Underrated Technique MONSTERS

[DemonSorcerer]

Ok, let's admit it...everyone in this Forum digs on Paul Gilbert, Yngwie, Vai and John Petrucci...they're great players who have changed the technical aspect of the guitar and have taken it a few steps beyond...

But there are, of course, several guitarists that definitely have insane...and i mean INSANE chops and technique...For example, legato/fingerpicking master Brett Garsed...gotta check his seamless legato runs...plus, they're tasteful and melodic, not just boring, up/down scale sequences...there's also his partner in crime, Mr. T.J. Helmerich...besides being one of the best Studio Engineer (he runs the RAP in Musician's Institute), he's got some wild, almost-impossible-to-imitate 8 finger tapping licks and wide intervals...really smooooooooooth sounding, and very, very dynamic...

Then we have this guy called Michael Lee Firkins...his playing is great, and showcases a mastery of almost any style...he plays blues, shred, country-based licks, neoclassical, EVERYTHING...he's a monster player that really has a few tricks under his sleeve (Did i mention that he recorded all the guitar parts in a song for Jason Becker?? the song's called The End of the Beginning!!)

Then we have the almost forgotten, but what i think it's the best guitar duo in guitar history...Marty Friedman and Jason Becker...those guys can really make you think about why are you playing guitar, specially Jason Becker...unusual japanese-sounding licks, mind-boggling sweep arpeggios and neat harmonies are several of their trademarks...

There's also this Australian guy (along with Frank Gambale and Brett Garsed) called Chris Brooks...GOD!! you gotta check his album...that's what i call PROGRESSIVE guitar music...the production for this album was superb, the guitar tone deserves the word KILLER and the chops/technical apect...is something that has to be heard to be believed.

So...i don't know what to think...it's just a lack of promotion?? because that can be a pain, specially if you're on the beginning of your musical career...or maybe it's because they're...out of date?? or it's just because they aren't good enough at guitar playing?? or it's because people haven't heard of them?? if so, i encourage you guys to give those guys a listen...you won't be dissapointed...

David

[EricV]

David

Thanks for the post. I am familiar with the players you mentioned.
Brett G. was my instructor at the MI, and I saw him play live there a few times, together with TJ. They´re indeed amazing players, very creative and unique, and also wonderful people.

Michael Lee FIrkins... I have 4 of his solo albums ( I dont even know whether he released a 5th one after "Decomposition" ). Also a very unique guy, and just like Greg Howe, he was one of the very few guys on the Shrapnel label who didn´t play neoclassical stuff, which was nice to hear. I still enjoy his first album, and especially the tune "Trinity Road" from "Chapter Eleven". He reminded me of Jeff Beck a lot.
Great combination of bluesy, tasteful and melodic playing mixed with awesome chops. His solo-work in "End Of The Beginning" is beautiful

Cacophony... Very impressive playing on there, and it was cool that they even managed to pull it off live. I enjoyed their respective solo-work even more, like Marty´s "Introduction" and "Scenes" albums, and Jason´s "Perspective", which is simply beautiful

Chris Brooks... he even used to hang out at the ibreathe forums a few times a while ago. Nice guy. I have his album, and he reminds me a lot of Vinnie Moore. He has a very nice tone, and sure has great chops.

Anyway, why aren´t those players more popular ? Well, they are, kind of. In the "guitarscene", people know them quite well. They´re doing mainly instructional stuff, and lots of people still talk about them.
Other than that, its the usual thing... their music just isn´t mass-compatible enough, or doesn´t get the promo it should get to BE more mass-compatible. I mean, imagine you switch on MTV, and after Snoop Doggy´s new vid, and before the new Jennifer Lopez-clip, you see a video-clip of "Speed Metal Symphony" by Cacophony.
Sure, shred-fans would rejoice, but it just wouldn´t work for most people.

It´s "eclectic listening", I guess. Made for a certain, smaller audience, and not meant to be promoted like artists such as Britney, X-tina or whoever else is successful right now.
Some of the music of those guys is meant to be for guitar-fans, and so it was clear it wouldn´t reach far.
Satch got a nice amount of airplay in the 80s and early 90s with tunes like "Satch Boogie", "Always...", "Crying" But if you check out those tunes... well, they´re mainly melodic. Sure, they have some shredding, but also, they have great,jingle-like melodies and riffs, and therefor work well for the radio. Still, even though the music scene was a bit different back then, no one expected them to hit No.1 on the billboard charts.
And I assume Chris Brooks, Brett G., TJ and Michael Lee don´t expect high chart positions or millions of dollars in merchandise income either. I have a copy of the Garsed / Helmerich album "Excempt", and I asked Brett whether he´d try to get the rights for that one to get it published again. He told me that he´s trying, but wont be able to for a while, and said that he doent mind people sharing it right now, at least the music is spread that way.
Anyway, among guitarists, those guys are heroes, and pretty well-known ( at least among musicians who listen to that kind of stuff ), but in the general public, there aint much chance that they´re gonna be on the cover of Hitparader any time soon =)
Eric

[Bizarro]

In my experience, there are guys with incredible chops in every single town you go to. I've seen dozens in Seattle alone. Satriani was a guy in a cover band until he made it big. Not everyone is going to be famous, but that doesn't mean the talent isn't out there.

[salsainglesa]

If you dig into the Jazz scene, there are, and were amazing players. Particularly I like Django Reinhardt, Joe Pass and West Montgomery. And theis last two guys made impresive use of the solo guitar... Imagine dont needing anyone else?
Thinkings like: What? a Bass player? what for I can handle the bass, and a singer? no man, I play my own lines.. I am nearly a guitar god... Or well, maybe they were down to earth people...
ALso Al di Meola is impresive because of his versatility, he plays actually everything! from Jazz, to classical fingerpicking to shreding and funk and whatever! I think of him as a pinacle in guitar understanding.
Who else? uhmmm... Paco de Lucia ;) and the Romero Bros

[moon shadow]

Has anyone heard of Danny Gatton? That guy was a monster. He was called "Master of the Telecaster."

[SkinnyDevil]

Yes Gatton was amazing.

It's also worth noting that some of those guys are extremely succesful even though they lack mainstream exposure. Vai's "Astoria" DVD has sold a million copies in the US alone (which was released on FN - see those dollar signs, yet?), but Mark Akin (who would definitely be in the "under-appreciated" category) is probably the biggest selling indy artist on earth, even if you've never heard of him. He's the guy who does clinics with Jennifer Batten and plays guitar on TV & video games (DragonBall-Z, anyone?).

Sure, it would be great to see some of those folks on TV & hear them on the radio, but that's just an example of mainstream success. Lots of those folks are doing quite well with CDs, DVDs, instructional materials, tours, clinics, and the like.

To directly respond, however, maybe it's a matter of image. Lots of those guys work on the music exclusively, while folks like Vai & Satch are very image oriented as well....

[satch_master]

gerge bellas, amazing shred player, great sweeps. neoclassical sounding.
and then for the monsters, i dont know 2 many underground guitar players but www.chopsfromhell.com should have most of them there. rusty cooley and francesco fraio both have wicked sweeping, legato and when they alternate pick its so fast i doesnt sound like a guitar, sounds like a pinball machine. im in no way saying these players are great guitar players cause i dont think so, but technique wise they chop me you, even satch lol. cause there so ****en fast, but thats all there got flashy technique. songwriting skills 0 %, sense of melody 0 %, speed 200% lol.

[Arpetude]

www.chopsfromhell.com (http://www.chopsfromhell.com/)..... songwriting skills 0 %, sense of melody 0 %, speed 200% lol.
yeah the majority of them are great. but rusty cooley and franceso fareri are what i call 'extreme shredding' when yngwie is 'neo-classical shred' etc.

when you get get a PG instructional they can be string skipping arps but played an etude (instructional meterial that has a musical context) an Apretude to be exact.;)

but the cooley/fareri ones are like . ok STRING SKIPPING - AT THE FASTEST POSSIBLE TEMPO. then the next technique at the ..... you get the idea. these guys sold there soul along time ago.

i hope cooley plays some other stuff besides shred. or else hes going straight to hell.lol

the only underground guys i know is the same as you CFH.

[Unhorizon]

I don't understand the CFH guys. They don't seem to understand a thing about music (not all, some). They seem to think the faster they play, the better they are. Technically this is true, but their "music" is incredibly dull. It's all the same sextuplet sequence up and down the neck at 138 bpm, and its getting quite old.

[Los Boleros]

I will have to admit, you guys have named some intense musicians and I have to concur to their viruosity. However, I feel there is alot more to music than the Solo project of any one musician. The entire composition to me is more important than the solo. When ever I hear a great guitarist on the Radio, I am the first one to say, "Turn it Up!" however, if you try and play half a CD of Ingwy, I will be the first to say, "That's Enough!" .

