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Wylde fan
11-26-2004, 09:22 PM
Well, how do you do it? I'm talking about listening to a song, and knowing what notes (chords or single notes) are what, and then just being able to play it. Or even tabbing a song by ear (which is the same thing, you just write it down on paper so you can remember it).

It all seems so very impossible to me. I just can't recognize the notes, especially because I listen to metal, and it's generally quite fast. But even in slow songs I can't do it.

Please help!

Malcolm
11-26-2004, 11:45 PM
How many notes in a scale? Chromatic has 12, Major / minor has 7 so---- To chicken pick the melody you only need 7 notes. Take the Major or minor pattern - and then only use the 1st to 4th string of the pattern -- and use that "octave" to pick out the melody. Only 7 choices, chicken pick'in is not all that hard.

Or do it on one string. White Christmas on the 2nd string. Hint start on the 5th fret when you get to the 15th fret start back.

Wylde fan
11-27-2004, 01:17 AM
Whoa, does that have anything to do with my post :) Must have been the wrong thread you posted in ;P

Malcolm
11-27-2004, 01:22 AM
Well I thought I was giving you a starting place of how to do it. First you have to pick out the melody and then write it down. Find the right notes on your fretboard, and then record them on paper as you find them. One or two measures at a time.

If I'm still missing your point, sorry.

silent-storm
11-27-2004, 01:27 AM
Nope, it had everything to do with your thread. He was saying that if it's a 'normal' western song for every note played there are 12 possibilities, so you have a 1 in 12 chance of hitting the right note. So, just start eliminating possibilities. It also usually helps if you can get the song in your head good enough so you can sing it correctly then try and figure it out. It takes practice like everything else, take something really simple like Happy Birthday. Sing it over and over to yourself. Then sing the first note, stop and try and find it.

Or just take the song you originally wanted to figure out, sit down and just don't stand up until you have it. It's the whole idea that if you lock 10000 monkeys in a room with 10000 type writters eventually one of them is gonna write 'war and peace'.

There is no forumla or method, just start out real simple...everyone else that ever played a musical instrument certainly did.

Wylde fan
11-27-2004, 01:37 AM
I'm so sorry Malcolm, I just didn't get it. I didn't mean to offend you. I think I must have gotten confused when you started talking about chicken picking.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by the 1 in 12 chance of getting it right. There are way more notes than that on the guitar...

Please explain.

Malcolm
11-27-2004, 01:49 AM
Your guitar fretboard has many octaves, patterns, scales, etc. that repeat themselves from the nut to the 21 fret. But, every song we play in the Western part of the world revolves around only 12 possible notes.

These 12 notes repeat themselves twice on the 1st to 6 string in the 1st to 4th fret area. That's two octaves right there. So yes by the time you run up and down the fretboard you have many possibilities (I've never counted them all).

BUT, to make a simple song you only need to use 12 notes. After you can pick out the melody from these 12 notes you can worry about moving into other more tonal octaves.

Same thing with chords. You can play open string chords in the nut to 4th fret area or you can take that same chord up the neck, and in most cases play it at least three other places before reaching the 12th fret.

Your fretboard is full of repeat patterns, scales, chords, etc. Again you only need focus on one spot right at first.

Bizarro
11-27-2004, 01:57 AM
The key is to relate what you hear to what your fingers play. You need to establish a reference point. These exercises should help.
1. Learn some basic melodies. Happy Birthday to You, Ode to Joy, whatever.
2. Find a range where you can sing along with those melodies. You need to create a relationship between your fingers, ears, and brain. This is a great way to start.
3. Sing along with scales (major, minor, pentatonic, whatever).
4. Once you know the scales fairly well, play the root, and try sing all the way up the scale. Check yourself every note or two.

Try learn some basic songs (Nirvana, Kiss, Bush, etc) and concentrate on how the chord progression sounds. Try hum along with the song when you hear it (without your guitar). Try visualize how what you hear relates to how you would play it.

It isn't easy, but I'm convinced everybody can develop a very good ear. Musicianship is all about hearing and reacting to sounds. In my opinion it is way more useful to have a good ear than to have great technique. Of course, we all want both! :)

Good luck.

Wylde fan
11-27-2004, 02:03 AM
Malcom: I knew all about the scales and stuff like that (I'm not a very good player , but I took piano for a number of years before I started playing guitar three years ago, so my theory knowledge is...reletively good).

