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DanF
12-07-2004, 06:11 PM
Hey Everyone,

I've been thinking about posting something like this for awhile, I think that on the internet there is a misconception about playing guitar that I've never seen addressed. That is, I see people ask "How long will it take until I'm good [don't suck..etc.]?"

Well as funny as it sounds I spoke with a couple of guys in town that I know who are very good players and I kind of feel like I'm approaching it -- I feel like I've got all the pieces together now and if I can just put them together I'll be rocking. By the way, when I say "play well" I mean with good time/feel, correct notes, able to execute relatively difficult passages well, able to pick up music by ear -- the whole package.

So how long did it take? The consensus among us was that it's about 3.5 or 4 years. I see these responses like "You can learn to play in 6 months but it will take a lifetime to master" that is A) Using a very generous definition of playing and B) An utterly useless generality ("a lifetime"). Your experience may be different and I encourage other good players to chime in but I want this to be a shot of confidence for you guys starting out etc. It gets better but you have to have faith and realize that it takes a long time.

I'll finish with one of my favorite old sayings: "A long perilous road tests the horse, a long perilous journey tests the man."

Good luck guys!

-Dan

ignorant
12-07-2004, 07:52 PM
As I have been attempting to teach myself for almost 20 years and have not gotten above beginner I thank you for this thread. I should say that I have only taken guitar seriously in the last 2 years. I think it depends on the drive you have to learn the guitar. If you want it you can get it much quicker. Of course if you have a teacher it accelerates the process. Also playing with others that are better than you. I have not had the luxury of either. I have tried to find a teacher recently and was turned down. I live in a rural area and teachers are hard to come by. So the jist of this is that If you want it bad enough you can get it. The time it takes is up to you. IMHO

ignorant
12-07-2004, 08:37 PM
Did my last post sound as though I was looking for sympathy? If so it was not my intention. As I read it I began to wonder. My situation is a result of many things. It is not to be taken as normal. I am working harder than ever to become a better guitarist. And I know it will come. Sorry if anyone misunderstood. I love this place!

curiousgeorge
12-07-2004, 11:01 PM
The length of time to "get good" is relative to the amount of time glued to the instrument as well as the level of natural physical and mental talent. I know guys that were excellent after a couple of years. They could play any Satch or Metallica tune note-for-note and could improvise like crazy. This is when they were teenagers back in high school, too! It took me a little longer, even though I spent the same hours after school practicing my *** off and playing in bands all over the place. I think a lot of guitar players think too far ahead when they play a passage. They tend to ready themeselves for the next set of licks before concentrating on making the notes "in the now" count. You've got to play in the moment and that is one of the most important things I've learned. It's good to be aware of what's coming up, but you should be very aware of every note under your fingers as well.

Los Boleros
12-08-2004, 12:08 AM
This sounds like a good question for Voodoo Child!;)

The reason you see the types of answers like "it takes a lifre time to ......" is that the closer we get, the farther we want to go. When you first pick up a guitar you think short term goals. If I could just learn Purple Haze i would be happy Obviously when you get there, there is always a new obstacle or should I say challenge. Some times our progress is better gaged by the people around us. The real answer to this question lies in your heart. How badly do you want it. Some people just kinda pick up the guitar not really wanting it that badly but the more they learn, the more addicting it gets. Always raising the bar. If you really want it bad, then practicing should be pretty fun in itself. The bottom line is that we should try and set our oun personal goals and before setting new goals, ask yourself, did I get to this goal yet. If you did, (and you probably did) Then you are getting pretty good;)

Bizarro
12-08-2004, 05:11 AM
There are many factors. I separate it into two completely different topics.
1. How long does it take to play proficiently?
This depends. I was a rocker starting out, and I was able to gain chops in about 6 months to a year. After that I could tackle most Metallica, Van Halen, Ozzy, etc, with reasonable results. Not perfect, but not bad either. Learning classical, fingerstyle, and jazz chord work took a lot longer! :eek:
2. How long does it take to become a musician?
Depends, I was always musically inclined as a kid, from the time I was a baby if you believe my mom! :) I was good at some aspects and horrible at others. Ear training takes a great deal of time to develop.

Chops come and go. Right now they're not so great for speed metal, but my chord work and bluesy styles (SRV) are solid. The musician part of me continues to grow even if my chops are rusty, which is probably true for everyone.

ashc
12-08-2004, 11:56 AM
It's so incredibly subjective and personal and thats why most people are vague in their answers.

If after 6 months I could have heard myself now 4 years on I would have thought I was pretty good, but in real life I know that I'm not. Thats partly because my perception changed about what is good and partly because if I start to think I'm any good I'm going to stop getting better. With a few gaps filled in and a lot of tidying up I might stretch to a "proficient" after those 4.5 years - but I think that would be generous (very much depends on what style you are striving to play). I think it would have gone a lot quicker if I was half my age. I have little trouble with the mental/theory/organisation aspects but the physical side is possibly tougher to train in old hands.

As already said by others talent and time invested are the main components in any activity (guitar, sports, work you name). Time invested however is useless if used incorrectly through lack of organised and correct practice, lack of discipline or with incorrect technique. The latter, as I have learn't can, by itself, burn time in a major way, and this is the significant peril for the autodidact.

I'm in the process of finding a teacher, at 36 I don't have time to waste anymore!

All in all. Everyones mileage will vary.

oRg
12-08-2004, 03:01 PM
Playiing good is entirely subjective. Some people are happy just being able to play power-chords so they can learn the next punk song that comes out on the radio while other practice every day in order to play classical, neoclassical, shred, and jazz fusion music correctly. This is speaking in terms of technique of course. As far as learning music theory...it all depends on where you want to go. If you just want to play punk music then there'd be no sense in learning dodecaphonics, chromatics passing tones, chords (outside of the powerchords), or scales/modes. Maybe learn a little bit about chord progression off of a friend or the internet and leave it at that. Then you just practice on picking hard and heavy with very little attention on speed. For those aspiring to create music like jazz, neoclassical, and classical they could be studying their instruments for years and years to come perfecting various techniques and learning countless amounts of music theory.

UKRuss
12-08-2004, 03:38 PM
I'm not into time, man.

But if you had to press me I'd make two comments.

1) I always had more time to play guitar and so I could be much better now than I am, but I have a life to lead and a career in another area and a family and all those things take a considerable amount of my waking moments too.

2) I will always be a guitar player and I will always love music and as I gert older I love more variety in the music I wnat to listen to and therefore I will always be a student of music and so I will always be learning.

If that takes a lifetime then so be it. Perhaps I will run out of time befoer I get where I wanted to be, but I still had a shedload of fun getting there.

I hope Voodoo Child is off practicing, we haven't seen him for a while...

ashc
12-08-2004, 04:01 PM
Russ - yep, good points, must be in the Surrey water :D Well it was for beck, Clapton and Page anyways...

There are lots of things to do in life apart from this addictive piece of wood and wire. And it's all about enjoying it; "to journey not to arrive" as they say. If I "arrive" on guitar then that'll probably be me finished with it :D

phantom
12-08-2004, 04:01 PM
I hope Voodoo Child is off practicing, we haven't seen him for a while...

yeah and i haven't seen joey dahlia for a while as well. wonder what he is doing... maybe he got caught. :eek:
..sorry

rmuscat
12-08-2004, 04:07 PM
relax guys ... VoodooChild was ill but he was around some time ago ... practicing (pm'd him) ...

joey dahlia i think he's after favored nations again! UNREAL ...

forgottenking2
12-08-2004, 05:34 PM
I started in '97. And I'd like to think of myself as a work in progress (I'd hate to think this is how I would end up :p ) I have heard some of the stuff I played 6 months ago and I have improved a great deal, and I just can't listen to the tapes I recorded 2 years ago which at the time thought were my greatest recordings ever :) so it's kind of true the "lifetime statement thingy", I also agree with Bizarro's conclussions, SPECIALLY "chops come and go" that's totally true hence the importance of putting enphasis on musicianship more than raw technique.

But back to the question... the best anwer would be a series of questions that would help you indentify the personality of the one who's asking and then you can give him an estimate. "It deppends, Are you a perfectionist? How far do you want to take the guitar?" Are good ones and once you get to hear and understand the student's goals it's pretty easy to define an estimate "If you practice hard you'll get there in about..."

As a teacher I get asked that a lot and specially with parents that's one of the most crucial questions that will define weather you're getting their business or not. so one's gotta be careful with that one.

My 2 cents

Regards,

DanF
12-08-2004, 06:40 PM
Hmm...

Well, I think you guys have drifted even further off into generality than the initial example. First when I made my comments about "a lifetime is too general" I didn't mean that that's not true -- you can seemingly study guitar forever and always get better (Guys like Segovia and Jim Hall etc.) What I was trying to get across is that I have rarely (again in my town but this time I'm going to include open mic night performers), rarely ever seen a guitar player that sounded any good that had been playing for less than 3 years. So if you are holding yourself up to what, in my experience, are unrealistic expectations rest easy -- it does take a long time.

I need to go dig it up but interestingly enough natural talent has more to do with skill acquisition than amount of time spent practicing (This is why you don't see many average looking NFL players, it takes lots of practice to become good -- and you can be a very good football player just by training a lot, but at a certain level genetics will be the bar that keeps you at 90% of NFL level etc.) I've seen that in a peer-reviewed medical medical journal but I don't know if I'll be able to find it again.

So not to stroke anyone's ego but it could be that some of you guys on here that are always talking about how good you are at 2 years, 1.5 years etc could have a better natural gift for music than I do.

So I guess those are my caveats and as I tried to express early, I'm not writing this to apply some weird timeline to everyone's playing level, rather I am trying to encourage newer players that many people (that end up being great players) take quite some time to get there, so don't get down on yourself.

-Dan

Darron
12-08-2004, 07:30 PM
Ok, this is my first ever post on ibreath, so I hope I make some sense here.

I've got a slightly different take on this. Speaking as someone who's spent a few years trying to learn and isn't even past beginner stage (I can't play even one song all the way through yet!) I don't think it has anything to do with an amount of time. I think an alternative way to ask that question is: "how much effort does it take to get good?"

I've wasted the last few years on the guitar, expecting my tutor to 'teach' me how to play (thinking, that’s how it works - you spend the time, you get the reward, right?). It's only recently that I've realised it is the effort I spend 'learning', rather than the time I spend 'being taught', that gets results!

If you are committed to this, it's your responsibility to learn how to play – not your tutors job to teach you (I hope you can see what I mean by this, tutors are great when they're good). Instead, they’re there simply to show you what to learn and in what order (as it turns out, I don't feel mine was very good at this).

If you could quantify effort into a handy unit of measurement and be able to say something like "learning how all the modes fit together along the fret board so you can play in the key of C at any point on the neck, takes 18 (totally random number) units of effort." Then you know if you can manage 4 units a day/week/month then you can guage how 'long' things will take you.

Life is FAAAAAR from that simple, of cause ;)

I guess, in a nut shell, the point I'm trying to make is: It's all about what you have to do to get good that’s important, how long that will take you is entirely dependant on how much effort you can/will put in.