Although this forum is a music forum, It has somehow attracted mostly guitarists. This is Sad but true. Guitarists are gonna flock to the ultra guitar hero. I remember one time I opened up for Robin Trower and the entire audience was all Guitar players wearing leather. That was a tough crowd! = ).
My point is, What makes one musician better than another? is it speed runs? is it killer arpegios? is it that most of your audience is young guitarists? I wonder. Compare Yngwy Malmsteen to Willie Nelson. Ingwy definately blows Willies doors on Sweeping arpegios and Harmonic Minor but does that make him better? Willie Nelson on the other hand can sing and writes music. I would guese that 100 times more people in the world know Willie Nelson over Ingwy Malmsteen.

This is just a rough comparison. I hope you see where I am going with this. If the majority of the people in the world think that Santana is the best Guitarists, then isn't he? After all musical taste is subjective but you cannot ignore the masses. they must account for something.

[Dommy]

http://www.spikesbigadventure.com/

Check out the videos section. Some killer chops there...check it out.

[JohnJumper]

What about classical players like Chrisopher Parkening and John Williams. Nobody here talks about classical guitar on this site...Why is that? I saw Chrisopher Parkening in concert here and was seated about 15 feet away from him and it was amazing. You watch him play and anything Satriani plays on an acoustic guitar looks like a joke!! :D So since we are talking about underrated technique MONSTERS those guys should be right in there!!!!

(Seeing if I can stir up some discussion!!)

[satch_master]

http://www.spikesbigadventure.com/

Check out the videos section. Some killer chops there...check it out.
wow, man that is such a kool site, its got lots and lots of rare jazz guitar videos. check it out man. seriously cool.

[silent-storm]

It always amazes me that people looking for monster technique have usually never heard of Jimmy Bruno.

Jazz yes, but as close to technical perfection as you can possibly get. In my oppinion once he came along the guitar officially reached it's physical peak...you can't play any faster then Jimmy Bruno. On a side note, the guitar is probably one of the last instruments out there to reach it's physical peak.*end of side note* Bruno can play runs on a huge archtop, completely clean, using monster strings, soooo insanely fast that you can't tell the notes apart...and then there's his sweep picking...

Jimmy Bruno is the only guy I've ever heard that I've said to myself, "I don't know how that is physically possible." Every shredder I've ever heard is insanely fast...but I can always in some way conceptualize what he is doing...not so with some of Bruno's stuff.

[se_12121]

Hey,

IMO,Rusty has real talent but chooses an intense style just like PG/Yngwie maybe he's a bit too mmuch som,etimes but really he has got melodic ability. Dark Matter is a great track showing melody as well as chops.

Anyone know David Gallegos? My dad bought his CD caus it was playing in a shop and sounded good. He plays classical/Flamenco (?) really well and has chops yet he is unkown to me.

There are so many great players people dont know with melody and chops.

Paul Clark a guy from England a family friend knows does great sacth covers and writes his own progressive material.

Lots of talent out there, but not enough markety for it.

Popular music today = 10% talent + 90% Image(IMO)

Sean

[nuclear81]

most underrated guys??? Hmm i'd have to say Hendrix isn't given enough credit. Also that Jimmy Page guy played for some popular band in the 70's didn't he? i heard he's pretty good.:D

[silent-storm]

I'm sure this could start a fight...so lets not get our panties in a twist after you read this post...it's just my personal oppinion, not yours.

Hendrix and Page are 2 of the most overrated guitarists out there.

Sure they were inovative, but there were dozens of guys that could've done the same thing, but were either not in quite as good of a situation or came along 6 months to a year after the fact.

[flathead]

most underrated guys??? Hmm i'd have to say Hendrix isn't given enough credit. Also that Jimmy Page guy played for some popular band in the 70's didn't he? i heard he's pretty good.:D


?? Yeah Hendrix is never given any credit, I mean he's never at the top or at least in the top 3 of any 'Best/Most influential Guitarist' list. :rolleyes: But the thread is called 'underrated technique monsters' and there ain't no way Jimmy Page could be labelled a technique monster.

[Mateo150]

I'm sure this could start a fight...so lets not get our panties in a twist after you read this post...it's just my personal oppinion, not yours.

Hendrix and Page are 2 of the most overrated guitarists out there.

Sure they were inovative, but there were dozens of guys that could've done the same thing, but were either not in quite as good of a situation or came along 6 months to a year after the fact.
I agree with you on Page, but Hendrix? Yes sometimes I hear some Hendrix live clips, and errr, some parts make me squint a little. But really, as far as the music goes, no way he's overrated. At that time period, with his stature, there's no way you should put him in the dark quite yet. Sure others could have physically played what he did, but thats not really the point. He had the vision to make that music. Some of his stuff is damn hard to play too, with all the little nuiances, really, his stuff isn't exactly easy. People who say its easy really haven't learned it note for note. Spanish Castle Magic, Castles Made of Sand, Night Bird Flying... really these songs are great. Maybe they aren't super technically difficult, but I disagree that there were plenty of other people all over the place who could have done stuff like that, the avant garde cannot be duplicated so easily. Its only after the fact that it becomes passe.

[EricV]

Mateo,

I actually agree that Hendrix is underrated. Not back then, but these days. I see a lot of young players check him out, and they go "Ugh, his guitar is outta tune, he doesn´t sweep, what´s so special about him ?" I am not kidding, either.
I think it´s hard these days to see just how much of an impact Jimi had back then, and how much of an influence he was. Also, even though, technically, his solos might not be as impressive technique-wise like, say, a Vai-solo ( and we have to remember the kind of gear available in the late 60s ), he did some amazingly new and bold stuff.
I also think a lot of people focus too much on his lead-work and ignore the fact that he a) was a killer rhythm-player ( considering his groove, the fact that he doubled his vocal lines on the guitar, and the chordal stuff he did on "Little Wing" and other songs ) and b) also was a great songwriter... the chords and melodies in "Angel", "Castles Made Of Sand", "Axis Bold As Love", "Little Wing" amo. still is beautiful imo, and seems to be forgotten abotu a lot these days.
Of course, I can see where those young players are coming from... sometimes, it might be confusing or simply disappointing to hear your first Hendrix-song after listening to Satch, Shawn Lane, Petrucci, Vai and others. It might take some time. Of course, some people might never like his music ( after all, it´s stilla matter of taste ). But I sometimes get sad when I read people post "Man, I checked out a Hendrix albu,m for the first time, and dude... the guitar sounds horrible, and it´s all boring..."
Just my opinion though
Eric

[Mateo150]

Tell ya the truth I never really liked Hendrix until I started playing guitar. But I think every good guitar player has at least a couple Hendrix songs note for note in their bag. Of course I saw this and started listening to the guy. I find his chordal/rhythm stuff fairly challenging, and it takes me a week or more to really learn one his songs with nuiances, and another couple weeks to remember it all (or else I forget it and I start imposing my crapply rhythm work into it, just playing the notes), if the song only has one guitar part. I can't sing and play his songs at the same time either, a really good point. You really have to be comfortable you have to be with the guitar and singing to be able to pull off a lot of his songs. He's underappreciated by a lot of people these days I think. Its not exactly cool in High School to be the music kid who plays Hendrix, I mean, there may be 30 people in your HS playing guitar, and most of em play metal, or punk, or whatever, and theres a couple good ones who play Hendrix, Doors, Led Zep, etc... while all the non-music kids listen to whatever, probably not that stuff. His 60's style lyrics often don't fly with a lot of people, sometimes when I'm chilling with people I put it on and have to take it off 3 songs into it and put on something else. I think its kind of an evolution, I mean Hendrix was kind of the first guitar "virtuoso" (not really but...), who set their guitar on fire, played with their teeth, played behind their head, and just kinda went crazy before him. Now its the 2nd generation of virtuosos, the Vais, Vaughns, Satchs, etc who are IT.
Also, I think Hendrix's stuff is a much better concept in terms of playing in/with a band. Meeting up with a group for the first time and saying, well can you guys play this repetitive Dm, Am7 goove and I'll lay this shreding Vai solo... or Lets jam on Red House... I know what the person I want to play with.

Last point, I'm currently working on cleaning up "Wait until tommorrow" off the Axis Bold as Love Album, and damn, some of those parts are really tricky, especially keeping the bass note ringing with the thumb while playing the chord vamp beneath it. This style kills my hand (makes it really sore if I practice it exclusively) but its really not easy and makes for great solo stuff. With just an acoustic and your voice, you can have a reallly full sound with this lead/rhythm style that you really can't get shredding, or just strumming chords.

Anyway, if you think Hendrix is overrated, learn some of his songs faithfully, if you still think he's overrated, hats off to ya.

[satch_master]

well this post had just tunrned into a hendrix battle lol. basically its EVOLUTION, i believe that in another 40 years the guitar will be brought up another nothch and the bar will be raised just like yngwie raised it in the 80's. but when it comes to good old blues solos no one beats the classics, page, hendrix, clapton etc.
just watch malmsteen do a cover of purple haze or red house, he totally ****s the solos with tapping and shred. you cant do that stuff, its evil. wrecks the soul of the music.

[Mateo150]

just watch malmsteen do a cover of purple haze or red house, he totally ****s the solos with tapping and shred. you cant do that stuff, its evil. wrecks the soul of the music.
Wow, I thought you loved anything with shreds in it. I hate it when shred heads cover Red House and songs like that, It loses a lot in my opinion.

