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View Full Version : Arpeggio Question, Jazz



snufeldin
02-26-2005, 04:45 PM
Here's a question for the jazz folk:

I've memorized the Maj7, Min7, Dom7, and Min7b5 Arpeggios, gone through different patterns through them, and practiced approach patterns (1 and 2 notes above and below, 1 above and 1 below, 1 below and 1 above) for each chord tone.

I want to know what I should be practicing to take myself to the next level. I've been trying to practice running through jazz songs playing the arpeggios and approach patterns, but it always sounds pretty lame. What do you guys recommend?

Malcolm
02-26-2005, 06:22 PM
My jazz also sounds pretty lame. I had a thought the other day -- arpeggioes and pentatonics work and flow into each other -- I use patterns for both and one day mixed them -- 3 to 4 notes of pentatonic and then went on to the next string using the arpeggio. It was one of those WoW, I've got to explore this some more. I'm still lame, but have one more tool in my gig bag.

satch_master
02-26-2005, 09:33 PM
yeah, soloing in jazz is not easy at all. it takes many years to master.

Dommy
02-26-2005, 11:10 PM
The stuff you just practiced is the basis for jazz, but its not jazz itself. When you listen to a lot of good improvisors, you never hear them play just approach notes or just chord tones or things like that, they make melodies.

I made the mistake myself thinking that if I just practice scales and little licks and stuff like that the sound I wanted was just going to flow from my fingertips, boy was I wrong... You really have to work to develop a sound, you have to play the stuff you want to play. You can't play one thing and expect something completely different to come out.

I recommend finding a standard that isn't too hard to remember and isn't too difficult and find a few solos that you like that are played over these changes.

Transcribe it. (GET THE PROGRAM TRANSCRIBE FROM SEVENTH STRING SOFTWARE, MONEY WELL INVESTED) Either to paper or in your head onto your instrument, it doesn't matter, just so long as you learn it. From doing this you start interalizing little pieces of the jazz vocabulary, and your ear improves.

When you learn the solo, make sure you play each line with the chord underneath it in mind, do not just learn the notes. Learn the rhythms, be able to sing the solo, be able to play it by yourself without accompanyment, analyze the tones being played against the chord, make it make sense, and if it doesn't make sense and it sounds good...well, at least you know that it does sound good. Try isolating lines from the solo and try playing them over their respective chords in BIAB, try varying rhythms, articulations, develop the idea, move it around through various keys in different positions and patterns.

This takes a lot of work.

http://www.lucaspickford.com/transguitar.htm Check out some of the solos here, check out different instruments...make sure you get a recording, DO NOT TRY TO LEARN A SOLO WITHOUT HEARING IT FIRST.

Los Boleros
02-27-2005, 01:31 AM
Here's a question for the jazz folk:

I've memorized the Maj7, Min7, Dom7, and Min7b5 Arpeggios, gone through different patterns through them, and practiced approach patterns (1 and 2 notes above and below, 1 above and 1 below, 1 below and 1 above) for each chord tone.

I want to know what I should be practicing to take myself to the next level. I've been trying to practice running through jazz songs playing the arpeggios and approach patterns, but it always sounds pretty lame. What do you guys recommend?Heres a nice Arpegio practice.

In the key of A minor:

Am7 arp forward, Bm7b5 backward, CM7 forward, Dm7 backward, Em7 forward, FM7 backward, G7 forward, Am7 backward.

Try it! It's actually usable.

I'ld tab it out for you but I gotta run right now. Got a gig in S.F. Maybe someone else can do it or I'll be on tommorow with a hang-over, I can do it then.

Poparad
02-27-2005, 03:32 AM
Try taking a ii - V - I progression and arpeggiate the chords, but try connecting each arpeggio.

For example, in the key of C, ii V I would be Dm7 | G7 | Cmaj7.

Try to shape your arpeggio so that you end up on each of the chord tones on the last eighth note of the Dm7 chord. Then, try to resolve that chord tone to the nearest chord tone of the G7 chord. Do this again for the G7 to Cmaj7 resolution.

For example, if you end up on the note C (the 7th of Dm7) on the last eighth note of Dm7, resolve it to B (the third of G7) on the downbeat of the G7 chord. If you end up on A on the last note of Dm7, resolve it either to G or B on the down beat of G7.

If you're on an F on the last eighth note of G7, resolve it to an E on the downbeat of Cmaj7. If you're on a B on the last note of G7, try resolving it to C on the downbeat of Cmaj7.


At first, just practice playing an arpeggio on Dm7 and coming to a stop on the G7 chord so you can focus on the different resolutions. Repeat this again for the G7 to Cmaj7 resolution. This is the first step in being able to "follow the changes."

