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MattW
12-03-2004, 01:52 PM
I've been doing a fair bit of ear training lately, but I'm not sure exactly what is the best way to make the link between the melodies I hear in my head and how to play them on guitar right first time. Any suggestions?
(I'm currently working on Solfege and a few transcriptions)

Thanks,

Matt.

phantom
12-03-2004, 01:56 PM
the melodies I hear in my head and how to play them on guitar

well the most obvious link would be your hand and fingers.
just sit down and play what you hear in your head. you'll notice when you miss a note. then try again.

rmuscat
12-03-2004, 02:18 PM
** i think ** that an added bonus to your working on solfege would be to learn the intervals on your guitar ...

it would than be awesome cause you can sing in your mind the notes in terms of intervals (due to your solfege training)... but since you also can play the intervals on guitar you lay down exactly what you have in mind.

So i assume good training would also be to take any note on the fretboard name all intervals and play each of them. Then after some practice you can shuffle intervals (and sing along why not!)

well i got to this putting in some thought i never actually tried it anyone can freely put it down if i'm wrong :rolleyes:

phantom
12-03-2004, 03:15 PM
one thing more came to my mind while driving home from work:

if you have those melodies (or should we say voices ;) ) in your head, imagine playing them on the guitar. visualize your fingers on the fretboard as they move from note to note. even add "virtuell" bendings and vibrato. think of it as you would acctualy play it.
best ideas come when no guitar is around - to me at least. so with doing the visualisation you give the melody a "face" or form on the fetboard.
you could do that with chords also.
maybe you can write them down from your mind somehow and check when you are holding the guitar if you were right, and where the mistakes are hidden.
there are intervals that are more difficult than others, you'll find out wich ones they are and you can work on them maybe more.

Los Boleros
12-04-2004, 01:34 AM
I've been doing a fair bit of ear training lately, but I'm not sure exactly what is the best way to make the link between the melodies I hear in my head and how to play them on guitar right first time. Any suggestions?
(I'm currently working on Solfege and a few transcriptions)

Thanks,

Matt.To improve the Ear for soloing, sing and play the following excercises.



Start with your number two finger on the F# on the Low E string
Play 1 2 3 4 5 4 3 2 1 5 1 in F# Major

E------------------------------------------
B------------------------------------------
G------------------------------------------
D------------------------------------------
A--------1--2--4--2--1---------4----------
E---2-4------------------4--2------2------
As you play each note, sing it as the number that it is.
1 2 3 4 5 4 3 2 1 5 1
Try to memorise each number with the sound it makes.
Use the cycle of fifths to find the next key.
C# is our next scale. Again use your number 2 finger on the first note.
E------------------------------------------
B------------------------------------------
G------------------------------------------
D---------3--4--6--4--3---------6----------------
A---4--6------------------6--4-----4------------
E------------------------------------------
As you play each note, sing it as the number that it is.
1 2 3 4 5 4 3 2 1 5 1
Try to memorise each number with the sound it makes.
Use the cycle of fifths to find the next key.
G# is our next scale. Again use your number 2 finger on the first note.
E----------------------------------------------
B-----------------------------------------------
G-----------------------------------------------
D-----------------------------------------------
A----------3--4--6--4--3---------6---------------
E----4--6------------------6--4------4----------
Do this in all 12 keys and start over. Sometimes
you will have to use a lower octave voice to be able
to sing it.

TheJeffinator
12-04-2004, 04:03 AM
My personal favorite way to approach ear training has basically three parts.

The first is the most elementary, the simplest, and after a while will come naturally. You've (hopefully) all done it before, and it's so easy you don't even realize you're doing it sometimes. Listen to a song. Identify its key. It sounds simple, but it gets really complicated when you listen to songs that have multiple tonal axes (like a lot of jazz) or lots of key changes (see: Dream Theater's A Glass Prison, with over 30 of them notated in the transcription if I'm not mistaken; the entire second disc of 6DOIT; and A Change Of Seasons. These are the first three that come to my mind, so forgive me for leaving out other examples - I'm just going for the most extreme stuff I can think of. I mean, come on, how could you not have the time of your life identifying 33 key changes in one 13 minute song? I know there are others, yes, but I'm a huge DT freak, so forgive me.) The faint of heart among you would be better off figuring other songs out first - whatever you want, be it Megadeth or gospel music or a Ravi raga (yes, I know there is not, in the western sense, a common and distinguishable I in music from those areas, but it is great fun to listen to the stuff - and despite having different note systems and tonal choices you can still learn a great deal about phrasing and note choice from it).