[Arpetude]

in the g3 live in denver dvd.


they cover little wing and at the solo

yngwie - does tons of sweeps (actually misses one note! - he is still human lol)

vai - does his amazing legato when he puts his RH on the nut of the guitar - sounds beutiful.

satch - goes more rythmically with very little sweeps.

when they covered that i thought it was amazing!. really improved over the original. especially the vai solo, when i saw that i thought 'wow....only vai could make it sound that good'.

what cover should rusty cooley do?

i don't want to know.!:eek:

[nuclear81]

I'm sure just about everyone in here reads Guitar1 mag every month, and like (i'm assuming) some of you it has gotten me into listening to other musicians I otherwise would not have. In the last issue they talk a lot about Zakk Wylde (long time fan) but also Alexi Laiho of Children of Bodom. This guy is 25yrs old and can rip apart solos like nothing. If he is still around in 10yrs he will be the next eveolutionary step for the guitar. That guy has so much tallent it's humbling.

[curiousgeorge]

in the g3 live in denver dvd.


they cover little wing and at the solo

yngwie - does tons of sweeps (actually misses one note! - he is still human lol)

vai - does his amazing legato when he puts his RH on the nut of the guitar - sounds beutiful.

satch - goes more rythmically with very little sweeps.

when they covered that i thought it was amazing!. really improved over the original. especially the vai solo, when i saw that i thought 'wow....only vai could make it sound that good'.

what cover should rusty cooley do?

i don't want to know.!:eek:

Let's all pray that Rusty turns to another instrument. He can play fast, but who want's to listen to that non-musical garbage? I wonder if he knows any chords....

[rmuscat]

I'm sure just about everyone in here reads Guitar1 mag every month, and like (i'm assuming) some of you it has gotten me into listening to other musicians I otherwise would not have. In the last issue they talk a lot about Zakk Wylde (long time fan) but also Alexi Laiho of Children of Bodom. This guy is 25yrs old and can rip apart solos like nothing. If he is still around in 10yrs he will be the next eveolutionary step for the guitar. That guy has so much tallent it's humbling.

sooooooooo awesome-ly true!!! he's incredible!

as for the bashings ... lets avoid them guys plz plz **on his knees**

edit: arpetude i know you're relatively new here ... just pointing out to you to take it easy on putting judgments on other players and make sure you word it in such a way to specify its just a personal opinion. I don't think you are really qualified to tell what cooley is able to do (of course i could be wrong). and don't take this as a personal attack just trying outline how the forum works - like adults hopefully.

[Mateo150]

Let's all pray that Rusty turns to another instrument. He can play fast, but who want's to listen to that non-musical garbage? I wonder if he knows any chords....
Yeah, its really a taste thing, some people want to be "guitar gods". Thats not really my thing but a lot of players seem to get off on it. I don't listen to a lot of those guys who have their own name in the band, I mean, damn, thats saying something already about the music and the mindset of the performers. Theres exeptions of course, and I really like Satriani, plays that shred style but more tastefully than others of that genre. I actually don't read any guitar mags, Zack Wylde, Ok. I'll download a couple songs cuz I'll listen to just about anything once. Been on a Allman bros, Skynard, Zappa kick lately, maybe this will be another exeption to the rule.

[nuclear81]

Oh, how could I forget John Frusciante from the REd Hot Chili Peppers. That guy is amazing. I've seen them live several times and he comes up with some amazing solos and hardly ever even has to look at what he's doing. That whole band has incredible tallent (too bad they have been wasting it with their last 2 albums)

[Arpetude]

edit: arpetude i know you're relatively new here ... just pointing out to you to take it easy on putting judgments on other players and make sure you word it in such a way to specify its just a personal opinion. I don't think you are really qualified to tell what cooley is able to do (of course i could be wrong). and don't take this as a personal attack just trying outline how the forum works - like adults hopefully.
its cool.:)

i wasn't basing other players.

or was i?, who?, :confused:

other people are bashing cooley!.:mad:

can i retaliate!:D

what is cooley able to do. more like.......what is cooley not able to do.lol

[oRg]

Hendrix is awesome. He reinvented the way guitar was supposed to be played IMO. I seen a video of him playing at Woodstock and at the Fillmore and it was just amazing. If anyone person can fully connect spiritually and emotionally with an instrument I'd have to say Hendrix is the closest, even thought Vai is right behind him...lol.

[flathead]

Let's all pray that Rusty turns to another instrument. He can play fast, but who want's to listen to that non-musical garbage? I wonder if he knows any chords....


<raises hand> I want to listen to it, and do listen to it regularly

[Arpetude]

cooley knows tons of chords. but he tends to play each note of the chord individually and 'sweep' the broken chord - making it an arp!.

but when you can sweep pick arps at 200bpm+ you find it hard to 'go back' to strumming indie rock 3-chords lol. :)

when it comes to posting video clips of yourself/making instrucional DVDs it 'more or less' HAS to be geared towards shred imo. unless your eric johnston or something like that (someone who is famous but doesn't need to shred to be known).

but if your an 'average guy'( NOT SAYING COOLEY IS AVERAGE - just more that he is not really famous) you release shred instructionals not 'chord' instructionals.

so i'm guesing he can do more than shred. all i know is that he basically learned most of the shred licks from the 'reh' instructional series when he was between the ages of 17 - 19 the became a private teacher and has been teaching ever since that age.but now hes something like 40 and has really changed shred quite alot. he probably got bored of it later down the line. it is possible that he ONLY played shred between the ages of 19 - 39 but i think the mind would melt do to over-wanking.

[Len H]

I guess the question is are we talking about underrated or unknown technique monsters? I think of an underrated player as one whose technique doesn't necessarily jump out at you after one or two songs, but after further listening, you realize the level he or she is playing at. I think two examples of guitarists who go underappreciated are Uli Jon Roth and Frank Marino. Both were heavily influenced by Hendrix, and so they get lumped into the "Hendrix Clone" category. This is unfair and incorrect. Uli Jon Roth, in my opinion, is the perfect blend of musicality and technique. His playing has come a long way since his early Scorpions days (not that it wasn't great then), incorporating classical elements into his playing . Using his 7 string 30+ fret "Sky Guitar", he can blend blazing speed, vibrato, dynamics, and a terrific sense of melody to shred without shredding; it always sounds musical and I never get the idea that he is ripping up the fretboard just to show how fast he can play.

Frank Marino is more rooted in blues and rock, although his improvisational style leans slightly toward jazz. He also can come up with beautiful melodies such as the "World Anthem", but his pyrotechnic playing is what stands out. I don't know if anyone can match him playing 2nps pentatonic blues licks. And he did the best version of "Purple Haze" that I have heard on his live album from the late 70s.

Oh, I almost forgot, with the mentions of Page and Hendrix, I have to mention one more, a contemporary of Jimmy and Jimi, who had superior technique: Ritchie Blackmore. You don't have to listen to his later Deep Purple work like "Highway Star" or "Burn", or his playing in Rainbow to hear unbelievable playing; check out his chops in live versions of "Wring That Neck" from 1969 or 1970. Hendrix, Page, Clapton, or Beck were all great, but Ritchie was in a different class.

[curiousgeorge]

<raises hand> I want to listen to it, and do listen to it regularly

<grabs flathead's hand and puts it back> Why? Is that the only CD available at the music store?:)

[EricV]

Prolly because he likes it, and because that is his opinion.
I dont listen to Rustys CD often, but when I feel in the mood for some extreme stuff, I lusten to it. His goal was to be as extreme as possible, go to the limit when it comes to speed.
He is a very nice guy, and he sure can play other stuff. I am sure he´ll show that off in the future. Check out the interview Ricky G. did with him over at the Jemfest site ( www.jemfest.com , click on Radio & TV )
His music might not be for everyone, but it does appeal to some people, and I can see why. Considering that his goal was to make it as extreme as possible, I think he achieved that goal.
Just my opinion though
Eric

[Mateo150]

I listened to "Bad Religion" when I was 13 years old.... and crap like that... hehe. I had a 4 or 5 month phase when I was playing guitar for a couple years of listening to the shredders, Vai, Satch, Johnson, etc... short lived infatuation but I'm glad I listened to all that stuff, gives good perspective.

[UltimaRage]

Hmm... I think there is no such thing as a guitarist being better than another guitarist. It's all preference. After a point, of course. I think experience is the greatest technique a guitarist can acquire. Compositions by Yngwie can be very emotionally-impacting, just as one of Jimi Hendrix's songs can. Most shredders don't shred just because they can- they shred because that is how they emotionally express himself. Yngwie has stated this in many interviews, and has also said that he has cried during solos, which would seem a little extreme to us, but it just goes to show how into the music anyone can be.