I got confused because I forgot that once I had the melody, I could worry about moving it up in the scale.

Thanks!

[b]Bizzaro: Thank you very much for your tips. I do know a fair amount of simple songs, and well as some complicated ones, that I like to hum along, or sing, to. Quite unfortunately, I can't sing. Period. I'm a terrible singer, I hear my voice very differantly as to the rest of the world, and hear other sounds normally. I sing flat, and a whole big bunch of wierd stuff.

Thanks to both of you :) And any more tips would be great :)

Bizarro
11-27-2004, 02:15 AM
I'm not a good singer either, but that's the best way I know to get the connection between my hands and ears. It's the "middle man" that keeps me honest and on track. It's not really about singing well, it's about training yourself to be a better musician.

After much work (decades) I can figure out 99% of the stuff on the radio by listening to it without a guitar laying around. In fact, for many new cover tunes that my band plays I'll just put the CD in my car and figure it out on my drive to work. I can play just about any melody or solo I hear (within reason!)... It has taken a lot of work to get to this point but I'm a better musician because of it. All the great teachers give the same advice (including Satriani, Vai and Howard Roberts, among others). That's who taught me about it, by reading their tips in guitar mags.

fortymile
11-27-2004, 05:46 AM
ear playing is great fun. i dont think you have to know much theory to do it AT ALL. in fact it will just get in the way. i played for 10 years by ear alone.

if youre listening to speed metal, good luck, though i would suggest a tactic for that too (chunking, at the end of this post). here's how i do it for simple songs:

listen to a song and follow only the lowest note. if you want to learn a chord progression, in your mind just ignore the bass guitar. edit everything out but the guitar, and listen to the lowest notes in the guitar chords. dont try to figure out if the chords are minor or major. just pay attention to the chord roots and try to find those notes on your guitar or a piano, while playing along, or after you listen, using your memory.

after you've got them, turn the notes into chords. just try major and then minor. you can get the chord progression in this way. the only tricky things in popular music are typically inversions. in the case of inversions, youre already sure of your root note, so just try out the possible inversions. for what it's worth, i rarely even run into them. for simplicity's sake, forget about chord extensions for now--they can be added later. i do it with triads first and typically only care to go that far, unless i am being serious about learning the song, in which case you just add extensions later.

you should learn to 'chunk' what youre hearing. i believe this is the most important skill because it removes the feeling of being overwhelmed. last week i wanted to learn a song i hate (because a girl i know loves it and i wanted to teach it to her.) the song is all piano arpeggios. i heard it and even though it was complex, i knew i could do it, and that diatonic theory would help me. (in my youth i would have tried to figure it out note by note.)

so, chunking--its just a way to take note of the larger patterns of information. collapsing a complicated-sounding arpeggio, for example, down into the concept of a single broken chord and remembering only the chord for the time being.

the first thing for this song was to IGNORE all the flash, all the arpeggios, and listen for the sonic equivalent of a "crayon drawing." i was just trying to get the chord structure. i found it in a few seconds--the song was completely diatonic and for all its complexity had about 5 chords total. once you get the roots, you can check to see if theyre following a diatonic scale and if they are, try immediately turning them into diatonic chords. many of them will work, and you will quickly find the ones that are altered. anyway, armed with that knowlege i could then turn each chord into an arpeggio. the song was complex enough that the arpeggios varied on each pass. that was another 'chunk' of information, something to note and then forget about temporarily. 1. get the chords 2. play around with it as a general arpeggio pattern just to reassure yourself youve 'got it' while 3. noting the *locations* where the arpeggios change into something else. then 4. just go and figure out each arpeggio.

maybe that sounds like a cheap trick. but so much popular music is easy to grasp in this way, because so much of it is not very complicated. when you get into things that are--like speed metal--you can still chunk the info to a degree and figure out broad patterns in it pretty easily. and at that point you can fake it pretty well. to get it exact, though, theres no shortcut. youve got to go through note by note at that point.

almost everything i learn by ear, i just "make my own" because i often dont have the patience to figure it out exactly, and what would be the point, and besides, this way people are more impressed and think you're just being inventive if you present a 'rendition' of the song that sounds reasonably accomplished. they think it's intentional, when in fact you simply didnt feel like doing the work. the song lives in the chords and spirit, so why not just do your own thing at that point? i began doing it this way years ago when i realized that A. the Tori Amos book i had didnt have the right hand piano parts in it and B. in the recording they were just too fast and quiet to make out. i made up my own flourishes for Crucify, and it just sounds like a slightly different version.