Then, try and play a line that resolves at those points, but keeps on going rhythmically when the chords change. This is step two in being able to follow the changes.

Lastly, mix up scales and arpeggios over the chords, as well as applying rhythms other than long lines of eighth notes. Long lines of eighth notes are good, and an important part of the jazz language, but they're not the only rhythm you can use. So don't ignore long lines, but don't use them exlusively either.


Lastly, when you feel you're really getting the hang of this resolution thing, try moving the point where you resolve to the new chord. Instead of the downbeat of the new chord, try moving it back to the and of 4, or right on 4. Try moving it ahead to the and of 1 or right on 1, or even earlier or later than that. This is a tool that many jazz greats used quite frequently.

Dommy
02-27-2005, 05:14 AM
Heres a site I found a while ago, has a few examples of the antecedent-consequent system, very very logical...

http://www.mapageweb.umontreal.ca/destefar/e_pedag2.htm

check some of the examples at the bottom. It divides everything into 4 note motifs...

Maarten
02-27-2005, 02:19 PM
I've been trying to practice running through jazz songs playing the arpeggios and approach patterns, but it always sounds pretty lame. What do you guys recommend?

It's all in the rhythms. It's the single most important element of jazz (and almost any type of music). Listen to Charlie Christian. His lines are very (simple) arpeggio based, but his unbelievable time feel and phrasing makes it into something brilliant. So try to steal some rhythms from great players and work on your timefeel (make sure it's relaxed, on top or a bit behind the beat but not ahead of it) is my advice.

Los Boleros
02-27-2005, 03:34 PM
It's nice to have you posting here Poparad! Nice post.

sixstrings121
02-27-2005, 03:56 PM
Can someone explain this further? I don't see how you do this. Would someone be able to post a powertab of an example and explain the theory behind it? It would really help a lot.

Dommy
02-27-2005, 08:13 PM
If you have good phrasing and time, you can make anything sound good. Anything.

Los Boleros
02-27-2005, 09:23 PM
Can someone explain this further? I don't see how you do this. Would someone be able to post a powertab of an example and explain the theory behind it? It would really help a lot.can you please elaborate the exact question?

Los Boleros
02-27-2005, 09:31 PM
In the key of A minor:

Am7 arp forward, Bm7b5 backward, CM7 forward, Dm7 backward, Em7 forward, FM7 backward, G7 forward, Am7 backward.
Ok here is a small exaple of that:

|----------------5---------------------7--8--5---------------7---10---------
|---------5--8------6-----------5--8------------6-----5--8-----------------
|------5---------------7--4--5---------------------7------------------------
|---7-----------------------------------------------------------------------
|---------------------------------------------------------------------------
|---------------------------------------------------------------------------Spiraling Arpegios.:cool:

sixstrings121
02-27-2005, 09:33 PM
Okay what I meant by my question is how do you construct those arpeggios...how did you know to go from Am7 to Bm7b5 to CM7 to Dm7 and so on.

Los Boleros
02-27-2005, 09:38 PM
Okay what I meant by my question is how do you construct those arpeggios...how did you know to go from Am7 to Bm7b5 to CM7 to Dm7 and so on.The example I gave you is a riff that I use in my playing. It's just going up from one
arp to the next , only I am changing directions each time. I wouldn't really put any more theory behind it that that because you can experiment with it and use in just about anyware. You don't have to start on the Am7 either. You can use it climing up to another chord or just add it for color. I't my gift to you. try it and I practice it. I am sure you will like using it.:D

Mateo150
02-27-2005, 09:57 PM
I took a quick look and it seems Los follows the minor cadence, with a bit of a spin with the Bm7b5. May I ask why you chose the Bm7b5 instead of the regular B7.

sixstrings121
02-27-2005, 10:09 PM
Lol Los, well I thank you very much for your gift...if I get famous off it I'll be sure to give you credit :D

cardello
02-27-2005, 10:36 PM
los boleros is playing arpeggios of chords diatonic to Cmajor (just starting on the vi chord, Am)

diatonic chords in C major:

CM7 Dm7 Em7 FM7 G7 Am7 Bm7b5

Los Boleros
02-27-2005, 11:00 PM
los boleros is playing arpeggios of chords diatonic to Cmajor (just starting on the vi chord, Am)

diatonic chords in C major:

CM7 Dm7 Em7 FM7 G7 Am7 Bm7b5That's all it is.

Mateo150
02-27-2005, 11:34 PM
los boleros is playing arpeggios of chords diatonic to Cmajor (just starting on the vi chord, Am)

diatonic chords in C major:

CM7 Dm7 Em7 FM7 G7 Am7 Bm7b5
Ahh, Ok, glanced at it quickly.

