My song-writing article

[EricV]

Hey guys

Instead of sending out a lot of "thanks for the feedback" emails, I just wanted to say thanks for all the feedback emails I received so far. Apparently, I hit a nerve with that article, and I appreciate all the comments on it that I got so far
Eric

[UKRuss]

Hey Eric! If I had good songwriting skills...I'd be making money out of this game LOL!

So, thanks for the tips, I shall keep trying and one day...one day I'll write the new Bohemian Rhapsody or even better the new, globally accepted version of "Happy Birthday", the old ones getting tired IMHO;)

...Now that would be a money spinner.

[rmuscat]

Eric ... i liked your article. I haven't seen anything about which someone might get offended though as it was all IMHO very true.

Thanks to your article (and some thoughts which had been stirring at the back of my mind about the topic) i will now start allowing those 15/20m of structured noodling where i come up with stuff which hopefully help my songwriting skills.

Have to keep in mind some points though to myself. Example
- a song has a structure. so i have to think of that.
- my major point of failures - the movement of progressions/melodies from one section to the next through the structure.
- documenting anything i write. There are rhythms, or arpeggios, melodies etc!! They take time if you transcribe (and if like me someone is crappy at writing this stuff down it takes time off the actual writing) and i'm not very keen on recording them (for some wierd reason).

anyway my rambling thoughts after reading your article.

Good job btw

[EricV]

Thanks to both of you for the feedback.

Regarding "offensive" comments... I was worried that some people might feel offended if they read the article and recognized themselves, being described there ( like "Hey, that´s what I have been doing... what´s wrong with that, huh ?!?" )

And I totally agree that you should transcribe and archive anything you write, either by writing it out ( notation / TAB ), using Powertab ( which is a great resource for that, even though it won´t really allow you to document drum beats etc. ), or recording it.
Many of my songs ended up being combinations of older parts I had come up with... like "OK, that chord progression that I came up with back then... and hey, that melody I wrote last summer works great over it"
And I know I am not the only one who does that
Thanks again
Eric

[Wyll_Watts]

Eric,

It was really great to see an article on songwriting. I followed the typical pattern of working almost solely on chops when I was young but after a few years I finally joined a band. It was then that I realized, "hey, I only use those super-shred solos like twice a night, what about the riffs, what about more than just cover songs?" After that my perspective changed. I still worked on chops, but most of my energy was placed in writing whole songs or at least chunks of songs that might be used later. Today, my role in bands is almost always vocals and rhythm. I still like to shred sometimes, but I find more satisfaction in crafting a brutal death metal tune or the driving acoustic force of bluegrass. So, I hope your article will inspire others to find out just how much fun songwriting can be, and how rewarding, sometimes more so than learning an impossible shred lick.

Wyll

[fader198]

I loved the article and I agreed wholeheartedly. Chops should be the icing on the cake instead of vice versa IMO. Most of the stuff I write is pretty thrashy and kind of technical I guess. That being said, the songs can be technical and very chop oriented but I think it is important for them to have a smooth flow. Generally the riff starts out real simple and as I get comfortable with I naturally add embellishments and such. So I think even the most technical music started out in a very simple form to begin with.

[Mateo150]

If people could post songs if they want to, with a little explanation of what they did, the general mental process they went through, that would be cool. I never really though about song-writing too much, think I'll get to it. Hmm... why I like the songs I do... answer- Stevie Wonder's Sir Duke.

[Wyll_Watts]