The second is using recordings to test yourself. This is very straightforward and very simple, though not as basic as the previous. Record a chord, scale, or single note, pause, and say the name. When you're in the car, bus, flying saucer, or wherever else you may be, it's right there and it's more helpful than you would think. I also use Jamey Aebersold's Scale Syllabus recordings to help me distinguish between different scale sounds. It's a great buy, and though you can do without it I'd strongly recommend it. You might also be interested in David Lucas Burge's Perfect Pitch and Relative Pitch courses. They're expensive as hell, and you'll probably have to order them online, but they helped me out and if you can afford them go for it. Then again, a cassette player will do just fine if that's what you dig. It's all up to you.

Finally, when I have my guitar I identify pitches by sound, which is about as straightforward as possible. Hit a note, identify it, lather, rinse, repeat. It's very similar to the second part, but if you make yourself do it faster on the guitar then it becomes a whole different ballgame, as you have to hit the note and know what it is almost instantaneously, without looking at the fretboard. This becomes essential when you're playing gigs or jamming with musicians you respect and want to impress as you can't always look at the fret markers and let that be the way you know what you're doing - identifying a wrong note and sliding into a right one well could mean life or death. If you can't stop yourself from looking at the fretboard, the solution is simple - either detune a string completely or drop the whammy bar down if you have one. I prefer the G string for both of those, as it responds well to tuning changes, so there's less work for me. Using pinch harmonics helps as well. The point is to keep yourself from relying on fret markers to identify what note you'll be playing - pretty hard to use the same charts when you're tuned to bloody W or something like that. Once you're in a different place tonally (be in tune, other than that anything goes) it's totally different trying to figure out what note you're playing. Keyboards also work well - drop something narrow and heavy onto random places and identify the pitch. For a while I even put a stack of spare change on a note with the volume very low, and went to sleep with it in the background. This basically rubbed it into my memory completely. I just hope there wasn't any subliminal advertising in the Dark Moon voicing.

There's my twisted, irrational approach. You will have to find your own way to do things, I just hope this post helps you figure out what it is. Good luck.

Rock On,
The Jeffinator

MattW
12-04-2004, 08:37 AM
Thanks everyone! Some cool ideas there. I'll give everything a try and see how it goes.
Cheers.

Matt.

GuitarLausing
12-06-2004, 12:13 AM
I just have a question here, to the whole "play it right first time" thing.
We humans learn majorly from mistakes. So is it ok to be wrong the first time (when youre starting out)?
I mean, if you fail the first time, should you skip over to something else and see if you can do THat first time, or should you try it over again until you can do it?

theox
12-06-2004, 12:16 AM
I've been doing a fair bit of ear training lately, but I'm not sure exactly what is the best way to make the link between the melodies I hear in my head and how to play them on guitar right first time. Any suggestions?
KNOW how all the intervals in two octaves SOUND and LOOK LIKE on the guitar. Know it all by heart!



(I'm currently working on Solfege and a few transcriptions)

Keep it up!

Los Boleros
12-06-2004, 02:34 AM
I just have a question here, to the whole "play it right first time" thing.
We humans learn majorly from mistakes. So is it ok to be wrong the first time (when youre starting out)?
I mean, if you fail the first time, should you skip over to something else and see if you can do THat first time, or should you try it over again until you can do it?Of course it's ok.:D Playing it right the first time, after time comes with seasoning. Not getting it right the first time does not indicate failure and you should keep on chugging away as long as the piece is not too difficult for you.

rmuscat
12-06-2004, 07:47 AM
when i get it right the first time i quit what i'm working on and move to something else....

coz most probably it's too simple!

so yes if you don't get it right the first time it's good coz you're gonna learn something as you said :)

TheJeffinator
12-06-2004, 10:29 PM
I'd say that if you don't get something right the first time, try it a second time. The first-time confusion is something that's unavoidable in a lot of situations, so don't get down if you screw up once. If you make the same mistake twice, it's a signal that you need work on one aspect of your playing. For me, playing stuff like Paganini's 5th Caprice and Moto Perpetuo really lets me know what i'm doing right and wrong, and if I'm not getting something right I know what I have to practice. That's my take on it.

