picking with upstroke or downstroke?

[rafapak]

Hallo everybody!

I would like to ask you a question.
The idea of alternate picking is to avoid playing according to prearranged patterns. My understanding of this is that you are supposed to be able to play the same fragment no matter if you start it with upstroke or downstroke.
When I practice any exercise I play it first beginning with an upstroke and after I finish I play the same exercise again beginning with a downstroke.
Do you think this is ok ?
Well, I get suspicious because in all the materials I have they suggest that you play all the exercises beginning with downstroke. YOu know, they always put those symbols of upstroke and downstroke at the beginning of the tabulature and there are all exercises beginning with a downstroke. I bought Stetina's book and there are more than hundered exercises and all begin with a downstroke.
Is this only the matter of convention that they suggest you begin an exercise with a downstroke?
Do they imply that although symbols show that you should start with a downstroke, there is no problem is you practice every exercise beginning with an upstroke?

Sorry for mistakes but please remember that I learn ~English as a foreign language so it is not my first native language.

[Mateo150]

what your doing sounds good to me.

[satch_master]

man dont worry 2 much. i just play whatever, doesnt have to be exact up down up. marty friedman is a monster guitarist and he even says he doesnt know what the hell hes doing, he says each picking lick or situation for him is completely different.

[wild_child]

Most licks start with a downstroke because it is the natural thing to do, you wouldn't really start with an upstroke unless you had a particular reason.

However, it is a good idea to practice any alternate picking lick starting with both an upstroke and a downstroke, especially if they cover several strings. This is because you'll be practacing inside and outside picking (inside = striking the bottom of the lower string and top of the higher string; outside = striking the top of the lower string and the bottom of the higher string) during alternate picking. A lot of people tend to find one more challenging than the other, so its a useful thing to work on and be aware of.

Reasons for starting with an upstroke might include time keeping purposes (when your picking is disturbed by a rest and so you skip a motion in the alternate picking) or more commonly for the purpose of economy or sweep techniques where the following note is on a lower string.

To be honest, its not something you should need to consciously think about while playing (like satch_master says) however to get to this stage involves practice and therefore specific attention until it becomes your right hand's subconscious reaction.

[rafapak]

Most licks start with a downstroke because it is the natural thing to do, you wouldn't really start with an upstroke unless you had a particular reason.

However, it is a good idea to practice any alternate picking lick starting with both an upstroke and a downstroke, especially if they cover several strings. This is because you'll be practacing inside and outside picking (inside = striking the bottom of the lower string and top of the higher string; outside = striking the top of the lower string and the bottom of the higher string) during alternate picking. A lot of people tend to find one more challenging than the other, so its a useful thing to work on and be aware of.

Reasons for starting with an upstroke might include time keeping purposes (when your picking is disturbed by a rest and so you skip a motion in the alternate picking) or more commonly for the purpose of economy or sweep techniques where the following note is on a lower string.

To be honest, its not something you should need to consciously think about while playing (like satch_master says) however to get to this stage involves practice and therefore specific attention until it becomes your right hand's subconscious reaction.

thanks for reply
I underlined fragment the meaning of which I am not sure of. Do you imply that when you start picking with an upstroke you encounter some deficiency in motion? Well, I must agree that when I start with an upstroke the motion of my hand seems kind of disturbed. My right hand seems to " wander " and as a result timing is distorted . I don't experience the same deficiency when I start with a downstroke. Well, probably it has to do with natural predisposition of the hand to go down due to gravitation or something. No I am not kidding. Somebody told me the other day that it is probably more natural for your hand to go down rather than up ( gravitation ). So , summing up, do you think that a skip in motion when you start picking with an upstroke might be related to natural tendency for your hand to go down rather than up?

I ask those questions because I want to make sure if starting playing with an upstroke makes sense and leads you to progress or it is just impossible to make any progress when you start picking with an upstroke.



please, write comments
rafal

[Bizarro]

"The idea of alternate picking is to avoid playing according to prearranged patterns."