After reading Eric's song writing article again I decided to whip up a power tab and some comentary that will show a real life example of one approach to writing a song. So I picked up the trusty baritone guitar and started messing around with some trem picking through chords. This sort of trem picking is common in death and black metal. Pretty soon I came up with a simple little trem picked melody. Section A in the powertab file shows this simple little two bar idea. Then I play through it a few times and try to imagine variations or what it might lead into. The sound of the first idea reminds me of the meloncholy sound of "Viking Metal," an interesting blend of black and death. So I decide to go in that stylistic direction. I play around with a few ideas until I come up with two more ways to end the intial idea. Section B shows this expanded version of the trem riff, and I think it has that cool strong but kinda depressed feel typical of the style. Well, that riff is melodic but it doesn't have alot of meaty impact to it, so I decided to add a second guitar behind it laying down a heavy progression. I started with power chords then varied the voicings just a tad until I had the progression in Section C. I'm happy with these riffs right now, so I start thinking of what might come next. I really like the feel tonal feel of that first part and want to continue it in a varied form, but this time with both guitars punching it out in a very thin and haunting way. So I take the general idea and turn it into a single note downpicked riff that's kinda thrashy. In my mind I can hear the bas guitar pushed up in the mix along with a healthy dose of kick drum to hold down the bottom end while the guitars are thinned out some here. I'd probably sing a verse section in a high black metal style here. Section D shows this riff. Next, I think I want a good simple but solid progression to sing the chorus over. Most likely I'd double track the vocals here, one lower death grown and the other a high melodic singing. Singing a high melody takes alot of concentration for me, so if I wanted to do it live I don't want to make this section too complicated. So I play around with some of the chords I used before and come up with Section E. Now, I want a little space in the next riff something chunky that the last growl can carry over onto. For now I added a sort of cliche E5 thing followed by a little trem picking. This part varies the pace of the song, and is Section F. I want this riff to carry over smoothly so I come up with a filled out variation in Section G that has some simple but cool sounding trem picking. This whole time, in the back of my head I've had an idea for a spooky little interlude that I could whisper or low growl a poetic passage over. So I work on that next, palm muting some chord shapes that at first give a 3/4 over 4/4 feel but always resolve that in the second bar, sound pretty good for now, see section H. So now I have a handfull of ideas that I can link together to get a song skeleton. But wait, I don't want to just jump right into that first riff, I want a erie little clean passage at the begining to set the mood. So I add that (using some chord shapes from the interlude you might notice) and then build the song structure. At this point I have a very rough idea for a song, section I. From this point I have a rough idea of where the song is going so I can start adding and subtracting things. What I will most likely do, is look at where I can add harmony and melodic diversity, what sections are the weakest and how can I improve them, start writing vocal ideas and bouncing ideas off of my band members. Then I'd cut a rough demo and start working on some actual vocals etc etc.. The song skeleton took me about 45 minutes, turning it into a real song could take anywhere from two days to a month. Well, I hope this may have given some clues to those out there who want to get into song writing. This is one method I use, there are many others. What I'd really like beginers to notice though is that these ideas are not really that complicated, they don't require advanced shred technique (getting a smooth feel to trem picking might take some practice though..) but it still sounds pretty good for a rough idea. So you don't have to use every lick in your collection, string skipping, and tapping to write something decent. Those techniques may come into play later in this song, I've incorporated such things into riffs before, but they'll only show up if it sounds good, if it doesn't, there are pleanty of low tech riffs that sound great. That's it for now, feel free to coment and question as usual.

Wyll

[EricV]

Wyll
This indeed is a very interesting example, and thanks a lot for sharing it. It sums up part of what I tried to say in my article. You focus on a basic idea, keep it repeating, variate it and elaborate on it.
That was one of the ideas... to not try to offer something new every other bar, but stick to a good, simple melody and let it "sink in", let it speak. Man, I used to write songs where there was hardly any structure. Riff after riff, melody after melody. I could have turned that one song into 20 other songs,.
I played it to a friend of mine, a drummer, and he was like "TOO MUCH in here, where is the melody ?"
The next day, I approached the song again, holding back, trying to let the melody "sink in" ( hope the term makes sense ), which I figured is something that sometimes it´s tough especially for guitar players. =)
And you gave a really good example of that. Thanks for sharing !
Eric

[Koala]

YO Eric, just felt like dropping by and dropping a note. Things have been crazy for me, with the getting married, and running against time to move to another country, but I just took a few minutes off to read through your article. Its good, and it´s even better that it was written by you, as your articles really carry lots of weight on many or most of the members. If you asked me youve just uploaded the yang to all the great ying articles youve written.
As usual, fantastic useful stuff man, (and it felt like the good ol days to see a fresh vandenberg article!).
Congrats man, and keep changin lives!

Talk to ya soon,

[fortymile]

where is the article?

[fortymile]

ah found it. very nice indeed. songwriting and shredding are two completely different things, but with a litle bit of focused effort, there's no reason that a player must embody only one or the other. t'was a nice read...