Sir Speedy
02-28-2005, 05:59 AM
I'd like to comment on the Bmin7b5 Arpeggio , and how it relates to a I7 IV7 V7 Blues Progression.

If you have Blues in G for example ,the I dominant 7 is G7 the Bmin7-5 Arpeggio , sounds great over it .
in your blues progression you go to the IV7 , in G Blues that would be C7 . You can use the Min7-5 also.

Formula:
From C7 , go [up maj 3ed] to E and build your E min7-5 arp .

on D7(V7) go [up maj 3ed] make the F#min 7-5.

you can find some good options with that Arp over Dominant 7th chords , especially while experimenting in a simple blues context.You could really kick Chuck Berry's a$s , with that Arpeggio:cool:
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sixstrings121
02-28-2005, 02:47 PM
Cool stuff speedy. If you were playing a G7 the notes would be G B D F....the Bm7b5 chord is B D F A. the B D F (Bdim chord) are common in both. So if you added them together It would be G B D F A, which would make the B D F A a 9th arpeggio (without the root).

snufeldin
02-28-2005, 05:04 PM
This relates to what sir speedy was talking about. I forget what it's called... but you can replace the I iii and vi for each other and the ii IV V and viio...

So in the key of C, the Em7, Am7, and Cmaj7 arpeggios fit nicely over each other; and the Dm7, Fmaj7, G7, and Bm7b5 work well over each other.

I have trouble using these ideas in live situations and have them flow well.

Los Boleros
03-01-2005, 12:39 AM
Here's another one. This one is trickier but not hard. It also alternates between arpegio forward and arpegio backward only the pattern does not just go up the scale diatonicaly. It goes up one, Down two, up one, down two, etc.

|----------7--5--------------------5---------------------------------------
|----5--8--------6--------------6-----8--5--------------5--8--6-----------
|-5-----------------7--5--4--7--------------5--4-----5-----------7--4-----
|--------------------------------------------------7--------------------5--
|--------------------------------------------------------------------------
|--------------------------------------------------------------------------

This one goes

|C-Dm-Bm7b5-C-Am-Bm7b5|

snufeldin
03-01-2005, 12:54 AM
I've started transcribing Bill Evan's solo on Autumn Leaves. What a pain... I only have the first half figured out, but he seems to always come back to the IIImaj7 arpeggio (if you consider it a minor key). Has anyone else heard his version?

cardello
03-01-2005, 02:22 AM
look at the IIImaj7 as being the Imaj7, and then the 'minor key' you are in is actually the relative minor of that major chord. just to keep things in perspective

Los Boleros
03-01-2005, 01:31 PM
look at the IIImaj7 as being the Imaj7, and then the 'minor key' you are in is actually the relative minor of that major chord. just to keep things in perspectivesomething about that statement does not make sense. Do you mean the third chord of a major key? that whould be the iiim7 (Phrygian) not IIIM7. If you are talking about the third chord of a minor key, That would be IIIM7 and the relative major. (Ionian.)

cardello
03-01-2005, 01:36 PM
something about that statement does not make sense. Do you mean the third chord of a major key? that whould be the iiim7 (Phrygian) not IIIM7. If you are talking about the third chord of a minor key, That would be IIIM7 and the relative major. (Ionian.)

nah, all I'm saying is if you are playing a piece that is in A minor, its really kind of also in C major. so if you are thinking of A minor as 'home base' then C major is the IIImaj7... but I'm saying for a lot of us, its easier to think of progressions in terms of C major (in this case) being the I chord, and A minor being the vi.

sixstrings121
03-01-2005, 02:03 PM
Question...Whenever you have a III chord or a VI or a VII does that always mean your working with the minor key? Or could that also mean (say were in C) E major, A major, B major? Or does it always mean (saying were in the minor key Am) C major, F major, G major?

cardello
03-01-2005, 02:11 PM
i never direct people somewhere else for this information, because it is SO freaking important, but Guni has written some really nice articles covering the topic... in SHORT:

you need to know how chords are derived from the major scale. The C major scale goes C D E F G A B C, so to find out what chords (and more importantly, what KINDS of chords) come from the scale, we harmonize the C major scale - we do this by taking every other note of the scale and creating a chord from those notes. Here goes....

Doing this starting on C gives us C, E and G - this is a C major triad.
starting on D we get D, F and A - a D minor triad.