[curiousgeorge]

Prolly because he likes it, and because that is his opinion.
I dont listen to Rustys CD often, but when I feel in the mood for some extreme stuff, I lusten to it. His goal was to be as extreme as possible, go to the limit when it comes to speed.
He is a very nice guy, and he sure can play other stuff. I am sure he´ll show that off in the future. Check out the interview Ricky G. did with him over at the Jemfest site ( www.jemfest.com , click on Radio & TV )
His music might not be for everyone, but it does appeal to some people, and I can see why. Considering that his goal was to make it as extreme as possible, I think he achieved that goal.
Just my opinion though
Eric

Fair enough, however, picking up a guitar for the sole purpose of seeing how fast you can play it, without any forethought of making music is just ridiculous. Hey, I'm going to pour glue all over my fretboard, put on some thick ski gloves, then play the fifth caprice in it's entirety while trying to sing Bohemian Rhapsody at the same time. That's extreme. People will love it.......

[EricV]

If that is what you wanna do, then go for it.
He didnt pick up the guitar for the sole purpose of being fast, and he never said so. He picked up the guitar because he was attracted by it, and was soon intrigued by "Street lethal", Yngwie Malmsteen and others.
Thats what he is focussing on, and there are people who like to listen to that stuff and his take on it. And the ones who don´tlike it... well, there´s plenty of other music.
I have said it before, and Ill say it again ( just my opinion, keep that in mind ): people who ionvest that much time in practicing the guitar, IMO, do have a deep love for the instrument, too. I dont think someone would be able to practice many hours every day for years just to impress his friends or whomever. There is a love for the instrument involved there. And if that person decides that he or she enjoys to play fast, break away from the "formula" ( "one ballad has to be on the record, and one mid-tempo song, and you HAVE to have a slow solo, too ), then that might be unusual, but I still think it deserves just as much respect as a guy who doesnt take lessons and just plays blues songs by ear.
He has taken A LOT of flak for his music, people posting really hateful stuff in his guestbook and by email. Because for some reason, a lot of people who dislike his people choose to say it in a VERY harsh way
I firmly believe that someone who has got that much technique sure learned the basics and stuff like different styles. And if he or she chooses not to use it all on the first record, I think thats fine.
If you listen to the first Racer X album... Paul G. played a lot of really fast solos. Thats hwat he tried to achieve, to take it to the limit. And I think if you listen to some of his recordings with Mr. Big, his solo albums etc., you´ll see that he has more under his belt.
Same goes for Thorsten K. I have jammed with him many times.He can shred your head off, and has recorded some tunes with some incredibly fast playing. Yet, he always impresses me with the ability to play many different styles convincingly, playing with feel and taste, playing very melodically. I yet have to find something he is not good at.
You have tofind a niche, and its hard to show all you can do,all you learned on a record if you wanna have it sounding like a complete album.
I am not Rusty´s spokes-person or anything. As I said, I dont listen to him 24/7. But I think I know what he is trying to achieve and where he is coming from.
If you don´t like it, well, that´s your opinion and I think everyone respects that. Rusty himself does, probably. But you shouldnt judge him just by that first record.
Anyway, just my opinion
Eric

[curiousgeorge]

I will also be juggling 2 chainsaws with the guitar while playing the caprice. :D

[oRg]

There is another guy who I keep forgetting to mention. Most of the people I've spoken to don't know who Luca Turilli is. For those who don't know he's the guitarist for an Italian epic metal band called Rhapsody. Some of the sweeping he does on the guitar solo for of "Dawn of Victory is pretty insane". He definitely has the Yngwie-ish feel to alot of his music, so much so that on his website he has a song called "Caprice in A minor". I haven't listened to it and I'm assuming its Paganini but then again you never know becuz there are so many Caprices out there in the classical world...lol. Here's the powertab to Dawn of Victory.

On the subject of Rusty Cooley. He's very talented and extreme on guitar. You can't be THAT fast and not know the basics. I don't think he has anything to prove to anyone but himself. I say if he likes the music he plays then thats all you really need. IMO I could care less what other people think of my music (then again I'm not a musician trying to survive on my music and album sales). Just as long as I like it, that's all that matters.

[Arpetude]

people who invest that much time in practicing the guitar, IMO, do have a deep love for the instrument, too. I dont think someone would be able to practice many hours every day for years just to impress his friends or whomever. There is a love for the instrument involved there.

Eric
i agree with eric on this one,

i personally play in that style (shred - but not like cooley) and i have a really deep passion for it. IN FACT i always tell people that, when they say stuff like 'wow, your great' i tell them that i have a great passion for this style of music and that is the only way you will practice about 90% of your spare time (which i do almost every day). is thru the love for that style.

for example, the solo to 'for the love of god' by vai. he expresses himself so well. i think the fast bit is meant to represent chaos (in the vid you see images of war etc.) and after that bit the sweep picking bit comes in and it sounds beutifull (meant to represent that there is still hope).

yngwie cries on some solos?

yes i sometime do cry when i play that.

thats how i feel when i play. but some people think i'm getting off playing fast. if thats the attitude they want to take that is fine by me.

when yngwie plays 'adagio' or 'suit opus no. 5' i am sure he cries cause i feel it to when i hear him (both studio or live) playing it, or when i learn the notes, eveything sounds amazing thats why i can't stop playing (or some people call it practicing) guitar everyday. just learning more notes of something that sounds soooo good(to my ears).

when i play in front of people i dont think

'wow, now i can play fast and make other guitar playes in the room feel like crap about there playing'

i think

' wow, i hope i represent yngwies music, i hope they are inspired and not discouraged and that they find the same passion for music as i have'

these are my thoughts

[wild_child]

There is another guy who I keep forgetting to mention. Most of the people I've spoken to don't know who Luca Turilli is. For those who don't know he's the guitarist for an Italian epic metal band called Rhapsody. Some of the sweeping he does on the guitar solo for of "Dawn of Victory" is pretty insane.

I totally agree, there are so many insane power metal guitarists that don't get too much recognition outside of the little world of us metalheads. Timo Tolkki of Stratovarius, Thomas Youngblood of Kamelot, Jani Liimatainen (one of my favorites) of Sonata Arctica, Jens Ludwig of Edguy or Roland Grapow of Helloween to name but a few. I think god-like chops have become so much of a status quo in this genre that its hardly worth pointing out anymore, perhaps even somewhat cliché.. but I for one, cannot get enough of it! :D

[nuclear81]

Fair enough, however, picking up a guitar for the sole purpose of seeing how fast you can play it, without any forethought of making music is just ridiculous. Hey, I'm going to pour glue all over my fretboard, put on some thick ski gloves, then play the fifth caprice in it's entirety while trying to sing Bohemian Rhapsody at the same time. That's extreme. People will love it.......
Wow you must be a master. Can you teach me that technique?;)

[se_12121]

I agree with Eric and others. I REALLY like Rusty's CD some is a little too extreme but other stuff really has great fire and edge to it because of its intensity which perectly compliments his distorted rhythm parts. I think he is an amazing player, just because he likes to play fast doesn;t mean he has no melody or that it is a bad thing. Some of his music is melodic even when fast, you don't have to play blues to play with feeling.IMO Buckethead is another amazing great guitarist who has proved himself in so many styles but his progressive and slightly wierd tapping and robotic solos are very original and what he enjoys playing. You shouldnt knock someone for that. As long as the person realises more to the guitar than speed (ie. some sense of rhythm/melody and musical appreciation) why not play what you desire?

As for curious George, I think he needs to be more tolerant and perhaps listen properly to appreciate his music for all its elements. Btw the thing bout playing while juggling chainsaw's was just a childish comment.

Sean

[curiousgeorge]

As for curious George, I think he needs to be more tolerant and perhaps listen properly to appreciate his music for all its elements. Btw the thing bout playing while juggling chainsaw's was just a childish comment.

Sean

That's a pretty hypocritical statement, considering you're telling me to be tolerant, while you bash my opinion. I do appreciate many types of music, however,and I will not be forced to listen to something I don't like, and why should I? Some of you guys are so defensive about your hero "shredders". IMO, Rusty Cooley is not a great guitarist, does not play with feeling, and wanks for wanking's sake. The faster a note is played, the less musical value it has, especially at those ridiculous speeds. If you don't like my opinion, I couldn't care less. I am entitled to it, as is everyone, so don't flame somebody because they have a subjective view that differs from your own. THAT is childish, Sean. Please lighten up.... :p

[wild_child]

The faster a note is played, the less musical value it has

That is the most ludicrous comment i've ever heard on these forums. So you're telling me that a semibreve for example, is more "musically valuable" than 16 semiquavers?

all notes are just as valuable as any other, theres a kind of music for everyone, people are going to play fast and people are going to play slow despite anyone's opinion.

[curiousgeorge]

That is the most ludicrous comment i've ever heard on these forums. So you're telling me that a semibreve for example, is more "musically valuable" than 16 semiquavers?

all notes are just as valuable as any other, theres a kind of music for everyone, people are going to play fast and people are going to play slow despite anyone's opinion.

You don't understand the context of my statement. It's not ludicrous, it's true. You have misunderstood the context of the word "value". This concept is not foreign to experts and guitar teachers, so I would advise you to seek one out to fully understand what I'm talking about here.

[wild_child]

I've had a guitar teacher for many years. If you mean value in terms of time as in "note value" then yes, a longer note has more value. But what I interpretated from your post is that longer more "expressive" notes have more musical worth than faster notes, hence why i chose two examples which have the same 'value' in terms of time.