[Exdeath]

Nice article Eric!

Been working (or at least trying to) on my songwriting skills for quite some time now and have yet to see any major results. Got soem nice ideas, occasionally, but then sooner or later I´m stuck. Best remedy is probably to get together with other people and bounce ideas of off each other or look up songs that´s similiar and analyze how they went on and try to do something similiar (see I got the tools, I just don´t use them ;)).

I´m into a band that are really good songwriters in my mind. Dream Theater of course but also Pink Floyd. The Floyd are a bit underrated in this sense I think because they don´t seem to use very "technical" songwriting methods but they are truly great and 9/10 guitarists will probably agree that Gilmour is one mighty lead guitarist, without necessarely (spelling?) having killer chops.

All in all, crap aside, good article and I hope it can enlighten others that constantly experience the "writing block". And I also hope that my own writing skills will improve somehow someday, that´s what Ibreathe is for ;)

Cheers!

[EricV]

Fxdeath ( and all the others, too ! )
Thanks a lot for your comments, I do appreciate.
Pink Floyd.. great band. I love the "The Wall" album to death, not only because of Gilmour´s leads ( he indeed is a wonderful player... extremely melodic and tasteful ). One of my fave PF-songs is rather recent, "High Hopes" of the "Division Bell" album. Also, I always get goosebumps when I hear the first 1 or 2 minutes of "Coming Back To Life". The rest of the song is nice, but that intro... the clean solo and Dave´s vocals and lyrics... beautiful.

I am sure you´ll end up getting more into songwriting, and liking the results more. Don´t rely on ibreathe too much though... I strongly believe that, just like when it comes to songwriting, ( and many other subjects ), the best learning experience is to try over and over, learning-by-doing style.
There might be some great guides on theory and songwriting, but I believe that it should best be learnt that way... after all, it´s really a quite personal thing. How you approach it, what you write about, how much you try to "get into" the song ( as in "getting emotionally involved ) etc. )
Instructionals on it can give you a starting points, some strategies to try out, some inspiration that might help to get out of a rut or explore new fields, but I believe that in the end, it comes down to doing it as much as possible.
But I am pretty certain you knew that anyway =)
Thanks again
Eric

NP: John Petrucci - Suspended Animation

[Exdeath]

Yeah, the entire Division Bell album is in fact really really nice. I spin it alot these days. As for relying on Ibreathe... I try to be as dependent as I can but Ibreathe is truly great for bouncing ideas and to get a new perspective on things. It´s always nice to get an outsider´s view on things as well.

Also, I´d like to share some tips regarding songwriting I got on a songwriting-clinic I went to some six months or so. We started out by meditating (wich was really wierd), I don´t quite know why we did it. I don´t even think it had any use. The guy talked a lot about finding the child in yourself, we all felt kinda trippy att that moment, any way...
The main tip that he kept repeating was not to judge the ideas before hand.
He told us to brainstorm and write down EVERY single idea until we fell apart and THEN start weeding things out. Sorting out what´s good and maybe even categorize the different ideas to your own liking (like choruses, interludes, melodies, whatever).

Another neat Idea he gave us was to draw a big notation staff (is that the right word for it?) and hang it on the wall. Then, whenever you where stuck melody-wise or just plain stuck, you could throw some balls or preferably something that would stick to it and see what notes you get from it. Do some arranging and polishing and you may end up with a nice melody or at least some inspiration.

I know I´m probably rambling on about nonsense or something Eric already covered in his article but I´m really tired right now...

[Los Boleros]

Yeah, yeah, all that is very nice but,...................................


first check out my Intense Solo! = )

Los Boleros shredding (http://losboleros.net/images/devil2.JPG)

[rmuscat]

.... this is turning MUCH harder than expected all that instrumental music. Getting to riffs and chords ok ... making them simple enough for someone to sing over is hard. All that guitar instrumental music burnt a bunch of neurons out of my brain (besides killing my hearing) i guess.

how does a drum/rhythm machine help?

[fortymile]

eh?