In order to pull it back to DanF's original point a little, what specifically do I have to do/learn in order to get good? (How long that will take me I guess I'll figure out for myself).

Again, speaking as someone who is relatively new to the guitar, this is what has been hampering me for so long! I know what my end result is intended to be (a "good" player), and I'm willing to put in what ever effort I can, when I can but I have no idea of what is actually involved in getting there, what are the steps/stages? I guess I need some sort of road map so that I can see where my next stop is. Even if it is just some sort of definitive list of all things you could learn (in some sort of order) that would be cool.

Anyway, I've waffled on for far to long and all I'm doing now is venting my frustration, and this aint the place for that sort of thing.

Like I say, this is my first post so I hope it came across ok.

Daz

DanF
12-08-2004, 10:52 PM
That is an excellent observation/distinction Darron, welcome to iBreathe :)

-Dan

UKRuss
12-09-2004, 02:07 PM
I'm glad to hear the chaps (Voodoo and Joey) are ok.


Actually, I'm mostly reeling backwards in a stunned way (much like Homer does when he catches Apu having an affair) that our resident Jorge Maldonado only started playing in '97!!!!

Is that right? '97! that's 1997?

Christ, I started playing in '84...I really shouold be better than I am now.

I shall go home and self-flagellate until improvement is seen.

ReinierK
12-09-2004, 02:49 PM
I think it's also important not to get restricted by guitar playing only.
I mean this:
not to brag, but I'm a bit above avarege with almost everything that involes either of the 7 parts of intelligance. Thereby I mean that by 'nature' I have certein affinities. Like with language, music, math, sports etc.

What I'm pointing at is that you might be the greatest guitarist in the world, but sacrifice everything else for it, while I prefer (and is says: I) to do as much as I can.

I seriously want to become a musician, so I'm putting a lot of time in it, but I also like board games which I play a lot and to be social etc.

Hope you see my point! And in the end, it's all about what you really want. In my heart, I want to write classical music just like mozart etc withou instruments, just from thought to paper, then execute that on guitar and vocals and mix some heavy riffs in it... So I know what to work on now and I try to achieve that!

Sorry to be a bit off topic, just wanted to make a small point ;)

Bizarro
12-10-2004, 02:30 AM
Different folks do start with different skills. That's very true, and as a teacher in the past it was very apparent. Where people start is one thing, and where they end up mainly has to do with effort, not only talent or innate abilities.

I know people with great ears and great dexterity that are not very good guitar players! :) They don't work hard enough to be as good as they could be.

With good natural dexterity and extreme dedication a person can reach incredible heights in terms of technique in a few short years.

forgottenking2
12-10-2004, 04:39 PM
Sheer hard work is the only way I know. I have never had any "natural gifts" on anything nor when I did martial arts or music... well maybe my only gift is the aparent facility I have with science :) . I know I must have been a music teacher's nightmare, no natural dexterity, totally unable to recognize pitches (I couldn't even carry a tune singing :p ) , HORRIBLE sense of rhythm (I've never been able to dance either :D ) The only thing that has kept me going is determination and the fact that I had such an ego that my reasoning was "if so and so can do it then I can too". But that has helped me understand students when they start, I have still to meet a student that's as bad as I was when I started, so I can say totally honestly "You're doing a lot better than me when I started, you just need to practice this and that". So if anything it makes me a better teacher :D

UKRuss
12-10-2004, 11:59 PM
Well, I for one am impressed as hell. Your hard work has paid off and you can rest assured your articles have given me much food for thought.

I am only now left to be embarassed that I didnt have the drive to work as hard myself.

But I ain't given up learning yet!

Angus_Poser
01-05-2005, 05:45 PM
it can take a long time, I've been playing for a year and getting shown up by people who have been playing about half as long as i have, its a matter of practice.

mattblack850
01-05-2005, 06:14 PM
There's a fairly simple equation to this:-

You get out of it what you put in!!!!
Plus or minus a certain amount of natural musicality and dexterousness!!

Some have a natural ear, some have naturally spreadable fingers, some of us don't. But certain aspects CAN BE LEARNED, no matter how hard they seem in the beginning. I have larger than average hands (being 6' 6", what'd you expect!), but I know people that can stretch way farther on the fretboard, in the same way that I know people that can hammer-on/off a lot faster than me, but with perciverence and practice I am getting not just quicker but more accurate, which was half the battle, than I was.Hope this gives a bit of encouragement.:D :D :D

syrian_vai
01-05-2005, 06:47 PM
greetings Every1 , and happy new year to all of u my brothers in arm , though this greeting is late , but due to my TERRIBLE med exams , i have been away for a while , so everyone , i missed u as hell ( rumscat , phantom , los boleros , Len , eric V ........ just to name a few )

i have stole some moments away from studying ( got a real hard pathophysiology test coming on sunday , so please wish me luck guys - i really need it :D )

reading this thread , and ur posts , i was so frustrated , everyone here is talking abt practice , and how much amount u put in to take the best results !! arent we forgetting something here ???

its true that we must practice for a long time in order to become good players , but ............... the problem is : what should we practice ??

considering the huge amounts of theory and techs out there ,i say its like a maze ....

lets say someone wants to master yngwie's style , he must practice on scales and sweeps and so on , but , learning neoclassical theory is really not easy , it means , u should study some classical theory ( which ithink is almost impossible lol )

so the question is : if one wanted a road map to get to his goals , how is he supposed to find it or to create it , if he theres tons of stuff out there ( and our average rate of life is only 50 years after all )

Take care all of u and - again - happy new year brothers

tinsmith
01-07-2005, 03:44 AM
The answer to the question you have asked is...................a lifetime.

steffyweffy777
07-09-2007, 12:09 PM
...
What I'm pointing at is that you might be the greatest guitarist in the world, but sacrifice everything else for it, while I prefer (and is says: I) to do as much as I can......
....In my heart, I want to write classical music just like mozart etc without instruments, just from thought to paper,.......

Yeah I am the same, i want to just be able to write it to paper, as without trying to brag, I was considered a musical genius as a kid, as learned the accordion, which my parents wanted, and my teacher (to this day) says he never met anyoen with my ear and speed of learning, and said I had the talent of 'the masters' but not the perseverance they had.
i told him i didn't want to be an accoridonist, and he still says I (I'm 35 haven't played it since was a kid) could pick it up again and in a few eyars probably still be the best, even if ti meant alot of hard work playing all day....
he says I used to learn 4 or 5 times fatser than others, ...stuff in a lesson others had trouble learning in a month, and well since I gave up as didn't wanna be a accodionist but wanted a guitar and to rock out, well my parents made sure i never got a guitar or lessons, and I taught myself piano by ear, though only melodies never chords, and well then they gave the piano to mys sister when she got married, etc......

To cut a long story short, I am 35, and have suffered (as a result from going into the wrong careers and studying stuff I shouldn't have which wasn't as natural to me) from O.C.D (what they say Mozart , Howard Hughes, Nikola Tesla etc, had) and which gives peopel a natural gift for details and perfection and loads of intrusive thoughts and ideas.....

This explains alot, and well being in the only family who would neglect and ignore the kind of talents I had, I basically started to play guitar with the idea I would never get anywhere with it have a career in it, at age 21, and well, i must say i learn it on my own by ear, trial and error, soi just could know which note was in my head and get to it 8 out of 10 times on guitar.

I had a few lessons and will ask everyone a question "is it better to have a teacher or not, or do you learn faster with a teacher or not ?"
I ask as some good teacher a few years ago told me I was too old and kept being a smarmy person when he saw I was learning stuff he taugth me very fast....and well alot of the time there were bits which he did help with, but I think working froma good book if you have a natural knakc of doing things, could be as good or better than a teacher, as Van Halen and Nuno bettencourt taught themselves, and well I am sure if they got lessosn they could have lost their own individual way of doing stuff !?

I must say lessons are good if you need some kick in the butt to get you organised and point you in the right way, but if you are motivated and intelligent, I am sure if you have natural ability you can tecah yourself faster possibly with books as teacehrs which are good will move you ahead sure, but a bad teacher who may just work you through books and not care too much, could hold you back !

I don't know, anyone have any clues the teachers, the self taught etc ?

I must say i studied design and dd a degree, and clinical depression a serve OCD where I even stopped playing guitar and listening to rock for years, and well it's all nuts but the point I am making is that my lacking of musical expression and doing a career which robbed my time and made me stress, brought my OCD to a severe crippling state which meant I lost many years in a haze, and not living life.

I possibly coudl ahve been a hendrix or van halen as i heard and still 'hear' (like a radio) music in my head, and amazing classical and rock music and lyrics enter my head, abit like being channelled stuff from some demon or God.....very odd....but yeah, Mozart and ther apperently heard the same, and so i get upset as what i did learn in sporadic tijmes on guitar actually fooled people into thinking I had played for eyars but infact I would probably say i had very little tiem in actually learning it....

even got some lessosn in piano lately and the woman was telling me I could have been this or that as she reckoned I have perfect pitch and stuff....
This is demopralising as I don't want to be told I could have been a great composer but that now I was 'too old' etc, as it's bull****, and the classical music approach is good but sometimes they can hold you back by ruining your confidence and enthusiasm.....sure I may ahve been this or that if I did it when i wanted to, but the point it tiem has gone, and why can't I do it now, I mean if I have talent I can catch up people who were average and studied the long hard road to compensate, so I get annoyed with this stuff, which is also why when i decided to get guitar lessons 5 years ago, and started to learn classical songs in a few weeks, the teacher was abit jealous and said it couldn't have taken me so little time to learn, but I applied myself and worked hard at it......then he would make smug comments when i asked if I could be a songwriter, and well he was 10 years younger than me and laughed and well, this caused me to get upset.

I didn't take anymore lesosns and even stoped learning fo the last 4 years, and just improvised and did bits here and there, but guess I got into a deep depression of 'what could have been tried' and how good I would have been as a kid, etc, and how many albums i could have written by now, with all the 'free' music I 'hear' in my head,....and well guess it's my latent OCD, but the last 5 years I have had another breakdown and got to the point where I even stopped appreciating anything and would turn music I loved off, as it reminded me of a hope and love I 'could never have' or 'lost'....

I guess the problem is nobody knows my true identity so I am not boasting as nobody knows me, so will safely say for the purpose of everyone's benefit out there, that i am a musical genius, and could have been like Mozart or hendrix given the right opportunities, infact I was more a classical type in the way i hear entire pieces when I go to bed and enjoy 'listening' to it, it's like my carving for good music when the CD player isn't on, emans my head conjurs it up subconsciously, like an LSD trip but natural !

yeah so wanted to say I had my life messed up and the idea put into my head that music was a 'no go' and all my life I have gotten mental problems due to depriving myself, and then holding bakc when i did have a chance, as I didn't see it this way.

I am now 35, and if I stuck wit my guitar 5 yeras ago, I would have been amazing and could have written 5 or 10 albums, as have an estimated 100 hours of stuff i hummed into dicataphones (not the same thing !) and poems and lyrics and stuff lying about.....but instead I have gotten worse at guitar and haven't played it in 4 years properly, so whereas i could have had a last chance 5 eyars ago, now I will be 40 before I achieve what i could have by now.....