A note is quick for a reason and a note is long for a reason, the term value to me translates to listener appreciation, and that is entirely subjective.

Please refrain from appearing patronising and explain if i still don't understand, i'd much rather learn something from this than have a pointless argument.

[curiousgeorge]

I'm not trying to fight. The point I'm trying to make is that the faster a note passes, the less chance your brain has to recognize/memorize it. Ever been able to hum a Rusty Cooley solo? Granted, Malmsteen, Becker etc... have very musical ideas and inspiring face-melting solos at speeds which you can actually decipher the phrasing of their playing. People like Cooley, though, play so fast that one cannot make out anything musical from his lines. The notes lose their musical value because of the speed at which they pass. Thus, Cooley's solos sound more like a percussive machine gun effect rather than a musically interesting line. The same could be said for some of Petrucci's solos, although I am a fan and own Rock Discipline and the DT Budokan DVD. Sometimes their solos just kind of disintegrate beyond musicality, IMO. If I appear patronizing I apologize.Cheers!:cool:

[wild_child]

Thats cool, I get where you are coming from now. It is true that generally the "hook" or most memorable phrase of a song is comprised of slower notes, because slower notes give a stronger sense of melody, IMO. However, humming a Cooley solo isn't possible because of the limits of the human voicebox, you would have to simplify the phrasing into longer notes. I do believe its possible to imagine it though.
As long as it is done with intent (and therefore with reason), I believe that something retains its musicality no matter how fast it is played, because that is what the artist intended. Besides, even if it is too fast for the brain to recognise the tone of the note (we are talking in the most rediculously extreme of cases here) a percussive sound is prouced, and percussion is a form of music. Whether it pleases the listener or not though, is another matter entirely.

[rmuscat]

curiousgeorge i am with you 100% about these extreme shredders including cooley.

I am also with you about you having the right for your own opinion with which in this case i'm on your side.

I also agree 100% about the fact people shouldn't take their guitar heroes so seriously. Check out my very old Guitar Gods (http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6027&highlight=guitar+gods) thread maybe you have something to add!

The only thing i can't backup is how you present your opinion simply because its a public posting and some guys/girls who worship these players might get offended or explode in rage! Call it close-mindedness but its there you can't fight it you have to live with it.

Now i go practice my chainsaw juggling with right handed tapping. Chainsaws are started today so i better concetrate i might loose a couple of limbs! :D


OH!! and back to the topic,
Shawn Lane of course (famous in the guitar world) and a many (or all!) of the guys on "The Alchemists" album!!

[phantom]

if this runs into a speed vs. emotion or fast vs. slow discussion we must look pretty stupid for the ones out there looking at ibreathe.
so... we should take care of that. :rolleyes: ;)

[rmuscat]

woops thread reaper is watching ...

uhm we're trying to hold it on track mr. reaper :D :eek: :rolleyes:

[curiousgeorge]

Underrated technique MONSTERS --- Joe Pass, Django, Lenny Breau, Bruce Cockburn, Chet Atkins, Mark Knopfler, Danny Gatton, Les Paul, Martha Stewart etc..... :D

[nuclear81]

Chet Atkins? Hoe can youy listen to The Marz Volta? I saw them open for the chili peppers last year and got booed off stage. I've never seen more chairs and bottles thrown at a band when they wouldn't leave the stage quick enough. Ok I agree that Martha Stewart is sick at shredding it up, but common Chet Atkins?

[nuclear81]

Chet Atkins? Hoe can youy listen to The Marz Volta? I saw them open for the chili peppers last year and got booed off stage. I've never seen more chairs and bottles thrown at a band when they wouldn't leave the stage quick enough. Ok I agree that Martha Stewart is sick at shredding it up, but common Chet Atkins?
Everyone I am sorry about that. A co-worker of mine is trying to be a pain in the butt (and doing a good job of it) Honestly The Mars Volta does stink, but since Chet Atkins is NOT in that group my jack *** co-workers comment means nothing. Chet Atkins is really emotional in his playing style and I definatly think he isn't given enough credit. On Another note, has anyone seen that Heineken(I think) Commercial where that guy uses his beer bottle as a slide? I thought that was really creative by the advertising team, and also sounded great.

Sorry again about that Chet Atkins comment.

[Gitboxer]

I'm new here, but I personally prefer a Dickie Betts, Trey Anastasio or Jerry Garcia solo over these elongated metal "proficiency" solos. I personally find these solos to be less thought out and more about being proficient at your instrument. I like being able to hum a solo; even when these guys kick it up a notch it doesn't get too ridiculous. I respect Vai, Petrucci, etc. for all the technical skill they have, it's just not for me.

[Oceano]

LOL Yeah sure, go try and play some of Chet Atkins music and then tell me it's not technical.

I find it funny how some people think speed is the only technical thing to play on a guitar, when in fact it is just one of many techniques.

Try and master chord/melody playing and see how difficult and technical it is.

Try and bend strings (in tune) like BB King (or any of those blues players) and see how technical it is.

Try and use the whammy bar to play melodies like Jeff Beck does and see how technical it is.

etc, etc.

The Mars Volta are amazing, my type of prog rock. Rather listen to them or Tool or O.S.I., than DT or any of their copycats.

[Otto]

[QUOTE=rmuscat]sooooooooo awesome-ly true!!! he's incredible!

as for the bashings ... lets avoid them guys plz plz **on his knees**

I'm sorry but I just can't resist (I love complaining). That Alexi Laiho kid really sucks man. He's playing the same stereotypical shred licks that existed twenty years ago. His tone is even more awful than his lead singer's voice. The only reason people like him is because they fall for his image.

And if you think I shouldn't be bashing him, what gives him the right to bash John Petrucci? He said that he sucks cuz he doesn't screw up? (I won't even respond to that one.) He says that JP plays too fast, but the fact is, is that JP can put those notes in a way more emotional context. And then he bashes JP for not having an 80's rock star image? I don't care who's banging groupies, the 80's are long gone man. Anybody who likes this guy is even more clued out than that stupid kid. Anyways, I just had to get that off my chest. I hope that JP (unlike me!) just lets his guitar keep doing the talking, because it really shows us what Laiho knows.

[Santuzzo]

Underrated :

Emily Remler and Tal Farlow

Both were just such amazing musicians.
Unfortunately Emily Remler died at a very young age (I think she was 32).

[Len H]

After reading the posts in this thread, it is clear that there are a lot of people who are very passionate about music, guitar music in particular. This is a good thing. What is not so good, is the "he/she plays fast unemotional solos, so they are just wanking" opinion that seems to surface whenever the words technique or speed, or the names Malmsteen, Angelo, Petrucci, etc. show up in a thread. Why is it that when guitarists play high velocity, technically challenging material, they get labeled "unemotional", while no one accuses a violinist playing Paganini or a pianist playing Chopin of wanking?

I personally do not care for most jazz music, it is simply not my thing. Sometimes it is like nails on a chalkboard to me.....MY OPINION. But I realize that there are some really talented jazz musicians, and I try to understand and appreciate the music they make. I just don't find it necessary to jump into a thread about music I don't like, and bash it with with comments like "it is unmelodic, atonal blah blah blah...." I remember a thread a while back about rap and hip hop, music that I truly detest, that I simply stayed out of; following the "If you can't say something nice, don't say it at all" principle. I don't mean to single anyone out or offend anybody. I am just asking that we channel our passion for music toward the positive side.

Len

[curiousgeorge]

Chet Atkins could rip, man. If you've ever seen footage of him, you know this. His nickname wasn't "Mr. Guitar" for nothing. A couple other guys who are underrated are that Jim dude from Reverend Horton Heat, and Jeff Healey (He's BLIND!!! and he rips it up with the guitar flat on his lap.)

[JailHouseRock]

Chet Atkins is awesome. I remember hearing one song from him the first time. I heard some rhythm, lead and simple drum. Actually, it was him alone play the guitar!

Another guitarist similar to him is Tommy Emmanuel from Australia. I guess Chet was Tommy's biggest influence. Check out Tommy's live video, there was one song about the aboriginal tribe at Australia. Man... he made the wave and wind sounds from his guitar! :eek:

Oh yea, another guitarist in my mind is Luca Turilli from Rhapsody. He also got his own band with his own name. I think, he's more to composing songs but his solos is awesome too. He likes to use some open strings tremolo picking and fast 5/6 strings arpeggios run. Perhaps, he wanted to avoid from some cliche' classical metal sounds.

Just my 2 cents, anyway. ;)

[Mateo150]

Since we get so much practice here, try this game out when going to your next party.

If your going to a house party, don't know most of the people, don't care to, or you just like being a wiseass...play this game

When you meet someone, segway the conversation to music, then you must convince the other person that their selection in music sucks, and that yours is much better. Here's the catch, your friends assign what kind of music/bands that you are arguing for. Whoever has the most success wins.

[Santuzzo]

Also underrated :

Adrian Legg

Anybody here know him ?
I saw him once in a concert, where he opened for Satriani.
He just sat there by himself with his guitar, solo......AMAZING !!!!!