[rmuscat]

LMAO ... ok ok sorry about that ...

i tried to write some stuff down. i just got to a bunch of riffs or chord progressions, no real structure. no fast way to write them down and look at them visually. I can't think of a vocal line over that stuff (thats probably coz i can't sing when playing OR changes are too fast to allow singing).

and i was wondering if a drum machine helps in putting a structure to the song etc...

[EricV]

LMAO ... ok ok sorry about that ...

i tried to write some stuff down. i just got to a bunch of riffs or chord progressions, no real structure. no fast way to write them down and look at them visually. I can't think of a vocal line over that stuff (thats probably coz i can't sing when playing OR changes are too fast to allow singing).

and i was wondering if a drum machine helps in putting a structure to the song etc...
OK, let´s see. First of all, I think I am gonna try working on an article about my "Hidden Creek" CD, just as Mateo suggested. I could try to focus on both some licks and the songwriting aspects... how I came up with stuff.
But regarding your questions:
A drumcomputer sure can help with the structure of a song ( when you´re writing it ). However, I´d use it even earlier: to record a simple backing of what you have so far.
You could approach it this way ( I have done so several times ):
- Once you have a good riff or chord structure, create a beat fitting to it ( tempo-wise, and dynamic-wise... something relaxed and laid back for a ballad, something faster and more powerful for uptempo riffs etc. )
- Then, record that drumbeat into your computer
- Record yourself playing the chords or riff over it
- Now, use what you recorded there as a backing track and play over it. Try to find a theme, a melody. Something simple, maybe.
- Play that a few times over the backing, try tovariate it until you like it.
- Try also to come up with more parts, as many as you need and want ( i.e. Pre-Chorus, chorus, solo-part etc. )

You can later edit the drums to make them more...sophisticated, adding fills and such. At first, a simple version will do.
This is a more musical way to approach song-writing, and I have done so many times. The drum-computer ( well, in my case it´s a sequencer ) has helped me TREMENDOUSLY to write songs.
Sitting there with a piece of paper and your guitar, trying to come up with a melody to fit over your chords is nice, but I think that a basic backing of what you have so far can help a lot to find the other parts and melodies.
I guess I should get started on the article then =)
Hope this helps
Eric

[rmuscat]

hmm. it all makes sense. i'll see where i get to.

i think this takes a level of self-discipline.

thanks btw...

[EricV]

Well,I am not sure whether you wanna FORCE yourself to finish that song. See, sometimes, I write a whole song in about an hour, sometimes it takes weeks. The latter happens when I come up with a nice melody or riff or chord progression, and then can´t find a part that fits to it.
I kinda store the part I came up with ( either by recording it quickly or by just memorizing it ), and then, maybe a few days or even weeks later, I write something else, and I think "Hey, this might sound great with that part I wrote a while ago..."

"You Complete Me" was written within an hour, while "Angel" and "Dreaming..." were started in like 98, and completed years later. Simply because I didnt force myself to come up with something just to get the song done... instead, I stopped and added something to it way later
Eric

[JohnJumper]

Eric - after reading your article I spent a couple of hours working on a new composition! Its been a couple of months since I worked on recording...You are an inspiration! I really enjoyed that article.

I assume that when you talk about a song you don't really mean that it has to include lyrics. I only ever record instrumental compositions because I am not really into writting lyrics and am really not very good at it.

I tend to be a chord progression first composer. I like to get a simple drum track down and then mess with a keyboard to get some interesting chords down and then lay some guitar melody over that. After I have a general composition going I will go back through and re-work drum tracks and replace sections of the lead guitar where I am wasting time noodling around.

Simply because I didnt force myself to come up with something just to get the song done... instead, I stopped and added something to it way laterThat is how I like to work but I have a lot of little 37 second recordings that I have never gone back to. Or...I go back to them later and don't really like them. Unfortunatly, after years of trying to do this I probably have less than an hour of recorded music that I really think is any good.

That idea of taking a theme and making variations it great. It sounds very much like classical compositions that make use of theme and variation.

I read or heard an interview with Steve Vai (maybe on the "Alien Love Secrets" DVD) where he said he comes up with melodies all the time and either writes them down or puts them to tape for later. Then when he is in the studio he sifts through them and sees if he can pull a whole piece out of the little bits.