Wylde fan
11-27-2004, 06:05 PM
Thanks so much. That was an extremely helpful post. And I've heard of chunking before, but didn't know what it was. Thanks again!

Bizarro
11-27-2004, 06:17 PM
This part is not quite right:
"ear playing is great fun. i dont think you have to know much theory to do it AT ALL. in fact it will just get in the way."

Theory won't get in the way of ear training.

Los Boleros
11-27-2004, 06:33 PM
I remember when I was a wee lad and I met a guy that could play just about anything in any key. He had a remarkable sense for tonality, pitch and key and could transpose at will. I asked him how he did it. He asked me, How many songs do you know how to play?" I said a few. he said talk to me when you know a few hundred. So I did. I bought a bunch of song books of bands I liked and above each chord I wrote down the number of the chord for that key. I started to learn to play my favorite songs in different keys by just remembering the numbers. ( the progression in terms of numbers) It did't take long before I realized that progressions are not infinate! there are olny so many combinations that sound right. Most songs are exactly like other songs in different keys. Once you become familiar with different progressions, I.E. I,IV,V II,V,I I,VI,IV,I etc,etc learning songs will be a breeze.

Talk to me when you know several hundred.

Bizarro
11-27-2004, 07:27 PM
Good point Los Boleros. I play in a cover band, and most songs fit into about 5 different chord progressions with minor variations!

Except for the Eagles... they have lots of funky chord progressions that switch keys all the darn time! :)

Los Boleros
11-27-2004, 07:36 PM
Good point Los Boleros.Thanks Bizarro. Yet even a good answer is right for some and wrong for others.:p

fortymile
11-28-2004, 12:50 AM
bizarro and los boleros,

im not saying theory is useless for ear training, but maybe it can get in the way if you get obsessed with it at the outset. i'm in no way anti-theory but i do think there's a time for it and a time that sucks for it. im trying to chunk the process of learning to do this in this post for someone who is new to it. you gotta learn the thing you're trying to learn, not something else.

i would strongly encourage anyone trying to learn ear skills to not let yourself get bogged down with ideas. go ahead and get bogged down with ideas for other reasons. study theory for theory's sake. but for ear training, at the simplest level the skill youre building is tone matching. in the privacy of your head, youre learning to just follow the roots. and the roots are where its at, if you ask me. at first, i ignore everything but the roots and so at those opening stages have no need for theory. it's step one in my chunking process. it's just tone matching, and its just like shooting a basketball. it essentially is the act of tuning your A string to your 5th fret E string and knowing whether to turn that key up or down, repeated hundreds of times per song. you do it by feel, with the simple algorithm "am i too high? or am i too low? how much?"

i do use theory when learning songs by ear. discovering how diatonic it is, etc. the roman numeral stuff is like one of the top skills to have. but im not sure you have to do this at first. i dont think it has anything to do with the basic processes at all. a toddler could do the basics, in absence of any theory. countless kids learn thier basic comfort with an instrument in just this way.

so you say you can't sing, Wylde? you might not have to. most people can probably learn relative pitch, so just work on matching tones on your instrument to tones you hear.

i notice you ask 'how do you know which notes to play,' which is part of why i went down this track with 'feeling it out.' its like youre coming at ear training from a theory perspective already. i'm not trying to elevate myself by saying this, but ear recognition is the only skill i personally have that i can say with confidence is really well developed. and i have no conscious knowlege of how i do it. i dont know which notes i'm playing until afterwards, when i check. many people say this sort of thing. if you work at it enough it just becomes like riding a bicycle. you start to feel intervals and you dont think until afterwards, when you want to analyze what youre doing. so thats why i'd suggest just doing it, as often as possible, and not worrying about anything logical until you have an urge to look at it theorywise.