Check out www.adrianlegg.com

[rmuscat]

Also underrated :

Adrian Legg

Anybody here know him ?
I saw him once in a concert, where he opened for Satriani.
He just sat there by himself with his guitar, solo......AMAZING !!!!!

Check out www.adrianlegg.com

heard an album from him once ... i call him the chicken picker from hell

[Oceano]

Adrian Legg is one of my favourites. Have all of his albums except his last one. I saw him in one of his clinics once and it was beautiful. When I listen to him I don't even think of it as a guitar performance, I just think of it as great music being made and it transcends the whole guitarist thing.

Another guy who is incredible is Lindsay Buckingham from Fleetwood Mac. Ever listen to his live solo version of Big Love? Want something more challenging than 200bpm 3 octave sweeping arpeggio lines, then learn how to play and sing (at the same time) this song ;)

[Bizarro]

Big Love *seems* easy, and each little part isn't too hard. Then put it all together, and sing, and you are right. Very challenging, and he puts on a heck of a performance too.

Elliot Easton from the Cars has really good chops. He didn't show off very much, but just try playing his stuff note for note! :) Tasty player too.

Another note: I saw a video of Chet Atkins playing in the 50's or early 60's. He was playing sweep arpeggios, and generally SHREDDING like mad. Most people under 40 probably don't know that, but he was a chops monster.

Some people have a strange idea that the chops today are better than the chops of xx years ago. That is simply not true. During the past 60 years every generation has had incredible players that could shred and play at lightspeed. Generally the rock/blues guitarists didn't focus on their technique until the 70s (Van Halen!), but other genres had serious players.

[DemonSorcerer]

OH!! and back to the topic,
Shawn Lane of course (famous in the guitar world) and a many (or all!) of the guys on "The Alchemists" album!!



That album is sweeeeeeeeet...many underrated/unknown technique monsters in it...there's Brett Garsed (my personal Fav), Adagio's Stephan Forte (This one has an eerie, fantastic track...my influence for 7 string guitar!!!) Mario Parga...he plays a tune called Valse Diabolique...and there's this awesome guitarist called Guthrie Govan...gotta check him...he's over the top...

David

[Weasel3000]

My fav guitar player is Frank Gambale and I feel hes underrated in some sort of way. Hes not a house hold name like many guitarrist.

I dunno...i just like his playing so much. Especially his first two albums. His later albums sounded way too much rock and then way too much something else. His first two albums sounded just right.

[primal65]

Jimmy Page should never be considered overrated. He may be easily beat technique-wise, but in my opinion has 10 times the composition talent of most every player listed on here. That's why he stands out. If a beautiful musical idea( riff, progression, etc) is there than even the ****tiest of guitarist will sound good. The song, in my mind, is the important thing. Who gives a crap about a guitarist with flawless-technique if he can't take you anywhere with the song. Jimmy had the ability to transcend you with his music. His songs are so damn good.

[Springbok]

There is far too much emphasise on technique. I should know, it bit me in the *** not so long ago. There was a gathering of really good guitarists, i was there and i was seen as the absolute technique king, there was a guy there that could barely move his hands properly but he came up with the most heartfelt stuff ive ever heard, he had the ability to move people with what he played. I could play at 10,000mph and wouldnt hide the fact that i was really really linear and dull (that hurt :( ) lol.

As for guitar monsters, I like Yngwie, Paul Gilbert and Steve Vai

Is there anyone out there who is actually faster than Yngwie? I have never actually heard anyone who could, just curious.

[satch_master]

yeah man, rusty cooley and francsero fraio are faster . and many players are up to his standards. hes fast, but not that bloody fast!

[Arpetude]

Francesco Fareri is the fastest guitarst on Earth.

his sweeps are crazy, you dont even recognise them as sweeps they go so fast.

its like ' did he just sweep 6-strings with 3 taps?'

'i don't know, i blinked and therefore missed it':p

[asdf]

Francesco Fareri is the fastest guitarst on Earth.


Yeah, he's fast, but on the same time, he's probably the most boring player on Earth.

Why? He sounds like a swarm of bees, has absolutely no tone, has absolutely no feel, there's absolutely no communication, everything he plays is the same, boring 350bpm mess. Lick after lick, tune after tune, CD after CD. This guy seems kind of autistic to me.

Anyway, if your only goal is to play at lightspeed to your tapes in front of a handful of shred freaks for the rest of your life as a hobby go ahead in the Fareri style. If you want to to reach a wider audience or make a living playing music you'd better concentrate on other aspects of your playing too.

[Arpetude]

i just play in the style that i like, i do not follow trends or what most people consider to be good music. i'm not in it for the money.


on a side note i really don't like fransceco at all. i have 14 movies of him and find him to have destoyed shred music. i feel he has that 'metronome' influence in his playing. but i love cooleys music, i think he applies it really well - makes me want to practice. when sweeping fast it should sound beutifull and melodic (jason becker etc.) it should not sound like francesco (swarm of bees) lol.

thats just my opinion.

[Bizarro]

I think Yngwie could play just as fast as anyone if he played the same "patterns" and other techniques that those guys use. Pure speculation on my part... Yngwie uses technique to enhance his musical abilities. Some people use technique to beat you over the head! :)

Springbok, that's a tough lesson to learn! I've been there myself.

[Mateo150]

Jimmy Page should never be considered overrated. He may be easily beat technique-wise, but in my opinion has 10 times the composition talent of most every player listed on here. That's why he stands out. If a beautiful musical idea( riff, progression, etc) is there than even the ****tiest of guitarist will sound good. The song, in my mind, is the important thing. Who gives a crap about a guitarist with flawless-technique if he can't take you anywhere with the song. Jimmy had the ability to transcend you with his music. His songs are so damn good.
Yeah, your right. He's one of the best guitarists in terms of song writing, (p.s. "one of the biggest thieves of american black music) just my take. But his song-writing talents are undeniable, and really, that requires more god-given talent and sense of art than being able to play really fast or whatever. Somethings can be had with lots of time and dedication, some things like songwriting, you can improve in, but its somewhat a pre-dispositioned gift.

[Springbok]

How long did it take you guys to get your picking really up to speed. Dont get me wrong, my picking is really good, but its a tad bit slower than Malmsteen and its that tad bit of difference which is becoming really hard to get. If i play straight out legato i'll kick his ***, lol. Just wondering, coz i was getting worried that my left hand is retarded. Also, i think Van Halen sucks! When i finally heard him I was like...is that it. Its not that difficult to get up to his level, the other dudes that for some reason you never hear about are always the real good ones, that goes for anything not just guitar or music. What do you guys think? Who do you guys reckon are the most overated guitarists?

[Mateo150]

How long did it take you guys to get your picking really up to speed. Dont get me wrong, my picking is really good, but its a tad bit slower than Malmsteen and its that tad bit of difference which is becoming really hard to get. If i play straight out legato i'll kick his ***, lol. Just wondering, coz i was getting worried that my left hand is retarded. Also, i think Van Halen sucks! When i finally heard him I was like...is that it. Its not that difficult to get up to his level, the other dudes that for some reason you never hear about are always the real good ones, that goes for anything not just guitar or music. What do you guys think? Who do you guys reckon are the most overated guitarists?Good to hear your so good... I can't play fast, fastest i can get, and still sounds sloppy is about triplets at 180bpm, or sextuplets at 90ish bpm. Van Halen, I don't really listen to, but I'm told it was ground breaking stuff when it first came out. I think its hard to "get on Eddie's level", but may I suck

Overrated: Dave Matthews, some of his rhythms and stretches I like a lot, but I think he's overrated. Saw him at a "dave and friends" tour, lots of other very very good musicians joined him on stage and he just became a spectator, couldn't follow, he doesn't do solos so thats one thing, but he couldn't find anything to comp with either. Makes me think he has his songs memorized, nothing else.

[Weasel3000]

I also gotta say Derryl Gabriel. He has a nice tone and has some fast yet catchy licks.

[flathead]

Also, i think Van Halen sucks! When i finally heard him I was like...is that it. Its not that difficult to get up to his level, the other dudes that for some reason you never hear about are always the real good ones, that goes for anything not just guitar or music. What do you guys think? Who do you guys reckon are the most overated guitarists?

You weren't alive when Van Halen first came out were you?

I'm not a Van Halen slappy, but you have to put him in the context of the era that he came out in. Listen to what the music/guitar playing was like when he first came out. Then listen to what music/guitar playing sounded like after he was around for a while. EVERYBODY copied him. EVERYBODY was playing 'Eruption'. EVERYBODY was tapping triplets. You couldn't walk into a guitar store without hearing somebody ripping off a Van Halen tapping lick. EVH was WITHOUT QUESTION one of the most influential guitarists ever. PERIOD. There is absolutely no debate about it. NONE. ZERO. An entire era of music and an entire generation of guitarists were heavily influenced by him. Go back and look at any guitar magazine issue of the 80s and see how often he gets mentioned. EVH was/and is great.

[Weasel3000]

You weren't alive when Van Halen first came out were you?