I don't agree with that assumption. Alternate picking is a basic technique of the guitar that is also an efficient way to play notes in rapid succession :)

There's a difference between practice and performance. Practice your techniques to master them. In a performance you worry about the actual music, not the mechanics behind each technique.

A great practice tool is to play starting with an upstroke. Pick 3 notes, up-down-up on one string, rest, and repeat, playing along with a metronome. This builds up that consistency so it'll sound just like when you do down-up-down. You can make progress in this area but it will take some effort. BTW, Eric Vandenberg wrote a great article on picking here on ibreathe.

When I perform I use many picking techniques: economy, alternate, hybrid, fingerstyle, and I don't even think about it. I put in the practice time, so when I need to use it my fingers just do what they are supposed to do!

Good luck! :)

[Arpetude]

hey there,

i'm no legend or anything but here's what i think

well if you alt. pick on ONE STRING - it does not matter what stroke you start on.

but say you have instructional shred dvds that contain licks based on MUTLIPLE ADJECENT STRINGS then starting on a different stroke will initially feel different.

as a reference i can play most licks of the dvds i own with starting either up or down STROKE. honetly i does not really matter. it has nothing to do with gravity.:eek:

its more 'how many occurences there are of inside/outside of the string'. becuase if you start on the opposite stroke then the number of outside would be inside and vice versa.

but when it comes to a classical piece (lets take eugenes trick bag as it's quite recognisable).

if someone told me 'play the distorted bit starting with an up-stroke' i WOULD have trouble because that is an intricate piece to play. in fact i just tried it right now and im sloppy.

same for paganinis 5th caprice the WHOLE THING would feel just plain wierd starting it on a different stroke.

thats my take. i hope it made sense:)

[wild_child]

thanks for reply
I underlined fragment the meaning of which I am not sure of. Do you imply that when you start picking with an upstroke you encounter some deficiency in motion?

what i meant was to play a passage of, for example, 16th notes, and then encounter a 16th rest, followed by more 16th notes. In that situation, you might want to do a stroke in 'mid air' and if the rest happens to fall on a note that would have been a downstroke, you are effectively starting the contunuation of the lick on an upstroke. It would be most useful at the start of a bar, because given the continuation of notes of the same value, you'd be starting all of the next bars on a downstroke, rather than an upstroke.

There should be no deficiency in motion when starting with an upstroke however, if practiced it should be equally as efficient as starting with a down stroke.

Arpetude, i also tried playing that bit of eugene's trickbag starting with an upstroke and i had great difficulty playing it too, all of my muscle memory for it went totally to pot. Time to get practacing!

[Arpetude]

Arpetude, i also tried playing that bit of eugene's trickbag starting with an upstroke and i had great difficulty playing it too, all of my muscle memory for it went totally to pot. Time to get practacing!lol.:)

yeah totally in the situation of hard virtuoso pieces its practically suicidal to start on a different stroke.

i personally ain't gonna practice that piece starting with an up-stroke. i don't think i have the time to waste.:cool:

[Mateo150]

I think its a good idea to be able to play anything starting with an upstroke or downstroke. Sometimes you see people play who can't really upstroke well because they downstroke most of the time. They usually have a tough time with funkier rhythms and often can't get the same sound. A good case in point are some of Guni's examples on "A mouthful of rhythm". If you don't alternate pick those, its doesn't sound right, and most of those examples are set up so that the passage begins each time around on the other stroke. Classical type pieces i'm not so sure about, since you play these exactly the same all the time, But it seems like one should be comfortable enough to be able to play a piece with an up or downstroke. If you can do this, chances are your really comfortable playing that particular piece of music. If you can't, chances are that you still make some errors, just my take.

[Arpetude]

for the most part. yes

but me and wild child find eugenes trick bag to fall to pieces with an upstroke.
i can play it with no mistakes starting on a down.

i feel that the part where you do 'down-up' on E string then 'down' on b string then 'up' on the e-string with the octave leaps(anyone who can play this piece will know what i am on about).

on that part i think it would be near impossible to do it starting on an up-stroke because you would be working 'inside' each time making it significantly slower.

IMO

thoughts?

can anyone play that particular bit starting on an upstroke?