If we do this for the whole scale, we end up with these types of chords:

Imaj7, iim7, iiim7, IVmaj7, V7, vim7, viio7

so in the key of C, we have C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bmb5 <--chords not including sevenths.

um... so i think your question is say we are playing an Am chord. Now, this could be functioning as the vi in the key of C, the ii in the key of G, or the iii in the key of F.

schematics
03-01-2005, 08:02 PM
Here's a question for the jazz folk:

I've memorized the Maj7, Min7, Dom7, and Min7b5 Arpeggios, gone through different patterns through them, and practiced approach patterns (1 and 2 notes above and below, 1 above and 1 below, 1 below and 1 above) for each chord tone.

I want to know what I should be practicing to take myself to the next level. I've been trying to practice running through jazz songs playing the arpeggios and approach patterns, but it always sounds pretty lame. What do you guys recommend? Pretty much agree with Dommy and Maarten....using melodies, transcriptions and creating your own versions, rhythmical variations etc. is a good place to start.
If you have some favourite jazz players (not only guitar), try to transcribe, analyze and finally understand the ideas that grab you the most. UNDERSTANDING is important because it goes beyond just copying and being able to play some licks, much more it will allow you to use it in a different context as well.
You don't necessarily need to transcribe complete solos, take the parts that really make you go like - "****, what was that...."
Jazz is a mix of all kinds of stuff. Playing only arps up and down the neck can be just as boring as shredding some endless 3 NPS patterns for 15 minutes.

Los Boleros
03-02-2005, 12:53 AM
I agree also that melodies and rhythm are the bottom line and you can get very good just working out lines and increasing your arsenal,
but the
Memorisation and Engraving of Arpegios
by what ever means available is one of the best ways to ultimately learn how to follow changes. After all, the progressions we solo over are made up of arpegios and knowing which notes resolve helps you to organise tension from resolution notes. Knowing the arpegio notes is helpfull even when you don't want to be melodic. (Just stay away from those notes) In order to learn arpegios, your gonna have to practice them and practice them. The Riffs I showed you are kool riffs to use (Sparingly) but most of all, they are a nice way to burn into memory, the finger patterns that make up the arpegios.

No one technique is the best because the ultimate answer is in the corralation of all musical aspects. Apegios, melody, harmony, Modes, it's all related. I think it's important to practice all the aspects but perhaps in small doses. Like two subjects per week. Mix it up.

snufeldin
03-02-2005, 01:29 AM
Well like I said, I'm working on Bill Evan's (famous jazz pianist) Autumn Leaves solo... and my arpeggio practice has really helped me because 1) my fingers have already had to do lots of the patterns and 2) I understand what he's doing... although I'm still trying to relate what notes he uses and their relation to the chord that's being played.

Lots of work, but fortunately it's fun and exciting.

Sir Speedy
03-02-2005, 05:01 AM
Well like I said, I'm working on Bill Evan's (famous jazz pianist) Autumn Leaves solo... and my arpeggio practice has really helped me because 1) my fingers have already had to do lots of the patterns and 2) I understand what he's doing... although I'm still trying to relate what notes he uses and their relation to the chord that's being played.

Lots of work, but fortunately it's fun and exciting.
i'm familiar with "Autumn Leaves " a little bit , Snufeldin.

what i did with it was , extend the chords to a full mesure each , and basically play E minor over it , except where it goes to F#.

I guss your playing it in E minor with it's relative G Major .Mabey you useing a different key , i dont know , but i learned a trick from gambale about pentatonic blues.

In minor play the ii iii and vi pentatonic/blues in one area of the fret board , where you can make the patterns overlap each other .

in E minor that would be vi = E minor pent ii = A min Pent iii = B minor pentatonic with it's b5 blue note . Gambale often makes arpeggios out of pentatonics .
It's just a suggestion ., you may find usefull , but anyway , i'd be interested in seeing some TAB from your Arpeggio Transcribing efforts.

If i remember correctly, Autumn Leaves has a part that goes E7-- EbDim7-- D7-- Db Dim7--C Maj7 F#min7-5 --B7-9---E min7 ----

it's kind of a cool thing to play one octave - 4 note Arpeggios , following E7 Eb dim7 D7 Db Dim7 , then just play E min Pent/Blues over C Maj7 , an E min Arpeggio sounds good over C maj 7 , you may knowtice. Switch to F# Min Pent for F# and B then back to E Min for the rest

That's the way i do it , but you know , i try to simplify everything , when it comes to soloing over key changes ..

I'd really be interested in seeing your work :cool:
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SyKrash
03-14-2005, 07:12 AM
try playing the 3rd and 7th of every chord you hit. start with the third, then the 7th, then the 3rd etc.

Then use embellishments, like the 3rd, a half-step below the 7th, then the 7th etc.