Solos

[pic_flicker]

Hey guys, I'm fairly new to these forums. But the main point is, I need some help.

I have been playing guitar for about 2 1/2 years. I have never had a lesson, And where I live, There are't really any "Descent" guitar teachers. I probably haven't excelled in guitar playing in the past year, I have learned many songs that i didnt know before, but thats really about it. I can play solos that other people write (well, some) but i want to be able to write my own. I know the major scale, penatonic minor, and the natural minor scales(modes, whatever they are called). But i dont really know how to put them to use.

I like just about any kind of rock n roll, i can play quite a few metallica songs and quite a few of the metallica solos, i can play parts of eruption, my point is that i can play solos, i just cant write my own.
I just need some help or advice or anything anyone can give me. Thanks

[Priest Becker]

First things first do you know about keys? How to figuer out what scales to play in thier? If so then its a matter of noodling around or hearing it in your head and figuering it out. If not then that might wanna be the next area you head down. The amount of scales you know isnt whats imorant its the way you use them and knowing which keys to use what scales. Start with that and if any other problems arise ask more questions.

[pic_flicker]

I do know that if a song is in the key of say E then one should solo in the key of E. But it seems i read somewhere that you dont always have to end on the root note, or something like. You can end on the 5th or 7th. Or something like that.

I guess now I have a question. If you are playing a chord progression, how do you know what key it is in?

[Priest Becker]

Ok to tell the key of a chord figure out what major scale you play over it (do you know your basic formation for any major scale? if not learn that) what ever major scale your in thats your key :)

[pic_flicker]

e------------------------------------------------------------4---5---7--
b----------------------------------------------------5---7--------------
g----------------------------------------4---6---7----------------------
d--------------------------4---6---7------------------------------------
a-------------4---5---7-------------------------------------------------
E----5----7-------------------------------------------------------------

I know that major scale , and i know that the way that i tabbed it out is in the key of A

Thanks for the helping me in finding out what akey a chord progression is in.

[Carvinite]

Say you have a chord progression that goes

|: Am, C, G, D :|

I think thats G or c, but how would you figure out what key you are in?

But I do know that is somthing like the key your in is like the chord under the 4 chord in your progression. Am i right? So then that would be C. I dont think im right. Some one please chime in here and explain to us how you would find out what key you are in if your prgression is

|: Am, C, G, D :|

Ok after you know the key THEN what would you solo with it over? Now if I am right and my little paper is right then if we are in C then we should solo in Am Aeolien.....am i right?

Thanks

-Ryan

[ashc]

I'm sure a real expert will drop in, but strictly for A aeolian the D chord is a problem as you have an F# in there. A min pentatonic is safe. Back to that F#, then thats the major 6, so you have A dorian - which in turn is derived from the G major scale.

That gives you some options for the scale choice. As to the key I'm sure you could argue for the Am (dorian) or G options. If its 1 bar a chord, since the progression ends on D if you play it a few times I bet it would resolve nicely to a finish on a G as you go from the V chord to the I (a.k.a. a perfect cadence). If it was 4 bars of Am and 1 each of the other, an Am sound would be inescapable. If you re-arranged the same chords and made the C chord quite prominent (e.g. first chord and longer and say end on G) now we are looking towards C lydian because the F# is now #4. Still, no panic C lydian is derived from G major as well.

(BTW, for the A dorian, C lydian you would probably notate these in Am and C in turn and the F# would be an accidental in the transcription)

One other way to look at this from a solo point of view is to pool the notes of the chords and make your choices from there - with care.

Am : A C E
C : C E G
D : D F# A
G : G B D

==> A B C D E F# G (a dorian / g major)

Thinking pentatonic... So the parent major scale is G, and if we have an "Am sound" we can choose Am pentatonic "A C D E G" which is very friendly with all of those chords with 2 chord tones from every chord including all the roots. G major pentatonic G A B D E scores well too but not on the roots.

OK, time for the experts to set me straight.

AshC

edit: I should have said that with this progression shoved in front of me I (and millions of others) probably would have gone for Am pentatonic without any of that thinking so don't think you need to go to deep to get something usable if someone throws something at you.

[phantom]

hey-o folks

if you have |: Am, C, G, D :| you can look for the major chords in that progression. as you know there are major chords build on the I , the IV and the Vth step of the scale. if you have two major chords in a row (i.e. C / D) then most probably it is step IV and V you are seeing. that gives us G for the I chord.
|: Am, C, G, D :| would be ii, IV, I, V. the key would be G major. now pull out all your major scales - shift the root to G and start playing the scale and LISTEN where the notes are beeing pulled towards. you surely can hear if u are on a note that doesnt fit too nicely over the chord, take the next note of the scale (or the one before) and look of it resolves. play around with tension and resoluition to create an interessting but not to awkward melodie that fits the chords.

did that help?

