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ignorant
10-22-2004, 08:24 PM
I must say that I have learned so much so far from this site. I have 2 questions though. In music notation with both the treble and bass clef how is a chord represented? Also I have searched and can't find the fingerings on the scales. It would help me tremendously to know those. Thanks to all. Doesn't want to remain ignorant.

Malcolm
10-22-2004, 08:53 PM
I've never mastered taking standard notation to chords. I've played with using the bass cliff, right about 50% of the time. Then taking the top note on the treble cliff, again right about 50% of the time. Dead give away is three stacked notes together. Good luck.

Now as to the scale fingering. There is a link shown below that will give the basic Major, minor, Pentatonic and blues scale patterns. I use patterns and recommend them as a starting place. Get the pattern's root note on the 6th string note you want to play and let the pattern do the rest.

Click here for the patterns (http://www.cyberfret.com/scales/basic/print.html)

Red dot is the root - want to play in the G scale put the root on the 6th string 3rd fret. A will be at the 5th fret, B at the 7th etc. The numbers are the fingers to use. 1=index, 2=middle, etc.

If you follow the pattern the notes, sharps, flats etc. will automatically fall in the right place.

Guni
10-22-2004, 11:04 PM
In music notation with both the treble and bass clef how is a chord represented?Not quite sure what you are asking? Could you be a bit more specific?

BluesMetal
10-22-2004, 11:39 PM
The staff, when having both bass and trebble cleffs are seperated by what is called middle C. Considering they were originally made for piano (assuming, so if not /flame on :P) middle C is the C key nearest the center of the keyboard.. now any notes played below middle C fall in the bass cleff and any above middle C in the trebble cleff. If a chord has notes from above and below middle C there is no hard rule as far as I know as to weather it is "supposed" to be bass or trebble since really the cleffs are just to tell you what hand is to play what on a piano, so if for piano music it would be placed where you would use the hand the composer had in mind, middle C and the notes included in the bass cleff are often played with the right hand as are notes above middle C and the ones included in the trebble cleff are often played with the left.. You couldn't look at a staff and know unless you are up to par with sight reading since on traditional sheet music the space between the cleffs is more than needed to transcribe notes/chords beyond middle C and not have bass and trebble cleffs running together. As far as guitar goes there is only one cleff since fingering is only done with one hand.
To my understanding anyway.... I am not a guru by any means hehe, but I can work in powetab and nerver get errors, and it makes me feel good lol.

ignorant
10-23-2004, 05:10 AM
Not quite sure what you are asking? Could you be a bit more specific? On a sheet of music I am looking at right now there are 2 notes on the treble and 2 notes on the bass. Would you combine them for a chord or is a chord notated differently? They are directly in line vertically.

BluesMetal
10-23-2004, 09:48 AM
On a sheet of music I am looking at right now there are 2 notes on the treble and 2 notes on the bass. Would you combine them for a chord or is a chord notated differently? They are directly in line vertically.
If all 4 are in a vertical line then yes they are supposed to be played together.

Bongo Boy
10-23-2004, 08:59 PM
Okay. Yes, they are all played simultaneously, but NOT necessarily by the same instrument. I don't think there is EVER a case where the music for a single instrument is depicted on two staves at the same time, except for keyboards. I may be wrong on that, but it is more likely that the intention of your music is that it is a) for keyboards, or b) they intend two instruments, one of which plays the bass part.

I think I'm saying just about the same think BluesMetal is saying (two posts up), but in a different way.

I'm not sure if you were asking for the fretboard patterns for common scales, but if so, here is a great pdf document made by hellogoodbye some time back:

dave111
10-24-2004, 01:11 AM
Bongo Boy- I think the only other instruments are organ- 2 staves, and harp 2 staves.