I'm not a Van Halen slappy, but you have to put him in the context of the era that he came out in. Listen to what the music/guitar playing was like when he first came out. Then listen to what music/guitar playing sounded like after he was around for a while. EVERYBODY copied him. EVERYBODY was playing 'Eruption'. EVERYBODY was tapping triplets. You couldn't walk into a guitar store without hearing somebody ripping off a Van Halen tapping lick. EVH was WITHOUT QUESTION one of the most influential guitarists ever. PERIOD. There is absolutely no debate about it. NONE. ZERO. An entire era of music and an entire generation of guitarists were heavily influenced by him. Go back and look at any guitar magazine issue of the 80s and see how often he gets mentioned. EVH was/and is great.
you hear it all over the place. were do you guys think steve vai was influenced to use the whammy?

Thanks to eddie, everyone taps.

[Arpetude]

i'm far too young to know any of this. but listen to this people.

maybe in decades time. they will be a whole bunch of new virtuosos and someone will say on a board


i think yngwie malmsteen sucks! When i finally heard him I was like...is that it. Its not that difficult to get up to his level.

imagine that...why not EVH was considered a legend at one point....now average......maybe in 2030 YJM = average?

thoughts?

[Starsailor]

Has anyone mentioned Bumblefoot (Ron Thal) or Mattias IA Eklundh (of Freak Kitchen) yet?

They have amazing skills and a sense of humour.. Sort of like Zappa for the modern day. Completely different way of playing fast, for instance, they use harmonics or in Ron's case a thimble ( to tap after the fretboard) to reach those ultra high notes. In any case, I'd never heard like them beforehand.

[satch_master]

yeah in like another 20, 30, 40 years guitarists will probably get faster and faster and faster, until they start realising the importance of musical value and melody, and memorable songs and solos and realise they just wasted countless hours on something stupid and pointless. yeah thats its it man, eddie is god.

[Mateo150]

i think its ridiculous to call Eddie Van H an average player. If thats average, man, most people who play are uber beginners. People say that about Hendrix and people like that too. Its more a taste thing, I think most people can't actually play that stuff with their degree of comfort and tone, and haven't really tried, but based on hearing it, they label it without playing it. Walking their walk is hard, in my opinion.

[Mcbane]

I'm suprised jeff beck has only been mentioned once, his technique is amazing especially that his playing is still evolving despite having been putting out albums for nearly 40 years now. Do yourself a favour and listen to nadia off you had it coming

Also Carl Verheyen hasn't been mentioned, this guy has ridiculously good technique thought he doesn't show it too much but is all round amazing player.

As well as that I have to say all the guitarists who write for the english guitar magazine guitar technique's are amazing especailly guthrie govan and martin taylor (who's solo cd's are really good as well).

[ChrisJ]

You really have to put things into perspective. Probably the two most important guitarists, the two that changed the way guitar and music in general evolved are Jimi Hendrix and Eddie Van Halen. As "Flathead" mentioned, if you where not around you wouldn't know it but both these guys at the time created the effect of an atomic bomb going off in the guitar world. If you wanted to teach a class on the history of modern guitar, you could safely break up modern guitar into the pre-hendrix era, the Hendrix era, which stretches to the Van Halen era. Guitar playing was completely different up to Hendrix and then just when you thought things where safe, Eddie came along and the whole thing started again. To say that Hendrix and Van Halen are average players by today's standards is forgeting that Eddie and Jimi are the ones who set the standards. It is like saying Bach is average compared to Wagner. Without Bach, there would be no Wagner. Even so, in all my years in the music buiness, I have never heard anybody do a convincing job of playing like either Jimi Hendrix or Eddie Van Halen.

With any other guitarist you can mostly find other guitarists who where doing similar things years before. Although I think IJM is a great guitarist, you can still go back and find Uli Roth.

Techniqe is important but the 80s turned guitar playing into a sporting event which has now left the audience cold. Things have turned around and songs have become the most important element in music. There are too many lightning fast guitarists out there and not enough good song writers. If you think about it, the ones that continue year after year to sell CDs are the guitarists with the songs more so that the chops, Jeff Beck would be a good example.

Anyway, I think the point I'm trying to make is simple: Being a great guitarist isn't really about chops, it's about treading where nobody has gone before and it's about telling stories with your music.
-CJ

[Starsailor]

I'm suprised jeff beck has only been mentioned once, his technique is amazing especially that his playing is still evolving despite having been putting out albums for nearly 40 years now. Do yourself a favour and listen to nadia off you had it coming.
Nadia really is a beautiful song. Jeff Beck whammy bar use on that song is awe inspiring :eek:

[satch_master]

put it this way, look at all those 80's shredders like vinnie moore, micheal angelo(lol), and ritchie kotzen to name just a few of the millions. they chop page's and hendrix's *** technique wise, but in all reality look at who is a legend and who will go down in history and who is just a forgotten shredder from the 80's which had an obsession from playing too fast and could never write a decent song together. its funny only guitarists are the ones who like these fancy shredders. the other 99% of the population would probably say something alikes of their guitarist as eric clapton, hendrix or page. and the thing all these greats had in common as well as their guitar skills was they could write good songs(something i still dont think ill ever have the ability to do). Just look at Eric Clapton , he has wrote some of the best songs.

[Len H]

I am not for one minute going to downplay the impact Eddie Van Halen had on guitar playing. He had a unique style, and a band that became very popular giving Eddie tons of exposure. However, at the time of the first Van Halen album (1978), there were three other guitarists playing above EVH's level playing similar music. I have mentioned two already in a previous post, Ritchie Blackmore and Uli Jon Roth. The third would be Michael Schenker. In 1978, Blackmore was in Rainbow, who released "Long Live Rock'n' Roll" which contained "Gates of Babylon", Roth had just recorded the masterful "Sails of Charon", and Schenker was recording the live "Strangers in the Night" album with UFO, take a listen to "Rock Bottom". I do think another reason that Eddie became so popular and imitated was that tapping sounded cool and people seemed to be able to learn the technique fairly quickly.

I would like to add to the list of unknown/underrated technique monsters by mentioning Joe Stump, who has several instrumental albums, along with four releases with the band Reign of Terror. He is probably an aquired taste for non-guitarists, but there is no denying his abilities. He does have a sense of humor too, titling his albums "Guitar Dominance", "Night of the Living Shred", Supersonic Shred Machine", "Speed Metal Messiah" etc. Damir Uzunovic is in the German metal band "The Armada", a band I imagine is all but unknown here in the states, but he is another high caliber neo-classical guitarist.

[brandonstreet]

has anyone heard of joe stump? he is an amazing guitarist and i think he teaches up at burkley. in my opinion, he is up there with yngwie and such in skill level. also,i think justin tolan, a local guitarist, will be a revolutionary guitarist. he is 17 and is a guitar prodigy who is making his first album before he graduates. check him out... justintolan.com

[Len H]

I almost forgot about James Byrd, he has the chops of a virtuoso, but he plays so melodically you sometimes don't even notice his speed.

[oRg]

I just thought of another very underrated technique monster. Fredrik Thordendal from Meshuggah. When listening to him play live his tapping is very clear and he has a remarkable sense for melody and tension and this can be well seen when he's improvising solos and leads. I also am very fond of his odd-metered rhythms as well which prove to be very fresh especially in a time when all your hear is nothing but 4/4, 5/4, 7/8, 9/8, etc etc. Let's put it this way, he plays a 21/16 over a 4/4 snare/hi-hat beat. Most of his stuff revolves around the diminished scale but thats one thing I like about his style. He can get so many motifs from just the same damn scale and they all sound good. His lead playing, Tomas Haakes incredible and mechanical like drumming, and Marten Hagstrom's rhythm are pretty much the only real reason I listen to Meshuggah. I could just listen to them without any vocalist at all...lol.

[Arpetude]

yeah,


i was thinking about that a few days ago 'why is there no advanced rythm at ibreath?'

you know like polyrythms and the such. when listening to meshuggah its so ****ed up that its near impossible to follow the drummer. know REALLY, try it yourself, i follow Mike Portnoy Easy and **** myslef when meshuggah is blasting. thats how insane they are.:eek:

[oRg]

Well following their drumming can be a bit difficult at first but once you learn a couple Meshuggah songs there's certain patterns you see in the songs that you can easily follow. I know becuz I learned "Bouncing in a Bottomless Pit" by Fredrik Thordendal and it took me sometime time to get those timings down especially in the very begining.

Also, you may benefit from knowing that Meshuggah doesn't use polyrhythms that often. Mainly they only use polyrhythms in faster tapping solos. Otherwise it's called polymeters which they use all the time. That is playing more than one different meter simultaneously. Which fits into where Fredrik plays a 21/16 over a 4/4 hi-hat/snare beat. I upload a tab that I have of one of their songs (which I believe is one of their easier songs) which is called Humilative as well as some other tabs to further prove my point onf Fredrik being another underrrated technique monster.

[Wicked_Dreams]

Personally, the smoothest and best legato work I've heard is from the late Chris Oliva (Savatage).

Which makes me ask, why do some people have "crappy" legato? I mean take Petrucci, a guitarist I adore, when he starts those legato runs, it just sounds horrible, and you can tell that he's playing legato and doing it badly, what is he doing that's different?