Los Boleros
11-28-2004, 03:53 AM
Fortymile, how many songs can you perform from memory? if it is a hundred or more I would think that that is probably the biggest contributer to you ear training and far as being able to learn new songs.
Learning pitch assosiation is great for improvising and it can help with learning songs but it is like seeing one tree at a time and missing the forest. The best thing for learning songs is progression association.

fortymile
11-28-2004, 04:03 AM
from memory? none of the songs i know are burned into memory. but i have learned far more than 100 songs by ear in my life. if i want to play them again, its sort of a process of doing the work over again. i have experienced this. things i once knew, ive forgotten, and so i just listen again and, it seems to me, i just re-do the pitch matching, always following the roots. thats just how i do it. the chords are easy to figure out once i have the roots.

although im getting to the point now where i can bypass this sometimes and just hear the full chords. for example i always hear I to iii or I to flat III.

but my point is, the root method is ultra-fast and has never failed me. i can figure out a pop song as it plays and have the root sequences by the end, then its just a quick little effort to get the chords, and it sometimes happen while im getting the roots, on the fly.

Los Boleros
11-28-2004, 04:22 AM
well you you have not memorized a hundred songs by memory or have not experimented in learning the songs that you know in any key, then this root method is all you got. Maybe this is the next step. Learn the songs that you already know by their roman numerals and memorize them this way. once you have memorized the numbers, play the songs in different keys. You ear training will explode to a new level and you will see the entire forest in a single glance rather than tree by tree. I am not talking about the ability to learn a song fast. I am talking about playing live with people you never met before and being able to play songs you never learned before on the fly. This is the kind of ear I am talking about.

GuitarLausing
11-28-2004, 02:54 PM
I think what Fortymile is trying to say is, that theory should not be used to make music, or figure out music in the first place. Theory is for analysing things you already know. You cannot describe a feeling by saying I - II7- IV - V7 - I (this is just a stupid example). A lot of music apart from mainstream music actually goes against music theory sometimes, because it sounds a bit naughty or exiting or whatever to use a flat or you know bidominants and stuff, and even though it's good to know all the basic theory, when you try to learn a song by ear and you're starting out, and all of the sudden get something that doesn't fit in the scale ( or doesn't fit with music theory or whatever), you say "What the ...? This can't be right! Am i playing this right?" And kinda get stuck because you follow the book, and doubt yourself.

I hope you get my point

And with music theroy,
They're more like guidelines anyway

Los Boleros
11-28-2004, 04:01 PM
Well, how do you do it? I'm talking about listening to a song, and knowing what notes (chords or single notes) are what, and then just being able to play it. Or even tabbing a song by ear (which is the same thing, you just write it down on paper so you can remember it).

It all seems so very impossible to me. I just can't recognize the notes, especially because I listen to metal, and it's generally quite fast. But even in slow songs I can't do it.

Please help!This is really getting off topic. This thread is not about theory. It's about learning songs by ear. as Wylde fan said,"how do you do it? Some of the people on this forum play music for a living and some don't. some people have done exactly as I have posted, learn a few hundred songs and learned them in many keys and some just havent. Those that have have the ability to hear a song once in the car then go home and play it right the first time. (maybe in a different key but technically right)

GuitarLausing
11-28-2004, 04:26 PM
can you do that?

Los Boleros
11-28-2004, 04:28 PM
can you do that? I played in a top forty band for fifteen years before playing latin music. Perhaps my limit is pop or rock music but the answer is Yes.

The trick is to become familiar with what a progression sounds like. Perfect pitch is not so important but hearing something and saying ,"Yea, thats a I,vi,IV,V or thats a ii, V7, i turn around or a II7, V, i turn around or a i,I7, iv, iidim, V7 etc. Believe me, if you practice this you will hear it too.:cool:

Wylde fan
11-28-2004, 05:21 PM
Yeah, it really is deteriorating (sp?) rather quickly insn't it...

So you are basically saying that I should learn to associate/recognize the chord progressions in a song?

I must say, most of the stuff I listen too doesn't have that recognizable chord progression...metal isn't very forgiving I guess...

Los Boleros
11-28-2004, 05:28 PM
Yeah, it really is deteriorating (sp?) rather quickly insn't it...

So you are basically saying that I should learn to associate/recognize the chord progressions in a song?

