Cliffs of Dover... Oh Yea...

[JohnJumper]

I am working on Eric Johnson's "Cliffs of Dover". This is the third time I am attempting this. This time I am determined to make it through the whole thing. I have got the intro down and am starting in on the main "shuffle" part. Last time I started trying to learn this (May 2004) I got 2/3 the way through and dropped off working on it. Since then I have been working on speed exercises continually and am now making another attempt.

- Anyone out there learn this solo all the way through?
- Anyone have any suggestions?

[Bizarro]

Practice. Play it every day for about a year. It's going to take some time.

[JohnJumper]

Ok! by measures I am 82% the way through memorizing this peice! I have a few more measure of the "solo" section to memorize and then it is that last page ... and that looks like some repeated stuff maybe changed around a little --- I think I might make it this time! Then it will probably take me a year to get it close to the speed Eric Johnson plays it - notice I said close. But I think the first step is memorizing the whole thing so I can play it without looking at the music...

I tell you one thing - this is a nicely written peice - Was this written out or improvised in the studio? Anyone know? Sections of it in the solo section are so melodic it is like a classical peice...

I have noticed that I have needed to change some of the fingerings from the transcription. I have not changed the notes but I have changed the fingerings to fit into patterns that I already know and that has seemed to help me move faster on the memorizing. I am working from a Guitar School transcription. I think that is probably ok (to change the fingerings) because I have some other transcriptions that are different in the fingering area but not the notes...

Any thoughts on that?

[Buebo]

Hey I started to learn that song too some time ago, and made it till bout half of the main solo, since then I haven't really looked at it anymore.
I know that the main solo is a composite of a couple of more or less improvised leads EJ recorded, and he took out some parts of each of these and created the solo you hear on the record from that.
About the fingerings, EJ is quite picky and plays the note which have the best timbre according to him. He also advices to play things in as many ways as possible, so why not do that yourself :).

It is still one of my favorite songs. (no, not instrumentals but songs in general!)
Greets,
Buebo.

[JohnJumper]

100% memorized!!!! Done!!! Fi-nea-toe!! The whole inchillada!! Bada-bing-bada-boom!!! The Whole Schemolee!!! May be slow in some parts but it is all in the nogin!! Now the cleaning and smoothing process can begin!!! :D

[Bizarro]

It's ok to change the fingerings to fit your style... Good luck with practicing this beast of a song. I learned it *note for note* in the late 80's, but I can't remember too much of it anymore :(

[satch_master]

can u guys relax, eric johnson. i got the song running now and its not that technical , well it is a bit but after learning malmsteen songs its not that bad. my fingers can handle the speed and the memorisation may take a bit of work but apart from that im just used to it now. the speed is no prob really, ive seen alot faster and the melody repeats. whats scales he using? dorian modes? dont learn songs note for note either.

[Buebo]

Ehm what is your point? I'm pretty sure everyone posted here has heard and seen faster songs and probably played faster songs as well. Besides that not everyone concentrates on speed or even practises speed, but play because they want to make beautifull music. If a song happens to have fast runs in it, not everybody has the experience to whip it out using experience gained from playing fast things. And what do you feel is so wrong about learning songs note for note? With some songs I like to try and play them the way the writer intended them.
Bit confused by your post, but feel free to elaborate!

Greets, Buebo.

[Bizarro]

Buebo, I couldn't agree more! :)

[AyKay]

I also play it, though except for the intro I transcribed it by ear, so I may use a few different fingerings, but imho they're easier than how I've seen some people play it. Also, I have a backing track for it if you'd like.

the key is on the faster parts - just start slow and get up to speed later, just take your time. If you've noticed, the entire song is really only two themes.

one more thing - I'm a classical guitarist mostly, so I don't really have time to go through and learn to alternate pick the entire thing, except that lick in the intro after the pentatonics, so I use legato and sweeping to shift the work more towards my left hand, ie :
from the solo
------------------15-19~--19p15-17p15------------------------------
-----------15h17------------------------17p15----17p15--------------
--------16-------------------------------------17--------17-14-------
-14h17---------------------------------------------------------17-14-
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


--------------14----------------------------15p14----------------
-17-15-15-17----15-------------------------------15--------------
---------------------16-14----16-14-----------------14-----------
----------------------------17-------17-14-------------17p14-----
--------------------------------------------------------------17---
-------------------------------------------------------------------

also, here's how I play the very first pentatonic bit in the intro ( I saw the tab for this somewhere, but it had all kinds of unneccessary shifting )