Now by the time I get my act together, either I will be burnt out, have lost my spark, or be considered too old in an agesit music industry and well seems like I ahve lost the battle before it has begun and can't do music 'for fun' as my potential was and is still a rare and precious gift, and well when i studied and worked ind esign, becasue I wasn't as good at it as music, I lost all my spare time having to keep up with it, and so neevr got a chance with music.

If i don't do music full time nwo, i will never get good, and other careers are all lost as gave them all up as don't care about life unelss I do music.
Shame the last 5 years I didn't do it, as had all day to study since losing my career.....but didn't. Now I regret even more, but want to play all day 8 hours or more, so reckon with my ability and that time, I could get amazing in between 6 months ad possibly give Steve Via a run fro his money by 2 years time.....btu will anyoen buy my records or come see my gigs if I do achieve !?

I tried the easeri option the last few years to join a band as a singer, as I sound like paul Rodgers and Robert plant, and well neevr learnt, I just am natural at siging as i can just do it.....and well many bands did like me, but I rejected them as they were not good enough and the song ideas I haev were brilliant but they liked playing indie, grunge, and well, i guess I should have just played my guitar and did it all on my own !

The joke is, i made a few songs up, when I was uninspired, and thought they were played badly and reject songs, and put them on myspace, and some independant label wanted to sign me with a 50/50 record deal, an dfree studio time when i liked ! I told them my msuci was crap, and the good stuff could be like led Zeppelin, and i had no band and needed a few eyars to learn guitra, and told them I was 35 and so asked them what their opinions were, and they were nice and said they liked me alot and to get in contact when i felt right.....

I don't know.... i won't give my true identity as never boast, but rather put myself down all the time, as used to i from my past, but had to be blunt on this forum as I need some opinions and want people not to f**k up like me !

I guess I want to see my error and regrets and now do music at all costs and not waste the rest of my life and time, and talent....

I guess learning is all about talent, and practice....effort is the word really as you need to push and be focused on the task in hand or you will lose your life, chances and all like me......i could have been amazing even the last 5 years, but am still rubbish my my standards,....

I intend to now play all day and focus and hopefully elarn by books, and compose music by ear and move along.....
If lessons are better please let me know, as dont' want another teacher to give me a complex and send me in a other 4 year time wasting regretful demise.

continued next page.....

steffyweffy777
07-09-2007, 12:10 PM
continued....


I still reckon everyone who has a talent for learning can teach themselves, and even if not 'perfect' it's their own style.....because of hendrix and van Halen got lessons they would probably not have done what they did, or they could have just the same as their openminded genius would have pushed them, but who knows maybe their doing it themselves was just the same !!!?

I know I would mess with the instrument getting weird noises, and believed the whole neck was one giant scale, and any chord was possible if you experimented, so I just felt not limited but to od what my fingers wanted !

I don't know, but my life was set into ruina nd continued by my mental problems....guess genius in music and imagination is just a word for a normal guiy having a mental problem which opens up the subconsious into giving 'free' music and skills .....i am not a genius, hate that word, as everyone is equal and born the same.....i just think some who have mental instabilitie and depressions, become conduits, ot vessels of unlocked ability and imagination, as the brain chemistry and problems open other doors as i don't compose anything, it just comes to me when it likes....

Mozart wa the same, some normal guy with a mental disorder, and thta gave him free music, which he took credit for, ...Nikola tesla was the same.....I guess I have tried alot of other thinsg in life ins mall snatches which is also why i didn't just do guitar as wanetd to design and act and designa dn do science, all things led me into going in circles and never focusing as because I wasn't allowed to do guitar, i guess I alwyas looked around at anything....i wanted to get into film making and write books, but then realised they all take ages and love guitar and well, i would do abit her and there of everything and get nothing done......a problem is when this gets out of hand and you get confused and then don't know what you wanna do in life anymore !



I woudl love to compose music without worrying about playing piano like rachmaninov or hendrix, before anyone wa ot hear my music, as writing straigh to paper saves time and the ned to play like a master before being able to get msuic out of me, before I lose it !

I have lost decades of amazing music which was liek mozart, zeppelin, etc....the last five years I was alos alot worse in my breakdown, as my bad phase also meant alot of the time my 'free music' would stop entirely for months and more leading me to think i had lost my spark, my talent and then this really screwed me up, as it made me realise we are all the same, just vessels of something which coems through us.

I doubt it's my age which I once thought due to my age complex, which stopped me learning the last few years fearing I'd never get anywhere.....and then i realsied I had mercury fillings about the same time I went downhill thje last few years, and enevr had fillinsg in my life before.

Who knows, maybe the mercury ahs given me brain fog or damage, and i have either lost that fine line which made me the way I was, or, its a coincidence....maybe i was always so good at imagining etc, as I had never had fillings in my life !!?

If I get them removed I need a proper doctor holistic dentist to do it, with precautions againts more mercury poisoning as removing fillings releases upto an equivalent of 10 years mercury exposure.....and will need mercury detox before and after, and the money to pay for it all, or my brain will furthur be more damaged and neevr clear up.....

I hope if all this gets doen I won't get alzheimers and lose my talent and hoep my spark returns or I will never get anywhere, and my life will not have just been a waste, but the later part of it will have lost the talent to achieve what could have been done if I had mercury !

any comments !

I feel like jumping off a building but then i will lose all chance of anything....i will probabaly get nowhere in life anymore, but I will, f**k that i will neevr let anything stop me, mercury, mental illness, regret, or the past, or age, or f**king anything !

I would love to learn composition, but don't want to spend years learnig as I just want to get it out instantly !!!!! any good boosk for this !?

Do I need lessons, or can I learn myself ?! anyone !?


anon (i go by some stupid avatar called steffyweffy, as will not reveal my identity)

UKRuss
07-09-2007, 12:55 PM
Thems some posts!

But may I sum up?

What you're asking is "Are guitar lessons a good idea"?

The answer is "Yes they are, if you're teacher is the right one for you"

Welcome to IBM!:D

forgottenking2
07-09-2007, 01:25 PM
That's a long post right there! Reading it is quite a feat of concentration considering it's 7 in the morning. I don't think age is an issue when it comes to learning music. I have had students that are over 70 and still enjoy it and are able to play music they like. You can look back and think of all the time you've lost or you could think of today and the future and make plans. Like Russ said, a teacher is a good idea but you need to find one that's right for you. Yes, there are some out there who are jealous and selfish with their knowledge, but there are some good ones too. It just takes some looking around that's all. Good luck with everything and welcome to IBM. We have tons of info here and if you have a questions there are a lot of very knowledgeable players who can answer your questions.

Enjoy your stay.

-Jorge

steffyweffy777
07-09-2007, 11:54 PM
thanks for those replies guys !

you are right.....guess I am not 70 yet, and at 35 i hope to see i could have doen alot the last 5 eyars and will maybe live to regret my folly, but will hopefully be a badass player by 40 ! or evn the next 4 to 6 months if I play and compose well, as I am not a paul Gilbert type, more wanting to play like Jimmy page !

Infact that's a good thing, if I said I just wanted to really be as good as jimmy page in playing, for starters, how long could this take based on a 3 to 8 hour practice regime ? and judging by the fact i already play some abit, and though forgot all my chords, can relearn etc, and well i learn pretty quick anyway.

Also for anyone out there, how long would it take an average person, so this question could be useful to all the led Zeppelin freaks out there !
I guess this will involve learning zep songs, as they are amazing and all one could need if they want to rock cool and hard, and not worry too much about shred and other players.

Also i asked about the teacher thing as I reckon with some good CD Books out there, like the Troy Stetina series and fingerstyle books out there, someone who is competent should in theory be a good teacher to apply this knowledge to themselves, as I know how to play abit already and so the physical side of guitar is not a problem to me, but learning stuff and technique is .

i want to save money sure, but alos like the idea of being my own boss....
is teaching a Holy Grail or can self learning be better for some !?
I tend to know how to learn as did have some lessons in the past so know you have to focus on small chunks at a time, and seperate the bass from the treble parts when learning some classical, and at one point I used to play some complex classical pieces by carcassi etc, when I had a few months of lessons, but hada breakdown and stoped and that was 5 years ago, what a shame by now I could have been not only a badass rocker, but in classical guitar too.....dam !

I only remember one piece, as I had learnt too much too fats at the time and it didn't sink in enough when I stopped suddenly. I can do some really cool baroque piece which sunds abit like Randy Rhoad's DEE piece, but is more ancient sounding....

regards and glad to be here...

what does anyone think of this ???

www.guitarprinciples.com

UKRuss
07-10-2007, 09:27 AM
It will take 3 years, 2 months, 4 days, 6 hours, 23 minutes and 6 seconds to be as good as Jimmy Page. Starting from.....NOW!

Seriously, forget about being as good as Jimmy Page, thats all subjective anyway. Sometimes I hear him and think that's great and sometimes I think Christ! Shut up the whining noise. Also, forget about shred. If it's not your thing don't even worry about it.

So, try learning some Zep songs. Simple as that.

Get some sheets and learn, through that you will learn chords and you can move on from there.

Get some songs under your belt and play the guitar.

Everything else comes next.

(this all comes with a warning that 70s rock is now deemed a personal thing that can only be played to very select audiences who share your taste in 70s rock, don't expect to turn up at parties and blow everyone away with Led Zep songs, s'all I'm saying)

UKRuss
07-10-2007, 03:17 PM
I am no counsellor and this site really deals with music of course;)

But I would suggest perhaps seperating your want to play guitar from your anger with your parents.

After all, we all have reasons to disagree and dislike the decisions our parents made. But you must remember, they are just people after all, humans that make mistakes.

I'm a parent and everyday I make mistakes, I hope my kids won't hold it against me later on down the line. They probably will, hey, that's life. They'll do the same to thei kids too.

Playing guitar has nothing to do with this in any case.

Forget about the past, learn to play guitar and enjoy it. Then if things are getting you down, you can plug in and ROCK HARD!

steffyweffy777
07-10-2007, 03:32 PM
Anyway regarding classic rock, there's always an undergound scene, as even Zeppelin were lambasted by all music press at the time, but they shone through....guess if you play anything, there's alwyas some audience, as I am not into crappy indie and the 'music scene' never was, as wasn't into britpop, or pop much before then ether ! always listened to classic rock and it was alwyas before my musical time....

guess if you make good music and people wanna hear you, record compannies will try and grab some part of it if they can as they only wnat money ! I say, everyone stick to what you want as art and progress goes forwards and is looking to change and evolve or fly in the face of fashion.....we must strive to be honest and love music and do it, and then if it's to be it will.....

Jed
07-10-2007, 03:46 PM
It will take 3 years, 2 months, 4 days, 6 hours, 23 minutes and 6 seconds to be as good as Jimmy Page.

. . . and no doubt this assessment comes with a double-money-back guarantee.

. . marking my calendar . .

cheers,

UKRuss
07-10-2007, 03:56 PM
Well, I don't think it's impossible for you to attain your dream. There is no reason at all why you couldnt become a succesful musician even if it's only at a semi pro level playing gigs in pubs and clubs.