[rafapak]

thanks for replies guys
some of you mentioned eugene trick bag, I don`t know what is this. could you let me know, please?

[Arpetude]

it's a piece by steve vai.


off one of his earlier albums. if you watch the film 'crossroads' its the solo that the karate kid beats jack butler(played by steve vai). the 1980s crossroads NOT the britney spears one!

the piece is short (about a minute) but is very technical and quite hard to pull of. basically put it could not be played any faster than vai plays it. it is steve vais 'remix' of paganin's fifth caprice (old dead violin dude that people thought he was the devil cause he was so ridiculously fast).

if you have kazza or other file sharing websites that solo is always ripped. just type in 'crossroads duel' or something along those lines.

[Mateo150]

[QUOTE=Arpetude]

the piece is short (about a minute) but is very technical and quite hard to pull of. basically put it could not be played any faster than vai plays it. it is steve vais 'remix' of paganin's fifth caprice (old dead violin dude that people thought he was the devil cause he was so ridiculously fast).

QUOTE]

Actually, I think Paganini was regarded in a demonic light because he wore all black all the time. His stage antics were boarish for his era. And he did play fast, really fast, which I think might have been considered bad taste back then. Basically he was the very first "rock star" of the dark side, the first incarnation of Ozzy.

[Arpetude]

i wouldn't know i was not around at the time;)


i rely on internet sources/books which more or less state that he was considered demonic due to his virtuosity and had little to do with image. he actually had to show letters he wrote home to his parents to prove that he had human parents.

he invented and mastered techniques for the violin in order for him to play ridiculously fast (like as fast as yngwie - more or less the FIRST person to play that fast but 300 years ago) but with amazing melody etc.

i really don't know anything about the violin but he may have invented sweep Bowing (!) on it. cause i think alot of composers back then did not rip out arpeggios at HIGH SPEED like paganini.

theres tons of articals on this website. mike campise has a caprice and i'm sure that eric v mentions him as the first shredder. unfortunetly so little is known about him.

[Mateo150]

Thats what I was told in my music history class. But professors can be wrong.

[EricV]

I´ll try to add a few things about Paganini. Of course, my information is from other sources as well, so we might never know what Paganini was like etc. However, based on some documentation from that time...

- He was actually considered demonic mainly because, when he was about to pass away, he was visited by a priest. Paganini was never too fond of the catholic church ( or church in general ), so when that priest tried to have him pray, and give him the sacraments ( I guess thats the correct term ), Paganini tried to scare him away by threatening to use his "demonic powers" on him.
The priest fled. It was most likely just a joke by Paganini, but this really didn´t add to his reputation after he passed.
He was not allowed to be buried on a catholic cementary, yet it was what he had wished for.His son tried to accomplish this, but it took ( I believe ) about 40 years until Nicolo was eventually buried on a real cementary... and the main reason why it was eventually permitted was that his son had to give most of his heritage from his father to the church to convince them. So even though Paganini had spent his life saving money, never really allowing himself true luxury ( other than his house ), his son suddenly went back to poverty to get his father buried on a real cemetary.
His corpse was stored in many different places until he was eventually buried, and I am sure that was yet another thing that added to his "demonic image"

Also, of course, his virtuosity was reason for people to gossip... we have to remember the times he lived in. There were many rumors about him. One was that he had killed a lover, and therefor had to spent years in prison, where he had time to perfect his skills ( one rumor even said he made a deal with Satan while in prison... another said that he took the intestine from the lover he killed and made his G_string from it )

Paganini had a certain... well... presence that sure was a bit mysterious. His violin-skills were out of this world back then ( even now, some people believe he is the best who ever lived ), and he sure had some showmanship going on... for example, during a performance, he ripped of 3 strings, and continued to play some amazing stuff on the G-string ( even turned that into a song ).
He challenged some composers of that time to compose stuff he couldnt play. One of them hated Paganini, and wrote something extremely difficult. Not only did Paganini play it right away, he even turned the page upside down and played it THAT WAY.
I am sure that some of the people that didnt like him started some more rumors. And the fact that he really wasn´t a very religious guy sure didnt help.
Anyway, just wanted to add that. I got that information out of some Paganini-biographies and accounts of people who saw him. Reading accounts of what happened to his corpse after he had passed away, and about how hard it was for his son to get him buried is rather sad
Eric

[Thorsten]

Reminds me that I still have your awesome Paganini movie DVD, Eric! ;) That Paganini dude sure was one hell of a mofo, he definitely rocked! :D

On the subject: Using up or downstrockes really is just a matter of your own preferences. I´d suggest to try out any possible picking pattern for a lick and then take what works and sounds best to you.