To rmuscat, at least give things second chances, it's very useful as often you'll let down your guard and then you'll see you're doing something wrong. Then you'll find things you may want to work on. Unless you're playing bloody "Happy Birthday". If it really is too simple, why'd you do it?

Rock On,
The Jeffinator

rmuscat
12-06-2004, 11:09 PM
To rmuscat, at least give things second chances, it's very useful as often you'll let down your guard and then you'll see you're doing something wrong. Then you'll find things you may want to work on. Unless you're playing bloody "Happy Birthday". If it really is too simple, why'd you do it?

yes definitely you are right and i agree,

it's always hard gauging yourself and see what is too simple for your abilities, something challenging which will help you improve or something which is way beyond and can only damage your progress.

So essentially that's what i was aiming at the back of my mind, to see what fits your abilities and helps you improve.

VidKid
12-09-2004, 02:02 AM
i was just wondering, does anybody slow real fast passages down to 1/2 speed with either software or a recorder? if so, what software to you recomend? i use Slow Speed CD Transcriber or Slow Blast and looking for something else.

VidKid

rmuscat
12-09-2004, 07:32 AM
here VidKid
http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=779&highlight=transcribing+software

i knew i've see that come up somewhere.

Also, media player (last version at least) has a slow down feature.
You have to Enable Enhancements under View by selecting Show Enhancements. One of the enhancements is "Play Speed Settings".

i avoid using that stuff usually, simply for practice purposes (and 'musical' memory practice). And it leaves me with the excuse "i know it's not a 100% perfect transcribtion but it's too fast" :rolleyes: -- stress levels are high at the moment/patience is low lol

hope that link is useful anyway

VidKid
12-09-2004, 08:08 AM
rmuscat,

wow, just tried the speed setting in Media Player and it works GREAT! the quality is fine and it'll be a time saver. thanks!!! :D

is the reason for your stress is that you work at a late night party store and you're being robbed at the moment? LOL

VK

TheJeffinator
12-09-2004, 10:29 PM
I use Amazing Slow Downer on CDs and my dad's turntable on records. ASD is pretty good but locks up occasionally. I'm used to transposing licks off of records up an octave. I only use either when there's something beyond hard (DiMeola, McLaughlin, etc, when they're really going full blast) or when I'm trying to pick up harmonies or very odd chords.

Rock On,
The Jeffinator

leegordo
01-09-2008, 06:07 PM
leegordo here, I don't under stand what One can possibly stand to gain by 'ear training'.What is 'ear training'?
Training the ear to do what?
Please don't tell me that it will help one recognise chords and/or harmonies,where previously they could not

JazzMick
01-09-2008, 06:28 PM
leegordo i can stand it no more. you are a menace to this forum.

Ear training or developing aural skills is something that takes time for most people. Fortunately some are blessed with quite natural abilities when it comes to transcribing music. For most though, critical listening is what is required to develop the ears.

For you to try and imply that this type of practice serves no purpose is misleading. I think we have even been through this on a previous thread.

Please don't anyone think that critical listening wont develop your ears.. it will and does. Ask any REAL musician. Clearly leegrodo is not any type of credible musician and should not be paid any attention.

Oh yes I remember now.. you spoke of your students not being able to develop improvisational abilities. I also remember you saying you never actually taught them anything about the subject. Particularly aural training.

It would be best for the musical world if you regained your honor the old Japanese way.

Hari Kiri.

Blutwulf
01-09-2008, 08:19 PM
Leegordo, "ear training" is not little barbell sets for the ear or sending the little guys out on a quarter-mile sprint.

Ear training is, in essence, "training" in the sense that one consciously works at recognition of musical theory elements within the music they are hearing. Instead of simply hearing music, one endeavors to isolate within it what is going on, the interplay of meter, chord, melody, style, etc.

From the simplest 12-bar blues standards to the most complex Rachmaninov piano pieces, musicians of any skill level will do it out of curiosity at the very least. Ear training is going beyond a simple and casual approach and simply applying oneself to a more serious degree. Giving a damn and trying to learn, as it were.

While I question the gain in drilling to the level of identifying isolated pitches, one cannot argue the value and merits of critically listening to music if one wants to produce music themselves. Recognizing chord progressions and the relationship of the melodic line to them is part and parcel of being a musician.