Regarding Scale Patterns, I've tabbed out scale patterns for a few weird scales. If anyone wants them, just tell me :)

Bongo Boy
10-24-2004, 02:23 AM
Oh yeah, the harp. That's not a real instrument, though. :D

Oh wait. Bongo is totally wrong on THAT score--check this out:

http://www.kortier.com/elec34.htm

JohnJumper
10-24-2004, 06:39 AM
Oh yeah, the harp. That's not a real instrument, though.And you have the Juice or Jews Harp...:D

Check it out!

http://www.jewsharp.com/MP3/Irish%20Duet.mp3

Koala
10-24-2004, 06:57 AM
Oh yeah, the harp. That's not a real instrument, though. :D

Oh wait. Bongo is totally wrong on THAT score--check this out:

http://www.kortier.com/elec34.htm

God I hope Vai doesn´t get to see those :D

BluesMetal
10-24-2004, 11:07 AM
Harp? :confused: whats a harp? Thought we were talking about musical stuff.

:cool:

ignorant
10-25-2004, 04:25 AM
Okay. Yes, they are all played simultaneously, but NOT necessarily by the same instrument. I don't think there is EVER a case where the music for a single instrument is depicted on two staves at the same time, except for keyboards. I may be wrong on that, but it is more likely that the intention of your music is that it is a) for keyboards, or b) they intend two instruments, one of which plays the bass part.

I think I'm saying just about the same think BluesMetal is saying (two posts up), but in a different way.

I'm not sure if you were asking for the fretboard patterns for common scales, but if so, here is a great pdf document made by hellogoodbye some time back: Thanks very much. I was looking for which finger on which fret for the scales. Malcom gave me a site for those and they have helped. I also printed the one you gave me and i think it is beginning to make sense. Now for the chords, are you saying that they would only appear on one or the other of the staves? btw I am sorry I haven't gotten back sooner but I have been out of town.

Bongo Boy
10-25-2004, 02:13 PM
Now for the chords, are you saying that they would only appear on one or the other of the staves?Yes, I believe that's true--especially if the music you're looking at is intended for two instruments, say, guitar and bass.

Notice, though, that IF the notes on both staves are perfectly aligned vertically, that they, taken all together, form a chord. You COULD write all the notes on a single stave if you wanted to. Also, depending on the range that is spanned by the complete set of notes (on both staves), all of them might actually be playable at once on the guitar.

Finally, if the music is NOT specifically intended for guitar--it's simply general old sheet music--then in order to play the notes that are written in the music, you have to use guitar fingerings for notes one octave higher. For example, if you look at a fretboard diagram for guitar that shows you how to play the 'C' that appears in the 3rd space of the treble clef, the 'C' that's actually sounded by the instrument is Middle C--the 'C' on the first leger line below the treble clef. All music (and fingerings) shown for guitar are written one octave higher than they actually sound.

If I can add more confusion, please let me know. :D

ignorant
10-25-2004, 04:47 PM
Yes, I believe that's true--especially if the music you're looking at is intended for two instruments, say, guitar and bass.

Notice, though, that IF the notes on both staves are perfectly aligned vertically, that they, taken all together, form a chord. You COULD write all the notes on a single stave if you wanted to. Also, depending on the range that is spanned by the complete set of notes (on both staves), all of them might actually be playable at once on the guitar.

Finally, if the music is NOT specifically intended for guitar--it's simply general old sheet music--then in order to play the notes that are written in the music, you have to use guitar fingerings for notes one octave higher. For example, if you look at a fretboard diagram for guitar that shows you how to play the 'C' that appears in the 3rd space of the treble clef, the 'C' that's actually sounded by the instrument is Middle C--the 'C' on the first leger line below the treble clef. All music (and fingerings) shown for guitar are written one octave higher than they actually sound.

If I can add more confusion, please let me know. :D All here have done an excellent job of simplfying things for me. I do want to express my sincere thanks. I still am not quite there but that is my fault. I am a little slow but given time I believe I will get there.

oRg
10-25-2004, 05:36 PM
No rush. Take as much as you can handle and nothing more. If you do your setting yourself up for dissappointment.

ignorant
10-25-2004, 05:49 PM
Thanks. I think I will try to digest what I have and ask questions on those things that confuse me. I believe I got ahead of myself on the chord question. I am still teying to work out the fingering on the scales. I got it on the e major scale first fret but the rest just hasn't clicked yet.

Bongo Boy
10-25-2004, 10:48 PM
I am still trying to work out the fingering on the scales.One thing none of us mentioned that may not be so obvious: most all fingering charts will show a set of dots on the fretboard for a given scale (at a given position on the fretboard). It is assumed that this 'set' of positions is played with the left hand held more or less in one, fixed position.

