, whether you knew it or not. One way or another, you had to take the time to learn them. I wouldn't see that as a waste of time from any perspective. I'd also mention than scales have harmonic implications.
I think it's worth your while to learn scales, as much as chords, inversions etc. However, if you've found something that works for you, keep it up.

Modes - it's been stated that guitar players today are more obsessed with modes than any group of musicians in history...... :D :D
I don't think there's any holy grail hidden there although, I've gotten a great deal of use out of aeolian and mixolydian, I sometimes wonder if I'll find similar use for the rest, in the future.,?

Cheers
:Mike

[GuitarLausing]

People use scales because they are fundamental in music.

Scales are not just for "educated people"

Scales are collection of notes, that sound harmonic.

If you make up something that sounds good to you, without using scales, you are still using scales, because scales are collections of notes that sound harmonic to the human ear.

If you really dont use scales, your ears will bleed.

Very simply put (though not entirely true, but use as guidance (exaggeration is better for understanding))

[RandyEllefson]

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting what you are saying here. But with all due respect, you sound a little overly dismissive.
I think you may be misinterpreting :)

I'm not dismissive of modes themselves, only the obsession with them. There's a difference between obsession and having it just be another part of what you know as a player. That is my point, and I think you agree from your own comments.

The obsession is the subject of the thread, and when a guitarist wonders if they need to learn all of these things to be any good, because obsessed players have given them that impression, I always feel compelled to point out modes are useful but not the end of the world if they don't know them. I think that is fair and honest to them.

My other point is to let players who ARE obsessed with them do their thing, because I have seen players with different viewpoints give each other grief when neither should. My take is that, if someone is far more interested in them than me, to shut up and let them have their fun.:)

[Bongo Boy]

A predictably-spirited dialog. Beverages all around!

[LarryJ]

i didn't read this, so i assume it was mentioned, but when your playing a scale over a progression (and you know that scale fits) then you will always play the correct notes. It is more important for improvisation than for composing stuff imo though.

As for those who are 'obsessed' with scales, my thought is that it doesn't hurt. It instead gives you all sorts of different sounds to play with, and you might deciede you like it and work on a scale further. A good example would be Marty Freidman and his use of Japanese scales, or Vai and alot of his 'asian-sounding' melodies. This isn't stuff you normally play unless you know what your playing first. The more you know, and know well, the more options you have to play with, and the more creative/different you can be.

[DanF]

I guess I'm posting this right as Larry makes my point. The funniest thing is that no one has even read the replies before them :P "Spirited" maybe, dialog? More like verbal handball. Same thing keeps coming off the wall.

I don't know why I even post that everyone has already said the same stuff. No one will read this one either! *shakes his head*

-Dan

[EricV]

Although I am sure this has been mentioned in this thread before in some way:

It depends on what you wanna do. If you wanna jam on some blues with your friends on the weekend, or if you only wanna play your own stuff, you sure won´t necessarily need to know the modes.
However, they can be a great tool, and for some gigs, it´s essential that you´re able to play something in the right key and / or mode, to be able to improvise and provide certain sounds.
People keep mentioning Jeff Beck and Eddie Van Halen, who are "ear players", I guess. But there are just as many ( or even more ) examples of players who know their theory.
I think it´s only fair that a player spends some time learning the "rules" ( even thougg they´re not exactly rules )... I mean, if you spend a lot of time practixing, you might just as well study some theory.
And I don´t think that knowing theory takes away from the creative side.
Also, knowing the modes is not "being crazy about scales". Those are "basics". There are so many more scales. And I have heard some guys play amazing stuff with those exotic scales, even if they´re not vital for most players.
One thing, though... especially younger players seem to think that they need to learn as many scales as possible. A lot of them seem to think that that automatically makes them a better player and is the "secret key" to great soloing. Which of course is not entirely true, and it can be a dead end street to focus on learning all kinds of weird scales and nothing else.
Just my 2 cents
Eric

[Dommy]

I don't think that modes in themselves are very important, but they do help to gain an understanding of whats going on when you are playing, especially when you are playing something with a lot of key modulations. When I learned the modes, I learned them as 3 nps fingerings, which only really helped me to eventually see the scale tones in them, and increase my playing speed, but now I try to avoid 3 nps fingerings and use more position friendly fingerings, because I, and others, have found the 1-3-5 stretch quite ungainly and detrimental to playing melodically.