[JohnJumper]

If people could post songs if they want to, with a little explanation of what they did, the general mental process they went through, that would be cool.
I love to post my stuff...Here is the one I started working on after reading Eric's article...(the title is just a lame working one)...

I started with a real straight beat on the drums and added the keyboard chord progression using some C-Lydian sounding stuff moving to C-Dorian and finally to C-Ionian. Then I just started jamming over the chords while I recorded it.

I went back an listened to the jam and found the main theme in there that I had just improvised. I went back an learned that main theme which took me a while (since I had just improvised it) and recorded this first version with a couple of lead parts:

http://www.jumpermusic.com/SoYouWantToPlayGuitar.mp3

I then went back in an modified the lead, added some better drums and added the theme in the Ionian section so it has repeated 3 times now. This version just kind of ends...

http://www.jumpermusic.com/SoYouWantToPlayGuitar2.mp3

I am still working on it ... I am working on what to do next...

[rmuscat]

Well,I am not sure whether you wanna FORCE yourself to finish that song. See, sometimes, I write a whole song in about an hour, sometimes it takes weeks. The latter happens when I come up with a nice melody or riff or chord progression, and then can´t find a part that fits to it.
I kinda store the part I came up with ( either by recording it quickly or by just memorizing it ), and then, maybe a few days or even weeks later, I write something else, and I think "Hey, this might sound great with that part I wrote a while ago..."

"You Complete Me" was written within an hour, while "Angel" and "Dreaming..." were started in like 98, and completed years later. Simply because I didnt force myself to come up with something just to get the song done... instead, I stopped and added something to it way later
Eric

thanks for taking the time to explain that to me.

and Yes i completely agree with you. Sometimes its better not to complete. So if its written or stored somewhere for future reference you can get back to it anytime. In this case since i'm still a rookie in this obviously i wanted to push it as far as i could.

I fiddled around with a software drum machine as you said. And it definitely helps. Especially in looking in at details. e.g. When to allow pauses, moving from one part to another etc ... this is fun and educational :D too bad i slowed down on "normal" practicing but this can be taken as a form of practice too.

I'll try to get my hands on some drum machine manual now, maybe i get a list of beats which can be programmed in. Would be a good idea to lay down some backing tracks (for practice/jamming) if i find the time.

thanks again!

[Mateo150]

Cool John, like that sound a lot, nice bend tone and all...very majestic and ummm... "floaty" for lack of a better word that my dumb brain can't recall right now. the theme variation approach I like a lot, simple melody then compose it, run with it. Taking an idea and developling it, like when you have to write an essay, the teacher always says take one idea and really develop it. When you try to add too much, it turns out bad.

Eric, glad to hear that your actually gonna humor my idea, I really look forward to it. Its one thing to hear the explanation in music theory language, its another thing completely to hear the experiential side of it, the side that happened before all the labeling began.

Rob, I'm not a good songwriter, but I write really really corny songs. But then again, I like corny songs. They are usually very very simple, often 2 chords with a third chord for a bridge or something structure like that. Songs I write playing with other people are much, much better than the ones I write by myself. I'll try to upload a seminar file I have that goes into group writing a bit. I'll put it up in the cafe.

[rmuscat]

i have another question (yet!) about composition.

Where do you go with "practicing" composition? Does it lead and force your into one style. Is is possible to compose freely without the bounds of "style" e.g. rock/jazz/classic/etc/etc

Can you "practice" composition without sticking to one style? If possible is Allowing yourself free roaming across the styles ok?

does my question make any sense or it needs rewording?

[EricV]