Sure, it might be a bit late to have stadium rock dreams a la Zep, but if you dont try you'll never know.

It is equally satisfying to have a bit of notoriety on the web for example or playuing a few local gigs if thats your thing.

Go for it! All you gotta do is pick up that guitar and play!

UKRuss
07-10-2007, 03:59 PM
. . . and no doubt this assessment comes with a double-money-back guarantee.

. . marking my calendar . .

cheers,

Jed, in my books you already are as good as Jimmy Page...in fact I am beginning to believe you may in fact BE Jimmy Page.

Jed
07-10-2007, 05:09 PM
Jed, in my books you already are as good as Jimmy Page...in fact I am beginning to believe you may in fact BE Jimmy Page.

lol . . . there was a time back in the 70's, when the chemical mix was just right, that I was sure I was. Subsequent fatherhood and the resultant obligatory de-tox laid that fantasy to rest some time ago.

Now I'm just looking for a geezer gig that won't emotionally scar my progeny.

cheers,

Blutwulf
07-10-2007, 06:52 PM
Damn, Steffy, you make longer posts than I do.

Obviously, none of your questions can be answered until you define "good," "successful," etc. To me a guitar player is successful the first time they have fun playing. To me, "good" is a point of satisfaction and self-respect. By those standards. it can take very little time...

If your self-respect and satisfaction is dependent on believing that others are impressed with you, then you have set an unrealistic bar for your self-respect. Try not to judge yourself by what you imagine others feel about you (their feelings are based on their own misperceptions). It may be a bit unhealthy for one to pin their self-respect on an assumption of a misperception.

Play for you, until you are happy. As a happy side-effect, there will be others who like what you play. But do not depend on their approval. Compliments are nice, sure, but once you become addicted, you are screwed.

steffyweffy777
07-10-2007, 08:46 PM
too true.....i am just a whinging ninny, sorry for being a pain in the butt folks....i have plenty life left what am I complaining about, and if I shut my motuh years ago I could have done plenty !

hey, speak soon dudes

UKRuss
07-10-2007, 09:44 PM
Take a leaf out of Bluttie's book, he's the oldest man ever and he stays cool.

:D

steffyweffy777
07-11-2007, 10:15 AM
hey !

I also would like to play some proper metal, Zak wylde style, so am I too old to get any good before being a old age pensioner !?
as I said i know I was always a kid who learnt accoridon 5 times faster than others, and my teacher said he neevr met anyone with my ear, and thought couldn't read music as my ear made it too eays for me to disregard reading, but he'd say i learnt stuff in a lesson others took a month to learn !

i guess i wouldn't need lessons, if i wanted to save money, and could learn fats myself as it's not hard, you know, it's all about practice and stuff, though i guess there must be some black art ionvolved in learning tapping as tried to teach myself but can neevr get those 'squeels' unless I do them with the pick, but the ones made by the left hand seem to only happen with guitars equipped with EMgs and heavy distortion pedals as can't get those zak wylde squeals using my les paul type guitar through a marshall, unless I am **** !?

i guess if jack Black can rock we all can,and well the film is ****, but the intro song 'Kickapoo' is bloody hilarious, but features meatload and Dio, and is amazing....good old jack Black, he has to be comic, but he sticks up for metal, and that song is amazingly sounding !!!!

anyone agree !?

UKRuss
07-12-2007, 11:49 AM
There's plenty of advice in these forums on the technique required for good pinch harmonics (squeals).

As you have 30 years before you are an OAP...you have plenty of time to get Zakk Wylde on the guitar if you want to.

He remains a popular player but in general I'd say the demand for such music is on the wane.

Nowt wrong with learning the techniques though.

Blutwulf
07-12-2007, 12:23 PM
I'd say the demand for such music is on the wane.Damn you, vile popster! Well... Okay. I guess you're right. *sigh Rock has died, replaced by beeps and whistle dance music.

But as long as there is a Blutwulf to draw air into his lungs, there will always be a market for 70's rock and the electric guillotine of an open E major hammered by a windmilling arm and fed through a moaning tube amp.



That, and there'll always be bombast, apparently. Need... coffee...

UKRuss
07-12-2007, 01:12 PM
Heh hehhh.

But now we're talking 80s rock! Even die hard 70s rocksters didn't like 80s rock right?

I want to still like it all like I loved it then but...I just don't:(

joeyd929
07-12-2007, 01:50 PM
It will take 3 years, 2 months, 4 days, 6 hours, 23 minutes and 6 seconds to be as good as Jimmy Page. Starting from.....NOW!

Seriously, forget about being as good as Jimmy Page, thats all subjective anyway. Sometimes I hear him and think that's great and sometimes I think Christ! Shut up the whining noise. Also, forget about shred. If it's not your thing don't even worry about it.

So, try learning some Zep songs. Simple as that.

Get some sheets and learn, through that you will learn chords and you can move on from there.

Get some songs under your belt and play the guitar.

Everything else comes next.

(this all comes with a warning that 70s rock is now deemed a personal thing that can only be played to very select audiences who share your taste in 70s rock, don't expect to turn up at parties and blow everyone away with Led Zep songs, s'all I'm saying)

Actually, Russ, I did the calculations and you were off a little bit on the time it takes to not suck. You had stated that It will take 3 years, 2 months, 4 days, 6 hours, 23 minutes and 6 seconds to be as good as Jimmy Page. Starting from.....NOW!

Ah Ha, I re-calculated your figures, and it is actually It will take 3 years, 2 months, 4 days, 3 hours, 17 minutes and 43 seconds to be as good as Jimmy Page. Starting from.....NOW!

But seriously, it took me about 3 years before I was confident enough to play some leads but I jammed with friends even when I sucked..wait, I still suck...

UKRuss
07-12-2007, 02:33 PM
Damn! I knew I had miscalculated somewhere along the line.

Jed
07-12-2007, 02:48 PM
Wait, . . . can we start over ? I wasn't ready. . .


Actually, Russ, I did the calculations and you were off a little bit on the time it takes to not suck. You had stated that It will take 3 years, 2 months, 4 days, 6 hours, 23 minutes and 6 seconds to be as good as Jimmy Page. Starting from.....NOW!

Ah Ha, I re-calculated your figures, and it is actually It will take 3 years, 2 months, 4 days, 3 hours, 17 minutes and 43 seconds to be as good as Jimmy Page. Starting from.....NOW!

But seriously, it took me about 3 years before I was confident enough to play some leads but I jammed with friends even when I sucked..wait, I still suck...

joeyd929
07-12-2007, 10:26 PM
Wait, . . . can we start over ? I wasn't ready. . .

In all seriousness, I find that I get progressivly better when I don't think about it. What I mean is that when I try to focus on improving, I tend to stress out and get impatient and feel like no progress is being made.

However, if I just try to learn something new and take my time and just play whatever it is as best as I can, it seems that over time there is improvement.

For example, I have always liked hybrid picking since I saw a video of Albert Lee doing some hot picking. Then I noticed years later that Guthrie Govan utilizes this technique.

I started just playing around with alternate picking and hybrid finger technique and really didn't care how good or bad I was and a strange thing happened.. I started to get better at it on a considerable level.

Mind over matter I guess.. Like the old saying, a watched pot never boils..or was it "Never boil good pot"....something like that...

forgottenking2
07-13-2007, 02:50 PM
Yeh, I still suck... but I can blame it on my tendons ;)

steffyweffy777
07-18-2007, 05:23 PM
There's plenty of advice in these forums on the technique required for good pinch harmonics (squeals).

As you have 30 years before you are an OAP...you have plenty of time to get Zakk Wylde on the guitar if you want to.

He remains a popular player but in general I'd say the demand for such music is on the wane.

Nowt wrong with learning the techniques though.

you gotta play what you love dude......me, i just think the best songs are classic rock with some flash solos, like Zep, and Triumph.... to me my fave player who can be all round is Rik Emmet !

UKRuss
07-19-2007, 11:55 AM
That's true of course. It was just in the context of becoming a world famous rock star...a gentle hint that Zep probably won't get you there nowadays.:)

Reign of Praine
12-18-2007, 10:44 PM
As I have been attempting to teach myself for almost 20 years and have not gotten above beginner I thank you for this thread. I should say that I have only taken guitar seriously in the last 2 years. I think it depends on the drive you have to learn the guitar. If you want it you can get it much quicker. Of course if you have a teacher it accelerates the process. Also playing with others that are better than you. I have not had the luxury of either. I have tried to find a teacher recently and was turned down. I live in a rural area and teachers are hard to come by. So the jist of this is that If you want it bad enough you can get it. The time it takes is up to you. IMHO

He speaks the truth. I "want it" badly. The first time I touched a guitar was 4 or 5 months ago, and I started looking into theory as well. Now I completely understand guitar, and I can have an intellectual discussion with those people on the music theory forum.

Keep on Truckin'
-Reign of Praine

Jed
12-19-2007, 12:10 AM
The first time I touched a guitar was 4 or 5 months ago, and I started looking into theory as well. Now I completely understand guitar, and I can have an intellectual discussion with those people on the music theory forum.
(( shakes head and mumbles unintelligibly ))

LaughingSkull
12-19-2007, 07:33 AM
Now I completely understand guitar, and I can have an intellectual discussion with those people on the music theory forum.

Finally somebody does! :eek:

Reign of Praine
12-19-2007, 07:39 AM
Yeah, that was a little stuck up. Of course not COMPLETELY, I'm not Jimi Hendrix.

LaughingSkull
12-19-2007, 07:42 AM
Yeah, that was a little stuck up. Of course not COMPLETELY, I'm not Jimi Hendrix.

Alas, Jimi died too young. Would he live longer he would have learned so much much more. ;)

Chino_rebel
12-22-2007, 08:38 PM
I need to go dig it up but interestingly enough natural talent has more to do with skill acquisition than amount of time spent practicing (This is why you don't see many average looking NFL players, it takes lots of practice to become good -- and you can be a very good football player just by training a lot, but at a certain level genetics will be the bar that keeps you at 90% of NFL level etc.) I've seen that in a peer-reviewed medical medical journal but I don't know if I'll be able to find it again.

-Dan

Look, I don't want to go into how I know this, but this aligns perfectly with my own real-life observations and experience.

In fact I came up with a sort of formula: Talent, Interest, Dedication. You could take 100 people and have 'em try out something, and say 5 might have Talent. Then out of that 5 maybe 3 will have an actual Interest in it, and out of that 3 maybe one will have the Dedication to go anywhere with it.

I think a big trap is when you get a kid who shows the Talent, so the parents push them to do it, automatically assuming that they'll have the other two things too. But well, according to what I just wrote, that's a one out of five shot, and it's probably a longer shot than that. And they'll end up hating it or just not caring for it overly much, anyway. A good example of this is a kid who lived up the street from us, Fielding Benson, brother of the noted female surfer Becky Benson. Fielding was pushed like crazy by his parents, and the end result was his talent at balancing on a board went into skateboarding, and Becky, who was probably not pushed nearly as hard because female surfers weren't esteemed much in the 70s, went on to be a happy, successful, and GOOD surfer.