[Bizarro]

"I, and others, have found the 1-3-5 stretch quite ungainly and detrimental to playing melodically"

I totally agree that if someone "improvises" by playing straight up and down scales that it'll sound like crap. :) It's just not very musical.

However, I don't think 1-3-5 is a stretch for most people. 1-4-6 is a stretch sometimes, but 1-3-5 should be within reach after a little warmup.

[Koala]

TO sum it up, you wanna learn scales? Do it, it wont harm you. You dont wanna learn scales? Dont do it it wont harm you. Do what you feel like doing, and dont do what you dont feel like doing.

there :)

[LarryJ]

Hey, I read that Dan F! I just didn't have the patience to sit there and read the first page of comments/posts at the time.

I think even if someone posted it, you always like to add your opinion, even if it is the same or obvious, it might be human nature, or i might just be a jerk. Lets hope for the first option.

[debaser]

I'm not dismissive of modes themselves, only the obsession with them. There's a difference between obsession and having it just be another part of what you know as a player. That is my point, and I think you agree from your own comments.

The obsession is the subject of the thread, and when a guitarist wonders if they need to learn all of these things to be any good, because obsessed players have given them that impression, I always feel compelled to point out modes are useful but not the end of the world if they don't know them. I think that is fair and honest to them.

Well put, and point taken. All useful areas of theory should be studied, and obsession is generally a bad thing. I did take your first post the wrong way.

[SeattleRuss]

I think the problem is that too many players learn scales & modes and then when it comes solo time, what do they play? Scales & modes. Many players think that they can play the excercises they used to practice the scales and modes when they solo. S&M (scales and modes - sounds bad huh?lol!) should be learned to train your ears and fingers. When you play any given scale over any given chord, it's a good idea to hear each note in context, with the chord underneath serving as it's harmonic underpinning....If you train your ear *using* S&Ms, after awhile, you probably won't be thinking as much in terms of what exact scale you're "in" at the time but more like "What this note sounds like over this harmony"

Some, I promise, I'll post something that makes sense! LOL!

[Angry Hamster]

Being lazy I havent read all of the above, so this may have already been said. I think a problem with modes and scales can be people feel their creativity restricted by them when starting out (Dunno if you agree with me). This can make some people think "why should I learn them at all?" but actually I believe this should make you learn them even better. If you have full musical understanding of the scale/mode you are working with (which doesnt actually take that long to achieve) you will find that you can make the modes/scales serve you, and reach the kind of sound you are after. Admittedly this can probably be achieved through pure improvisation, but knowing scales can speed you musical development along considerably.

They are there to help you, not hinder you. Work with them!

[Angry Hamster]

whoops, just realised I replied to a post that has been inactive for nearly a year! dont mind me guys... :o

[madisgp]

Seems to me that music theory (scales, modes etc) is the Language that musicians use to "talk" to each other. If you want to play with others they will need you to speak their language. If you just run off on what sounds good to you it would be easy to loose everybody else in the group. By knowing where every one is going the music makes sense for everyone. And new directions can easily be taken by just communicating "lets try F# there". Guitar players are for the most part playing with others all the time and need to communicate (except classical) so learning the language seems to be VERY imortant, at least for me. I'm working on this as the focus of my practice for just this reason. I've got a long way to go but the objective is to be able to play compatently in a group setting. Just my 2 cents.

[cardello]

I don't understand where the obsession with scales and modes comes from either. There is quite a mystical, clandestine quality to modes when a young guitar player comes across them. But there's nothing complicated about them, and I think people arbitrarily assign a high degree of posterity to being able to play any mode, anywhere on the fretboard. WHY IS EVERYBODY SO MODES-CRAZY???

Modes are not what its all about! What you need to extract from studying modes (IMO) is to gain the 'ear' for hearing different intervals from a root note. That way, when you're soloing, you can HEAR what kind of sound you're going for, and you'll know how to get there!

BUT, in order to make the transition from what you HEAR to what you PLAY SMOOOTH, we have to do this annoying little thing.