Hey there

Your question actually does make sense, and I do believe I understand what you are asking.
I do think that you should try to write in whatever style you are interested in. Sure, writing a three chord popsong might be easier than writing a 7 minute prog rock tune with 8 different time signatures, but I do believe that if you are interested in it, you can practice writing songs in different styles.
I would recommend to stick to the styles you feel comfortable with, styles you like. So if you have never really listened to a lot of prog or jazz, I wouldn´t recommend trying that,e ven though you know some "pointers" regarding cliches of that style.
I did a certain experiment with some of my students. I gave them a basic three-chord progression with a simple melody over it, and then told them to turn that into a full song, in at least two different styles they like. This was a long-term project, nothing like "YOu have one week..."
So one of them brought back a fast punk song and a metal-style song, the next brought a funky tune and a poppy tune, all of them based on the three chords and the melody.
They took certain "style elements" and put those in, and the results were indeed kinda cool.
Now, I do think that you should write whatever you like, and see what it turns into. So if you start out and it turns into a rather complicated, long prog-tune, well, then that´s what it´s gonna be, as long as you like it. Know what I mean ?
Sorry for plugging Steve Morse again, but I do believe that he didn´t care too much abotu picking a certain style for a tune, and just went and wrote whatever came to his mind. Sometimes, it turned into a country-type tune ( like "The Bash" or "Going To Town" ), sometimes it was a Mahavishnu type fusion-ballad ( such as "Day 444" or "Night Meets Light" ), and sometimes it was a rock-song with a twist ( like "Simple Simon" or "The Introduction" )
So saying that, what I said before in this post ( trying to write songs in different styles ) might seem too "workshop-like", too "forced", but then again, I do believe it´s a good learnign experience to analyze what makes a tune jazzy, or how some of those prog tunes are constructed or whatever.
So that´s kinda like practicing. Once you have an actual, cool idea, you can still go ahead and just write and keep building it, and see what it turns into. But maybe you´ll have some extra ideas or "textures" in your vocabulary that you can use to embellish an idea better, or put a good melody or chord proggie into an appropiate context.
Does this make sense ?
Of course, you could also just go ahead and write whatever comes to mind, whatever sounds good to you, but you asked about "practicing songwriting", and that is ONE thing you can do to develop it.
Eric

[rmuscat]

hey eric thanks a bunch!

talking of steve morse i am remember his major impacts albums ... great proof of his abilities ... he assimilated and replicates all those songwriting skills available in "other" players. He can take the hendrix style in no time etc ....

incredible project IMHO


as for my questions thanks for answering. I came up to it after i took up the acoustic guitar and intended really to entertain myself playing and attempted to fiddle about some stuff. Coming up with things. But i couldn't be happy with what was coming out. I keep thinking of acoustic songs ala "Tears in the Rain", "Song for George" etc and i can't even get to anything basic which sounds ok. I started suspecting i'm limiting myself to always the same chords without knowing (I enjoy trying to find cool voicings and chords but end up with the same feel, yet sometimes i keep discovering i move from Asus2 to C all the time for example).

i'll keep working on it, but spending time trying to have fun and not coming up with anything which you like is depressing.

Two main problems i see in my approach.
1. Comparing the quality of what i come up with, with the "pro" stuff.
2. My creativity is limited, even though i listen to different styles and stuff. Its like my ears are far away from my brain/creative side. As if they evolved at different rates.

bah ... thanks again for your time!!!

[Exdeath]

Hey again!

Just recently a very short proggy-feeling kinda intro and after thinking about it fitted quite well as an example in here how people go about in their songwriting procedures. I have no powertab of it, only guitar pro, so I´ll set up a small html page on a host and I´ll post it like Wyll Watts did with his song earlier on.

In a few minutes then... look for my edit :P

EDIT:

Well here it is. Now remember this is not in any way rocket science stuff. And some of you may already have noticed this stuff on your own. I´m just sharing in case it could give others a opportunity to open up their view on songwriting (and somewhat orchestration/arranging?).

http://www.geocities.com/karhuband/song/swe.html

Thoughts? Q´s?

P.s... excuse my misspellings at the page, it was done very quickly..

[rmuscat]

last one i promise ... and i won't utter another single question about about composition... for the coming uhm ... year, 6 months, well make it a month ...

do you "hear it" before you play it, or just keep fiddling around until you're happy with it. I know its personal and won't work the same with everyone, i'm trying to get a feel of how people tackle the thing.

i can't stop thinking about the cool albums (garsed, gilbert etc) everything seems to fit nicely as if the whole process was done hand in hand (melody, chords, changes, "production" issues) as if the thing was never in a "work in progress" stage.

thanks :p :rolleyes:

*bob meditates on patience*

[mattblack850]

*bob meditates on patience*

I think that should be:-

Bob mediates on patients!!!!:D :D