In most cases, all the dots in a set can all be pressed using the 4 fingers of the left hand, with each finger having 'responsibility' for a single fret position, all strings. It also assumed that, in some cases, the 1st finger will have to move to one lower fret position occassionally, OR the 4th finger will have to move to one higher fret position occassionally (1st finger stretch or 4th finger stretch).

You may have known this, but maybe not, eh? Did I just embarass myself?

Bongo Boy
10-26-2004, 03:55 AM
One 'little' item I didn't mention (because I didn't even think about it) is that, when multi-staff music is intended for a single player (as in the case of piano), the treble and bass clefs will be connected in several ways. The image below shows three ways the two staves are connected: 1) At the left, a brace is used to 'collect' the staves. Sometimes there will be a text notation to the left of the brace indicating the intended instrument, 2) Bar lines (the thin veritcal lines that separate measures) extend across both staves, and 3) Notes that are beamed together may be on both staves, as is shown here.

All these things contribute to a feeling of a single, 'unified' line for one instrument. This example is taken from Hanon's The Virtuoso Pianist...a set of piano exercises recently referenced by Bizarro in another thread (http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/showpost.php?p=52064&postcount=4).

ignorant
10-27-2004, 05:28 AM
One thing none of us mentioned that may not be so obvious: most all fingering charts will show a set of dots on the fretboard for a given scale (at a given position on the fretboard). It is assumed that this 'set' of positions is played with the left hand held more or less in one, fixed position.

In most cases, all the dots in a set can all be pressed using the 4 fingers of the left hand, with each finger having 'responsibility' for a single fret position, all strings. It also assumed that, in some cases, the 1st finger will have to move to one lower fret position occassionally, OR the 4th finger will have to move to one higher fret position occassionally (1st finger stretch or 4th finger stretch).

You may have known this, but maybe not, eh? Did I just embarass myself? I didn't know this and thanks very much.

ignorant
10-27-2004, 05:31 AM
:D
One 'little' item I didn't mention (because I didn't even think about it) is that, when multi-staff music is intended for a single player (as in the case of piano), the treble and bass clefs will be connected in several ways. The image below shows three ways the two staves are connected: 1) At the left, a brace is used to 'collect' the staves. Sometimes there will be a text notation to the left of the brace indicating the intended instrument, 2) Bar lines (the thin veritcal lines that separate measures) extend across both staves, and 3) Notes that are beamed together may be on both staves, as is shown here.

All these things contribute to a feeling of a single, 'unified' line for one instrument. This example is taken from Hanon's The Virtuoso Pianist...a set of piano exercises recently referenced by Bizarro in another thread (http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/showpost.php?p=52064&postcount=4). You have been so very helpful. Maybe someday I can return the favor. Want to know anything about bricklaying?:D

Bongo Boy
10-27-2004, 05:51 AM
I know enough about bricklaying to know that, as a beginner, it doesn't mix well with guitar-playing. I used to clean used brick in the summers (penny a brick) and I think I'm lucky to still have a left thumb. :)

ignorant
10-27-2004, 05:59 AM
I know enough about bricklaying to know that, as a beginner, it doesn't mix well with guitar-playing. I used to clean used brick in the summers (penny a brick) and I think I'm lucky to still have a left thumb. :)It does tend to give you stiff fingers. I did that work for 30 years so my fingers don't move as weel as they should. But I am working on it. I don't do that for a living anymore.

Bongo Boy
11-23-2004, 02:27 AM
So is this a dead topic now...how are things coming along? I think we should move this thread to Eartraining, Rhythm & Reading since it's a nice thread about reading music. Any objections?

ignorant
11-24-2004, 06:28 AM
So is this a dead topic now...how are things coming along? I think we should move this thread to Eartraining, Rhythm & Reading since it's a nice thread about reading music. Any objections? Hey my friend, I am still around and check here often. I don't post because I don't feel I have anything to add right now. I am doing better on the scales. Too much concern for what the notes were was causing me some problem so I just started learning the patterns and it has helped. I intend to do more on the notes when I become more familiar with the patterns. As far as the question on the chord notaion I think all the music I have seen must be written for piano. Most of the music I see is hymns so it is naturally for the piano. Good to hear from you.