---15^-15-12-14---12--------12------------------12-15p14p12----14p12
-----------------15---12-15^----15-12-----12h15--------------15------
----------------------------------------14^-----------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-0-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------12------12---
-15-12-15-(17)-15-(17)-15-12-----(15p12)
-------------------------------14^--------14^p12
---------------------------------------------------14
-
-


hope this helps
-ay

edit : yeah, it's not technical, but alot of people dont give it a swingin feel :p

[GuitarLausing]

can u guys relax, eric johnson. i got the song running now and its not that technical , well it is a bit but after learning malmsteen songs its not that bad. my fingers can handle the speed and the memorisation may take a bit of work but apart from that im just used to it now. the speed is no prob really, ive seen alot faster and the melody repeats.
Its not a contest, you know... Take your selfglorification elsewhere



To JohnJumper Congrats with finally doing it. If i had been into something for the better part of a year, i'd be proud!

Its funny, I listened to that song again just yesterday. It really kicks ***!

[JohnJumper]

Thanks for the encouragement from those of you that gave it! It may not be "that" technical but it is above my abilities to play it up to speed right now so it is a major accomplishment for me...I have been working on my speed so I can play this easier and I think it helped a lot keep me focused on those exercises.

I think the memorization was a large part of the effort and actually I got some great advise in another thread how to get better at that...

http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6915

I admit I am no Malmsteen but I am NOW on the list of (countless) people who have worked through "Cliffs of Dover" and that means something to me and motivates me to keep going and get it to a performance level.

I think learning it note by note has also given me a lot of insite in how it is constructed rather than just playing an approximate version. I have learned a lot of licks I can probably incorparate into my impovising at some point. Additionally, I think I have learned a lot about working through a complex peice. For me, at least, it is hard to keep moving through a peice in such detail - each day pushing forward through 4 or 5 measures at a time (at times 1 or 2 in the real hard section - hard for me).

I do have the theory knowledge needed to recognize the modes and reasons for the lick structures (apegiated chords, scalar runs) and as I get it up to speed and try to incorparate the licks into my soloing I will look at that.

[Bizarro]

I think anyone that can play Cliffs of Dover has accomplished a great deal on the guitar. The tone is just as important as hitting all the right notes!

It is a beautiful song that is very inspirational to me. There are certain parts that still give me goose bumps and I've been listening and/or playing it ever since it first came out. :)

[JohnJumper]

I went and saw Eric Johnson last night at the Red River Saloon here in Colorado Springs --- :eek: --- "I'm not worthy!!!!" I had never seen him live and this was a small club with probably 100 people in the room. So...I could see really well how he was playing the whole thing...It was amazing!!!

Holy Cow is he great!!! I was just memzmorized. When he played Cliffs of Dover it was just amazing -- He played probably a 4-5 minute intro to it that just blew me away!!

Anyone that says he is not technical enough doesn't have a clue!!! He would go into these solos and just jam at blindning speed!!! I can't even describe how amazing it was!!

[Mateo150]

Yeah, If you can learn Eric Johnson in a flash, you should be onstage and making millions. Its quite a mark of disrespect. Do learn songs note for note (tone, dynamics, etc.), people who don't learn them note for note usually are posers who say, "aw, close enough", when really they are nowhere close in the most important factors, such as tone. Just because your fingers go to the right fret is only half the battle, tone, tone, tone. A lot of people can play Stevie Ray Vaughn songs, but how many can get that tone?

As for memorization, I kinda suck at it. Heard reading music helps with it. I review pieces a lot so I don't forget them. I've heard the song before, can't recall it now. But I think its a highly orchestrated piece, which means Its probably ABA or some similar classical format. Haven't taken a lesson in years, but when I did for classical piano, I was told to try to memorize the piece into sections, and the sections ought to be divided first by harmony, then feel, the ups and downs of the passages (er by the note patterns i guess). Don't know how these classical guys do it, but they can remember tons of full length pieces note for note.

[satch_master]

geez if i knew i was gonna start a ****en thing out of it i might as well shut up. and tone? tone is crap, tone is not skill or means ur a great geetarist , tone is something that you buy with money from a music store and loads of cash.

[Bizarro]

Tone is 95% the guitar player, and 5% gear. Ever hear Blues Saraceno play a $99 Squier Strat through a $100 amp? It is amazing.

I suggest not pursuing the tone = $$ idea.

[Mateo150]

Never heard that before, I wish I could buy tone with money. How much to get SRV's tone?