[Arpetude]

Wicked_Dreams



obviuosly you do not own JP rock discipline. because i asure you that i can play everything BUT the legato off that shred instructional!. the legato is ridiculously hard . it's unbelievable, do not slag JP. he is simply put.....a god. i was talking to someone who has been teaching for a decade and even he said 'John petrucrucci legato section is really hard'.

cheers for the tabs org.

[Wicked_Dreams]

I didn't mean technique wise, just close your eyes and listen, it just sounds wrong and unpleasant for some reason, both in studio recordings and live sessions (From DVD's)

[Arpetude]

cool Wicked_Dreams

JP is god...whatever he touches turns to musical gold.

this is not an IMO its a FACT:p .

[nuclear81]

JP might be a god, but his guitar is still stuck in the 80's:p I watched his video recently and his guitars color looks like it came right out of the opening credits to the fresh prince.

[EricV]

Nuclear, that was his Ibanez JPM with the "Picasso finish". Ever since about 2000, he uses Ernie Ball / Music Man guitars with very nice finishes.
And his solo-album ( released last week ) rocks big time IMO =)
Eric

NP: Passion Of The Christ OST

[diablosrising]

I understand where some of you are coming from about cooley, but do any of you own his solo album? Or have any one of you heard any Outworld(the prog/metal band he's in) demos? He can play just about anything.

He's just really into pushing where he can go physically w/ his instrument. That's his thing. Extreme guitar playing.

I had a question about one of his instructional DVD's, so he called me long distance to help me out. We chatted for about a half hour. He's actually a really down-to-earth, nice dude. He was probably one of the most personable people I've talked to in general.

So, I know this isn't about who the nicest guitarist is, but there was a post about the "guitar-god" attitude, and Rusty totally did not come off that way. You can't deny his technical ability. And he has the theory to back it up. So please, no more personal attacks. If he wants to play a million miles an hour, let him.

Playing guitar is about having fun. If he has fun burnin up the strings, I say go for it.


its cool.:)

i wasn't basing other players.

or was i?, who?, :confused:

other people are bashing cooley!.:mad:

can i retaliate!:D

what is cooley able to do. more like.......what is cooley not able to do.lol

[Arpetude]

generally i think every guitar player should have a really good attitude. and it should get better as one becomes more comfotable with the instrument. i have more respect for someone that does his own thing (even if its basic punk!) and has a good attitude rather than someone who is rediculously technical but has a poor (i am greater than you) attitude.

but don't you feel fast players are automtically assumed to be 'up themselves'. it seems that way to me.:(

as far as his solo?, no but eric does i think. all i own is his videos off his websites + his instructional dvd (SGM) + a bunch of mp3s i downloaded off the net.

[diablosrising]

generally i think every guitar player should have a really good attitude. and it should get better as one becomes more comfotable with the instrument. i have more respect for someone that does his own thing (even if its basic punk!) and has a good attitude rather than someone who is rediculously technical but has a poor (i am greater than you) attitude.

but don't you feel fast players are automtically assumed to be 'up themselves'. it seems that way to me.:(

as far as his solo?, no but eric does i think. all i own is his videos off his websites + his instructional dvd (SGM) + a bunch of mp3s i downloaded off the net. I do agree people automatically assume they're jack a**es. I mean, heck, I did.
You should check out www.outworldband.com (http://www.outworldband.com). The demos are more impressive on there, imo, than him just shredding. He's actually shredding w/in the context of a song. Yeah, attitude definately impresses me more than aptitude. Especially if they're a monster player. If you're modest about your playing, people will get along w/ you that much more (i.e. want to jam w/ you, go to your shows, etc.). This is getting way too o/t though. Guthrie Govan, another, maybe not underrated guitarist, but definately unknown. He's a freakin monster.

[Arpetude]

just checked out the website.


i like that low chunk 'nu-metal' groove, but with the high intense vocals. + rusty guitaring is not bad either;) .

i hope to become an amazing guitar player one day (like cooley), and i want to have a really good attitude so i can set an example to players who may be 'up-themselves'.

[MarkPT]

Same old, same old... It's the same thing in Portugal and in my opinion it's kinda stupid going "this guy is the best and that guy sucks because he can't do this and that, bla bla bla...". Think of it as having fun, don't think of it as a competition, it's just for fun ok? I like Vai, Yngwie, Satch, Houshoulder, Vinnie Moore and all those guys but I also like Reinhardt, Joe Pass, Mike Stern, Benson, etc.. Hendrix is God! Can't argue about personal tastes can we? Try to be polivalent and open minded, there's only ONE music and it's all about having a lot of fun. ;)

[diablosrising]

Same old, same old... It's the same thing in Portugal and in my opinion it's kinda stupid going "this guy is the best and that guy sucks because he can't do this and that, bla bla bla...". Think of it as having fun, don't think of it as a competition, it's just for fun ok? I like Vai, Yngwie, Satch, Houshoulder, Vinnie Moore and all those guys but I also like Reinhardt, Joe Pass, Mike Stern, Benson, etc.. Hendrix is God! Can't argue about personal tastes can we? Try to be polivalent and open minded, there's only ONE music and it's all about having a lot of fun. ;)
I agree 100%. Everything gets personal when people talk about music, because music is a deep thing. People need to learn to respect others' opinions. Guitarists all do their own things. You can pit one against the other in some kind of "duel." This thread is here simply to let each other know about somewhat undiscovered/underrated players; not bash guitarists because we don't like their style.

[Arpetude]

I also agree. i feel that any musician should work on anything he wants and follow what he wants to do.


for example, a guitar player may ONLY want to play fast. fast arpeggios and fast runs NON-STOP in his music. but if that is his passion then let him do it and celebrate his diversity.:)

lets take another guitar player. perhaps there is another odd-ball guitarist that only wants to play music origianlly composed on the flute or something weird like that. well, if he wants to dedicate his time to that . i say let him do it. and celebrate his diversity.:)

we should all really celebrate our uniqueness. if we all worked together, meeting other guitarists would be fun. not intimidating ('oh, no i heard that guy can play like malmsteen - i can barely sweep etc.'). i hear that alot.

[Sir Speedy]

My picks for Unkown Masters of the Riff ;

Rowan Robertson (Dio 1990 - "Lock up the Wolves" )
Tracy G. (- Dio 1995 "Strange Highways ")
David T Chastain (Leviathan Records)

Tal Farlow (Jazz Swing Master )

[mattfnk]

Big Love *seems* easy, and each little part isn't too hard. Then put it all together, and sing, and you are right. Very challenging, and he puts on a heck of a performance too.

Elliot Easton from the Cars has really good chops. He didn't show off very much, but just try playing his stuff note for note! :) Tasty player too.

Another note: I saw a video of Chet Atkins playing in the 50's or early 60's. He was playing sweep arpeggios, and generally SHREDDING like mad. Most people under 40 probably don't know that, but he was a chops monster.

Some people have a strange idea that the chops today are better than the chops of xx years ago. That is simply not true. During the past 60 years every generation has had incredible players that could shred and play at lightspeed. Generally the rock/blues guitarists didn't focus on their technique until the 70s (Van Halen!), but other genres had serious players.
that is a great point. The technique that existed in other genres particularly jazz, was light years ahead of where the blues rock guys were. When you think of clapton in the early sixties, being called slowhand because of how fast he played, while there were jazz players at the same time who smoked him technically, farlow, garland, etc etc.

mk

[Len H]

There were some hot chops on some of the 50s rock and roll records too. I remember "Rock Around the Clock" by Bill Haley and the Comets had some pretty quick alternate picked runs. I think many of these early rock artists hired top studio and session guitarists and other musicians who had been playing in Nashville etc. and were very accomplished players.

I totally forgot about (shame on me) another guitar master: Gary Moore. He was really a monster in the 80s; fast, melodic, great tone, the whole package.

[wiechfreak]

I know a ton of amazing guitar players but not necessarily technique monsters. I think im one of the few people on this forum that doesnt like shred. Dunno I just never could get into it.

[DemonSorcerer]

By the way, guys...Did i forget to mention Angra's Kiko Loureiro?? he can surely rip n' tear on every solo...and he's soooo melodic and aggressive...There's also Adagio's Stephan Forte...another 7 string demon...Check out Adagio's Underworld for some impressive solos and parts...

David

[mac220]

there;s a couple of underated guys that i don't think have been mentioned

George Benson - Listen to his early recordings playing Jazz his techinque is amazing
Tuck Andres - his solo playing is again something else
Martyn Taylor -

Not to Mention Alan Holdsworth, who has one of the most amazing techniques of any player i've heard, sounds like John contrane on the guitar, he's a fusion player

[curiousgeorge]

I know a ton of amazing guitar players but not necessarily technique monsters. I think im one of the few people on this forum that doesnt like shred. Dunno I just never could get into it.

Just because they are "technique monsters", or guitarists that have incredible technical ability, does not mean that they are "shredders" necessarily. I hate that term "shred". There are technical masters that span every single genre of music you can think of. BTW, do "shredders" eat Shreddies for breakfast?