[ajdowton]

Hey dudes,

A lot of people just learn scale patterns up and down, which is cool, but the most important thing is to know how a scale relates to a chord, and soloing over chord changes is about following the tonality of the chords. This is an oversimplification, but in the beginning is useful for clarity. For example, if someone is playing a chord progression, say a G barre chord on the 3rd fret 6th string, then a C minor chord, 3rd fret 5 string. You should be able to know which pentatonic (and correspondingly others depending on the chord) scale to play in that position over that G maj chord, and be able to remain in that area of the fretboard when playing over the c minor chord. Again, a simplification, though it's a useful one.

The way to accomplish this ability - ability to solo over any chord, ability to map out the fretboard and "break out" of the e minor pentatonic twelfth fret "hall of fame" box shape - or at least one of the ways, is to be able to play all of the inversions of a chord, with the corresponding pentatonic shape, up and down the neck. From major (with a pentatonic scale) you can progress to 7th chords etc. (and add corresponding notes to the pentatonic scale, eventually modes and other scales). So you should aspire to play an inversion of G, say with a fifth in the root (tenth fret, technically G/D), and know which pentatonic position to play. See my pic below. If you were to add different inversions to this G chord, simply add these to the scale.

Again, all of this is very basic and oversimplified, but hopefully it should give you some guidance.

Cheers

[Carvinite]

yea, but I think ill need to read it a few more times to let it really sink in.

[Carvinite]

hey-o folks

if you have |: Am, C, G, D :| you can look for the major chords in that progression. as you know there are major chords build on the I , the IV and the Vth step of the scale. if you have two major chords in a row (i.e. C / D) then most probably it is step IV and V you are seeing. that gives us G for the I chord.


How though, i dont understand. Why do you relate the C and D instead of the C and G? or was that just an example? So is the I chord Am? I dont really understand hen we use roman numerals, they just get me more confused :rolleyes:

[phantom]

I do know that if a song is in the key of say E then one should solo in the key of E. But it seems i read somewhere that you dont always have to end on the root note, or something like. You can end on the 5th or 7th. Or something like that.

take the scales as guidelines and let your ears decide where to go and where to rest. but resting on roots always sounds like "hmmm that guy is playing safe :D " you don't have enough tension/resolution and movement if you stay on the roots too long.
what you should do is: record a chord progression, figure out the key, let the progression play and stay on the keys root note for the whole progression. now listen how the note relates to the chord underneath. listen how big the tension gets or if there is any or when it resolves.
next step: same like above, but take another note and resolve tension if you fell its necessary. you'll see that sometimes even two notes are enough to make a perfekt solo!!! one note that creates tension over a specific chord, and one note that resolves it.
even one note can be enough if the chord progression underneath moves through the tension and resolution phases.
so with knowing that even one note can be enough, be careful with your notechoice and don't play too many "useless" notes :D .

have fun listening!

[phantom]

ryanite,

the roman numbers specifies the position of the chords in a key.
the chords of Cmajor are: C / dm / em / F / G / am / hmb5
in roman numbers that is: I / ii / iii / IV / V / vi / vii

as you see there is no D major in the key of C

the chords of Gmajor are: G / am / Bm / C / D / em / f#m
in roman numbers that is: I / ii / iii / IV / V / vi / vii

now you see we are having all the chords in your progression
the roman numbers underneath show the position and the quality of the chord.
|: Am, C, G, D :| is in roman numbers: ii / IV / I / V in the key of G

so the scale that includes all those notes of the chords is obviously G major.
there are tons of posibilities to solo over that changes tonematerialwise and depending on how you approach the chords. pitch axis system, modal thinking, pentatonic stuff.. the easiest one would be to stick to the Gmajor scale for the beginning.

[ashc]

To get a good idea of the concepts ajdowton is talking about we are essentially talking about the CAGED system of relating the basic chord shapes in open and barre form to the related scale and arpeggio shapes. There are lots of books (and web stuff on that). A good book though is Creative Guitar I, by Guthrie Govan. This is not a strictly technique or theory book just good solid advice and chord/scale info with some good sample tracks to try out the ideas on. Theres a Creative Guitar II as well for the more advanced techincal stuff.

I think many people are trying to eight finger tap before they even know how what scale to use (this is possibly the curse of the autodidact, and I know it well...)

AshC

[ashc]

One last thing (a challenge). Record the progression and then try out these options over the top (Am pent, G major, G major pent) and get back to us on which one sounded best ?