TK

[EricV]

Thorsten, I just thought of that Friday or so. It´s been a while since we met up the last time, but don´t worry about that DVD, you can bring it next time you stop by. I´ll also have a "Hidden Creek" CD for you =)
Hope all is well
Eric

[prodigy84]

Here's something I found of him too.

Paganini, Nicolò (1782-1840), Italian composer and violin virtuoso, born in Genoa, where he studied with local musicians. He made his first public appearance as a violinist at the age of 9 and toured several towns in Lombardy (Lombardia) at the age of 13. Until 1813, however, he did not actively pursue the career of a virtuoso performer. He preferred to enjoy himself in romantic liaisons, gambling, and, from 1805 to 1813, in the social pleasures of a position as musical director at the court of Maria Anna Elisa Bacciocchi, princess of Lucca, the sister of Napoleon.

In 1813 Paganini left Lucca and began touring Italy, where his technical ability as a violinist attracted wide attention. He extended his tours to Vienna in 1828 and to Paris and London in 1831. In Paris he met the Hungarian pianist and composer Franz Liszt, who was inspired to develop the techniques of piano playing as Paganini had developed those for the violin. The violinist went into partial retirement in 1834. His playing astonished the listeners of his day, many of whom believed he was in touch with supernatural powers. He could perform complex works using only one of the four strings of the violin, and he played chords of two and three notes, creating the illusion that more than one violin was being played. His own works include 24 caprices for violin solo (1801-07), 8 concertos, and many sonatas.

[Thorsten]

Thorsten, I just thought of that Friday or so. It´s been a while since we met up the last time, but don´t worry about that DVD, you can bring it next time you stop by. I´ll also have a "Hidden Creek" CD for you =)
Hope all is well
Eric

Thanx Eric, everythings great! Today I finished the last lick for the COP album (moderators: I´m not spamming... ;) ) but there´s still a lot to do.

My singer Carsten "Lizard" Schulz is opening for The Scorpions in June so maybe we can meet at one of their concerts (and get backstage passes... :) )

C U soon...
TK

[Mateo150]

Really cool stuff, I liked reading all that biography, its nice to know history. I once saw a TV show, on a pay channel, Showtime maybe... It was a Twilight Zone, type of show about music. In short, guitarist unknowingly makes a Faustian deal to become a great guitarist, and of course this deal goes awry and he seeks to undo the deal, the devil says play this piece of music and the curse will be undone, your life will return to normal, but if you fail, you'll die here now and your soul is mine. Guitarist says fine, no problem, and while he's playing it the strings on his guitar start to break and his fingers bleed but he keeps playing, and all that is happening, the sheet music magically keeps growing (more lines are added). Until finally all the strings break and he collapses. Lots of legend and lore in there, but I think that last little scene was a Pagannini reference, nice to know the inside joke. Man, that Pagannini was a true Italian rebel musician, BTW, who was the Italian musician who said (paraphrase, not exact) "Life is about lust and anyone who says otherwise is a Jackass". Said it during the height of the Church's power and it's rigid moral/sexual rules.

[ProgBG]

Just wanted to add something to the picking thing. I think it's just natural to the human kind to pick downwards. Just imagine when you tap the beat with your foot you tap downwards. On the offbeats your foot goes up. So just the same like picking. Wow and thanx for information 'bout Paganini, very cool.

KAYA BG

[EricV]

Thorsten, awesome, cant wait to hear the album !
And yeah, I´d love to meet at one of those shows and hang out.

Eric