This little thing is called PRACTICE! it means, play the major scale upside down inside out, different intervals, different positions, patterns, different ways of connecting. practicing arpeggios hidden inside the scale, and so on and so forth...

hope that wasn't too much of a ramble and some sense makes it out there! :o :)

edit: then do this all over again for the melodic minor scale and its modes, learn how to apply melodic minor to create tension.. .its a bottomless pit, really

[forgottenking2]

I was once mode obsesed... and I am still somewhat of a theory freak (I freak out another music teacher friend by overanalyzing everything he does on guitar <more as inside joke, but if someone took it seriously it WOULD be freaky. It impresses student though :p >) and while it's cool to be able to put a name tag to everything you see or hear, that will not make you play cleaner or improve your vibrato; if you think that knowing all that theory will give you a creative boost... think again, knowing your theory is simply having a wider array of colors to pick from, if your drawing is bad an unimaginative, buying a bigger crayola box won't make you any better. Now if you enjoy music theory and HAVE to know what things are called go right ahead like Koala said, learn it. I won't hurt you, and you'll know what (even the most pompous) musicians are talking about. On the other hand back to the crayola example, if you are stuck and pretty sick of the colors you have, getting a few more colors may give you the inspiration you need, so may be the case with a new theoretical concept the key in that case would be to apply everything inmediately to your instrument in a musical way. Theory MUST be applied in a musical situation, that's where I think the whole confusion with the modes come from, people just playing the major scale starting on a different note every time.

There was some other post where Chris J. talked about modal chords (I saw a similar thing in a Joe Satriani book it was a HUGE eye opener) maybe you should check that out. It's the sound of a mode compressed down into a vertical structure (a. k. a. chord :P ).


Anyway, I rambled a lot... I hope I made sense.

[tucker97325]

Thanks for reopening, and pouring salt on this old wound. LOL

Scales? Modes? Patterns? What's the difference? I'm hearing guys say "I don't want to learn scales and modes", and in the same breath their saying "I play my patterns, and that's all I need."

Well, I'll admit I am not an expert in this area (or any other), but just from a purely logical point of view, I would say those players "patterns" are scales (probably abbreviated), and probably modes of some sort, they just haven't given them names. For all I know, they are playing the same exact scales and modes you're all talking about, and just don't know it. I would suppose that if some of them were to post the "patterns" they say they play, some bright young theory star would be able to tell them "Hey look, that right there is the Lydian mode".

I for one am interested in learning scales and modes simply in order to give my fingers a tour of the fret board. So that eventually, I can trust them to go there on their own, without too much supervision.

Kind of like raising kids.

Just my thought on this thread.

[Los Boleros]

Modes are a way of examining how the same scale works when played over different chords. They are also a way of explaining why you did something and why it worked. It may take a little while before you get over the mechanicle side of them before you can actually begin to realise what is going on but in the end it can improve your playing dramatically. Imagine that someone tells you to jam over a I-vi-IV-V-I in the key of C major and you only know the key of C as one scale. You are gonna hit alot of wrong notes before you begin to find melodies that work. Now if you use modes as a guideline to selecting the proper accent notes over the right chords, then you are gonna sound like a real pro all the time. I believe that many that are frustrated with them have just not flicked the right switch on yet as to how powerful this can be.

My .06 cents

[hairballxavier]

I think alot of the obsession with modes among metal guitarists today is a result of Randy Rhodes. He would stick classical scale runs right in the middle of a heavy metal solo and it sounded good because they would change keys for it and then go back to rock seamlessly. He used modes as a compositional tool in a rock context and actually made it work. Then came the dreaded "neo-classical" metal players. Guys like Malmsteen would arrange whole songs around the modes instead of just using them during a key change. That just doesn't rock. They abandoned the rock/blues roots of metal. Hell, many even started calling the blues scale an altered minor mode.

Alot of it may have to do with piano teachers trying to teach rock guitar too.

I couldn't even tell you what mode many of my leads are in. I could tell you the intervals, but I would have to look it up to tell you the name of the mode. I guess you have to learn the modes so you just forget about them later after you have all the intervals on the fretboard branded into your head. I think learning the modes are a shortcut to getting there. Finger and ear training perhaps, like running through the tires at football practice. Memorizing the patterns helps your rythem playing too because ou can relate extended chords to those patterns. Keep you from getting stuck in a barre/open chord rut. And knowing them all the way up and down the fretboard keeps you from getting trapped in a box.

For instance, in my take in the strictly funk thread I probably play 15 different chords over a short two chord vamp. All those chords come from patterns from the modes that I couldn't name. But they are all still right at my fingertips.

And really, you don't want to be stuck in a rut or trapped in a box. That's enough rambling for now.

[cardello]

"I for one am interested in learning scales and modes simply in order to give my fingers a tour of the fret board. So that eventually, I can trust them to go there on their own, without too much supervision. " - TUCKER

MY GOD, SOMEBODY FINALLY GETS IT!

[dalin]

^ yeah that really was a great way to put it Tucker.