Another trap is the trap that if you have talent, you don't have to work so hard. Easy to fall into especially if you've never had to work hard at anything. But in truth, well, if you have Talent then assuming you want to do the thing, it basically means you ought to work harder than the other guy, because you'll actually get somewhere!

Talent is real, that's for sure. Lots of people like to say there's no such thing as talent, just hard work, but then you get these newbs in anything who just race by everyone and have learned a ton in something like 2 years.

But all the same, I have seen people in a thing without much talent, but they enjoy the hell out of it, they never get very good but they have one hell of a good time. No they didn't put in hours of training, didn't have an insane VO2 max or concentration like a laser beam, but they sure as hell enjoyed themselves.

Zaduro
02-05-2009, 04:44 PM
This sounds like a good question for Voodoo Child!;)
Some people just kinda pick up the guitar not really wanting it that badly but the more they learn, the more addicting it gets. Always raising the bar. If you really ;)want it bad, then practicing should be pretty fun in itself.

yeah that sounds like me xD i started at my school, an alternative school, not many people go to it i got sent there cuz i was bad in school cuz of a bad day basicly...

anyways, i went to that school for a whole year i got into rock climbing then that teacher left cuz his wife had to go to school for DR. stuff or get training or something.

well the next year, a new teacher that worked there for a while started an intrest group. it was called intro to guitar it was a class of about um 10 people. i hatet the acoustic guitars but i stuck with it sort of. the acoustic guitar wasnt as interesting sounding as electric distortion, but i got used to it and well i just messed arround fingering randome stuff putting together what ever i thought sounded good, loved nylon so much i need to get myself some of those strings... it hurt less then steel strings, so i kept at least messing arround and i pretty much do that now all the time... i can at least use all my fingers none of them are allways just sitting there uselessly :)

well i still hate steel string acoustic style but i like it better, i mean its not totaly atroshiouse to me anymore iv come to start likeing it actualy. still need to kill my feeling in my fingers.

anyways now im looking for information

ketch18
02-21-2009, 08:24 PM
if your really into it and u love what ur doing, it wont take long..just focus in whatever u want to do..and the next thing u knew ur doin it perfectly good..goodluck!!:D

tresz08
03-01-2009, 10:24 AM
The length of time to get good in playing a guitar is depend on the interest that you will be give while practicing on it.just be much more patient in doing it and enjoy every little thing that you've learned about playing a guitar. ;)

stopGoGo
05-20-2009, 04:52 AM
First post!
I'd like to chime in and tell you my story real fast.
I googled this question of how long does it take to learn guitar and it has taken me to this forum. I have a much broader understanding how guitars work now just by reading on. I always had the thought that once you get it, you just get guitar and all songs, lol... i guess it does not quite work that way.

Anyway, have you ever been so in love that you thought the world you see is inside that other person or significant other? Have you than ever been dumped in the most cruelest way and taken advantage of, from the same person you just so much loved.... ? Well that has happened to me in the last year.

I have to tell you this before you can understand because at this early stage I have found out what makes a great guitar player.
I loved my girl and she has burned me with another, took my cash and my heart. All I could think of is our song we heard together one last time which just so happened to be Everlong. I played it on my computer so much that my neighbors started to complain but its all i could think of, her and that stupid song. So my sister had an guitar laying around and out of curiosity I tried to figure out how this song went and as soon as I picked up the guitar I knew I had to play this song no matter what as fast as I could. Researched tabs and looked at a billion videos and learned how to play it in less than two weeks. I have had no musical talents or instruments that I have played. I just had a longing desire to learn this song and I did. I can now hammer strings to control the beat of the intro just like dave does (monkey see monkey do) I will perfect this song and play it for her so I can tell her to go **** herself because she has lost one great guy. Its been my inspiration and my fingers are purple but I just keep going. If I find how to post pictures I will show you what my index and ring finger look like from holding down those two notes for hours on end.


Sorry to make this so long but I wanted you to see that in the end, It really depends on your desire. How bad do you want it? I speed on my bicycle back home after work without nothing in mind but to get there and play my song untill i get it better than dave.

learnsingingonl
05-21-2009, 04:54 PM
It took me 2 weeks. I was really interested way back so I was really determined to learn. Its kinda hard but if there's a will there's a way. LOL

daystar
05-21-2009, 05:42 PM
WOW! You are a quick study my friend! I have been playing for 33 years and I am still learning...This site inparticular lets me know just how much I have yet to learn. But alas...in the struggle lies the glory...

JonR
05-21-2009, 06:35 PM
I learned from a book called "Play In A Day" (Bert Weedon):
http://www.localhistory.scit.wlv.ac.uk/articles/InBetweenTimes/BertWeedon.jpg
It's now 44 years later and I'm still at it.
I'm going to sue the bastard...

daystar
05-21-2009, 06:57 PM
ROFL!!!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is some seriously funny stuff Jon!!!!

NG7
05-21-2009, 07:18 PM
I think he's actually revised that book to "Play In 45 Years".

Best-seller that one.

You're almost there!

JonR
05-21-2009, 08:06 PM
Thanks guys.

You might like to know Mr Weedon is still at it too...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bert-Weedons-Play-Day-Guitar/dp/0571529658/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242932410&sr=1-1

Last time I looked at this book in a shop (year or two ago) I'd swear he hasn't updated it since the original edition (early 60s? late 50s?). He just gets a new photo done every decade.
That's chutzpah for ya... :)

Don't knock it tho. You know you go into a music shop today you'll see literally 100s of guitar manuals? Racks, walls full of em. You wanted a guitar manual in Britain in the early/mid 60s, this was It. The Only One. Believe it.
Beck, Page, Clapton, they all knew this book. (Mind you, I bet they put it down after a while with a superior smirk...)

Los Boleros
05-27-2009, 01:01 AM
I am still trying to figure that one out.

Crossroads
05-27-2009, 08:28 AM
I learned from a book called "Play In A Day" (Bert Weedon):
http://www.localhistory.scit.wlv.ac.uk/articles/InBetweenTimes/BertWeedon.jpg
It's now 44 years later and I'm still at it.
I'm going to sue the bastard...

Ha, ha ... yeah, it's bloody hilarious that, isn't it ... "Play in a Day" ... four shillings and sixpence (" I saw you coming! ") ... well he didn't actually say which day lol ... maybe he didn't mean day one ... he meant day 46,503! :eek:

Ian.

learnsingingonl
05-28-2009, 11:15 AM
Learning to play a guitar really takes time, effort and dedication to become a master on it.

alexisj
06-29-2009, 02:22 AM
Ever since. it was my frustration, to learn playing a guitar.
I've tried myself, training playing a guitar..

And why is that there are people like, whatever they tried, they could hardly learn it..

Crossroads
06-29-2009, 08:25 AM
And why is that there are people like, whatever they tried, they could hardly learn it..

"Whatever they tried"? Nah .... the real answer is that actually they didn't try much at all.

They often think they are trying. They think they are making a big effort. But actually their "big effort" is only a tiny fraction of what successful people do.

You want to play like Satriani (or whoever), fine ... then be prepared to give up everything else for 10 years and just practice/study guitar/music 8 hours every day.

Ian.

alexisj
06-29-2009, 08:35 AM
That was quite long..8 hours..really..!
Eagerness really pays if one really put dedication in learning playing a guitar.

JonR
06-29-2009, 08:58 AM
You don't need 8 hours a day. 3 hours a day for 10 years will get you the proverbial 10,000 hours apparently needed to attain "mastery" - professional level skill. (I guess more than that may elevate you to "genius" level, but I doubt it. A genius is probably someone who wants to do more than that to begin with.)
That's 3 hours every day, mind. 10 whole years. You want holidays, or a social life? Better add an hour a day for every day you take off. In fact, if you contemplate taking ANY day off from guitar playing, you probably won't make it as a player. If there is anything else you prefer to do, that's a bad sign.:)
Great musicians come from those you have to beg to stop playing once in a while, not the ones who moan about practising.

There is an argument about "quality" practice time as opposed to "quantity" ("I spend hours but never get anywhere..."). But IMO, the quality comes from the enjoyment of playing. If you enjoy it, you're learning (or at least improving), and it's quality time. If you get bored or tired playing, you're doing it wrong (or have maybe been playing several hours non-stop...).
I guess it's about using your ears at least as much as your fingers...

(And if we're talking about commercial success and fame, of course, that's about getting out there and meeting people, putting yourself about. And being reasonably young and good-looking can't hurt either... :rolleyes: )

alexisj
06-29-2009, 09:41 AM
If one really wants to learn about that stuff...one should have the interest and eagerness as I've said before...

As long as you put passion on what you are doing, then you'd probably succeed on it.

Crossroads
06-29-2009, 09:48 AM
These things are not written in stone. You could probably do it far quicker than 8 hours and 10 years, providing you have all the right attributes of intelligence, perfect environment, great encouragement help & motivation, ideal hands etc., as well as the total dedication.

Take a look at this clip of violinist Nigel Kennedy, and ask yourself how much work you think it took to play like that -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOLkRlbVYcI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOLkRlbVYcI)

Ian.

Crossroads
06-29-2009, 10:12 AM
I guess more than that may elevate you to "genius" level, but I doubt it. A genius is probably someone who wants to do more than that to begin with.)
Yes. Though I really don't know what to make of ideas about players being musical geniuses. At that stratospheric level I think all bets & basic logic are probably off.


There is an argument about "quality" practice time as opposed to "quantity" ("I spend hours but never get anywhere..."). But IMO, the quality comes from the enjoyment of playing. If you enjoy it, you're learning (or at least improving), and it's quality time. If you get bored or tired playing, you're doing it wrong (or have maybe been playing several hours non-stop...).

I guess it's about using your ears at least as much as your fingers...
I think perhaps when people are really serious about their practice, then they make it into "quality time", simply because they actually don't want to skimp on things. So they do stop to think about and analyse what they are playing, to see how that fits with general theory, and why they might be able to play the same exercises in other positions, other keys, from other scales, in other variations etc. They try more to understand each thing they practice/play, because they actually care about it.


And if we're talking about commercial success and fame, of course, that's about getting out there and meeting people, putting yourself about. And being reasonably young and good-looking can't hurt either... )
Again, I think all bets are off if the aim is purely commercial. In that case you might succeed even if you can't play a note and never practiced anything ... you might get away with miming everything and looking good through media packaging ... you might even succeed as a virtual artist, ie without even existing except as binary code on a computer :D .

Ian.

JonR
06-29-2009, 12:15 PM
I think perhaps when people are really serious about their practice, then they make it into "quality time", simply because they actually don't want to skimp on things. So they do stop to think about and analyse what they are playing, to see how that fits with general theory, and why they might be able to play the same exercises in other positions, other keys, from other scales, in other variations etc. They try more to understand each thing they practice/play, because they actually care about it.Exactly. It's a question of caring, and also being curious. Not focussing too narrowly on particular technical issues (which get boring or arduous).
Even when it's hard physical work, it's fun because it's a challenge, you can see the goal. But you also have plenty of other goals.
I think my main point is actual enjoyment of the process - when we talk about "working on" a technique, riff, or song, or whatever, it isn't really "work" is it, let's face it! :rolleyes: It's recreation. That's the only way you can maintain the level of commitment necessary.

