Pentatonics & Melodic Permutations (Theory Article)

[Toni Lloret]

Pentatonics & Melodic Permutations

Let's try a random pentatonic ...
A Minor pentatonic for example
their grades are 1,3,4,5,7
and their intervals 1,b3,4,5,b7 .

The minor pentatonic could be done over any minor modes and their intervals wont change, but ... What would happen if we take the minor pentatonic's grades and we fix'em over a major mode?
Pentatonic Grades 1,3,4,5,7
Over Jonic mode 1,3,4,5,7
Over Lydian mode 1,3,#4,5,7
Over Mixolydian mode 1,3,4,5,b7
In this way we would form what many of us know as Modal Pentatonics.

We could do it inverse ...
Take the major pentatonic's grades 1,2,3,5,6
and fix'em over a minor mode ...
Eolic 1,2,b3,5,b6
Frigian 1,b2,b3,4,b6
Doric 1,b2,b3,4,6

Conclusion....
We can make modal pentatonics over each one of the modes of any heptatonic scale using the minor pentatonic's grades (1,3,4,5,7,) and major pentatonic's grades (1,2,3,5,6) and fixing this grades adding bemols or sustaineds depending on the needing of the mode that we would convert in pentatonic.

OK, now who want it can begin proving to make modal pentatonics with the pentatonic's grades 1,3,4,5,7 y 1,2,3,5,6 .
I'm sure many of you will enjoy the result.

And to the more workers I leave you the rest of the pentatonic permutations so you can enjoy applying it over the modes you want, (you can use any modal scale of the major, harmonic minor, melodic minor and mixed major (harmonic major) modes or any other heptatonic scale that you know .

1,2,3,4,5

1,2,3,4,6

1,2,3,4,7

1,2,3,5,6

1,2,3,6,7

1,2,3,5,7

1,2,3,6,7

1,2,4,5,6

1,2,4,5,7

1,2,4,6,7

1,2,5,6,7

1,3,4,5,6

1,3,4,5,7

1,3,4,6,7

1,3,5,6,7

1,4,5,6,7

And now let's improvise with the pentatonics ;) .

[DemonSorcerer]

Good point, kiddo...

I once looked at the "pentatonic" scale concept...and it said...scale cointaining 5 different tones...It's too bad that most people tend to use the standard, 1 b3 4 5 b7 pentatonic and its major form 1 2 3 5 6...but as the definition says...5 notes...why can't we take a group of five notes... i mean, any notes and come with our own Pentatonic scales?? There are many pentatonic scales out there, Eastern music has some clever and nice examples...just take the scale that Marty Friedman uses a lot in his playing...1 2 b3 5 6b...pretty japanese sounding...he also has this peculiar one...1 2 b3 5 6....

So the point is...if we have the whole chromatic scale to bum around and find our own, different scales...why do we have to keep playing the standard pentatonic?? just think about this... 1 3 4 5 b7...that one is right in between of an Arpeggio and a Pentatonic...it has 5 tones, but just check the sound of it...;) what about this one?? 1 3 #4 5 b7?? Pretty exotic sounding, as it contains the sharp 4th and flat seventh...

Those are just two random examples that pop into my mind at this very moment...but there's still more to check out...Be sure to come up with your own pentatonic scales and share them with the rest of the community!!

Keep going, kiddo...

David

[Los Boleros]

Lets try posting some stuff with these weird pentatonic scales and see if it sounds good. The ear is the final judge.

[DemonSorcerer]

There's the formula for those 2 pentatonic scales...if anyone wants to try them and listen to them, they can figure it out by using the formula to play the scale...you can try too, Los Boleros!! I posted the formula for everyone in the community!! I'm jsut too lazy at this moment to create a few examples, buddy...but hey... I LOVE SHARING!!!

Enjoy!

David

[Los Boleros]

There's the formula for those 2 pentatonic scales...if anyone wants to try them and listen to them, they can figure it out by using the formula to play the scale...you can try too, Los Boleros!! I posted the formula for everyone in the community!! I'm jsut too lazy at this moment to create a few examples, buddy...but hey... I LOVE SHARING!!!

Enjoy!

DavidI have. I have tried and listened with open ears but so far all I hear is riffs that may be used under certain content, not anything that I would call a scale, merely a group of chosen notes. If I was to try and solo over a progression, I don't see how any of these examples could provide pleasing results for more than one phrase here and there. Unless there is something that I am not seeing (or hearing) here, it seems that this thread may not be good information for the readers.

[DemonSorcerer]

I have. I have tried and listened with open ears but so far all I hear is riffs that may be used under certain content, not anything that I would call a scale, merely a group of chosen notes.

