Really fast swept arpeggio

[Dommy]

I'm trying to figure out how to finger this swept arpeggio so I don't kill myself in the process.


File is attached.

I've tried starting with my pinky on the way up for a more comfortable feel, then rolling my middle finger on the way back down...but I haven't found anything good yet.

For reference, this is from the Ron Carter/Jim Hall Album Alone Together

[Bizarro]

One finger per fret... you'll need to roll your middle finger for the 8th fret notes so they don't ring.

Did you read EricV's article on sweeping? It's really good!

[Arise]

Without thinking about it one second, same as Biz (finger 1=7th fret, 2=8th, 3=9th, 4=10th ).

[axe_man_oli]

yeh... you need to get that finger rolling... its a fairly easy task... remeber... go slow to get the rolls clean and then speed it up...

[Arise]

you need to get that finger rolling... its a fairly easy task...
FAIRLY EASY TASK!? .....u've gotta be some kind of alien with weels on ur fingertips....this is without doubt the hardest thing for me to do...I mean i'm really too slow at it and it confuses me.

Btw, how do u ppl do it (rolling)? ie, really bending ur finger into it, or rather pulling ur whole finger/hand down and towards you while only straightening it or just like jumping a bit+ rolling so to avoid total barring? I may sound a bit too detallist here but everyone talks bout "rolling" but no more precision is ever given...And how do u rollback? (i find it harder)....Maybe someone experienced in this could help by video/description or somthing.

[axe_man_oli]

heres how I do it... if I'm just rolling across two strings.. I aim to fret the first one with a little bit of overhang on my finger... so I kinda almost barre both notes but I only fret one string... and then I just roll over so the tip of my finger just rolls down on the second string.. and then I take my finger of the other string which is fairly easy coz my finger tip is fretting the other string...

Just go at it really slow... and keep doing it and making sure it is clean.. once you understand how to roll and you can do it with one finger on one string you will know how to and be able to do it with all strings and fingers...

[axe_man_oli]

FAIRLY EASY TASK!? .....u've gotta be some kind of alien with weels on ur fingertips....this is without doubt the hardest thing for me to do...I mean i'm really too slow at it and it confuses me.

Btw, how do u ppl do it (rolling)? ie, really bending ur finger into it, or rather pulling ur whole finger/hand down and towards you while only straightening it or just like jumping a bit+ rolling so to avoid total barring? I may sound a bit too detallist here but everyone talks bout "rolling" but no more precision is ever given...And how do u rollback? (i find it harder)....Maybe someone experienced in this could help by video/description or somthing.
yes, It is basically barring the notes but not pushing on both at the same time.. so one is muted and then you roll your finger over to the next one and apply presure to it while letting your finger lift up and mute the other string... sounds complicated.. really isnt...

[Alan(Lost)]

Generally with rolling, you start on your fingertip and roll your finger down to the next string on the same fret. But when you get to rolling over three notes with one finger, you won't have as much of a rotation over some of the notes as you do have with rolling from the fingertip, like:

E|-----------------5--10--|
B|--------------7---------|
G|----------7-------------|
D|------7-----------------|
A|5--9--------------------|

For that one (which is a 5 string D major shape), you'd roll on the 7th fret. I roll with my middle finger for that shape, starting on the fingertip for the roll from the D to G string. But when you've to roll from the G to the B, you won't have as much rotation to work with, so it's important to really hit the D string with the fingertip to give you more rounded finger when you reach the roll for the G to B string.
Rolling back is a bit trickier, I find anyway. I tried and practiced it a lot and figured out my most comfortable way of doing it. For me anyway, I don't find it to be a symmetrical movement to the forward roll. The notes bleed easier (notes run into each other; i.e. more than one note at a time). But the main thing is that it takes a lot of time to make it clean. Hope this helps (mainly replying to Arise here).

[Maarten]

Dommy, I guess you are talking about the lick at about 2:50 into alone together, the 2nd sweep lick Jim plays. I think (not entirely sure) the second note is an e instead of an eb. It sounds like he's playing a Cmaj7 arpeggio, just like the Dmaj7 arp in the previous lick. For me this shape is easier to play because I can use a finger for each note instead of having to roll. I've attached a picture of my fingering.

[Dommy]

I'm almost sure its some sort of Altered Dominant arp...yeah, it is the second arpeggio. I transcribed it using Transcribe! and slowed it down to 5 percent...The first one is a Dmaj9 arp.

I listened to that cut so much, I was able to play part of Ron Carter's opening solo without actually transcribing it, I mean the actual solo, not the head.

I'm going over it again, and trying to match the pitches. I'm pretty sure its an Eb, but the analysis is giving it right between Eb and E, leaning towards Eb, but when I listen to it, it really just sounds like an Eb. At that kind of speed, I'm sure I could make up any arpeggio just so long as the G B and D are still intact as the melody notes...

[Maarten]

I guess this will always remain a mystery then :) The voicing of the first 4 chords of the head is something I use a lot in other songs since I figured them out, great record, I really like their version of I remember april.

[Dommy]

Haha! Yeah, I transcribed that too, I love it. Its like a minor rhythm changes made from a ii-V-I, if kept in root position, its just a Dmin7 moving to a Dmin6, but since a Dmin6 is also a Bmin7b5, it gives a nice feeling of motion.

Its Dmin7 - Bmin7b5 - Emin7#5 - A7alt

yeah, its supposed to be a Emin7b5, but it seems that voiceleading the top note has more priority than including the b5...

That progression taught me so much about the importance of proper voiceleading in comping, Jim Hall is so subtle, but so powerful at the same time, I saw him live at the Villiage Vanguard when he was recording his latest album. Scott Colley was on bass and Lewis Nash was on drums.


Their version of I remember April is one of most "sad/blue" versions I've ever heard, I think its due to the modulations around that "G" root from M7 to M6 to m7 to m6...sounds really cool to me. I have the charts for all of the tunes on that album, Softly, As In The Morning Sunrise is one of my favorites, that great halftime minor blues feel is infectious.

[Maarten]

yeah, its supposed to be a Emin7b5, but it seems that voiceleading the top note has more priority than including the b5...


I always play it as a E7(#5#9), though I can't hear if Jim actually plays a 3rd in his voicing. m7(b5) is often substituted with a 7alt.

And you are completely right on the voice leading, proper voice leading can make a lot of weird stuff work, check out Thelonius Monk or Steely Dan.

[Dommy]

There is no M3'rd in the voicing, well, none that I can detect. Chordal ambiguity is always fun.

One of my favorite Dom13 voicings is as follows

--7--
--5--
--4--
--3--
--x--
--x--

G13 with a doubled 3rd, gives a nice sophisticated chorusy effect. Different intervals from the 3rd to the 6th up to the 3rd.

Yeah, I like Monk myself, some of his stuff is sometimes a little too oblique, but for the most part its great..