Of course, once people start paying you to play stuff, it's easy to lose sight of the recreational side...

Again, I think all bets are off if the aim is purely commercial. In that case you might succeed even if you can't play a note and never practiced anything ... you might get away with miming everything and looking good through media packaging ... you might even succeed as a virtual artist, ie without even existing except as binary code on a computer :D .
I think you still need some kind of musical sensibility, at least to last beyond a one-hit wonder (which can be constructed entirely by producers and admen). I think the public (even a young audience) still retain an old-fashioned belief that someone who looks like they're singing or playing should at least have some actual input into it, some basic technical skill, even if there is (always) some studio trickery to put their wrong notes right or generally scatter fairy dust on the sound.

Crossroads
06-29-2009, 06:21 PM
Even when it's hard physical work, it's fun because it's a challenge, you can see the goal. But you also have plenty of other goals.

I think my main point is actual enjoyment of the process - when we talk about "working on" a technique, riff, or song, or whatever, it isn't really "work" is it, let's face it! It's recreation. That's the only way you can maintain the level of commitment necessary.

I think that's true. Though there are also times when, after a few hours, you really want to stop. Or times when you'd rather go out with friends or whatever. But where really serious players will stick to the practice timetable despite all that.

Also, I don't know about you, but I have a number of short technical exercise ("etudes"?), which I just enjoy playing for the sake of the trying to get the fretting, picking and "feeling/expression" the way I want it ... ie pieces where it's almost a different type of enjoyment to keep practicing them (eg a current example for me is Caprice No.10).


I think you still need some kind of musical sensibility, at least to last beyond a one-hit wonder (which can be constructed entirely by producers and admen). I think the public (even a young audience) still retain an old-fashioned belief that someone who looks like they're singing or playing should at least have some actual input into it, some basic technical skill, even if there is (always) some studio trickery to put their wrong notes right or generally scatter fairy dust on the sound.

Again I do agree with that. But I think the more commercial your aims, the less seriously you have to take the dedicated practice (you probably wouldn't even bother with guitar ... pick something easier, such as singing) ... though I don't usually regard that sort of stuff as proper musicianship ... it may still provide a fine "show" in the sense of "show-business", and there's clearly a big market for that (in saying that, I'm not thinking so much of catchy pop tunes, which may be much harder to write and produce than appears on the face of things).

Perhaps it's pompous of me to say it, but I do have much more respect when I think someone has really worked to achieve a high level of playing ability (say Nigel Kennedy) vs. others who are clearly in music to make a "show" (say Britney Spears).

All just 2:cents of course, :) .

Ian.

Blutwulf
06-29-2009, 07:11 PM
Heed my voice of experience when I say that it only takes about 10 years to forget how to play.

ChainsawGuitar
06-29-2009, 08:17 PM
If you're Zakk Wylde, it takes 4 years, and then you're famous the rest of your life...

...if you happen to be Zakk Wylde...

I think its all about your drive to learn and, most importantly, your drive to push yourself to do new things. If you want to get good, the best thing to do is to constantly push back the boundries of what you know and are able to do.

The easiest way to do that is to get a teacher, and talk to other guitarists to learn from them and what they know. Hence this forum :)

Crossroads
06-30-2009, 08:17 AM
If you're Zakk Wylde, it takes 4 years, and then you're famous the rest of your life...

...if you happen to be Zakk Wylde...

I think its all about your drive to learn and, most importantly, your drive to push yourself to do new things. If you want to get good, the best thing to do is to constantly push back the boundries of what you know and are able to do.

The easiest way to do that is to get a teacher, and talk to other guitarists to learn from them and what they know. Hence this forum

Well the guy above (LearnSingingOnly) only needed 2 weeks ... though he did say he was very keen :D .

A teacher can only be of limited help. Important, yes ... but still nowhere near as important as your own dedicated practice. In the end, no matter how good your teacher, your progress will be 99% all your own work.

Jimmy Bruno (jazz guitarist) says on his DVD " if you just want to play some songs with your friends then maybe one hour a day is enough, or if you want to play some local bars and clubs for beer money then you need maybe 3 hours a day, but if you want to play jazz professionally, you need to practice all the hours you possibly can, 10 hours a day " ... he's also referring to himself when he says that, and at a rough guess he was aged about 45 when he made that DVD, ie he's saying that he has typically tried to practice up to 10 hours a day all through his playing life.

Jeff Beck says he still practices about 3 hours a day, and he's now aged about 65.

In that clip of Nigel Kennedy, I'd guess he's aged about 50. Without checking, I'd also guess he started playing around the age of 6. And since then I'd bet he's practiced for many hours almost every day of his life, and probably still does practice several hours a day.

In my experience, famous guitarists are hopelessly unreliable when stating how they learnt to play and how many hours they practiced. Either they have complete memory loss, or else they really just don't want to say. If you listen to enough Paul Gilbert interviews, then you can get the general impression (although I've never heard him say it explicitly), and I think he practiced about 4 or 5 hours most days from the age of about 9 or 10 (though he had first lessons at 6). Then he had a period of practicing much more than that ... and by the age of 18 or 19 he was playing and practicing all day every day with various bands ... I expect that equated to about 6 to 8 hours a day from the age of about 10 to 17.

Zakk Wylde? .... who knows (shrugs).

Ian.

dantheguitarman
08-24-2009, 07:12 PM
It obviously varies per person - there is no one cut off point for everyone.

It usually comes down to how long it takes for a person to make a sound they enjoy hearing - so it's completely subjective and as much to do with expectations.

I have taught young kids who have 'learned' to play guitar very quickly - we're talking weeks. By this I mean after a few weeks they are playing simple songs they enjoy playing.

However, if by 'learn' the guitar you mean playing like Zak Wylde, or some other guitar hero, you may never 'learn'. By this standard I still haven't learnt and Ive been playing for 25 years!!!

My advice to everyone is start simple.

Have a look on this page for some simple songs to play:

http://www.dantheguitarman.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/

They might not be the songs you want to play in the long run, but you will be able to pluck a couple of recognizable tunes in less than an hour i reckon, and you can start practicing the basics. If a six yr old can do it!

joeyd929
08-26-2009, 01:50 AM
It obviously varies per person - there is no one cut off point for everyone.

It usually comes down to how long it takes for a person to make a sound they enjoy hearing - so it's completely subjective and as much to do with expectations.

I have taught young kids who have 'learned' to play guitar very quickly - we're talking weeks. By this I mean after a few weeks they are playing simple songs they enjoy playing.

However, if by 'learn' the guitar you mean playing like Zak Wylde, or some other guitar hero, you may never 'learn'. By this standard I still haven't learnt and Ive been playing for 25 years!!!

My advice to everyone is start simple.

Have a look on this page for some simple songs to play:

http://www.dantheguitarman.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/

They might not be the songs you want to play in the long run, but you will be able to pluck a couple of recognizable tunes in less than an hour i reckon, and you can start practicing the basics. If a six yr old can do it!

Yeah, I started in 1972 for 1 year and quit, then started again in 1977 and since then it's been 32 years. Of that 32 years, overall, I stopped playing here and there for a total of about 5 years. So I guess 25 years is about accurate for me too.

I still can't play my way out of a paper bag when it comes to things like jazz or shred. I think maybe it's genetic. Lol...

1brannon10
11-12-2010, 01:46 PM
Man, look, step one is passion. Passion all the way. Just like actions speak louder than words, passion brings you to the unknown level. Let's get something straight, there are guitar player's and guitarists. A guitar player will aquire tablature from the internet and sit in his room and peck out mainstream licks all day, and every time he picks up a guitar, chances are he will play the intro to enter sandman or a random chili peppers song. A guitarist, however, is A LOT different. A guitarist will write they're own songs, come up with they're own style, and most importantly, they're heart will be into what they're doing. I know well over a handful of people that "have been playing since they were six" that are horrible, and they match the "guitar player" description perfectly. Not to say that some of these guys aren't good at what they do, but to be the next Stevie Ray, you have to do so much more than that. You can hear, see, and tell a guitarist every time you come across one. I can tell you with all honesty that the ONLY way to become a great guitarist or even a decent one is to LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE the instrument. Want to play it. Have a burning desire to play it and advance your talent with it. Stevie Ray used to fall asleep playing his guitar almost every night. Do you think he loved his instrument? He was one of the greatest who ever lived despite any argument. You don't get to hear about the "guitar players" because they don't become famous or make it anywhere. Verdict: write your own music, come up with your own original style of playing, and ESPECIALLY don't try to copy ANYONE. It's better to struggle playing original music than it is to try to impersonate someone well. Trust me, my friend. Best of luck to you and remember, practice and love, it's all it takes. Time will do the rest. Time does everything with music.

Malcolm
11-12-2010, 11:31 PM
How long? That big one took some time.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_IFZZFYzMvqI/TJfXkTYjgPI/AAAAAAAABJA/OoqwSVynRSw/s1600/stonehenge-wallpaper-1.jpgws

magickpsy
12-29-2010, 07:40 PM
Let me just put this out there right up front: I'm a newbie. I have been playing around with the guitar since 1990 and like a few others here, I still can't manage to finish one song all the way through. Well, maybe a couple of songs that are super easy. Throughout the years, I've always let other things take me away from getting better and making basic improvements, but I've always came back to the music in some form, whether it was piano or guitar.

Here's my take on the answer as to how long it takes to learn to play until you are a solid guitar player and musician:

First, musicianship is a mindset. All your life experiences, whether musically related or not add to being a musician. In that respect, it is a lifetime journey. But so is knitting, bodybuilding, chess, and anything else.

Musicianship is more than knowing theory, having perfect pitch, being able to play by ear, sight reading, and mastering techniques, etc. It includes your heart, soul and passion. Charisma, performance, confidence, sincerity.

Recently, I watched a video on Youtube, it was a bodybuilding documentary from the 1970s, when Arnold Schwarzenegger was still relatively unknown. In it, he said that to him bodybuilding is like orgasm. The touch of the weights, the smell of the gym, pumping the weights, the soreness, posing on stage, flexing, the aches and pains of lifting day in and day out, it all feels like coming to him. He said he was constantly in that state, whether with his girlfriend or in his profession.

Nobody asks themselves how long it takes to have sex in the middle of an orgasm. It feels so good you just don't want it to end ever. Infact, you're exploding with pleasure. The same deal with guitar playing or any instrument.

I think "natural talent" has a lot to do with passion. People who love playing for the sake of playing usually don't worry too much about the time it takes for them to get good, because they just can't put their instrument down.

If you practice with passion, time is going to fly and before you know it, you'll be rockin'. As far as teachers and instructors go, personally, I think I can do much better on my own until I've got the basic foundation. Then, it will be time for a good teacher to help me clean it all up and put it together in a total package.

Some people do better by themselves, and others do better with someone there, but like someone else said, the main thing is that you practice correctly.