AshC

[Carvinite]

ahhh.....very very very confus....uhh I mean 'neat'.....I know how to use scales as long as I know what key im in.....but figuring aout the key you are in in a chord progression is the problem for me

[phantom]

see ryan that's what those roman numbers are good for!

in major you always have:

the first chord (I): major (or major7)
the second chord (ii): minor (or minor7)
the third chord (iii): minor (or minor7)
the fourth chord (IV): major (or major7)
the fifth chord (V): major (or dominant 7)
the sixth chord (vi): minor (or minor7)
the seventh chord (vii): minor b5 (or minor 7b5)

so if for instance you have a dominant7 lets say a E7 chord in a progression
the it has to be on the Vth step of the major scale (see above)!
now that you know E7 is on the fifth step, what would be on the 1st?
.........right, A! so Amajor is the key.

am is still speaking taiwanese to you :D :confused: :cool: :D :D

[Carvinite]

ryanite,

the roman numbers specifies the position of the chords in a key.
the chords of Cmajor are: C / dm / em / F / G / am / hmb5
in roman numbers that is: I / ii / iii / IV / V / vi / vii

as you see there is no D major in the key of C

the chords of Gmajor are: G / am / Bm / C / D / em / f#m
in roman numbers that is: I / ii / iii / IV / V / vi / vii

now you see we are having all the chords in your progression
the roman numbers underneath show the position and the quality of the chord.
|: Am, C, G, D :| is in roman numbers: ii / IV / I / V in the key of G

so the scale that includes all those notes of the chords is obviously G major.
there are tons of posibilities to solo over that changes tonematerialwise and depending on how you approach the chords. pitch axis system, modal thinking, pentatonic stuff.. the easiest one would be to stick to the Gmajor scale for the beginning.


So do you know all this because you memorized what notes were in wich keys?

OH WAIT!!

no you dont becuase of our formula!so according to our major formula

W-Wm-Hm-W-W-Wm-H (Half diminished right?)

If we started on C then we would have

C-Dm-Em-F-G-Am-b augmented or whatever

so C wouldnt work cuz theres no D, But then how would you know to go to G after you looked at C already?

I think i kind of understand now

[Carvinite]

with that post you were :D sorry :D:D

[phantom]

if i would have you sitting by my side ryan it would take 30 min and you would understand the whole system, it can just be so hard to explain over the net, with english not beeing my native language it's even harder.

you are on the right track i guess, and if you think about it a few more times it might snap :D !

you have a scale which consists of W - W - H - W - W - W - H. the major scale.

if you build chords upon every note of the scale (take 1 , 3 , 5 , 7th note of the scale - then take second note of the scale and again build 1, 3, 5, 7 with 1 beeing the second scale step now and so on) you end up getting the different chord qualities on the positions explained above. (the roman number thing).
every chord quality (major7, minor7, dom7, halfdim7) has its position in that system. so if you have i.e. a bm7b5 chord somewhere you are in the key of C because m7b5 chords are build on the 7th step of a major scale. and b beeing the 7th note of C makes vii = bm7b5 and I = Cmajor(7).

[Carvinite]

I am getting it more now than I ever did, I HAVE GOT TO go to bed now. It's 5:00 in the mornin here and I have to get up at 6:00 :( anyway, Thanks for all your help, I will come back here tommorow and ask my other questions! Thanks again!

-Ryan

PS: thanks ;)

[Carvinite]

you are on the right track i guess, and if you think about it a few more times it might snap :D !



what the idea or my neck trying to hold the weight of all these new ideas ? :confused: :D :p

[phantom]

;) alright,
c.u.

no nightmares please ;)

[phantom]

what the idea or my neck trying to hold the weight of all these new ideas ?

one after the other...looool :D

[Carvinite]

um....the nightmares have already arrived :D Ohh....Well if the idea snaps first then ill be ok ;)

[ashc]

quote: so C wouldnt work cuz theres no D, But then how would you know to go to G after you looked at C already?

You don't have to. The progression had 3 major chords C,D,G. The major chords in the harmonised scale appear at I, IV and V. Since there is a tone between IV and V that must be C and D in your example, so the I, IV, V must be G, C, D. So it's G major.

nb: When a progression is not wholly diatonic to a major scale you can still usually use whats there as clues to find a "home". e.g. one common twist in rock/pop etc. is to swap the VIIdim for the major chord on the b7 e.g. you might find Bb major chords in otherwise C major progressions. This goes along with another trick on the same note with making the Imaj7 a Idom7.

AshC

[Dj Empty]

What I try to do is find out or create a ummm progression of some sort. Then I listen to it while im listening I then humming notes to myself while the progression is playing. While I am Humming notes I may get tons of ideas and there you go pick up the Axe then go at it... (Theory is all confusing to me)