Oh, my friend...

I don't wanna be rude or harsh or anything at you...but it IS a scale...it's not my fault that you can't see it (you just said it) as a scale...bear in mind the theorical concept of a SCALE...

"An ascending or descending collection of pitches proceeding by a specified scheme of intervals." ----As found in www.dictionary.com

I gave the specified scheme of intervals when i proposed the formulas...those formulas gave us an ascending or descending collection of pitches ...so are they really scales??

So i guess it's not my fault that you can't see the blue sky above you, buddy...*sighs* sorry if i was harsh at you, but that wasn't not the real intention...

David

[Los Boleros]

The litteral definition of a scale or even a pentatonic scale would not exclude any five notes from being called a scale. Heck you could take any of the twelve cromatic notes and even include some out of tune notes and call it a scale But is it worth teaching? The young readers are very impessionable. I could just see the posting of threads like, "How many hours should I be practicing the Locrian Pentatonic Scale.". The reason we use pentotonic scales is that we write music in major or minor keys. Using a minor pentatonic in a minor key gets us use to the beautiful skips of the diatonic scale that make melodies sound harmonic. Same goes for the major pentatonic scale. When it comes to modes, we use a system of seven notes to have all the harmonic possibilities. We could at any time play a line, any line of just five notes but I would rather tend to think that we selected those particular notes for a melodic reason. And the next melody could use different notes. I derive all my solos mostly from seven and eight note scales but also love cromatic lines here and there. I do not play in a linear stile therefore my melodies always have fewer than the full scale. Tell me really, do think this justifies calling these new scales? :rolleyes:

[DemonSorcerer]

Good point there, COLEGA...;)

but even if we don't want it, there are some situations that we must take for granted and accept them as they come...even if we come and pick up 8 or seven different notes withing an octave (12 semitones) in a random fashion, we'll end up with a scales...

I know that the younger reader are quite easy to impress, but i guess that's not my fault...not even yours...it's nobody's fault...but hey...if they are here, reading our post, they're learning, and i gues they want to learn...if they wouldn't want to learn, why are they here, logging on Ibreathe?? Think about that, buddy...

Fue un placer haber compartido unas palabras con un hermano...

David

[Toni Lloret]

Hola David (DemonSorcerer), perdona que no te aclare las dudas pero el Ingles todavia me resulta muy dificil de leer y más aun de expresarme con el :( .

Si me haces la pregunta en Español quizás pueda ayudarte ;) .
Un saludo :) .

[DemonSorcerer]

No hay problema, Toni...me dirijia a nuestro amigo LosBoleros, que es colega y un hermano latino como yo...no te preocupes!!

David

[Los Boleros]

Mi Espanol es muy mal.
voy a intetar a esplicar lo.
Yo no pienso que es una buena idea hablar de pentatonic escallas como cual qier cinco notas asen una escala differente.
ohala me entiedes.
El problem es que los jobenes te van a creer Y empesar a tocar cosas que no suenan bien Y pensar que es una escala nueva.
Si ay unas cosas que suenan bien pero no todas. Yo creo que es mejor enseniar melodies y ideas melodicas y esplicarlas como eso, "melodias y ideas melodicas". No como escalas. Tambien es buena idea incluir un MP3 de las ideas para que se aprende como es que tu estas usando esta idea. Si yo te digo toce estas cinco notes, tu no sabes como yo las estoy tocando y talves no te va sonar bien a ti pro a mi si. MP3, eso ayuda bastante. Yo ise un thread que se llama "Post your favorite riffs". Es un buen lugar para enseniar melodies y ideas melodicas. ;)

[theox]

Talkin' about pentatonics, I'm in love with 1 b3 5 6 b7.

[DemonSorcerer]

Mi Espanol es muy mal.
voy a intetar a esplicar lo.
Yo no pienso que es una buena idea hablar de pentatonic escallas como cual qier cinco notas asen una escala differente.
ohala me entiedes.
El problem es que los jobenes te van a creer Y empesar a tocar cosas que no suenan bien Y pensar que es una escala nueva.
Si ay unas cosas que suenan bien pero no todas. Yo creo que es mejor enseniar melodies y ideas melodicas y esplicarlas como eso, "melodias y ideas melodicas". No como escalas. Tambien es buena idea incluir un MP3 de las ideas para que se aprende como es que tu estas usando esta idea. Si yo te digo toce estas cinco notes, tu no sabes como yo las estoy tocando y talves no te va sonar bien a ti pro a mi si. MP3, eso ayuda bastante. Yo ise un thread que se llama "Post your favorite riffs". Es un buen lugar para enseniar melodies y ideas melodicas. ;)

SUPERB, FANTASTIC, AWESOME Spanish try and explaining...for someone who doesn't seem to speak it very, very well at all...Congrats, LosBoleros!!!!!
I'm sorry for putting you in that difficult spanish situation, but again, i thought you were latin..."Afro-cuban TUMBAO"...you know what tumbao is?? hahahaha!!! NVM!!