Something that has worked for me: I've been practicing scales and basic chords not to get better, but as a meditative exercise. I do it very slow and with absolute focus on proper technique and focus my awareness on the now. Each note gets my attention, each chord gets my undivided hearing and feel for its own sake. For me, it is deeply relaxing and pleasurable and I've been finding myself reaching for the guitar several times a day now, with no pressure.

This is just my take on it, and as I said before I'm still a beginner, so I could be totally wrong.

ragasaraswati
04-01-2011, 05:50 PM
I imagine playing in a band will accelerate the process, as well as having a teacher; in the beginning at least and foremost to prevent early mistakes that will prove costly in the long run. In the end I would answer this question with "as long as the player sets to".

time2kill
04-07-2011, 12:19 PM
Wow. What a very interesting thread. I would like to reply with my thoughts, but it took so long to register and then find this thread, I don't have time before I have to go to work. LOL. Maybe later.

joeyd929
04-07-2011, 03:52 PM
I have done the math, it takes approx. 4 years, 5 months, 3 days, 4 hours, 17 minutes, and 42 seconds to learn guitar......on average....just sayin...:D

JonR
04-07-2011, 04:20 PM
I have done the math, it takes approx. 4 years, 5 months, 3 days, 4 hours, 17 minutes, and 42 seconds to learn guitar......on average....just sayin...:DRight... That's my problem!
I gave up after 4 years, 5 months, 3 days, 4 hours, 17 minutes, and 41 seconds. Couldn't take any more. [sigh]
If only I'd known this before! :D

joeyd929
04-07-2011, 04:29 PM
Right... That's my problem!
I gave up after 4 years, 5 months, 3 days, 4 hours, 17 minutes, and 41 seconds. Couldn't take any more. [sigh]
If only I'd known this before! :D

I feel so responsible..

Crossroads
04-10-2011, 09:35 AM
It will take literally for ever if you don't practice/learn properly/seriously :rolleyes:.

The vital thing is that you must really apply yourself to what you practice and the way you practice.

That is - you need to be really critical about each pick stroke of the right hand and each fretting action of the left hand ... you need to watch & listen very carefully to what you are actually doing when picking and fretting each note ... and you need to be absolutely disciplined about correcting all mistakes right there and then.

That's just about playing technique of course. We also need to be just as focused and critical about melodic playing, ie about phrasing and "musicality" ... about listening to what others play (eg on record) and listening carefully to what we play ourselves.

And then of course you also need to have a good grasp of at least basic essential theory, so as to have a formal framework on which to pin your "understanding" of what you are playing and what others are playing & why they are playing those things (scales, chords, arps etc) ... you need to have that language of theory in order to have an organised and consistent way of rationalizing what you play.

How long does that take? Well as I say - if you just put in loads of hours practicing, but without every facing up to what you are actually doing in that really disciplined way I tried to describe above, then it really will take "for ever" lol.

IOW - you have to be serious about it, or else it just aint ever gonna work mate :D.

time2kill
04-15-2011, 11:26 PM
If you don't know where you are going, it shouldn't take very long to get there.

Playing guitar is a lot like driving on the highway. No matter how fast or slow you go, there will always be people in front of you, there will always be people behind you, and there will be some folks at your same general position.

What's the hurry? Enjoy the ride.

diesel
06-21-2011, 02:28 AM
I realize after playing for 2 years that this will be a lifetime journey for me but that doesn't demotivate me because I'm having so much fun!

I think the key ingredient to becoming proficient at playing is your passion. That's what drives me! It's never a chore to practice.

That's my take on it anyways!

Chim_Chim
06-21-2011, 05:28 AM
If you don't know where you are going, it shouldn't take very long to get there.

Playing guitar is a lot like driving on the highway. No matter how fast or slow you go, there will always be people in front of you, there will always be people behind you, and there will be some folks at your same general position.

What's the hurry? Enjoy the ride.

Exactly. It's too easy to be overly anxious or competative.
You're the only one who can take the trip or make the journey.
Just be sure you wanna go. Comparing is just as dumb as comparing your car to every other car on the road.
Oh those old people like to go slow and those young people like to go fast, and those middle aged people like to go at medium speed.
Who effing cares? I heard on South Park that we all crap our pants when we die. :D

danil
06-25-2011, 04:44 PM
It took me around 3 months to properly learn guitar chords. And in next 5-6 months I properly understood it and now I can play it properly. But still for those people that have the question "how long does it take to learn guitar (http://www.howlongdoesittaketolearnguitar.net/)?" in mind -- It depends on your passion to learn.

PS. It's a great way to impress girls. So start learning guitar chords quickly ;)

teachermike
06-27-2011, 07:49 PM
I noticed that several people have said that they are having trouble teaching themselves to ply guitar. Having taught guitar for a number of years, I believe that some of the problem with learning to play is the lack of good books out there. It also helps to have someone to explain the best way to bring it all together (getting the good sound out of your chords, learning to play in time, swithching from on chord to another, etc.). I do know that you can't learn overnight.
http://www.wordpress.com/michaelbachelier

rockabilly
07-22-2011, 03:44 AM
My first post so hello all.

I've been playing for about a year and 9 months to be exact.

I got the urge to learn to play watching youtube. Were would I be without it. I was viewing some guy play Round N Round and Bark at The Moon and said I would love to play those songs.

Well I realized about a month in that to play at those levels would require some serious practice. I was playing a cheap electric guitar I got from MF and found that learning from acoustic first would build my finger strength and give me better technique. So I purchased a nice Yamaha for about 2 hundred from GC.

So I have been practicing non-stop since. Six months in I could play Layla acoustic pretty well. Not great, more just being able to play without stumbling but not with good feel.

Still can't hit the triplets as well as I should in that song.

I couldn't play Fire and Rain until 6 months later due to the fingering and me not having enough strength. Fingers 2,3 and 4 are used heavily. 6 months after that I could really play it. And now a year and a half later, I can really play it.

I've practiced and practiced and practiced scales and other finger strengthening drills over and over and have added new ones as I go along.
I now have about a thousand hours of practice.

To my dismay I read an article that mentioned great guitar players have about 10,000 hours of practice.

For me, guitar is a very tough instrument to learn and improvements come in small increments followed by short vast improvements.

Learning new songs and training techniques have been the best for my improvements.

After all of this work, I can play some songs with a good amount of skill. Tears in Heaven, Babe Im gonna leave you, Needle and the damage Done, Stairway to heaven-just the acoustic portion etc... .

I've learned strictly from the internet and a particular free website.

So that is my how long does it take to be a good player story. Though I don't consider myself a good player. I'm a decent/ok player. I lack terribly in ear and theory.

One of the things one quickly learns from the internet is how many really good players are out there. And I'm not talking about the famous players. Just blokes like me learning on their own.

weakendwarrior
10-01-2011, 08:37 PM
Hello folks. This is my first post here but I found this discussion interesting and thought I might add my perspective as someone who has been playing for forty years.

Several people have mentioned "passion" and i think that is probably the key to advancing on the instrument. As I recall, I had every bit as much fun with my first guitar the first week I had it as I ever have since. Does that mean I could play it? Are you serious? Rather, I loved everything about it....the feel of it in my hands, the smell inside the soundhole (rosewood I think), the sound....you get the idea (well, I loved ALMOST everything...it took a while for my finger tips to warm to the idea and the "F" chord was a challenge...haha).

Over the years improvement has come in quantum leaps....there would be stagnant times and then it would seem I would improve rather dramatically as if overnight. I can't really remember when I first became proficient with barre chords.

The key for keeping up my interest was in always trying to practice things I wanted to practice. I'm of the opinion that you can learn something, no matter how small, from every song you learn to play. This will be transferable to the next tune you tackle). Superimpose structured practice of scales (of limited usefulness in making MUSIC in my humble opinion), arps (hugely important, again, in my humble opinion), and chords and inversions....and after a while things seem to gel. The problem, and one can only see this in hindsight (or with a really sensitive tutor), is that it's difficult to truly understand one concept without the understanding of several related concepts. Thus, one may feel they are progressing slowly, if at all, until he/she focuses on some other area which suddenly brings the area of previous study into sharp focus. Hence my idea of "stepwise" rather than "linear" inprovement.

Sooooo....how long does it take to learn to "play guitar". I'm still learning and that's what is one of the big attractions...it is NOT and will NEVER be boring to me so long as I have goals and the goals are limitless.

My suggestions....find a good teacher....(no sense re-inventing the wheel). Play SONGS and SING along (even if your vocal abilities are in league with mine...there is very good scientific evidence that vocalization helps with internalization). Last, and most importantly....enjoy the process...take occasional breaks from the instrument (or even learn another instrument...it'll only help your guitar playing), begin transcribing day one (I mean it...first thing I learned was the riff for Iron Man on the sixth string...day one...didn't sound like much but it's the beginning of ear training which is crucial) and before you know it, you'll be playing.

I'll go out on a limb here. I think you can learn to strum and play a few tunes, start to finish, in a few months practicing an hour a day four or five days a week. A facility with jazz will require a lot more time and effort but will improve your overall concept of the instrument. Not absolutley necessary though. It's not a competiton. Is Neil Young a great technician...not in my opinion. Can he move you with his playing....I think so...in spades. For my taste...I would say exactly the opposite for Satch and Vai.

rockabilly
10-01-2011, 10:05 PM
Hello folks. This is my first post here but I found this discussion interesting and thought I might add my perspective as someone who has been playing for forty years.


Just was made aware of your post here. Most of what you say really hits home. Your the third person who has noted singing while playing. The last was a family member who also plays. And you also note transcribing. I am going to start really doing both for real at least two or three times a week.

You mentioned Satch. I was watching him on Youtube and he gave some technique drills which immediately improved my playing almost overnight.

Thanks for posting.

joeyd929
10-10-2011, 09:41 PM
[QUOTE=So that is my how long does it take to be a good player story. Though I don't consider myself a good player. I'm a decent/ok player. I lack terribly in ear and theory.[/QUOTE]

It is all about ear training. If you teach yourself to play what you hear you can just do it without all the paperwork.

Learn any way that you can but remember your ears are always learning...It is a proven fact that all musicians play exactly the way they hear.

If ya can't hear it, ya can't play it.. Patterns and scales are good but spend more time on ear training...

joeyd929
10-10-2011, 09:44 PM
Just like language, we should be able to repeat on our instrument, exactly what we hear being played. It happens faster for some, slower for others.

Crossroads
10-11-2011, 09:51 AM
It is all about ear training. If you teach yourself to play what you hear you can just do it without all the paperwork.
Learn any way that you can but remember your ears are always learning...It is a proven fact that all musicians play exactly the way they hear.
If ya can't hear it, ya can't play it.. Patterns and scales are good but spend more time on ear training...

Joey, do you mean someone has done some research to show that people apparently "hear" things in a different way, or perhaps "appreciate" what they hear in a different way? And that the difference in how each of us "hears" things will mean that some aspiring musicians progress more quickly than others as a result of that difference in hearing/appreciation ... is that what you are saying?

Do you have any links to any research like that? Because I think that would be very interesting if in fact anyone has really shown that peoples "hearing-appreciation" is different.