I must say, most of the stuff I listen too doesn't have that recognizable chord progression...metal isn't very forgiving I guess...Yes, start with the songs that you already know. Write down the progression, then above each chord write the roman numeral. Now learn that song in B then C then C# etc. The whole time think of the song by its numbers. This is like homework. It will pay off big time!:D

Wylde fan
11-28-2004, 05:31 PM
I'd love to do that (I have too much free-time today) but most of the songs I know (A) I hate (B) Are metal, use power chords in rather erratic fashions, I'm not entirely sure they follow a simple patter like IV, ii, II (that progression probably sounds like ****, I'm just making it up off the top of my head).

Another problem is that I don't know my keys too well...*looks around sheepishly*

fortymile
11-28-2004, 05:35 PM
los boleros, you're being a progression chauvanist.

roman numerals are important but you dont *have* to come at ear playing from that angle. it is not a law. actually, i do know the roman numeral system and after i learn a song, the first thing i do is put it into roman-numeral terms, allowing me to instantly transpose it, if i so wish. i have the ability to play things ive never heard with people i dont know, because i can visualize progressions in roman numerals. i just don't start by matching progressions.

i prefer my method, and i have to stick up for it and remind people that despite what los boleros is saying, it's not an incorrect way to do it. the root method is not "all i got." it's what i prefer. you can get so quick with it that it's as IF you're using the progression method. i, too, can get songs on first listen, with the addded benefit of not choking when i encounter a non-diatonic progression, because i'm not matching music to a limited set of templates. also, it keeps my interval recognition skills in tip-top shape--i end up exercising them continuously.

and, it is the logical place for someone new to theory to begin. why? because otherwise you just end up telling them "one day, far in the future, you will be able to do what i can do if you memorize a bunch of things and work really hard."

that may be true. but why bother with that bit of discouragement when you can instead jump on a piano and just start figuring stuff out right now?

Los Boleros
11-28-2004, 05:37 PM
If you don't like your present material then by all means look for some new stuff. Song Books are a good way. You can write down the numbers right above the chords.


P.S. Christmas is just around the corner. Why not get a good XMAS song book and learn the standards in several keys. It will come in handy for that XMAS party. hint, Kids sing in higher keys as do women. So it's good to be able to transpose on the fly.

fortymile
11-28-2004, 05:40 PM
wylde,

los boleros' method is valid, but i play metal too, and you just stumble onto weirder progressions there. you should learn both systems. progression identification as well as root movement. the root movement technique will get you transcribing metal songs this afternoon if you work at it a bit.

Los Boleros
11-28-2004, 05:43 PM
los boleros, you're being a progression chauvanist.That is funny!
However its not as hard as you make it out to be. You can keep doing what you do. That's fine for you. Anyone new that wants to develop there ear can chose your method over mine but I stand by that progression recognition can be radically improved in just one month if you systematicly appoach it and practice. What ever you do, let passion guiide you.:p

Wylde fan
11-28-2004, 05:55 PM
wylde,

los boleros' method is valid, but i play metal too, and you just stumble onto weirder progressions there. you should learn both systems. progression identification as well as root movement. the root movement technique will get you transcribing metal songs this afternoon if you work at it a bit.
Thanks to both of you :) I did intend to try both methods out, and I'll tell you when I figure out which one I like better. However, the root identification method seems better suited to metal.

Los Boleros: I have quite a few song books (I used to play the piano), and unfortunately, I hate the songs. I'm rather odd in that I hate quite a lot of music. I have respect for most music, but I only like a small amount. I'm rambling, but, that's all right isn't it :)

Thanks to both of you, and anyone who replied. Keep the discussion going, by all means!

Los Boleros
11-28-2004, 09:13 PM
Keep the discussion going, by all means!You asked for it.:) hehe Actually I would tend to think that metal is much easier than pop, Folkoric and and many other music styles. the only thing that is different about it is that it is riff oriented and tends to use alot of open notes. Thats why so many songs are in Em, Am and Dm. You could just use a Capo and that problem is solved. Remember, you are doing this as an excercise. I played metal when I was in my twenties and personally now I have become kinda bored with it. (But that is off topic and has nothing to do with this thread) sorry. The thing is that I am familiar with the feel and the sounds of metal and compared to the Funk, Salsa and Son Montuno, I think it's rather easy to learn. (grant it there are some songs of all styles that are difficult pieces there fore it is not entirely fair to generalize)

Anyway, Progression Recognition will take alittle investment to realize while Root note recognition you can use right away, I am aware of that, but with root recognition you will always be in the same place, learning songs chord by chord. Wouldn't you rather hear a song and just know that it is a vi, iii, ii, V?