Talking about scales...be it pentatonic or something else...it doesn't matter if the scale itself doesn't make any sense to our ears...it will be a scale anyways...for a random example, just check the whole tone scale...it's soooo weird, so un-melodic, no senseless...also the dimished scale falls in this same category for me...but even if they're senseless...they're going to be scales...just because there's an intervalic formula/scheme that gave us that serie of different, ascending or descending pitches...

Think about it...;) and practice your spanish...you're on the right path!!!

David

[Buebo]

Hi Toni,
just wanna say that I registered on your site and watched some videos. Crazy stuff!!
I´m really motivated to work on my technique some more :).
Thanks for sharing all this!

Greets, Buebo.

[axe_man_oli]

I just stumbled into this place, and its like your all talking in a foreign language. I got Spanish so far, but theres another I can't quite put my finger on.


Oh wait, my bad, its music theory....:D

[Los Boleros]

SUPERB, FANTASTIC, AWESOME Spanish try and explaining...for someone who doesn't seem to speak it very, very well at all...Congrats, LosBoleros!!!!!
I'm sorry for putting you in that difficult spanish situation, but again, i thought you were latin..."Afro-cuban TUMBAO"...you know what tumbao is?? hahahaha!!! NVM!!
Spanish, I can get by speaking it, Don't know how to write it but can sing it ok. Practice, practice, practice, I practice my parts with a pencil under my tongue.:)
Talking about scales...be it pentatonic or something else...it doesn't matter if the scale itself doesn't make any sense to our ears...it will be a scale anyways...for a random example, just check the whole tone scale...it's soooo weird, so un-melodic, no senseless...also the dimished scale falls in this same category for me...but even if they're senseless...they're going to be scales...just because there's an intervalic formula/scheme that gave us that serie of different, ascending or descending pitches...

Think about it...;) and practice your spanish...you're on the right path!!!

DavidI hear you, really I do but I still have this feeling that it's wrong to just call something a scale when it could just be a melody. Any set of random notes within a major scale might sound really kool! Incredibly kool! Freaking killer also but is it a scale or just a melody? Maybe its a riff that only sounds good over a certain set of chords so if heard out of context, it would be weird. In the right context, great. But is it a scale or just the right notes from a complete scale?

Take this one for example:
Talkin' about pentatonics, I'm in love with 1 b3 5 6 b7.Now this one really sings! doesn't it?:) A scale?:confused: Sounds to me like a nice Dorian melody. :cool: This is what studying the modes is all about.
Any riff that includes a 1,3 & 5 is gonna sound harmonic in any mode.
This is the essence of melody. Is it a scale? The mode that it in is a scale. The key it is in is a scale. At what point do you select a scale and at what point do you get to use it? I mean select the proper notes. Maybe I am being picky here and maybe this doesn't really matter. But maybe it does matter. I mean we have alot on our plate with learning music from every angle we can to ultimately get it. Learning about chords, modes, melodies, harmony etc, etc. Do we need more scales than the following scales?
Major/minor
Major/minor the seven modes for each
Major/minor pentatonics
Major/minor pentatonics blues
Harmonic minor/ Melodic minor
Diminished
Cromatic / whole-tone

At what point do we say that's enough now lets find something kool to play?:rolleyes:

[Toni Lloret]

Major/minor
Major/minor the seven modes for each
Major/minor pentatonics
Major/minor pentatonics blues
Harmonic minor/ Melodic minor
Diminished
Cromatic / whole-tone
D´ont Forget the Tritonic, tetratonic, pentatonic, hexatonic & octotonic scales, but that is another history :p

[Toni Lloret]

Hi Toni,
just wanna say that I registered on your site and watched some videos. Crazy stuff!!
I´m really motivated to work on my technique some more :).
Thanks for sharing all this!

Greets, Buebo.Thanks Buebo :)

[DemonSorcerer]

Time to put an end to thos loooooooooong thread and IMHP needless discussion...i have this old guitar for the practising musician mag around...somewhere in my room...it has this article about crazy pentatonic scales...some variations you can achieve by altering the fingering of the "box" pattern to get new pentatonic sounds...i think it was written by Jon Finn or someone equally respectable, i think...i'll try to find it and make a scan of it and post it in the forum....WORD.

David