Certainly it's true that if you try to transcribe the music you hear, then at first that's quite difficult and slow, but your ear may seem to improve as you keep doing that, because as time goes on you become faster and more proficient at transcribing.

However, I think it's also obvious that part if not all of that improvement is actually down to the fact that you become much more proficient at knowing where those particular sounds are on the instrument ... that is - if you transcribe enough stuff, then you begin to recognise the same sort of musical sounds and phrases in loads of different songs, and your brain rather than your ears, learns where those notes are and where those sounds are on the guitar fretboard ... your brain & knowledge of theory may also tell you how to make a good guess at which scales and arpeggios the player is probably using, so again you begin to use the short cut of going straight to the most likely scale/arp notes.

One of the problems that puzzled me for years when I first tried to play guitar, which was admittedly decades ago at a time when I had not the faintest idea what a scale even was, let alone any idea of theory or how to play in key, was the question of how to get sounds and ideas from my head to come out on the fretbaord.

Nowadays when I teach relative beginners, even if they don’t ask me, I usually try to face them with that same problem of how to go from sounds in your mind, to actually producing that on the guitar.

In fact the way to do that is very easy. All those sounds are within a simple scale pattern. Almost any scale pattern will do for most simple songs. All you need to do is to think of a phrase or lick in your head, and then go to you favourite scale pattern, and you should quite quickly find those notes right there in that simple scale pattern.

You can begin with the simplest pattern, such as A-min pentatonic. And if you can’t find all the notes within that pattern, then just add the extra two notes to make it full Natural minor scale. Now you will almost certainly find the notes of your mental tune very quickly. If some notes are still not obvious, then just try the chromatic passing tones between those scale notes … now it must work, because now you have all possible notes in western music lol.

But the point is - to go from an idea in your head, to bringing that out on the guitar, all a beginner needs to do is to play around for a few mins with the notes form his/her most familiar scale pattern.

I am not suggesting that experienced players like you are unaware of the above, and indeed you may have a much better way to do such things, but I’m just sticking that idea in here because I think it’s relevant to the concept of playing what we hear, and it may be useful as a simple method for “beginning” players to go from what's in their mind to what can be produced as sounds from the instrument (I hate words like “beginner”, because I think we all end up being so humbled by the difficulties of the instrument that no matter how good we become, we are all conscious of remaining beginners in some sense).

joeyd929
10-11-2011, 12:48 PM
Joey, do you mean someone has done some research to show that people apparently "hear" things in a different way, or perhaps "appreciate" what they hear in a different way? And that the difference in how each of us "hears" things will mean that some aspiring musicians progress more quickly than others as a result of that difference in hearing/appreciation ... is that what you are saying?

Do you have any links to any research like that? Because I think that would be very interesting if in fact anyone has really shown that peoples "hearing-appreciation" is different.


I think you get the general idea of what I'm saying based on the way you teach...I have posted this link at an earlier date but here is the youtube video that I discovered which is more or less the "proof" that all people play by ear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_7DgCrziI8

rockabilly
01-16-2012, 03:31 AM
I think you get the general idea of what I'm saying based on the way you teach...I have posted this link at an earlier date but here is the youtube video that I discovered which is more or less the "proof" that all people play by ear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_7DgCrziI8


Not sure I believe everything he said in the video about brain connection as music to me is more soulful than something so mechanical. Great music to me is always spiritual and the ability to portray it is brain or mind to hands.

But the point he was making corresponds to athletes in that it is visualized or in this case auralized which is really what separates great athletes or musicians from lesser performers.

How many great golfers do we hear say they visualize the shot before they make it. Many if not most.

I think Beethoven is a great example of this. He wrote songs after going deaf because he could still hear it in his head and from his years of practice new how to write it to make it sound like what he heard.

Iprogdrummer
01-29-2012, 04:48 PM
Um....Somebody turned you down for lessons?!!? Just sayin.....(?) You can take online lessons now & from some really great players/teachers!

Gallipoli
05-23-2012, 05:06 AM
It really depends on the effort that you put into your practicing. If you don't put much effort, you won't get much result.


_______________
My Blog (http://playing-the-guitar.net)

All_¥our_Bass
06-23-2012, 01:33 AM
Amount of effort and what you define as 'good'.

For example you could take about a year and be able to play some simple rock tunes or between 1 and 2 for some more 'involved' rock tunes.

But if you goal is something technical and precise like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9RJXWxth5g

It's gonna take lots of time and effort and practice and EVERYTHING ELSE.

moniquebliss
01-26-2013, 11:56 PM
I've learn to play guitar since I was in high school and until now I have not mastered it. Its true that it is easy to learn, but the mastery of guitar playing will take you forever. Specially if you don't practice what you've learned often. Today, my brother is more expert on playing the guitar than me because he does it almost everyday. Yey him!

C.W
02-19-2013, 04:50 AM
Damn you, vile popster! Well... Okay. I guess you're right. *sigh Rock has died, replaced by beeps and whistle dance music.

But as long as there is a Blutwulf to draw air into his lungs, there will always be a market for 70's rock and the electric guillotine of an open E major hammered by a windmilling arm and fed through a moaning tube amp...


I'm 28 (so just missed the 'good old days'), but I'm sensing a revival - 70's rock is most definitely not dead!

With regards to the OP, I've not quite gotten on course with the learning of the necessary skills. I do have a basic electric guitar to attempt to practice on, but can't even tune it without the electric tuner. I'm such a loser!

I've discovered, at least with getting the basics sorted, I'm going to need a pro (any advice on how to select a guitar tutor would be super handy)! Thank you for a general idea of time frames though. I'm willing to put the time in, around work and my English degree (home learning), but I'm waaaaay more focused when I have deadlines, like a tutor going: "Yo, woman, you gotta learn this sh*t by next week, or you suck!" Or something to that effect.

Is having little fingers going to be a problem?

diesel
02-19-2013, 05:05 AM
IMHO I don't think finger size matters! Yes long slender fingers are a great advantage but not all of us are born with them. You learn to adapt a long the way.

What you put into playing and practicing is what you get out of it. I have been playing for 4 years and so much more advanced than my friend who has been playing for about 7. He plays and practices whenever! The difference is I play and practice every single day. I have missed 3 days in 4 years due to illness. I work full time, have 3 boys and cook and clean just like every other Mom on the block. I think it has to do a lot with passion. Sometimes I don't want to practice as I would rather play but then again when I do play I still practice but not as much as a regular practice session with scales, technique, timing etc. I live to play.

C.W
02-19-2013, 05:14 AM
IMHO I don't think finger size matters! Yes long slender fingers are a great advantage but not all of us are born with them. You learn to adapt a long the way.

What you put into playing and practicing is what you get out of it. I have been playing for 4 years and so much more advanced than my friend who has been playing for about 7. He plays and practices whenever! The difference is I play and practice every single day. I have missed 3 days in 4 years due to illness. I work full time, have 3 boys and cook and clean just like every other Mom on the block. I think it has to do a lot with passion. Sometimes I don't want to practice as I would rather play but then again when I do play I still practice but not as much as a regular practice session with scales, technique, timing etc. I live to play.

Thank you for the reply, diesel. I'm fully prepared to do the time! I'm just finding it frustrating at the moment when I don't know what I'm actually doing wrong. Unfortunately, as much as I love books (even when coupled with online/dvd tutorials), they're just not the same as actually having someone there and teaching you the 'right' way of doing it.

Got to get the basics right before I can make progress, me thinks!

And, wow! That's pretty amazing that you've only missed four days! I bet you certainly do get the benefit of that too.

diesel
02-19-2013, 06:04 AM
Sorry CW I forgot to tell you that I had lessons for a year or there abouts. I just got fed up with the way I was being taught. I had 3 different teachers! While I did learn a few things from them they were mostly after my money. they all wanted to teach me songs without teaching me even the notes on the fretboard. OMG I was so angry! I just got so fed up that I thought that I was smart enough to be able to teach myself. There is so much stuff on the internet and there's a myriad of teaching dvd's out there. I haven't looked back!

C.W
02-19-2013, 06:29 AM
Sorry CW I forgot to tell you that I had lessons for a year or there abouts. I just got fed up with the way I was being taught. I had 3 different teachers! While I did learn a few things from them they were mostly after my money. they all wanted to teach me songs without teaching me even the notes on the fretboard. OMG I was so angry! I just got so fed up that I thought that I was smart enough to be able to teach myself. There is so much stuff on the internet and there's a myriad of teaching dvd's out there. I haven't looked back!

Scam artists are definitely a very active breed. If a tutor advertises as teaching music theory, that should mean they are willing and able to teach notes. Thereby eliminating spending unnecessarily high amounts of cash on tutors that don't teach; just act as a walking, talking songbook, right? I posted a question (http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19552) on the 'Getting Started' page just asking if anyone has any information on what I should be looking for when trying to find a decent tutor.

So far, I've spotted websites for two 'local' tutors and there are pros and cons to them both. The first is younger, doesn't mention much about teaching theory, aside from school/university courses, but his credentials look good. He also uses an online resource called Grooveshark to link students, and view playlists, listen to what you've been able to play... etc, which looks interesting. But I'm currently leaning to a gentleman in his late 30s (I think), who works as a sessional musician, tailors the lessons according to what "I" want (ie/ will mix in theory to whatever degree I want it, can work towards gradings if that's the plan, or just 'play for fun'). He's had a lot of experience teaching too (the first about 6 years teaching in schools, the second one about 15 years, I think, with a combination of age ranges, abilities, etc...) but I don't know what else I should be looking for.

I need a tutor to help me at least cover the basics. Really am struggling making sure that I'm getting my fingers in the right place/making the right sounds...

diesel
02-19-2013, 05:34 PM
There are many websites around that will show you the correct finger placement! What exactly are you struggling with? Finger placement of just playing chords, arpeggios, scales or would it be techniques? Hammerons, pull off, trills etc.

Excellent finger placement is imperative in everything performed on the guitar! It's so important that you are aware of this!

http://www.guitarfriendly.net/finger-placement-for-guitar-chords/

Here is one site I found in a matter of a minute or so!

Let me know so I can try and help you!

C.W
02-19-2013, 10:40 PM
There are many websites around that will show you the correct finger placement! What exactly are you struggling with? Finger placement of just playing chords, arpeggios, scales or would it be techniques? Hammerons, pull off, trills etc.

Excellent finger placement is imperative in everything performed on the guitar! It's so important that you are aware of this!

http://www.guitarfriendly.net/finger-placement-for-guitar-chords/

Here is one site I found in a matter of a minute or so!

Let me know so I can try and help you!

Ooo thank you! I found a few this morning that I tried out before I went to bed, but I just couldn't work out how to get my fingers to work the way they should. I never knew knuckles wobble!

When I'd get my fingers in position, finger 3 would 'wobble' (quickly flicking back and forth) so the note wasn't held down properly. I'm going to put this down to a need for 'strengthening' the finger muscles though. It probably doesn't know it needs to remain stable. Yet.

I carried on practicing until I had dents in my finger tips though! I guess I'm not really going to get anywhere until I train my fingers to do my bidding.