??? wouldn't you?

fortymile
11-28-2004, 09:31 PM
Anyone new that wants to develop there ear can chose your method over mine but I stand by that progression recognition can be radically improved in just one month if you systematicly appoach it and practice.

this is undoubtedly true. just be aware, wylde, that you might not see results immediately, and so you absolutely have to stick with it even when you think it'll never pay off. constantly expose yourself to common progressions. get an ear training cd that deals only with progressions (i have one). myself, i am just not a 'practicer.' i'm trying to change that by finally learning my scales, but my god, it is slow going. so i have been picking up the ability to recognize progressions by ear--boleros' technique--very gradually. it's definitely a power you want to have eventually. and the root method will help with metal, especially because so much metal is riff-based and more chromatic, and you'll be dealing with a lot of power chords and single note riffs. but if you study both techniques, you will wind up strengthening your ability to hear intervals--not just in the roots, but everywhere, including within chords--and you'll also learn theory to boot, because you'll have to in order to utilize what los boleros is talking about.

i wouldn't want to be skilled in only the progression-identification method, because hearing roots is just a really cool feeling, and something that musicians who don't have a good ear are always envious of ("dude, how'd you figure that out so quick!?") BUT, this thread has made me interested again in studying progressions, so thank you los boleros. i'm going to whip out that progression CD this week.

GuitarLausing
11-28-2004, 09:39 PM
fortymile, is that a burned cd or what? Is it something you buy? Links!

Los Boleros
11-28-2004, 09:42 PM
Kool, Also too, if you are not buying song books for the songs that you are learning, then you have to learn the song somehow. Root recognition is the way. But once you have learned it, write it down and put the numbers above it. This is a bit methodical but as with all things in life, no pain, no gain. Have fun Rocking out and I do expect a letter back after you have tried this for a little while. (maybe in a month or two) Then tell me what you think.:cool:

fortymile
11-28-2004, 09:54 PM
ok here's the chord progression training book and cd i have. i've barely used it yet but it seems ok:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/082561614X/qid=1101678611/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-7321571-3129651?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

and wylde, if you want to get a quick handle on the theory side of things and what the roman numerals mean, if you dont already know, i would recommend getting these two books as well, and reading them in this order:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0879306114/qid=1101678747/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-7321571-3129651?v=glance&s=books


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0879307498/qid=1101678708/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-7321571-3129651?v=glance&s=books

rikky rooksby is just a very thorough writer. his books are jam packed. the first one really cleared up a LOT about theory and songwriting for me, and the second one is all about common chord progressions. theyre the sort of books i return to again and again.

Bizarro
11-28-2004, 10:59 PM
Quote: "Those that have have the ability to hear a song once in the car then go home and play it right the first time. "

This is very attainable with the methods already listed. The singer in my band is a budding guitarist. We'll be driving to a gig and he'll hear a song he likes and ask me how to play it. After a chorus and a verse I usually have most of it down. I can hear open strings very well, so I usually get the key right too! :)

This website is for a local instructor in my area. He is very accomplished. He has 100's of popular song chord progressions written out on this site. Everything is written in terms of scale degree (I, ii, iii, IV, etc). Go to song archives...
http://www.musicpotential.com/

Los Boleros
11-28-2004, 11:01 PM
This website is for a local instructor in my area. He is very accomplished. He has 100's of popular song chord progressions written out on this site. Everything is written in terms of scale degree (I, ii, iii, IV, etc). Go to song archives...
http://www.musicpotential.com/ (http://www.musicpotential.com/)
this is very kool Bizzaro.

DanF
11-29-2004, 03:48 AM
Everyone knows I'm a jazz dork but here's an essay by a great musician (pretty much covers much of what has been said but in one place).

Ear Training (http://www.timberens.com/essays/eartraining1.htm)

-Dan

brianhitscar
11-29-2004, 06:17 AM
I usually visualize what patterns seem to be going on while listening to the song. Then I have to sit down with the song and match out the first pitch (because I don't have perfect pitch). Anyway, after identifying the key it's usually pretty easy to figure it all out.