[satch_master]

so what u reckon SRV had some sort of magic in his fingers that gave him a "good tone". thats a load of rubbish. hes just a human being with the right gear and amp settings, sometimes it takes a while to find a good tone but your gear is primary. yeah your delevery of the notes will make a difference but a **** guitar will most probably sound like the crap it is.

if theres something the matter with me and im an idiot and i dont know anything just tell me.

so anyone can go and buy a fender strat and a tube fender amp or whatver gear they want and still wont be able to get "SRV tone"?

[rmuscat]

chill out satch dude ... i know you meant it in a positive way.

did you read through erics' article?
http://www.ibreathemusic.com/article/120

you might get an alternative perspective to it or you might agree less. But at least you'd have attempted to see the whole picture ;)

[The Bash]

"so anyone can go and buy a fender strat and a tube fender amp or whatver gear they want and still wont be able to get "SRV tone"?"

That's right.
Tone comes from the player.
Gear is icing on the cake.
You'd still reconize SRV even if he was using a Les Paul.
Gary Moores played thur about everything you could imagine and
it still sounds like Gary Moore.
I got an old Lizzy DVD with Gary from late 70's and he playing through
something like a melody maker.
Good Gear ain't gonna hurt your tone but it sure ain't gonna make it.
That's like saying I could sound just like Steven Tyler if I could only sing thur his mic and set up. There ain't no doubt I'd love his mic/monitors/effects etc as opposed to what we gig through (which ain't bad), and I'd probably even sound a little better but it ain't gonna change the fact I ain't a great singer and certainly ain't gonna make me sound like him.

[MattW]

Satch 'Master', I'm not entirely sure what point you are trying to make, you just sound very bitter. What was your post going to achieve? It wasn't informative and it wasn't helping the first or any of the following posters. One peice of advice...if you keep kidding yourself that your tone is determined entirely by your equipment then that is severely to your detriment, tone is more than just the basic sound that comes from your gear, it's in your fingers, the way you pick, your vibrato and even how you fret the note, real tone is what seperates the average guitarists from the great ones.

[phantom]

satch..
i guess you simply don't know the difference between a good guitar-sound and a good tone.
the sound is determined by the gear.
the tone by a lot of factors like
how you pick,
how you fret the string,
the dynamics you put in your playing,
how you are able to transfer emotion in a played note
how convinced you are playing something (i just sucks to hear someone playing and acctually hear that he is not confident in what he does..),
experience,
control..

and a few other things.

as long as you don't accept these facts you won't the good guitarist you are trying to be so hard.

[Mateo150]

Does anyone listen to good old blues and jazz anymore? I joined the forum a little while ago, seems most people want to play shred stuff, i.e. Steve Vai, Satch, Malmsteen, Eric J. I've heard them before (Satch is my fav.) and its all very impressive, but what about John Scofield, Santana, Pat Martino, etc. Steve Vai is great, but when he plays perfect shred runs... wheres the phrasing? I understand that the other artists I'm talking about rely more on tone, phrasing, and playing from the heart rather than riffing from the hip, but jeez, anyone ever try to play Albert King licks and copy that "tone". Its not easy. Anyway, I'd like to see more posts about slower phrasings, tone, and these other more mysterious issues. Anyway, I have a question in this... should put it in another post....

Anyone know what gear Scofield uses? I want to know how he makes that one sound... one of his signiture phrases, can be heard on Green Tea, If you've heard it you know what I'm talking about.

[Bizarro]

Doesn't Scofield use a 335 or some big guitar like that? He's quite a monster guitarist. If I had 1/10 of the tastiness of his playing I'd be a happy man! :)

The Bash and MattW make very good points regarding tone.

True story time! Back in '89 or '90 I was in Minneapolis going to a Vinnie Moore concert with 2 other shredder friends. We stopped at a friends house in Mpls and he was also a shredder dude. We took turns jamming with 2 Ibanez guitars through an ADA MP1 rackmount setup. We all sounded completely different. I pick REALLY hard and I have extremely strong hands from doing farmwork. The two "city boys" had a much lighter touch and they had incredible finesse. The other guy was a great chicken-picker and he had a totally different picking sound. Needless to say our own tone came through loud and clear, even with the exact same gear.

[satch_master]

ok i havent certainly learnt abit , and i am ignorant person but anyways i think this thread has gone just a little bit off topic do you think?

[JohnJumper]

Yes...I had no intention of creating an argument...Sorry Satch if I offended you that was not my intent.